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Well Enough full episode 10: Millie Mackintosh and Professor David NuttSource The Independent
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00:00For me it's been completely life-changing and if you told me 10 years ago I was going to have a book
00:06about my experience with alcohol called Bad Drunk I would have thought you were mad. It's actually
00:12been really cathartic and one of the reasons I wanted to do the book was to help other people
00:18who also struggled with either addiction or just an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and who
00:25for years had kind of wanted to stop but hadn't known how or you know it's so ingrained in us to
00:31drink every social situation there was so many times when I said again I'm not drinking tonight
00:35or I'm I'm going to take a break or I've tried so many different ways to make drinking work for me
00:41or to cut back and it just never lasted and I wanted to do a book to talk about my experience
00:46because there's so much shame around this topic I think especially for women as well it's really
00:51a big problem that isn't talked about. The problem had been there since I was a teenager but it had
00:57got worse over the years and then after I became a mum I think my mental health was struggling more
01:02than ever and so when I was drinking it was just an absolute disaster. Being a teenager and almost
01:08kind of being as I feel like I was in a way indoctrinated into this culture of we drink a lot
01:14sometimes we binge drink yeah and it's really really normalized now it's always encouraged like
01:20celebrate celebrated yeah and it may be quite competitive as well this idea that who can drink
01:25the most um you know who got the most drunk and people telling all this kind of war stories. Like
01:31a badge of honor yeah exactly it's it's really interesting to me that now young people are
01:37perhaps not behaving in that way so much they haven't given up alcohol altogether because 75% of
01:43them are still drinking alcohol but that 25% they have decided that's not for them. Did you feel
01:50kind of growing up that if you didn't partake in that that you were perceived as being no fun and
01:54do you think that has maybe changed for young people now? It was just the norm it was what you
02:00did at parties it was how you fit in I don't remember anyone saying they didn't drink. You almost
02:06considered to be yeah the the odd one out well you wouldn't get to the party if you didn't drink
02:10it wouldn't be there. Well David I wonder whether you can shed some light on why social cues and
02:17social pressures are so intertwined with the experience of drinking alcohol. You're asking the
02:21question why do we drink at all really because we drink to socialize alcohol is the ultimate social
02:27drug and that's why humans have cherished it for so many thousands of years despite the obvious
02:34toxicity and it works to make us more social. We are the strength of our species is that we are
02:43phenomenally we're phenomenally successful because we you know we're very social we work in families
02:49we work in tribes we work in countries but we're also quite anxious socially and people drink at
02:56parties to break down that social anxiety so they can have the confidence to meet other people so
02:59so we've used alcohol to overcome social anxiety for for millennia but the downside is that some
03:07of us are very vulnerable to drinking and and we can't stop and then you get into problems like you
03:12did. There's still a lot of stigma as well isn't there around issues with alcohol so it's all very
03:16well to say yes it's the ultimate social lubricant and it makes us all feel good and it brings us closer
03:21together and it's for celebration but if you admit that there's a problem that's quite taboo so it's
03:29that's quite weird. I remember when I first stopped drinking somebody that was very much a big
03:36influence in my life he kept saying to me when I tried to talk about it she kept saying
03:41you didn't have a problem and I knew I did but it was like reinforcing that if I did have a problem
03:48that wouldn't be okay that would be shameful it was like yeah but you know you always took it too far
03:55but you didn't have a problem but it's weird as well because we think of a problem in terms of
04:00quite a stereotypical set of of signifiers don't we what is a drinking problem what signifies a
04:06drinking problem who do we think of we probably don't think of you know a mum of two who enjoys a
04:13glass of wine with with her friends and yet in that moment for you it was very clear that you thought
04:20this is this is not right something feels wrong here right exactly and I mean it was the struggle
04:25was that it just wasn't just a glass then that for me it was never just one I can't just have one
04:31you mentioned shame and there's so much shame associated with dependency I wonder you talked
04:37about it being a very very social drug do you also could you also shed light on why we might feel
04:43so ashamed during drinking after drinking what happens there well if we fail to be part of the
04:49group because we can't take our drink or are we our behavior changes badly as a result of it
04:55then we're being ostracized from the group your social life was dominated when amongst your peers
05:02it was dominated by drinking if you're not drinking you're not part of the group you're not part of
05:05the group you well you're a weird one you know you that is what shame is isn't it being being
