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00:00This was a cold and calculated murder.
00:16There's always a breaking point in an investigation.
00:24The timeline of events didn't add up.
00:30It was crucial we supported our family contact.
00:44I just felt boom, boom on my face.
00:47And I remember just being so still.
00:50And I felt it three times.
00:53And then I heard the doctor say, he's gone.
00:56What struck us was, it's the fact that all the people involved, from the victim to the suspects, are under the age of 18.
01:03Nobody wins in these situations.
01:07The family of the deceased, Chiron, will suffer forever.
01:11It's very sad that all you take back from Manchester is a cardboard box with your son's belongings in it.
01:16I first met the Webb family when I was tasked to support them, following the tragic news that their son, Chiron Webb, aged 15, had been stabbed.
01:34From that moment, I became their point of contact in a murder investigation.
01:41My name is Sarah Marsden, and I'm a family liaison officer, referred to as a FLO.
01:46And I was the family liaison officer in the case of Chiron Webb.
01:51Family liaison officer is the person specially trained to be the link person between a major incident team who is involved in a murder or a manslaughter.
02:01So you support the family through the process of the investigation and then the judicial system at the end.
02:07My job primarily is a police officer, so I am there to investigate, but I'm also there to support the family through this crisis.
02:18It's a death, it's somebody's loved one, and it's still traumatic.
02:22On the 18th of October, I came on duty and I was informed that a young 15-year-old boy had been stabbed.
02:40My name is Stuart Wilkinson.
02:42In 2017, I was a senior investigating officer with Greater Manchester Police, also known as an SIO.
02:48I was responsible for leading the investigation into the murder of Chiron Webb.
02:54He got called in on the 999 call by one of the residents on the housing estates in Mostyn, which is a town within the suburbs of Greater Manchester.
03:02Responding to the 999 call, response officers would have got the blue lights on and got there as soon as possible to see if any medical treatment would be required.
03:12The 999 call would have been diverted to the ambulance staff as well to ensure that they can get on scene as soon as possible.
03:18Chiron Webb was found on the floor, unconscious, on the junction of Wesley Avenue in Mostyn.
03:25Quite a built-up area, lots of houses and not too far from a main arterial route into Manchester.
03:32The police officers straight away saved life and limb to start with, treated the victim.
03:36He had a stab wound to his chest. He also had a stab wound to his back. Chiron was driven to Manchester Hall Infirmary.
03:45Very quickly, more patrols came. They would have recognised the fact that they really need to cordon the scene off to try and make it as sterile as possible.
03:53It was on the junction of a housing estate, so difficult to manage, because they had to cordon off busy roads and the junction itself.
04:02We need to ensure that we can preserve the evidence so that we get those forensics, which may assist us in the investigation.
04:07After I picked the investigation up, I went to the City of Manchester Division for a briefing around half past nine to get a better prognosis of the 15-year-old's condition.
04:19I was informed that Chiron was very ill and more than likely to die, because he'd had 60 minutes of oxygen starved to his brain.
04:28That's why, albeit he hadn't died at the time, we treated this investigation as a murder investigation.
04:35A family lasing house is one of the first resources that we request.
04:38We definitely need them on day one of the investigation, because one of the main focuses is to try and find out who the victim is.
04:44I once found out we need to go and speak to the family to try and get as much information as we can about the victim, I deployed the family lasing officer, which was Sarah.
04:55Hello, PC Sarah Marsden. Yes, yes. The 15-year-old, Moston Lane, to stabbing.
05:02Yeah, OK, I'll go meet the family at the hospital.
05:04On the 18th of October, I had gone on shift, my normal duty.
05:17I was on call as a family lasing officer, which meant that you were on standby for any incidents coming in overnight.
05:24I'd arrived in work probably about half past six. I put my uniform on.
05:28That particular morning, I was having a new student officer come to work with me, so I was preparing myself for the first day.
