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Prime Minister Narendra Modi lauded the RSS on its centenary celebrations, saying the organisation never displayed any bitterness despite several attacks on it as it continued to work on the principle of nation first.
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00:00Let me raise big questions though that widen the debate from what we heard from Mr. Chari.
00:04What is RSS's role in independent India and indeed in the independent movement?
00:09Is it building the nation or dividing society?
00:12What is the RSS's concept of a Hindu Rashtra?
00:15As I said, the RSS's role in freedom fight, false history.
00:18But what explains the RSS's endurance and its rise today?
00:22Joining me now, Sudhendra Kulkarni, activist and columnist,
00:26someone who was associated with the Vajpayee government particularly closely,
00:30Mridula Mukherjee is historian.
00:32I appreciate both of you joining us.
00:35Let me come to you, Sudhendra Kulkarni.
00:36I've been reading a piece you've just written for Frontline magazine
00:39where you've said the challenge for the RSS is to ensure that it is less exclusionary.
00:45You want to explain what you mean by that?
00:50What I mean by that is that
00:52the Rashtri S.Y.M. Seva Sangh is essentially a Hindu nationalist organization.
01:01But it has to confront the fact that India is multi-religious
01:06and there are non-Hindus in fairly large numbers, especially Muslims.
01:13Now, so far, Muslims have not been part of the mainstream of the RSS
01:19even though in recent years they have established a wing called Muslim Rashtriya Munch.
01:28But that's a marginal organization.
01:33Now, over the years, RSS has been grappling with the Muslim question
01:38in ways that has both positives and negatives.
01:42I would like to highlight the positive aspect because, you know,
01:46we cannot understand the RSS only if we focus on the positives
01:50or only if we focus on the negatives.
01:53The main criticism of the RSS is that it is anti-Muslim.
01:59There is some truth to it, but there is also another side to it.
02:02Over the years, the top leaders of the RSS, including the Sarsangh Chalak,
02:09they have been making efforts to reach out to Muslims.
02:13And this has been going on from the days of Guruji Golwalkar,
02:18the second and the longest serving Sarsangh Chalak of the RSS,
02:23right up to Dr. Mohan Bhagwat now.
02:26Dr. Mohan Bhagwat, as we all know,
02:28has been making efforts to reach out to Muslims.
02:31He's had a series of meetings with Muslim religious social leaders.
02:35Now, going back to Golwalkar, you know,
02:38Golwalkar made some truly revealing statements on Muslims,
02:42which unfortunately the critics are not paying attention to.
02:48I would like to highlight one specific thing.
02:52In 1972, he was interviewed by the legendary editor Khushwan Singh
02:59of the Illustrated Weekly of India.
03:02And Khushwan Singh asked him,
03:04what do you think of the Muslim issue?
03:07Golwalkar says that I am of the firm view
03:10that it is only because of historical reasons
03:13that a certain alienation has arisen between Hindus and Muslims,
03:19for which he says both Hindus and both Muslims and Hindus are responsible.
03:25Further, he said that it is wrong to hold the entire community responsible
03:31for the wrongdoings of some people belonging to that community.
03:37He also said that I am confident
03:40that both Hindutva and Islam can coexist harmoniously in India.
03:46Similarly, Dr. Mohan Bhagwat has recently said
03:50that anyone who says that Islam has no place in India is not a Hindu.
03:55He's called it sin.
03:57It is sin against Hinduism.
03:59So let us take these positive aspects of the RSS,
04:02build on it.
04:03I am a firm proponent of dialogue between the RSS and its critiques,
04:09dialogue between RSS and Muslims,
04:11dialogue between RSS and the Congress.
04:13This alone can unite our society
04:17and overcome the absolutely debilitating divisions
04:23that have taken place in our polity.
04:25We can selectively quote both Golwalkar and Bhagwat.
04:29There are positive aspects
04:30and there are other statements also
04:32that they have made over the years
04:35which are interpreted very differently.