05:10ostracized from a group yeah there are a lot of myths about alcohol because the one that you've
05:14you've met most is the the idea that you can drink responsibly that is the sum total of what
05:21our educational message is on bottles drink responsibly and we all know that most people when they
05:28drink want to lose responsibility we want to break down some of that anxiety after the first one
05:33responsibility is forgotten it's absurd to rely on that as a way of helping people control their
05:39drinking and so what the comment you were making about the new generation of cutting and 20% cutting
05:43alcohol completely tells us something interesting has happened that they they have learnt the truth
05:50somewhere hopefully from some of my writings maybe from yours as well but but but it that's an
05:55interesting phenomenon and i don't actually know if where that's come from because it's not obviously
06:00not been promoted by the industry that we promoted by department of health it's it's it's emerged
06:06you know from somewhere else so i don't know what you where you think i think it's because partly
06:11because people are much more aware of their mental health as part of their overall health and they're
06:17conscious of what they're doing what the habits are what they're consuming and how that affects
06:22they're thinking more about themselves and their brain health as well i absolutely agree with you and i
06:27think we we are all post pandemic very concerned with our well-being with our mortality with how we move
06:34through the world in with this body with this brain and you know the positives of not drinking are
06:40spoken about by people like you you know you've written this this marvelous book that says these are
06:44all the the ways that i have felt better as a result of not drinking i wonder if you can maybe shine a bit of
06:50light on some of those positives positives for me really are like the time that i've got back
06:55the time that i'm not spent hung over the like not having that that feeling of dread when i wake up on
07:04on the weekend and actually being able to get out the house early enjoy the day with my kids and
07:09i really wasn't able to enjoy parenting when i'd been drinking the night before and i love being a
07:16mum i mean it's hard but i love it and it was really stealing my joy so it's it's being able to
07:22enjoy the small things um it's small changes like not missing workouts so maybe you know some of the
07:29first things i noticed was that i was i was working out more so i felt better in my body i felt stronger
07:35i felt leaner i lost like a dress size kind of stubborn body fat that just wouldn't go around my
07:42stomach went off to maybe a month or two i mean there was sugar cravings at the beginning don't get me
07:48wrong because you're kind of missing the sugar i know that's a really normal one um but the energy
07:54that you get back as well and the clarity it's just kind of this clarity that you get in your mind
08:00it kind of took maybe a couple of months to come i think people often um they talk about the trade-off
08:08don't they and how after they've given up drinking there's almost like this newfound appreciation for
08:14life because they've traded one thing that they thought was bringing them joy and they've discovered
08:19this whole new way of being and often when i read you know articles or interviews that that talk about
08:25that that experience i feel quite inspired in a way that you know old cynical me would be quite
08:32surprised by because i used to really enjoy drinking and now it just does not really fit with the kind
08:36of lifestyle that i have um so i can i can really relate to a lot of those points you know getting
08:41time back feeling fresher having more time for things that you really enjoy also and it's like
08:46pushed me to experience things that i wouldn't normally have done like go to do an ecstatic
08:51dance class go and you know try and get my dopamine hits in other ways like one of the crazy things i did
08:58i'm quite scared of heights i went and did like a go ape course which is you know like in the treetops
09:03in a harness yeah i mean that will give you yeah you know something you know um going and doing ice
09:09baths going and you know doing like biohacking and you know all kinds of different things to just get
09:13that natural high the getting high on life thing i think is is quite cool because it's a cliche but
09:20there's there's a lot to it isn't there the idea that the brain is this wonderful tool and most of
09:27us aren't actually using it in the right way it's quite an interesting one well that's right i mean
09:31alcohol is very convenient it's it's a very easy way of changing your brain i mean probably
09:35well it's i think it's the most used drug in the world but it's not necessarily the only drug is
09:40it i mean there's so many different things that we can do but that do give us a buzz and some of
09:44them are dangerous like horse riding but we don't need to go there famously yeah i just want to pause
09:51for a second to let you know that conversations like this one are such a crucial part of de-stigmatizing
09:57the conversation around alcohol in the uk and in order to keep having these conversations we really
10:02really need your support so one thing you can do is like this video and subscribe to our channel
10:07thank you so much but i wonder as well about alcohol alternatives i personally have found some
