- 3 months ago
At India Today Conclave Mumbai, a heated debate unfolded on the RSS as it approaches its centenary. RSS magazine editor Prafulla Ketkar traced the Sangh’s journey from “neglect and contempt” to what he called today’s “acceptance,” describing it as a civilisational force rooted in India’s “spiritual democracy.”
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00:00Ladies and gentlemen, may I welcome first our two guests on the show today.
00:05Prafula Ketkar is editor-organizer, author of 100 years, resolved for selfless service,
00:12the RSS. Prafula Ketkar ji. Also joining me is Tushar Gandhi, activist, author,
00:20and someone who's written extensively on the critique, if I may say so, of the RSS.
00:32Please welcome our two special guests.
00:40Ladies and gentlemen, our next session is here at the India Today Mumbai Conclave,
00:46the RSS Century, Ideology, Identity, and India's Destiny. My two guests joining me
00:52for a bit of a face-off of sorts, Prafula Ketkar, editor-organizer, author of 100 years,
00:58resolved for selfless service, RSS, and Tushar Gandhi, author and activist. Please give them a
01:03big hand, ladies and gentlemen. I want to start with you, Mr. Ketkar. In just a few days from now,
01:10effectively, the RSS will have completed a hundred years on Vijay Dashmi. How would you describe this
01:19century of the RSS? Does what we are seeing now mark the ultimate assertion of cultural nationalism?
01:28Or, as critics point out, does it suggest a sense of a vision of a Hindu Rashtra being,
01:37in a way, created? Is it about a Hindu Rashtra? Is it about cultural nationalism?
01:45Thank you. Thank you, Rajdeep, for having me here. See, I would say this journey is about
01:51first the neglect, then the sort of contempt, then sort of hatred, and then now acceptance.
02:01These have been the phases. First two books, academic books that came up on RSS. That was
02:10exactly after completion of 25 years of RSS. That was in 1950-51. One by an American who never
02:20visited India called J.A. Karan. It was on religious militant nationalism, the case study of RSS.
02:27It was his PhD thesis. There was another one by, interestingly, a Christian pastor called
02:37Anthony Alinjimattam from Kerala. And he wrote a book on the philosophy and action of RSS for
02:44Hindu Swaraj. Interestingly, most of the quotes and the citations that you find today about RSS
02:51are starting from J.A. Karan's and his, you know, the adjectives that are used for RSS, whether you
03:00call it cultural nationalism or Hindu militant, fascist, whatever you want. Interestingly, the
03:07Gandhian Christian pastor who wrote about RSS is never quoted, even in academic circles. I see,
03:15you know, you know, when RSS started, it was a more, you know, a sense of mockery for many of the people,
03:25even in Nagpur. By 1940, it reached up to 125 places in India when Dr. Hetgewar, the founder, actually
03:34passed away. And what we see today, with 83,000 shakhahs, that is the primary activity. But beyond
03:42that, 32 inspired organizations and the way RSS thought process is getting acceptance in the society,
03:51that is a remarkable journey. You can, you know, like or hate, but you can't neglect sort of.
03:58But is it cultural nationalism? Is it the arrival of a certain assertive Hindu cultural nationalism or
04:05short answer? Is that what you're seeing when you say that it has spread in the manner that it has
04:10its influence? Is it the arrival of a certain sense of Hindu identity? Yes or no? Yes. And it is
04:18mainly because the three contesting ideas, Rajdeep, please try and understand. One was that British
04:23taught us and the Nehruian secularism accepted that we are in the nation in the making. There is a left
04:31viewpoint that we are never a nation. We can never be a nation. We have a conglomeration of many
04:35nationalities. And at the most, we are a structured state. We can have many struggles on the languages.
04:42And there is a third point of view, which we, you know, carried forward for ages, that we have been
04:48an ancient civilization, civilizational state, which we perhaps created in the form of new state in
04:551947. RSS stands for that. And that viewpoint has been accepted and we have to accept it.