05:37I got a phone call, which basically just tells me very few facts.
05:42A 15-year-old boy had been stabbed overnight, and he was on the coronary care heart unit at Manchester Royal Infirmary.
05:50I was asked to go and meet the family, introduce myself, and take it from there.
05:54I have to change out of my uniform, because family lasing officers tend to work in plain clothes.
06:01It breaks down barriers, and it's more appropriate.
06:05So I go to the hospital.
06:09My job primarily is a police officer, so I am there to investigate, but I'm also there to support the family through this crisis.
06:19And my ability is, due to my nursing background, I can differentiate between the two and offer support.
06:31Kyron was on a ventilator. He effectively, at that point, was brain dead.
06:38Whilst I'm at the hospital, the investigation team, the major incident team, are continuing with the inquiries.
06:44The crime scene, it was outside people's houses.
06:48We wanted to do some house-to-house, because clearly, it's all about identifying witnesses who may have seen the incident.
06:54We identified people who had heard a commotion outside the homes.
06:58One of the residents described how Kyron was lent up against the fence and seemed to be struggling from some injuries.
07:05There were witnesses that had heard something, but nobody had actually directly seen the attack.
07:09And there's a whole host of different resources that are required.
07:16My team is full of detectives.
07:18They'll be allocated out different roles, mainly for outside inquiries to start with,
07:22so we can understand and gather as much evidence as possible, such as through house-to-house and CCTV.
07:28And I liaised with the crime scene manager.
07:30We discussed together some of the forensic testing that we needed to consider,
07:34that there was cars in the street, had the suspect touched the car, was there going to be a fingerprint there or DNA transfer.
07:41The knife had been used, and one of the main things that we wanted to focus on was how we could actually see if we could find that knife.
07:48We then deployed specialist search teams to look in gardens, grids, all different areas that potentially a knife could have been discarded.
07:56If we found that, that could have some key DNA or forensics on it that could link the suspect to the scene and if it had blood of Chiron.
08:05But, yeah, it's been to numerous scenes where we've had to make some fast-track decisions to get an understanding and a grip of the investigation.
08:14An incident like this in the middle of a built-up area clearly causes shockwaves within the community.
08:19Nobody wants to see any kind of violent incidents in the community such as this.
08:25But I do think the fact that this was a 15-year-old lab did have a particular impact.
08:38I was having cheesy chips and beans, and then my eldest son called me and said,
08:46Oh, mum, dad said, you should call him.
08:49Kyren's in trouble.
08:51My name is Rachel Webb, and I'm the proud mother of Kyren Webb.
08:55I'm a mother of six.
08:57I have four boys and two girls.
08:59I was born and raised, and we spent the majority of our life living in London.
09:05I met Kyren's dad when we were quite young.
09:08We got married in April 2020, but through the years, we didn't seem to be going on the same pathway in the same way.
09:17So he moved to Manchester, and we co-parented Kyren and his dad.
09:22They were really close, and he had asked if he could spend some time at his dad's in the holidays and things,
09:28and then be with me as well as we kind of split it like that.
09:31Kyren's parents, though they were separated, they seemed to have a good relationship.
09:35But I called his dad, and I just heard, like, they've stabbed him up, Kyren's dead.
09:42And I'm looking at the phone thinking, is this real, is this, or am I actually in a dream?
09:48Second pop came, I put the phone back to my ear, and I said, where's my son?
09:52Put my son on the phone.
09:54And he said that Kyren was in hospital, Manchester Royal Infirmary.
09:59At that point, a private number call was now coming through to my phone.
10:03It was a male police officer, and he said to me that there had been an incident,
10:09and that Kyren had been hurt, and that he had sustained life-threatening injuries.
10:15And they said to me, we know I'm in London, and if they are to arrange a police escort
10:21to blue light me to Manchester, could I come?
10:24And she said, yeah.
10:25And he asked me if a doctor or a nurse had spoken to me yet, and I said no.