10:13really really great ones and they certainly hit the spot for me i wonder if you've got any favorites
10:19millie i know you've recommended some in the past i've tried quite a few because i mean i've been sober
10:23over three years now and i don't want something that mimics alcohol i don't i just don't care for it i
10:29don't i don't want i don't want a white wine which without the alcohol in it like i just don't
10:34i think that's wise it's just also just for me it's just it's just not the same thing and then
10:39why would you have it if you could have something delicious yeah i don't find i i just don't i don't
10:43think it tastes good so my favorites are trip which they've got they've got mindful blend which
10:50either has like magnesium in it which is really calming um or they've got the cbd drinks as well
10:55those are delicious there's a really great brand called three spirit which has like kind of
11:01adapted genetic ingredients they've got one that's called the livener that's quite nice before an
11:06event and then they've got one called nightcap which is a bit more relaxing so you're a fan of
11:10the functional drink yeah i like the functional drinks i like i want something that's kind of
11:13going to do something for you know either elevating my mood or helping me to calm down and this leads
11:18us on really nicely to talk about sentia which is obviously we've always got to start sending you
11:22something yes yeah if you haven't tried it already i would recommend it because i really enjoy it it's
11:27one of my favorites but i wonder if uh if david can tell us a little bit more about it and how it works
11:32because this is a functional drink that essentially makes you feel a bit waved makes you feel a bit
11:37tipsy right yeah i mean it's designed to to give people what they're looking for with alcohol but
11:44without the harms of alcohol and but also without the tendency of moorishness that alcohol
11:51produces in not in everyone but in someone like you who i have one and i want a hundred yeah and
11:56that's and that's because you you've talked about it you've talked about the dopamine hit and
12:01for some people alcohol does release dopamine and that dopamine then is you know it drives you to
12:07take more and more and on top of that that also gets you into an addictive cycle so what we've done is
12:13we've basically found herbs which enhance relaxation in the brain through a particular neurotransmitter
12:20but don't do anything to dopamine or the endorphins or the other systems that you were engaging with
12:28when you basically got drunk that sounds great it's wonderful and i think the idea that we're kind of
12:34looking back to plants and plant intelligence to signal new ways to maybe nudge the brain is quite
12:43interesting because the reason we discovered alcohol was because we were messing around with plants
12:48originally right that's where it came from yeah we were picking up rotting fruit and wondering why
12:52the the pigs enjoyed it and then we realized well that's quite interesting yes we can enjoy it too
12:57yeah um but obviously knowing now what we know and having the scientific capability to create something
13:04that isn't going to harm us is great i mean can i just add to that a bit so the ingredients in uh in
13:12i mean they've all been known everything in there was essentially in the food chain
13:17before you know before 1997 that's why it's a food and many of them have been known for thousands of
13:23years we looked into chinese medicine ayurvedic medicine historic use of of herbs in in in western
13:28europe as well so there's been a tradition of using herbs we've just kind of forgotten it and that's
13:34partly because the drinks industry has been so effective at dominating all the discourse on
13:39and what you might drink uh and it is it's good to resurrect some of that historic knowledge about
13:45about various different botanicals which have been used as a for centuries in different cultures to
13:50produce relaxation absolutely and it's interesting to me that the wellness industry is now worth more
13:56than the alcohol industry so we're yeah we're looking at this really interesting shift but i do think
14:01that often it can feel quite intimidating to give up alcohol certainly in a culture where
14:06we have been brought up to just drink you know it's part of who we are it's part of our social
14:11fabric but for someone who thinks i really really want to give up but all my friends drink i don't
14:16know how i can walk into a pub and say oh not for me what can people do i think one of the biggest
14:22shifts for me was getting really informed and like the research you do like what you talk about
14:27what alcohol actually does to your body and brain when you learn that information it's kind of hard to
14:33forget it i think that that was one of the first things i did i definitely want to stop for good
14:38this time and i just downloaded all the podcasts i could find about quitting alcohol i bought books i
14:46just was like i wanted to consume as much information as i could i think i started with the andrew huberman
14:51podcast um which was called like what alcohol does to your body and brain that was a real shift for me
14:57and then i got a sober coach so i'd say get help there's you know there's groups depends like
15:05every person's story and journey is so different you've got to find like what works for you
15:10for me a sober coach weekly was what i did for about six months so i had that support
15:16and i just say just you know tell like have a couple of people close to you that know