04:37But Vidula Mukhaji, you heard Sudinda Kulkarni
04:39saying that time has come for a dialogue
04:41between the critics of the RSS and the RSS.
04:44How do you respond to that?
04:45Have the left historians in particular
04:47demonized the RSS from day one
04:49and therefore don't look at perhaps
04:51some of the more positive aspects of the RSS's work
04:54in terms of social service during flood relief?
04:57Do they only focus on its anti-Muslim stance
05:01that emerges from time to time?
05:03You know, I am not here as a spokesperson
05:11for any left historians.
05:13You are asking me a concrete question.
05:16I will give you a concrete answer.
05:17Please do.
05:18Yeah.
05:18And, you know, I mean,
05:21this imputing of, you know,
05:23certain notions, etc.
05:24I think let us get away from that.
05:27First question you asked was about
05:29is a dialogue desirable?
05:31Is it possible?
05:32Well, I think in any democratic society,
05:36who can be against the idea of a dialogue?
05:39I think obviously, I mean,
05:41as Indians we would like this society.
05:44It is a plural society.
05:46There are many points of view represented in it.
05:48And if a dialogue can bring about change
05:51and coming together of different sections of society,
05:55I said, who can stand in the way of it?
05:57But the issue is not of certain statements made by certain leaders at different points in time.
06:05As we know, we can, as you just said,
06:07we can quote one statement,
06:09I can quote another,
06:10and we could go on.
06:11The issue is what is happening at the level of practice.
06:16You look at India today,
06:18in which the RSS obviously exercises enormous influence.
06:24And if we do not accept that,
06:26we are just, I think, not being honest over this government
06:30and what is going on in different parts of the country,
06:33is India not getting more and more polarized and divided every day.
06:38The language I read in the newspapers shocks me and pains me.
06:42When I hear the chief minister of UP yesterday in the last three days
06:47issuing the kind of threats he is issuing by name to Muslims,
06:52you know, as a community,
06:54where there is bulldozing going on against the,
06:57you know, law laid down by the Supreme Court.
07:01I mean, what do I do with just pious statements?
07:04That's, look at it from the point of view of somebody who could be a victim
07:08or even somebody who is a scholar or a citizen.
07:12I think we have to go beyond that.
07:14And if we want to go to the period before independence,
07:16since you asked me,
07:18that is it left historians who from the beginning have vilified the RSS,
07:23I'm sorry.
07:24The people who have understood from the beginning
07:28what RSS ideology is and have opposed it,
07:34left historians, leftists,
07:36they were all marginal forces.
07:38Forget them.
07:39It is the Indian National Congress and its foremost leaders.
07:43Bahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal, Nehru, Maulana Azad, Sardar Patel,
07:47you can name it.
07:49All of them knew and opposed the politics and the ideology of the RSS
07:54and the Hindu Mahasabha.
07:56So there was the freedom movement on one side
07:58and Hindu Mahasabha RSS on the other and the Muslim League.
08:02So there were communalists and there were nationalists.
08:04I think if we forget this distinction and of course,
08:08if we forget the whole design of the British from the middle of the 19th century
08:12to divide the people of India along religious lines to perpetuate their rule.
08:17And if we don't see both the communalists, Muslim and Hindu as falling prey to that,
08:23we don't understand Indian history and we don't understand the freedom struggle.
08:27As far as the RSS role in freedom struggle is concerned,
08:32let me spend just half a minute on that since Sheshadriji,
08:34Sheshadriji, Chariji did speak on that.
08:38I think, you know, just by giving examples of Hedgiewar going to jail in 1932,
08:44I mean, in 1930 in the civil disobedience movement,
08:48I mean, we all know these facts.
08:50The fact is that Hedgiewar said RSS will not join the civil disobedience movement.
08:57He left his position as Sarasthan Chalak and said,
09:01I will join not the civil disobedience movement launched by Gandhiji.
09:06I will start as forest Satyagraha.
09:09At the same time, I will also go to jail.