10:31And they put somebody on the phone, and she reiterated that, you know, he had sustained
10:37life-threatening injuries, he was currently in theatre, and they were working on him.
10:42Now, I probably was in shock.
10:44There was nothing connecting my emotions or my brain and my words together at the time.
10:49And I called a friend.
10:51I said, Tyren, I need someone to come and get me now.
10:54I need to go to Manchester.
10:55I gave him my address, and he said, I'm going to be there in 15 minutes.
10:58We met with the police, and the police were blue-lighting me.
11:01My friend, Tyren, continued to follow the police car, and he was coming with me.
11:06When we got to the hospital, there was a plainclothes policeman and woman waiting for me.
11:13And now, I know something serious is happening.
11:16And she said to me that Tyren had been stabbed.
11:18And I remember asking her, where?
11:21And she said, he's hot.
11:23A siren noise came in my head.
11:26I felt someone touch my arm.
11:28And it's like, when it brought me back into the moment, there was a doctor standing by me.
11:33I don't know where he came from or how he even got there.
11:36And he was talking, and I heard him say that Tyren only had a 1% chance of surviving.
11:47And I heard a scream.
11:54It was a noise of just gut-wrenching pain and sorrow.
12:03And it was coming from me.
12:06But when I looked at the doctor's eyes, they were so sad and teary.
12:16He said to me that he did everything that he could, but it was of his medical opinion that Kyren was brain dead.
12:28They were effectively keeping him alive so that allow family time to be with him.
12:36Karen's parents were in complete shock.
12:40It ranged from sort of complete disbelief to moments of almost despair.
12:49Collapsing corridors, lots of crying.
12:51The trauma was intense.
12:53The first time meeting Sarah, I just remember her offering that emotional support.
13:02My mental health nursing comes into play because people are going through the most traumatic experience they're going to ever experience in their lives.
13:10For me, it's just having an awareness of where they might be at.
13:14At that time, I didn't really know what a family liaison officer was or what they did.
13:18But it was somebody there that I was told would be my point of call during the process of what was happening.
13:25There was a plan set by the doctors where they would have to do brain stem tests and they would be completed by two separate doctors.
13:34Once they were complete and they were quite certain that there was no brain activity, they would have that discussion with the family.
13:40Now, I know something serious is happening, but I still am not able to retain it.
13:46But I'm panicking because I'm scared.
13:47My nursing background helps me to be able to maybe put it into different words that they can understand to just repeat what's been said.
13:56Sarah would set that anchor cell just to help me to stay still, to give me that grounding.
14:02I attended the meeting with the doctor when they were telling them that they were going to do the brain stem tests.
14:11Sarah supported me in all meetings.
14:12She would have the notes and then she would go over things with me and just to make sure that I fully understood what had been said.
14:18You know, they're numbed by the shock and they are trying to listen to the information that's been given to them because it's extremely important information.
14:26But it's overwhelming and it's a matter of just going through the process really.
14:32They have to carry out some tests.
14:36They shine light in his eyes.
14:38They do things looking for responses and reflexes and there was no response.
14:43So they proclaim that he's brain dead.
14:46There was no chance of Kyron surviving his injuries.
14:51It was very sad.
14:52As family liaison officers, we can't promise anything.
14:55But what we can do is guide the family into saying we will do our absolute utmost to find who's responsible for this crime.
15:02And we will hopefully do our utmost to bring them to justice.
15:04Also, during that time, it's just to get a small family tree going so that I understand who everybody is, important information, contact numbers, addresses, things like that.
15:15Really, it's just to gain information so that I've got that information to take back to the institute room.
15:19It's a really tough job on the first day for a family liaison officer because everybody reacts to these kind of things differently.
15:26You really do need to have resilience, flexibility and get trust within the family so they can start to work with us and help us with the investigation.
15:35The crime scene was in place for three days while we did the full examination and the searches.