15:21and when you're going to those events and those things which feel tough just have
15:25like a wingman with you have someone with you that knows that it's going to be a bit tricky
15:29for you to get through that social anxiety without a drink someone that can squeeze your hand someone
15:32that can just kind of just be your support because it's hard and also find it find the alternative
15:38that you like and bring it with you bringing it with you is a good chat actually i remember seeing
15:43well that's the problem isn't it because most places don't have alternatives in fact very few
15:46places yeah there's there's a lot more than there used to be but often in a pub it might only be
15:54an alcohol-free beer and you might not want something that tastes like alcohol exactly exactly yes
16:01so in gabba labs we're trying to promote the idea that everyone should have it have the option of a
16:09functional drink in any place where alcoholic drinks are provided because that would currently
16:14there is no choice it's either alcohol or a very expensive lemonade which yeah or 15 pound mocktail
16:20which must be yeah like a coca-cola or whatever which is also not like we know not good for your
16:26health when you're out on a night out and you are drinking juice after juice after juice it's a lot
16:31of sugar as well isn't it these alternatives can sometimes make you feel a bit toxed out i've had
16:36like a sugar hangover from drinking mocktails and woken up with that kind of headache pounding head
16:42and thought i didn't even drink alcohol last night and i still feel awful so it's the sugar it's a big
16:47part yeah and i do think you know having decent functional alternatives is a really really good
16:53option for people who are just getting started because it is tricky isn't it it's all about
16:57small incremental changes you mentioned working with a sober coach as well i wonder if you can
17:02illustrate what that might look like because it might be something people haven't heard of before
17:05so essentially it's like like doing therapy um specifically related to
17:13why i drank and going back into all of my history with alcohol he kept trying about going wanting to
17:20go back to my childhood at the beginning and i was like no like we don't need to go there like we just
17:24and we did need to go there i think you know a few sessions in it kind of clicked right okay that
17:30we're going to have to do the hard work that i've really not wanted to do the first step for anyone
17:35who wants to stop drinking is to just not is to put down the drink is to not choose every day to wake up
17:41and not have a drink that day but that's really just the beginning because then what you really
17:45have to do is look at all the things in your life that you've avoided emotionally like dealing with
17:52and you need to deal with those emotions because that is what is driving you to drink in a destructive
17:59way or use any drug in a destructive way and unless you get to those root causes you will probably
18:06drink again or you will find another addiction but the the kind of this the backslide or the slip up
18:12it's also not the end of the world is it and i think often people get quite all or nothing about
18:17their health they think if i've skipped a day at the gym that's it i'm not going back i think that's a
18:22big part of the sober curious journey for a lot of people i've got sober curious friends and they
18:27maybe drink once or twice a year god i think that's amazing for them they can do that but i know for me
18:33it's not safe to do that so i think you've got to have the understanding of okay could that one drink
18:38lead to a disastrous night that you'll really regret i'm interested in how you communicate
18:43to people you don't know who are trying to push drinks on you because it must happen all the time
18:47do you say i've got a drink problem or you just yeah sometimes if someone was really pushing it
18:53because sometimes it really shuts them up yeah absolutely you know you're just like i actually have
18:58a problem with alcohol yeah i think you do have to be careful if you are sober sober you know like
19:03don't let anyone buy your drinks for you like reiterate to the barman like three times to make
19:08sure that they got it from the like alcohol free section of the menu and they didn't get confused
19:13because you don't really don't want to get like thrown off by taking a sip of the wrong drink so
19:18people can be insensitive to it uh so like i've got friends who'll be like oh if we go out for dinner
19:23like do you mind if i drink and i'm like i do not mind i do i don't judge like my husband still drinks
19:28there's alcohol in the house it's not an issue for me that i would think okay i've got to try
19:33really hard not to be tempted to drink it but i don't particularly want to be around loads of drunk
19:37people and that's the difference that's my limit yeah and you start to notice don't you if you're not
19:42drinking and everyone else is yeah oh my gosh did i used to be like that and then i'm like that was me
19:47yeah have you been able to in your friends who probably didn't have quite this problem you have
19:54but they still had a problem with alcohol have you been able to communicate with them
19:57have they changed have they seen you and thought i feel like a few of my friends that used to drink
20:02a lot that have calmed down over the like like started drinking less in the last few years