05:01Okay. So it's a civilizational identity that Prafula Ketkar is pointing out. You want to respond to that,
05:08that effectively what he's saying is that the growth and increasing acceptance of the RSS worldview,
05:15as he puts it, let's be very clear. The prime minister of this country is an RSS Pracharag.
05:20All the leading lights of the BJP have gone through in a way the RSS system. Therefore, it is the arrival
05:26of a certain civilizational identity stretching back centuries. It's not exclusively Hindu identity only.
05:34Your response, Tushar Gandhi.
05:37Before I make any comments, I'd like to admit the fact that in India today, and I'm not talking about
05:45the host, I'm talking about India today.
05:50Nathuram Godse's voice finds more resonance and empathy than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi's voice.
05:57And we have to accept this fact and then go beyond this and talk about everything else.
06:05For me, there is no doubt. There is no religious nationalism. There is no identity thing. It's basically
06:16the philosophy of hate, the philosophy of divisiveness, and the philosophy of murder that we see embodied in the RSS.
06:26And I will keep repeating that because not just at the inception of this country as an independent country,
06:36but right up to the present day, that ideology is in practice in India.
06:42And we cannot deny that.
06:44No, sir, you are seeing the RSS through the prism of what happened in 1948, January 30th,
06:50the assassination of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi by Nathuram Godse.
06:55Because there will be those who will say Nathuram Godse was Hindu Mahasabha.
06:58A, he was not RSS.
07:00B, is an organization going to be damned all these years later by what happened in 1948?
07:06No, I am saying it because it's still happening. Dabholkar, Pansare, Devburgi, Akalburgi, and Gauri Lankesh
07:15were also as much victim as Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. So it's not anchored in 1948. It continues.
07:23So you're saying RSS is fundamentally based on hate and division?
07:27Absolutely.
07:28The ideology is based on hate and division.
07:30I would like to quote a few of the instances why I say this. This is when Bapu was in Calcutta
07:41and he fasted for peace in Calcutta. And since we have the editor of Organizer with us, I'm
07:48quoting the organizer, which says, the headline is, Nero fiddled when Rome burnt. And the organizer
07:59remarked, history is repeating itself before our very eyes. From Calcutta, Mahatma Gandhi
08:05is praising Islam and crying Allah Akbar, and enjoining Hindus to do the same. While in Punjab
08:14and elsewhere, most heinous, shameless barbarities and brutalities are being perpetrated in the
08:21name of Islam and under the cry of Allah Akbar.
08:24This is the kind of language that we hear from the RSS always. This is the kind of, you know,
08:34a kind of rabble-rousing that we find always. I would like to just explain over here that
08:41in Bihar, in a public meeting, Bapu had asked, pleaded with the people that Muslims have been
08:50using Allah Akbar and massacring Hindus. Hindus have been crying Jai Shri Ram and Har Har Mahadev
08:58and murdering Muslims. And no religion ever preaches this kind of hatred and massacre.
09:07So please stop. And yet, the organizer in its article decides to blame Bapu for crying Allah Akbar.
09:17But this is happening even today.
09:21You want to respond to that, that effectively what Dushar Gandhi seems to be suggesting is that
09:25there is a battle between a Gandhian worldview and an RSS worldview. He's posing the two against,
09:31that RSS effectively is exclusionary and built on hate, and the Gandhian ideology was built on compassion and inclusion.
09:40Your response.
09:41Rajdeep, I feel, you know, I virtually born and brought up in RSS family and, yes, he quoted organizer.
09:50That time, A.R. Nayar was the editor, came from a communist background. And people have, you know,
09:57this habit of quoting. I mean, you have many point of views on many issues. I'm sure Mr. Puri is not held accountable for it.
10:06RSS, you know, RSS, you know, organizer is a 40,000, 14,000 shareholder company, which RSS is not even owning, but he keeps on,
10:16you know, I heard Gorse more from the RSS haters rather than from RSS background. I never heard.