09:12And it was also said, I will go to jail because I will be able to influence the youth who are in that jail.
09:18RSS workers in their individual capacity could join.
09:22Now, tell me, if you are a militant nationalist organization wanting to fight the British,
09:28wanting to unite all Indians, why would you do all this fine-tuning?
09:33You know, we will not act after that.
09:35The Prime Minister, Ms. Mukherjee today said that the RSS participated in the Quit India movement.
09:42He said that the RSS opposed the British.
09:50What can I say?
09:52I mean, there are facts on one side, there are British records on one side,
09:56there are archival records, there are whole political files,
09:59there are evidences.
10:00I mean, historians and others have quoted chapter and verse.
10:04So, the Prime Minister is free to not accept the facts of history.
10:08What can I do about it?
10:10I have my understanding as a historian of history.
10:12It doesn't have to match that of the Prime Minister of India.
10:15He has his opinion.
10:17I have mine.
10:17You know, in a sense, Sudindra Kulkarni is the RSS in a way trying to erase its past.
10:25It's very convenient.
10:26One day you say you're a cultural organization.
10:29One day you say you're charitable.
10:30One day you're saying political.
10:32Today I had Seshadri Chari on my show saying we are not political at all.
10:35I mean, does the RSS also have to come clean on what exactly does the RSS,
10:43what exactly is the RSS then?
10:45If one day you're political, one day you're cultural, one day you're social,
10:49is that also part?
10:50They've got to be more transparent.
10:52They've got to be more accountable.
10:53Politics and political power is at the very heart and the center of the RSS agenda.
11:04There is simply no denying this.
11:07Otherwise, two Pricharaks would not have become Prime Minister.
11:13And even after becoming Prime Minister, they have praised the RSS, both Vajpayeeji and Narendra Modi today.
11:25So that's not an issue we should spend too much time on.
11:30What I would like to clarify, Rajdeep, is that harmony in our society, unity in our society,
11:38national integration is of utmost importance.
11:41And this is where the RSS as the foremost Hindu organization has a responsibility it cannot shy away from.
11:54There is a certain gap between Kathani and Karani.
11:59What it says and what it allows things to happen are two different things.
12:05We all know there are some really positive things, good things that RSS leaders have spoken from time to time about Muslims
12:13and the need for dialogue with Muslims, integration of Muslims on an equal basis.
12:21At the same time, the reality on the ground is quite different.
12:27So that's precisely the point, what's the use of a dialogue in an abstract, in a seminar room,
12:34when you've got the Bajrang Dal, which will then lead campaigns against Muslims in the name of Gaurakshaks,
12:42when you will have bulldozer action that takes place, when you will have the normalization of hate speech.
12:48I mean, it's all very well to say we want a dialogue and then resort to constant vilification, demonization of Muslims.
12:56Rajdeep, this issue is quite complex and it has historical roots.
13:01We cannot either understand or overcome this problem without looking at it in its totality.
13:08Had India not been partitioned on the basis of the poisonous two-nation theory advanced by the Muslim League,
13:15had Pakistan not been Islamized and completely reduced the Hindu community, the Sikh community to second-grade citizens,
13:25had they not promoted Islamic extremism, things in India would have been different
13:30and RSS would not have been so strong as it is today.
13:34And therefore, this issue has to be seen in its totality.
13:37Now, there is no organization, I repeat, there is not a single organization in India,
13:42whether it is the Congress, the Communists or the RSS-BJP, which is faultless.
13:46They all have their sins.
13:49The reason I am advocating dialogue is that the only way to go forward
13:55is to take up what is good in every organization and build on that.
13:59Otherwise, we will go towards civil war.
14:02Okay, your point is taken.
14:03Let me therefore give a final word to you, Mridullah Mukherjee.
14:06You raised your finger.
14:07Here you've got Sudhindra Kulkarni saying, let's take the best of each organization.
14:11Let's not look at the worst.
14:12I mean, as I said, you know, who can disagree with such fine sentiments?