20:08um maybe even since lockdown and some have just drifted away and i think that also happens
20:14because you hold up a mirror to people which can be really uncomfortable and there were
20:20at the beginning it was hurtful seeing you know on social media pictures of a dinner that i thought
20:25okay i probably would have been invited to that if i was still drinking i would have been at that dinner
20:30and not getting asked to go it did sting a bit at the beginning but then i'm like i don't know i
20:35wouldn't want to be there you have to recontextualize it don't you and just think okay well if everyone's
20:40going to be getting blind drunk and they didn't invite me and i wouldn't have enjoyed it anyway
20:44this is yeah i'm okay with it now i wonder as well david whether you have any tips for someone
20:50who might be at the beginning of that journey you know whether it's looking to something that's
20:54more functional or whether you've got more practical tips for someone who doesn't want to drink
20:58well i think the first thing i mean the key message is that people should think about their
21:04drinking you know when you start to do that you realize several things you you realize that a lot
21:11the drinks you drink don't have any value at all it gets worse but some some people can guess what
21:16when we then remember what drinks they drank so they clearly didn't have any purpose so that's the
21:23first thing to actually be objective about drinking as you would be about any other aspect of health
21:28like weight or blood pressure or cholesterol or whatever so you know this is a serious thing you're
21:33doing it's a drug you know it's like a medicine think of it as a medicine rather than just as fun
21:38and the second point and i've been very interested in your perspective on this if anyone has ever said
21:45to you i think you drink too much or are you sure you want that take it seriously because it's actually
21:51quite challenging to confront a friend with a concern about drinking because they can often turn on you
21:57but if any if anyone's ever done that do think oh that probably means something and actually i'm
22:05really interested in was there a trigger for you to start was a one event that made you stop
22:09that i mean i had so many disastrous ones but in the last year there was um a comment from a best
22:17friend who said i just can't see you do this to yourself anymore she said you can't you just can't
22:24handle it she said you just you're you're too sensitive she said you just it just doesn't
22:28agree with you that's a very nice way of putting it yeah but and you listened i didn't i didn't stop
22:34then but it it was it was a seed yeah exactly it was a seed it maybe was six months later that i
22:40stopped so that's true friendship isn't it if you can actually say to a friend that i genuinely
22:44think about this you know don't criticize them but just think and it worked in your case we have a
22:49piece that went up on the independent um in the last couple of days from a therapist who
22:53has given some advice on how to speak to a friend because as you say it's a really really sensitive
22:59subject but it's something that she encounters a lot people are coming to her all the time saying
23:04i don't know how to speak to this person but i love them so it's important to me and that i think is
23:11is really pertinent because alcohol can be fun but it can also be something that you know really wrecks
23:17lives and that's really difficult to see if you're on the outside looking in and i do think
23:23that our behaviors although they have changed we also do still harbor this kind of shame and stigma
23:28some people hide their drinking some people act like it's not an issue and that's really difficult
23:34to see um sometimes it just goes under the radar you might not realize that a relative a partner
23:39you know anybody is struggling with something like that but you can kind of get a sense of it
23:45there's a huge point you're making that so many people drink themselves to death and their relatives
23:50don't know i i had a friend whose daughter did that and and it wasn't so she was dead that they
23:57discovered she even was a drinker at all she'd hidden it so well and and the reason it was being
24:03hidden was because of shame and and actually you know what you've done is amazing you know to go in
24:08you know you have to overcome that and go public with a book i mean that's fantastic as a role model
24:12it's brilliant i think particularly like my parents generation found like you know having a
24:18drinking problem was shameful and i think that's why for so long i found it really hard to admit to
24:26myself that i did have a problem and then once i actually started talking about it online
24:32i realized there was so many so many people particularly women who would reach out and say
24:39they they've had such similar experiences to me the binge drinking as a teenager
24:43which went on into their 20s not knowing when to stop the regret the trying a million different ways
24:49to make alcohol work for you and just you know feeling like you're in a kind of in a on a hamster
24:55wheel or like you're in stuck in a cycle of just the same behavior repeating itself no matter how hard
25:01you try to change it um and yeah it really does destroy lives and for a lot of people the only way
25:08to abstain is just to completely stop because i think the temptation is like if you have one
25:13you know maybe i'll just have one and then it's for a lot of people it's very hard to just