10:24In fact, the first person who denounced Gorse was Gurji Golwalkar. In fact, on 30th January, he was in Madras,
10:35attending some RSS meeting. He cancelled all his program. He came back to Nagpur and he wrote a telegram to Mr. Nehru,
10:44then Prime Minister. And he clearly said, about Gorse, that time the name was obviously not clear,
10:55but the Weil Act is a blot on our society in the eyes of the world. Even if it had been the hands of one from an enemy country,
11:05this act would have been unpardonable for the life of Mahatmaji, was dedicated to the good of entire humanity,
11:12crossing the borders of particular groups of people. That is the telegram he has written.
11:18And I don't know, I see many people who hate either RSS or Prime Minister Modi, spread more hatred and more un-Gandhian,
11:28in fact, carrying real or unreal Gandhi surname, than, you know, the kind of language they are using,
11:37even on social media, for the elected Prime Minister, is un-Gandhian. If you read, and that's why I quoted Anthony Alinjimettam,
11:47when he said Hind Swaraj, you know, post-Gandhi, people who critique Gandhi the most, in 1945,
11:58Gandhi was asking Mr. Nehru about the future of India. And Mr. Nehru is replying him in his letter,
12:09Papu, your ideas about Hind Swaraj and India are unreal, and I don't believe in it.
12:1720 years ago, I never liked it, but today I don't believe it.
12:22So, taking Gandhi's name, and realizing with, you know, Gandhian ideals, are two different things.
12:31No, but, but, but, but let me...
12:33Hindu, I, I would just remind...
12:34Yes.
12:35Gandhi was the first person to use the word Ramaraj. Was he communal?
12:40Gandhi was the first person to talk about cow protection. Was he communal?
12:45Gandhi was the first person who actually said, all ways of worships are good. And that's why
12:52conversion is a violence. Was he communal? That is what RSS stands for.
12:59Okay, I want a quick response from Tushar, and then I'll come to one of the central elephants
13:03in the room. But go ahead, Tushar, respond to this.
13:06Well, Gandhi's Gramaraj, and he has defined it in his own words, was the rule of law, which
13:13treated everybody equally, where the poorest of the poor and the weakest of the weak would
13:19be heard of and acted upon. It wasn't the Ramaraj that we are now being told is good for India.
13:28His idea of cow protection, yes, he talked about cow protection, but he never, ever opposed
13:35cow slaughter, because he said that there are people in India who treat cow as a source
13:42of food, and we cannot deny that. And when there was an agitation for a ban on cow slaughter,
13:49he said we would, we cannot emulate the rules and laws of Pakistan. We are a more civilized
13:58country. So please, when you quote Bapu, don't be selective in picking up words. Bapu's
14:05writings had a depth to it, unlike the RSS rhetoric.
14:12Okay, because the elephant in the room that I was going to talk about is India's Muslims.
14:17More than 200 million people, Prafula Ketkar in India are Muslims. You quoted Golwalkar a
14:22short while ago, and again, we can selectively quote people who've been in public life for
14:27years, but he used to describe, he described in one of his writings, Muslims as Yavansnakes,
14:31that effectively, effectively Muslims, Christians were the enemies of the state. Are you denying
14:37that? No. Are you saying he never said that? You are misquoting him. He never used the word
14:42Yavansnakes? He used, he used, he used, not for Muslims, he used three words. Yes. In fact,
14:48he used Islamic fundamentalist, he used Christian evangelist, and he used communist materialist.