15:45One common thing that happens at a crime scene is that the suspects often will attend and speak to police officers at the scene just to try and get some information of what's going on and see if the police officer will disclose anything.
15:57Just to get an idea of if there's any lines of inquiry on this occasion, a male did approach a police officer, a detective on one of my teams, asking about details.
16:10Sarah informed me somebody had kept visiting the site and asking questions and so forth with different officers.
16:17And so they looked into it.
16:19And it was established that that person had actually given false details to the detective.
16:24It became another line of inquiry.
16:27Day two, I met the family in the afternoon at Manchester Royal Infirmary.
16:31Sarah, the family liaison officer, had arranged for the meeting and we went down together.
16:37Karen was still on the life support machine at the time.
16:40Stuart was very, very informative and very open and transparent.
16:43I always felt I was part of that investigation and part of the process as opposed to being a spectator of the process that was going on around me.
16:55Stuart explained to me that when they had found Kyren, that at the scene he had a bag and inside the bag was a knife.
17:04It was completely sealed in a wrapper.
17:06At that point, I wasn't told much about it.
17:09So I didn't know what sort of knife, was it Kyren's knife, was he going to use the knife or, you know, there wasn't much that they could give me.
17:16Nobody seemed to understand or know why that was there.
17:18This is probably information they didn't want to hear, but it's information I had to tell them because I don't want them to have any surprises or hear of anybody else.
17:26To hear that, that was absolutely devastating.
17:29It brought to the focus how serious the situation was and how serious things were.
17:38What on earth was going on?
17:40What was happening for Kyren?
17:41Why was he so scared that he thought he needed to carry a knife?
17:44Like, who are these people?
17:46Who are these people to Kyren?
17:47Kyren lived with Rachel and his other siblings in London.
18:05For me, being a mum is probably one of the best jobs or the most important and meaningful role I've ever played in my whole entire life.
18:13Kyren was a very loving child and he was very attached to me.
18:19He would scream and always want to be with me and around me.
18:24He was very, very loyal and he loved hard.
18:27He liked to be involved, he liked to interact, but there was also a quiet part of Kyren as well.
18:33Sometimes he would take himself away from that really heightened environment and crowd and just sit in his room, maybe go on his console, and that was his time to recharge his batteries.
18:43When Kyren was about 13, he had started to get into some trouble at school for, like, was minor behaviours, like, you know, just not concentrating in the class.
18:54That's when the school started to do, like, referrals to speech and language and things like that, to have assessments carried out.
19:01Kyren is the only child that I had that had struggles, self-regulating emotions, and, you know, that got quite overwhelmed in heightened environments and would sometimes need intervention to help him to co-regulate and to calm down.
19:20Kyren was easily influenced in the sense that he didn't really perceive, he couldn't really see the risk or understand.
19:27Kyren was getting himself in a little bit of trouble at London.
19:30The suggestion was put forward that he goes to live with his dad in the Manchester area.
19:34His dad didn't have any other children at the home living with him, so it was more of a calm and quiet environment.
19:40Kyren was quite looking forward to it and initially embraced it and got on very well, started school, was progressing extremely well and enjoying living with that.
19:50He came home to visit Mum and his siblings when he could. He had an aim in life to become an architect. He had a vision of where he wanted to go in life.
20:00He was able to re-engage back into school. He made a small group of friends down there and he was doing really well.
20:08I felt it was a better environment for Kyren to be able to develop and reach that full potential.
20:13So at Greater Manchester, we have a dedicated specialist CCTV team.
20:20I sat down with them and we worked out parameters around the housing estate of where they should actually concentrate their efforts to try and locate more CCTV to help us understand what had happened at the scene.
20:31That was a major line of inquiry for us.
20:34There was a CCTV camera that actually captured it right over the top of the actual attack. That gave us a very good understanding of the kind of attack that had taken place.
20:44That was shown from a CCTV footage that they'd managed to retrieve from a local house. It appears that Kyren, he'd been with two boys.