25:19stop at one absolutely and it's weird isn't it because we've got this this stereotype of like the fun
25:25wine mum i mean the links to cancer are so scary and that's really not talked about and i think it's
25:32it is uncomfortable to talk about it but it's linked to seven different cancers that's right
25:39yeah it's like if that was written on the bottle people would think differently about it it's meant
25:44to be but the drinks industry has resisted for the last 25 years properly you know like it is on a
25:50cigarette packet exactly exactly and it should have a clear warning that people don't want to make the
25:55link that alcohol could be just as dangerous as cigarettes well let's talk about the impact i mean
26:01david you must have a really clear insight given your work into what alcohol actually does to the
26:06body you know how is it affecting us in terms of our short-term or long-term health wow how long
26:11have you got all the time in the world to hear about this because i really want to get to the bottom
26:16of it because i've also heard these old adages like red wine in moderation good for you it contains
26:21polyphenols resveratrol you know it's full of antioxidants yeah it's this why french women look so good
26:27but but but is any amount of alcohol ever good for us no a few few years ago a couple of germans
26:34decided to to put alcohol through the european food safety testing regime so suppose you invented
26:42alcohol today as a as a food additive as a flavoring or even as an intoxicant in food you
26:49the recommended safe amount per year is 150 mils of alcohol per year per year okay so many of us
27:00have drunk that much in a day yeah wow so it has a very it's only recently realized quite how toxic it
27:07was we give a very protected place to alcohol because we enjoy it and it's part of our heritage
27:15almost every cell in the body will be affected by alcohol you know it's a it gets into those cells
27:21it's quite toxic you know you have a scrape on your skin you kill the bugs with alcohol if it can
27:28kill bugs bugs are tougher than your skin cells what's that doing your cells in your body yeah so
27:33it's it's it's potentially toxic to every cell in the body so yes so it's uh alcohol harms most things
27:40um most most organ systems and that's without all of the lifestyle implications like the shame the
27:46hangovers you know the depressions yeah absolutely and if you look at the look at the health costs of
27:52alcohol the reason alcohol is the most harmful drug in the uk is largely because of the the social
27:57harms of alcohol it's not the most harmful drug to the user crack or crystal or or heroin or fentanyl
28:02are more dangerous to the user but because so many people drink alcohol but the health costs so in
28:08terms of health they're in terms also of policing alcohol policing drunkenness is is twice because
28:14twice as much as the health costs of alcohol amazing and then on top above all that more than
28:19the two together are the loss the opportunity cost from hangovers and absenteeism from work oh yeah we
28:26haven't even talked about time off work i mean i guess that's something that affects a lot of people
28:29still you know that's why they brought in licensing law they didn't have licensing laws into the
28:33to the first world war it was a joke that that no one worked to work in the mines on a monday
28:40because the miners would spend all their money over over the over the weekend on alcohol and they
28:46would be so hungover they couldn't go to work so that was affecting the war effort so actually that's
28:50why they brought in licensing laws but also that also drove the the the abstinence movement the the
28:57prohibitionist movement because because not only were people the men being very drunk but they were
29:03actually depriving their kids and their and their their partners of income so alcohol was seen as
29:08actually doubly damaging to the economy and also to families because wages were going straight into
29:12the pub absolutely families do you think we'll ever see a kind of prohibition style measure in this
29:17company we won't have prohibition because prohibition that i have had some rather unpleasant side
29:22effects uh collateral damage what we should be doing is making alcohol more more and more expensive
29:28we should be taxing it appropriately in the same way unpopular saying that to some people but it saves
29:33money well i wrote a piece a few years ago you know appropriate taxation would actually save everyone
29:39money well we'll save people that pay taxes money anyway yeah so the people the middle class who are
29:43drinking alcohol they could afford to pay they should pay more for their alcohol probably alcohol probably
29:51is about a third the price it should be uh and the loss to the individual in terms of what the extra
29:59cost of drinking would be more than offset by the benefit to them in terms of the reduced need for
30:05other taxes to deal with the pay for the policing and the and the health etc so there will be a net benefit
30:10of you get more money from the alcohol tax and you'd also reduce consumption so you reduce harm
30:16it would be a virtual circle yeah and i guess but if people are living longer because
30:20you know they haven't got that kind of alcohol poisoning that might be making people live
30:24shorter lives now that money would be available to keep them uh to keep them feeling better for
30:29longer that's an interesting thought yes can we yeah i'm not saying that analyzed but i think you know