14:57He used the three words. No. So effectively, you see, the point is that there seems to be
15:03this, I mean, the critique of the critics of RSS will say RSS tries to ride two horses
15:09and when it suits them, they will say we are totally inclusive. Mohan Bhagwat will say Muslims
15:15are the same DNA as Hindus. We embrace all Muslims. And yet you'll have the Bajrang Dal, the VHP,
15:22who will say, jo Hindu hit ki baat karega, wahi desh mein raj karega. So I want to understand,
15:27you want to ride all the horses. As a result, the RSS is somewhere demonized by its critics
15:33as an anti-Muslim organization. Forget all the very, everything else. At the core of it,
15:40you are looking for the Muslim as the enemy. True or not?
15:43No, absolutely not. Why I'm telling you? Simply because, and for that, I would request you,
15:51there is a famous interview given by Guruji Golwalkar in 1972 to Mr. Jilani, Iranian journalist,
16:01a very lengthy interview on this particular issue. And he made a very, very critical point,
16:06which even Mohanji made it in his recent speeches. See, for RSS, RSS philosophy, the word Hindu defines
16:21the USP of Bharat. USP of Bharat. What is USP of Bharat? Civilizationally, the USP of Bharat is
16:30the spiritual democracy. You have a right to choose your own God. You have a Gandhi who can
16:39claim to be an atheist and still can be a Hindu. And you have another Gandhi who said,
16:46I'm purely religious and can be a Hindu. A monotheist can be a Hindu. A polytheist can be a
16:51Hindu. An omnitheist can be a Hindu. That freedom is given only in this land and that is the USP of
16:59this land. It's somebody, everybody following the same lineage. And that's why when it comes
17:07about the, and most of the times it comes when it comes to the history, you know, people,
17:13I have a very simple question. Shouldn't we talk, when we talk about the caste, caste issue,
17:20we talk about the caste discrimination, caste atrocities, and we say we should have a social
17:27justice. Similarly, if there are religious atrocities, shouldn't we talk historically that
17:35there should be civilizational justice? Why are we afraid of it? Why are we assuming that
17:42Indian Muslims are inheritors? Remember KK Mohammed, I interviewed when 2003 survey was happened,
17:49ASI survey, and he made a very categorical statement. If communist historians wouldn't have been there,
17:55Babri Masjid Action Committee would have accepted the evidences of ASI. Because they were the ones to
18:03told that you are the inheritance of Babur and Aurangzeb. My fundamental proposition is, I don't speak on
18:09behalf of RSS, I don't claim to be speaking on behalf of. I speak as editor-organizer, I'm a Swansivak,
18:15I wrote a book on RSS. My understanding of RSS is, RSS believes that everybody living in India is
18:22fundamentally civilizational Hindu, simply because they believe in multiplicity of faiths. The respect
18:30and acceptance of this historical reality is the idea of Hindurashtra. Hindurashtra is nothing to be
18:37made. This accepting this USP and then creating this, you know, the unity is basically the idea of
18:45India. It's interesting because that seems to somewhere go away from what Savarkar spoke about
18:50when he spoke about Punya Bhoomi and Pitra Bhoomi. But let, let Tushar Gandhi respond. You're hearing
18:56Traful Lakhetkar. He is saying something very important and significant that whoever resides in
19:01this country is part of a larger Bharatiya ethos, if I may use the word Bharatiya. You want to respond to
19:08that. And therefore the RSS, he claims is unfairly demonized as being anti-Muslim.
19:13I want to respond to two things. One is you talked about MS Kulwalkar. I want to refer to his
19:20comments on Muslims and Bapu. But before that, I want to make it very clear that RSS doesn't believe
19:28in civilizational justice. It believes in civilizational revenge and it practices that. And so we must not get
19:37carried away by this smooth talk. And now I'd like to quote MS Kulwalkar again, which this is
19:45in December, 1947. Please remember the significance of this date. And he speaks on Muslims. And I quote,
19:54no power on earth could keep them in Hindustan. They would have not, they would have to quit the country.