14:22I mean, I can't disagree with that, can I?
14:24It's like apple, what Mormon apple pie or whatever is the phrase.
14:28But I wanted to make a comment on what Mr. Kulkarni said a little earlier about the historical background.
14:33I mean, we are all aware what the Muslim League did, how India got partitioned, what has happened.
14:39But are we to remain trapped in that?
14:43Are we to become victims of what has happened before independence and what Pakistan has done to itself?
14:48We say we are 10 times the GDP of Pakistan.
14:53We are a secular country.
14:54Look at our constitution more than 75 years ago.
14:58We've gone far ahead of what Pakistan is.
15:01Why should we remain trapped in that?
15:03That cannot be a justification for what we are doing to ourselves now.
15:08Why do we want to now become a Hindu Pakistan?
15:12Is that what we want to become?
15:14Is that the future for us?
15:15We don't want to become a Hindu Pakistan, but the fact is the RSS today has huge traction.
15:20The fact is the BJP has huge traction.
15:22What does that suggest in conclusion, Mridula Mukherjee?
15:25Has India changed?
15:26I would, the way I look upon it, the way I assess thing is that from the late 80s onwards, from emergency days when they first came back into respectability, and then from the late 80s with the Ramjanma Bhoomi movement and all that, the RSS at the core of it and BJP as the political kind of representative,
15:53they have ridden a certain course and they have done various things have happened, which have
15:59brought them into prominence in Indian politics.
16:04I do not, however, believe like many people do, many of my colleagues believe, that this
16:10also means that there has been a total transformation, at least of the so-called Hindu mind.
16:16I think that there are vast majority, including among Hindus, who for various reasons have voted for the BJP.
16:26One doesn't vote only on a single issue.
16:28There are so many issues and there are labartis now and doles being given here and this being
16:33happening there.
16:35So, and I think there are large parts of the country where that ideology doesn't hold sway,
16:40where that politics doesn't hold sway.
16:41There are large sections of the people.
16:44Look what happened in the Pakistan movement in 1921.
16:48Punjab, has it bought into this ideology?
16:51Has Tamil Nadu, has Kerala, has Bengal?
16:53It's a question of how you look at it.
16:55If you look at it from the heartlet, you sit in Delhi only, hear what's happening in
17:00UP or Rajasthan or Madhya Pradesh, you get a certain picture.
17:03So, I believe, I believe as a historian that in fact, the impulse of Indian history is in
17:11the direction of diversity, pluralism, secularism and that RSS and its ideology is actually a
17:18diversion from it.
17:20Sudhir, I'll give you 30 seconds.
17:22You know, in order not to get trapped in the past, we should not remain prisoners of the
17:31past.
17:32In order to create a new future for India and for the whole of South Asia, we have to move
17:38towards Hindu-Muslim harmonization and the inevitable other side of it, that is India-Pakistan
17:48normalization.
17:49The time has come when Pakistan has to change, India has to change, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh,
17:56all of us have to come together.
17:58And that is, in fact, it goes to the Akhand Bharat concept.
18:04All those who were opposed to partition of India should now work towards reuniting the
18:10subcontinent.
18:11Sudhir, that's another debate.
18:14That's another debate for another day.
18:18Our focus today was on the RSS, its role.
18:20I'm going to leave it at that.
18:22But I appreciate listening to a variety of viewpoints.
18:25The diversity that we try on this program is the diversity, I hope, that we see on the
18:30streets of India.
18:31It's really the people of India who are the ones who need to embrace that diversity in
18:36the truest sense.
18:37And maybe the RSS needs to tell us how they are going to promote diversity in the truest
18:42sense.
18:42I appreciate my guests joining me on the show tonight.
18:45Okay.
18:46And, come on.
18:46Thank you, Ryan.
18:46Thanks, guys.
18:47Thank you, good morning.
18:47Let's start.
18:49I agree with that.
18:51Alright.
18:52Good morning.
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