30:34it's plausible might be onto something do you think we should be teaching more in schools
30:40oh totally yeah i think we've got a real dearth of information for young people haven't we
30:45we don't teach kids about the harms of our government you know we see so often kids are
30:51looking after their parents because their parents are drunk and they're doing that until they leave
30:56home and it's that's very stressful to them and also you know it can obviously takes away a lot of
31:02their ability to to learn and and do homework etc yeah a lot of the resourcing i guess for education on
31:10mental health on you know body literacy sex education you know a lot of that i think that rse
31:15money you know we need we need to be thinking about educating kids and the reverse is happening
31:21the drinks industry has become a bit careful how i phrase this but let's put it another way
31:26there's a disturbing amount of advertising on social media about alcohol that gets to kids
31:33kids under 10 know a lot about what the preferred drinks in the world are and they're not supposed
31:41you're not supposed to advertise to anyone under 18 but social media has you know has become very
31:48very you know the barriers are very limited and for reasons whether it's the industry or whether
31:53it's just marketers but there's a surprising amount of advertising it gets to it's the teenagers
31:58of that drink way before they're allowed to buy it well we know that social media is a pretty toxic
32:04place in terms of things reaching kids when it's not supposed to i think a lot of people you know
32:08they start drinking you know as soon as you can get your hands on it for me it was probably about 12
32:13and was that kind of taking it from your mom and dad's house or getting people to buy it for you
32:18like taking it from mom and dad's house going to parties where a few alco pops were allowed
32:24but normally it was like you've got the bottle of vodka in your bag that you're like topping up
32:29which is a pretty hard spirit for you know for a young person i mean that was probably from about
32:34kind of 14 i remember with my daughters we had to search people coming to parties to stop them
32:40bringing in the vodka bottles yeah because it's like the vodka in the water bottle or like you're
32:44going to a sleepover and yeah and the number of times we had to put kids in recovery position because
32:50in fact that there was a period when one of my daughters had a very active friendship group who
32:57were very into alcohol every party one of them was going to hospital because they were so drunk
33:02and it you know potentially could have been lethal it's really scary yes i mean i've had alcohol poisoning
33:08probably twice and you really feel like you're gonna die yeah well people do know yeah yeah yeah i was
33:16about to say it's a really sobering thought but that's probably not not the best story
33:19really it's got really like deep and it but it is really serious yeah i met um i was doing a talk
33:25the other day and there was questions at the end and i was talking about my book and talking but you
33:30know it's kind of like a sober curious topic there was a woman in the audience and she she said you
33:35know my husband she was she was obviously really hurting and she was angry and she said my husband is
33:39an alcoholic and i you know i don't know what to do and i how do i get him to stop and she was so
33:46upset and i really i really i really didn't know what i could say to her because it might it is so
33:52painful and if the person isn't ready to stop themselves apart from really role modeling yourself
33:59and you know encouraging them you can't force them to stop but do you have any kind of comments i've
34:06been asked this question thousands of times and i always say well give them a copy of my book
34:12because you know there's a chance they might read a read a bit of it and they might um reflect a bit
34:18on what they're drinking but also never confront them when they're drunk yeah it's a thing because
34:23very often people get men get very drunk and and belligerent but often the next day they're
34:29apologetic you know that's the time to confront them but they're feeling guilty exactly and then
34:35and then explain how it's hurtful it is to you and and how you know it repeats itself and and they
34:41will almost certainly then at least concede they need to change and then you've got to then be ready
34:46to help them make the change yeah and that could be probably it's best for a gp go to a gp with that
34:54person and then you're in the system and then also you know the gps do have a sort of status which
34:59the gp gives you advice and you don't follow that there's not there's more stigma so you're beginning to
35:03sort of put more pressure on from different directions so you'd advise going to see your
35:08doctor because i think for some people they maybe think maybe this isn't a problem for my doctor
35:12but you think that it's worth doing going straight to something like aa is is often really challenging
35:17because i mean that's kind of well you know am i that bad and and you may be you may be and it may
35:24not be and aa really probably doesn't suit the majority of people if it does suit you you know and
35:30you know then then it's great it's very supportive you know you've got yeah your mentor etc
35:35but going into in a large group you know 50 60 people a lot of people who drink they do that and
35:41they say they're not we're not quite the same as the people in there you know and and there are