20:01Mahatma Gandhi wanted to keep the Muslims in India so that the Congress may profit by their votes at the
20:10time of elections. But by that time, not a single Muslim will be left in India. Mahatma Gandhi could
20:18not mislead them any longer. We have the means whereby such men can be immediately silenced. But it is our
20:26tradition not to be inimical to Hindus. If we are compelled, we will have to resort to that course
20:34too. And this in December, 1947, you know what happened on 30th January, 1948. There doesn't need
20:45to be a link between this group and what happened. You're claiming that the RSS or the RSS worldview
20:53ideology was responsible for the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi. I just want to, I just want to
20:58just to say that Golwalkar passed away in 1973. We are now in 2025. You seem to suggest that we must see
21:06the RSS only through the prism of what Golwalkar may have said, not said in 1947. Let's talk about
21:12contemporary India. 2025, the RSS, Mr. Tushar Gandhi, like it or not, is today effectively the party in
21:20power or the organization in power. What has happened? Has India changed? Has the RSS changed
21:28for the BJP, which is effectively part of the wider Sangh Paribar, to become such a dominant force?
21:34India is changing. And I admitted that right in the beginning of my talk. And I will counter...
21:40I have critics of RSS in India. I will counter, I will counter your thought. We are not going back to
21:46the time of Golwalkar and being archaic in our things. His bunch of thoughts is still
21:53the gospel of the RSS on which it still functions. And so he remains pertinent to what is happening in
22:01the present day India. Let's not be too diplomatic about this. So what has changed? Is it the normalization of hate?
22:07India is changing. India is changing, unfortunately. Or is India rediscovering, as the RSS says, a sense of its civilizational pride?
22:14What you say is civilizational revenge, they say is a sense of civilizational pride.
22:18India is discovering the Nathuram Godse in it and subscribing to that ideology. It is being done because of the
22:27vile, hateful campaign carried out by the RSS right from the time of independence to today.
22:34And why have those who chose to challenge that failed to be able to convince a sufficient number
22:40of Indians that what you are saying is right that it is civilizational revenge? I admit that it is our
22:44fault. I admit that it is our defeat. And I don't feel bad in admitting that we failed India. We who
22:53claim to be Gandhians have failed India. Respond. See, he carried the label of liberal and atheist. So I don't
23:01know how does Gandhi goes along with it. But I accept. I accept because being a Hindu, for me,
23:09all ways are accepted and true. My problem is with the people, you know, when you don't accept. See,
23:17in 2018, when Srimon Bhagwat was speaking in his lecture season, I'm sure who you were also there,
23:25he clearly said many of his thoughts, you know, in bunch of thoughts are bunch of thoughts is not
23:30reprinted by RSS. Most of the bunch of thoughts were printed copies by the RSS haters. You know,
23:37and the original copy of Loki Heath that was published in Hindi in Lucknow.
23:43I hope you are not disowning Goldwater now. We are not disowning. We are not disowning
23:47everybody. We are not disowning anything of the history. See, one of the biggest critics
23:52of Gandhi's or Congress's Muslim policy was Dr. Ambedkar. Do you call him hateful?
24:00Ambedkar was the only person. Criticism and hate are two different things. Please do not twist my
24:07words. Sorry, sorry. Please do not twist my words. You are now doing politics over here. I am talking
24:14about society. I am not talking about politics. Please don't try to make it politics. No, no,
24:18no, no, no. I am not talking about politics. I said Ambedkar was the only person who spoke about
24:28exchange of population. In fact, both Golvalkar and Savarkar opposed the partition and they believed
24:35that Gandhi would be the last person who would stood. Unfortunately, he had to accept the partition,
24:41but till last moment, till third, till actually Congress accepted the partition resolution, Gandhi
24:47was the only person who within Congress was saying that I would not accept the partition and many
24:52people believe that. The point here is some people are stuck up. You know, you guys also talk only
25:00about BJP. Why don't you realize that BMS is the largest labor organization even ILO has to take
25:06cognizance of it. Why don't you take, you know, understand the basic thing that ABVP is the largest
25:14student organization in even campuses like Hyderabad Center University. All the seven seats are recently
25:19won by ABVP. There is a sanskarvarti which is from folk arts to, you know, the classical art are
25:28integrating and bringing all the artists on one platform. Why are you not understanding it is not just
25:34about politics? It is about understanding that being Hindu is synthesizing even what you see primarily
25:44contradictory. And that is what even Gandhian Satyagraha. Gandhian Satyagraha are two parts.