20:52You can tell from the CCTV the way they're interacting. It looks like he knows them. It looks like a pre-arranged meet.
20:59They'd been seen talking for some time.
21:01The way the demeanour is between the two lads and Kyren does tend to suggest that there is some sort of disagreement going on.
21:08That conversation went on for probably about 20 minutes and then it's only they started walking up the road.
21:15And then for some reason, for reasons I don't know, all of a sudden that escalated that conversation where one of the boys pulled an eye, stabbed Kyren in the chest and then the two males ran away.
21:26And then 30 seconds later, one of them returned and delivered another stab wound to the back of Kyren.
21:36The main things that a family liaison officer has got to have is really good people skills.
21:48Luckily for me, he got a very experienced police officer to support me in dealing with the family.
21:54The role of a family liaison officer, I think, sometimes can be underestimated and it's absolutely crucial to the SIO.
22:02They're the eyes and ears for the SIO to start with.
22:05I would be distracted on the first day with numerous other inquiries.
22:09I've got to be really resilient and be prepared to not only give tough messages, but obviously soak up a lot of emotion.
22:18We get called into a meeting with the doctor and I saw a tear hit the desk and the doctor is sad and his head is down.
22:37The doctor's asking us about turning off the life support machine.
22:41And I'm looking around the room and everybody's looking at me because I think, how can you ask me to kill my son?
22:50I came alive when I became a mum. How can you ask me to kill him?
22:55This is a decision I do not want to make.
22:57And the doctor had said that if we didn't turn off the life support machine, that Kyren would remain in a vegetative state until his body then passes away.
23:07It was an impossible situation. She didn't want to part from her beloved son, but she also had to make the decision that she didn't want him to live a life where he was not going to come back to being the son that she remembered.
23:22And I thought, Rachel, it would be so selfish of you to keep him here for your own gain and benefit because this would not be what Kyren would want.
23:33I stood up and I said, turn it off.
23:37I was present at that time, yes, when the machines were switched off. It was very quiet and very somber.
23:45I held his hand and I closed my eyes and I put my head on his chest.
23:49And, you know, when people say that when you die or when you're going to die in that situation, like your life kind of plays out in front of you.
23:59That's what it was like. It was like a show reel.
24:01I saw myself pregnant. I saw myself giving birth. I saw his little gummy grins and his dribbles as he's drooling as a baby.
24:10I saw him dancing. I saw him laughing. I saw his smile. I could hear him saying, Mum. I felt his hugs.
24:17I could just see it and it was just there and I could hear him singing in my head. And then I just felt boom, boom, on my face.
24:24And I remember just being so still. And I felt it three times. And then I heard the doctor say, he's gone.
24:33Normally, the identification will need to be done. So I'll escort them to the hospital, usually the Royal Oldham Hospital, where the postmortems take place.
24:47I would take a very brief statement from them to say who that person was so that that information can then be continuity for the coroner.
24:55The process with Chiron was slightly different. I got Rachel to do that at the bedside.
25:00So she was able to inform me that it was Chiron, his full name and his date of birth. And the statement was taken. She signed it.
25:13The whole process within itself is so traumatic. It's really difficult. It's hard to understand.
25:20You know, you want to just lay in bed and cry and shut yourself from the world and just give up.
25:27The role of Sarah was what helped me to stay afloat.
25:34I was made aware that other family members had turned up and wanted to see him.
25:38So I was able to enable that process to take place, support them through their, their opposite grief.
25:44Sarah helped and prepared me for having to do the tribute the following day after Chiron's passing.
25:51And she explained that, you know, the tribute would go out in the Manchester Evening News.
25:56She talked to me, explained to me what it was, what the expectation was and what would happen and supported me through the writing of it.
26:03One of the main lines of inquiry we wanted to develop was an intelligence picture around Chiron.
26:11Chiron had a knife on him.