35:44different reasons why people drink too much it's not just that they lose control others are drinking
35:48to do with mental health problems aa aren't particularly sympathetic to that you know it's all about
35:53alcohol is the problem not your brain so you're dealing with your mental health problems needs some
35:57other approach and your gp is definitely some possibility there's an option of finding the
36:02right for support through there that probably really chimes for you millie doesn't it because
36:06i remember when we spoke about your book originally you were saying to me that aa just doesn't feel
36:11like the right fit for a lot of women especially yeah as something comforting about the being in the
36:17group and having like sharing your experiences in a room of other people that all get it there is
36:22something about 12-step that is i think i'll do a 12-step program at some point i think everyone
36:28would benefit from doing a 12-step program i would agree but i think a lot of the aa for me i think it
36:36helps a lot of people not saying i mean it i think it's really great but it feels i'm quite male
36:42dominated and quite like stuck in the past there are new outlets aren't there you've got a great
36:47community online where people feel that they can come and they can speak to each other and there's lots
36:51sober coaches that do online courses you know if it's not accessible to you to do private sessions
36:55there are like group courses um there's i mean there's so many more people talking about it now
37:01there's a lot of podcasts there's a lot of books um i think it's getting that the support and having
37:07other people to speak to that are going through a similar thing it's really helpful well both of your
37:12books hold so many tips and having read them both i do think that just having access to stuff like
37:19this is really really important so i would encourage everybody to read both books because
37:23they are excellent and um speaking of tips i always ask my guests in every episode what their
37:29one tip for for better wellness would be and what their one non-negotiable would be when it comes to
37:34their health i wonder if we can start with you david what would yours be i just want to say one thing
37:38to support you and i want to talk about the impact on your children because there's no
37:45unquestionably what you have done will have an amazing impact on your children there is no
37:51question about it and the reason the reason i say that is no sorry it just makes me feel so emotional
37:59yeah i bet do you want to pause for a second you have you you've transformed how many kids you have
38:04two you've transformed the lives of three people and the reason i say that is that about five years
38:11ago i did a program you and yours in the bbc for program um it did a phone-in on parents with
38:20alcoholism the most phoned-in program on you and yours ever they all were ringing in about parents
38:27drinking most of them were women and many of them were in their 60s and 70s and their whole lives
38:34had been blighted by having drunk parents i was amazed by the number who'd rung in i was amazed by
38:42the fact that it's a kind of enduring harm so the fact your kids aren't going to suffer that is
38:47fantastic and you know use that in many ways is the message to get across to mothers you're doing
38:54it not for you you're doing it for your kids and that is ultimately the kid my girls were the ultimate
39:00like motivation to stop um they were six months and two when i stopped so they're now um nearly four
39:09and five and they'll have no memory of meeting exactly yeah they will never have been a part of
39:14their life and i don't i don't want to make you feel emotional but you should be really really proud
39:18of yourself i am like i'm a very emotional person it's like what i'd say the gift is is also the
39:24emotional sobriety that you know you stop drinking the toxic substance but then you do then you can
39:31really start doing the work on yourself to become fully emotionally sober and that's really the work
39:36that i'm doing now and i think that is really the thing that um can transform your life when we're able
39:44to kind of move all of the crap aside and step into the version of ourselves that we we think about
39:50when we think about our highest self or our best self i think that's really really powerful isn't
39:56it and often makes me feel quite emotional as well because when we talk about doing the work yeah
40:01it's it's hard like that isn't it it's not easy stuff thank you so much for sharing that experience
40:06and also for for pulling on that thread david i want to ask you really what your one wellness
40:11non-negotiable is and whether you have one i'm sure you have loads i was thinking about this i was
40:15like what my one be and it's like would it be like having a protein rich breakfast or would it
40:20and i was like and all those things like doing my meditation and then working out are great
40:25i think being really honest and clear with yourself about anything in your life that's making you
40:31unhappy whether it's alcohol whether it's a person whether whatever it is like a toxic habit
40:38don't wait to change like just do it because you never know how long you've got left life is short
40:46and if something is stealing your joy like make the change don't wait thank you so much for joining
40:54me for this episode it's been such a pleasure to speak to you both
40:57you
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