25:49Gandhian Satyagraha was what he was doing against the British, but there was a constructive program.
25:54Tell me a single constructive program that Congress has done after Gandhi. I will give you hundreds of
26:00hundreds of examples from RSS. So are you, are you as the prime minister said it is independent
26:05speech, India's largest NGO. You see, because it's a, it's a, it's a Hydra headed NGO. You can have
26:13organizations that promote Sanskriti and you can have the Bajrang Dal, which let's be honest,
26:19promotes many believe vicious anti-Muslim hatred on the ground, which is the real RSS. And you would
26:26then have deniability. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not denying anything. Dr. Hedgewar was a person
26:33who was a Congress member, who was a revolutionary, who worked along with the Bengal Anushilan Samiti,
26:40who was even a part of Congress 1922 session organizing committee. He was also a member of many
26:47drafting committees for the socialist party. And he made one interesting point about RSS. He said,
26:55I don't want to create an organization in the society. I want to organize the entire society.
27:03So it was a way of mobilizing Hindus. The, the, the problem that he diagnosed that most of the people
27:09at one point Gandhi also thought so in 1908, nine up to 15, many people that time were talking about
27:19how to gain independence. RSS founder talked about why we lost independence. And he realized that we
27:28caught up in many of the, you know, fragmentations on the basis of caste, on the basis of languages,
27:35our perspective towards our history. And unless that it changed, even if we get independence,
27:40our problems will not be solved. And that's why he said, I don't want to raise an organization. I want
27:47to organize the entire society. So that was a different approach that unfortunately people who
27:54are criticizing RSS from outside are not ready to understand. You see this point, there is a sense
28:01that the critics of the RSS see it almost through one prism only that the RSS is built singularly on
28:07hatred of the Muslims. They do not look not just that, not just that they're hatred towards RSS so much
28:14that they don't want to understand even RSS from RSS point of view that there is an RSS that he claims is a,
28:20is a selfless organization that has spread its tentacles in different aspects of society.
28:27I'd like to agree with one point that he made that RSS doesn't want to establish an organization,
28:34they want to organize society. That's exactly what Hitler and Mussolini set out to do in Germany and
28:40Italy. And that is where they got their inspiration from, for the RSS. Having said that, I just want to
28:48go back to what Bapu said. At partition time, Bapu sent Dr. Sushila Nahir to, across the border,
28:55the newly drawn border, to a camp where refugees, Hindu and Sikh refugees fleeing the newly created
29:03Pakistan were temporarily housed till they could be brought across the border. When she came back and
29:11she talked to Bapu, while describing the situation over there, she praised the work that RSS was doing
29:20for relief for the refugees. And Bapu told her, don't be fooled. Because when they do good,
29:28their intention is evil. And that is what exactly they were doing in all the refugee camps all across
29:35India, fomenting and manipulating the anger towards the Muslims.
29:41But if today the RSS is at the forefront of flood relief, for example, are you still going to see
29:46them from the prism of the past? The relief they bring to the flood relief and the natural calamities
29:54is praiseworthy. But the intention of doing it is the malified intention of polarizing society.
30:01I failed to understand that simply because I worked in Bhuj when the earthquake took place 2001.
30:09I don't remember a single discrimination on the basis of either religion or caste while
30:16reconstructing houses. I remember when that plane crash took place. All the passengers were Muslims.
30:23In fact, the local maulavi was called for to do the last riots. Because all the passengers were Muslims.
30:34So, you know, having a hateful, you know, some understanding, if some Mr. Munjay had met with
30:41Mussolini, and so was Mr. Gandhi. Mr. Gandhi had a meeting with Hitler also. So does it make, you know,
30:49he did not meet Hitler, he did not meet Mussolini. Please, please read your history before you make
30:55statements. He passed through Italy while on his way back from the round table conference,
31:02and he wrote to Hitler, please don't misquote history. When RSS says that we want to organize the
31:09entire society, it simply means on certain issues as a nation, we should have a common understanding
31:17about ourselves. If we have certain flaws as a society, maybe related to caste, maybe related to,
31:25one simple question, one important speech, you know, because a lot of people talk about language,
31:30and RSS is also asked on the language issue. 1952, there was an important speech delivered by Mr.
31:38Goldworker Guruji in Chennai, that time Madras. And he made an interesting
31:46argument. He said, all Indian languages are national languages. And that is what the constitution
31:53says. For the practical purpose, maybe English and Hindi are the Rajabhasha, that is the official or
32:00state languages. But when it comes to our national conversation, when it comes to the prioritization,
32:06we should give priority to any of the Indian language. So idea of RSS was basically overcoming the shortcomings of
32:20our society through constructive means, and through a consistent dialogue. Shaka became a training program
32:29for it. In Shaka, I never see any of the religious preaching. In fact, it is one of the most secular,
32:36except Bharat Mata, nothing is worshipped. So I don't know why RSS critics always see this from either
32:42BJP prism, or anti-Muslim prism, or some imaginary fascism. You know, I don't see what kind of...
32:49You know, you seem to be almost projecting RSS as the victim. That, you know, here is the party which is
32:54today, or the organization which is in supreme power in India, but hum, hum ko sab log target
32:59kar ra hai. No, intellectual, no, people have accepted it. Indian people have accepted the RSS
33:05point of view simply, as I said, India is a civilizational rashtra, which we call Hindu rashtra.
33:11If you don't want to call it, you call it Bharatiya rashtra. That doesn't matter. But the, the, the,
33:16in the name of secularism, if you are saying we are making a new nation, this is not a nation,
33:22this is a tupade tupane neshem, then it is not accepted. And, uh, we will discuss and debate over
33:27it, but we will not hate you. Okay. People who criticize RSS for hatred live virtually on RSS
33:34hatred. We hate RSS. We don't murder. We don't murder RSS. You know, timeline. Yeah. With the social
33:41media timeline. I have exactly a minute. If we were to do this debate 50 years from now, I won't be around.
33:47The RSS will suddenly be around 50 years from now. Do you believe that the RSS will be as dominant
33:54as it is today? Or do you believe it will eventually be seen for what you seem to see it as a very
34:01exclusionary organization? Well, as long as I live, I will try and make it make people understand that
34:08that is what it is. An organization that excludes us. An organization that thrives on hate,
34:15divisiveness and murder. 50 years from now, what will happen to the RSS? I don't know. RSS would like
34:22to dissolve itself in the society, but I believe that Bharat will be there and Bharat will be guiding
34:28the world how to co-exist with different faiths peacefully. That Bharat will be guiding thanks to
34:35RSS and civilizational philosophy of Hindurash. Okay. Let me leave it there. Two different points of view.
34:41Tushar Gandhi and Prafula Khetkar appreciate your joining us. One of the treasures of this country is
34:48we can still have a Samwat with two alternative points of view and do it peacefully. And I think that
34:53is the strength of this country. The strength of this country is its diversity and its pluralism.
34:59And if we can respect that, there may be space both for Tushar Gandhi and for the RSS. Thanks to you,
35:04Rajdeep. Otherwise, the space is narrowing. Okay. Let me leave it at that. I won't go into those
35:09debates too. For RSS side, it is always open. Okay. Thank you very much. Tushar Gandhi, Prafula Khetkar
35:16for joining me here. Thank you.
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