26:13It might actually give me some understanding and mindset of Chiron at the time, whether he's going through some bullying or he's had an altercation with anybody.
26:22The kind of people he was dealing with.
26:24It gives us another line of inquiry for the investigation.
26:26They went to Manchester Academy, so that was an obvious place for us to visit to see if we could locate any friends or associates that his family were unaware of.
26:35We spoke to various people.
26:37And some of the information we got back was that Chiron was involved in some sort of drug debt.
26:42It did sort of give us a little bit of a picture that this could be a reason why Chiron had met up with these two lads.
26:50And it could be a motive for why he'd been attacked and why he'd been murdered on that night.
26:58I was going to an event at work and Chiron called me and asked me if I could give him the sum of money around £90.
27:09I didn't have it at the time and said that I would send it to him at the end of the week, like nearer towards my payday.
27:16And he said he wanted to get a PlayStation 3 and it was a bit mind-boggling to me because I'd just purchased him the PlayStation 4 for Christmas.
27:26So I didn't understand why he wanted to buy a different model.
27:31A few weeks after, when I was speaking to his dad, his dad had given kind of enough resources to buy it.
27:39The CCTV was the most key evidence that we'd managed to obtain.
27:47We did get a breakthrough where the CCTV specialist that we'd used on the investigation found some footage,
27:53which fit the time of the murder, of two people running across a main road in the distance on the CCTV into Scarborough Street.
28:02That was significant for us because Scarborough Street was a cul-de-sac with no way of getting out at the bottom.
28:10My thoughts were, if they were the suspects, that they either lived in Scarborough Street or had associates in Scarborough Street.
28:17So that was something that we dealt with as a positive line of inquiry.
28:21On the assumption that the two people running across the street could be our attackers,
28:30what we did with that was to research all 34 houses on Scarborough Street.
28:35It was established that a lad called Michael Iderhan lived in one of the houses.
28:40So Michael Iderhan was a 17-year-old man who was known to the police for knife crime.
28:46He had been convicted for some knife crime offences in the past.
28:49That was of interest to me.
28:51In the office, we were doing some background searches.
28:54It was on our police systems.
28:56And another detective on my team saw Michael's picture
29:00and recognised him to be someone who had approached the crime scene the day before,
29:05asking for information of what had happened.
29:08There was a picture building around Michael Iderhan that definitely came of interest to us.
29:14Whilst we were doing background searches on Iderhan,
29:17we also started to look at Kyron's phone data.
29:21We found it was linked to Michael Iderhan's brother.
29:23So there was a direct link there between Kyron and Iderhan's.
29:27The CCTV footage was quite grainy
29:29and didn't give a definitive identification of Michael.
29:33It is someone that clearly could have fitted the description,
29:35same build, similar features.
29:38That was enough then for me to arrest Michael for the murder of Kyron Webb.
29:42We executed, I think it was three warrants on the morning of the 20th.
29:55We arrested Michael at his home address at Scarborough Street.
29:59It locked his house down as a crime scene.
30:02At the arrest, his mum was present and she was asked questions
30:06about Michael's whereabouts on the night of the murder.
30:09She confirmed that Michael had got home just after seven,
30:14which again fitted in with the CCTV of two males running down Scarborough Street.
30:19She provided a statement for the investigation to that effect,
30:23probably at the time not understanding its relevance.
30:25That was key evidence for us.
30:27We did other arrests as well
30:28because we knew Michael had a number of associates.
30:32The second male who was with him at the time,
30:34we still didn't know their identity.
30:35We thought that potentially one of the associates we arrested at the same time
30:39as Michael could have been the second man.
30:44On the day of the arrest,
30:45we interviewed Michael and his associates
30:48and we managed to eliminate the other two people who were arrested.
30:52During the day, another name came into the inquiry
30:55and he was on our system,
30:57but we didn't have actual picture of him.
30:59The CCTV officers, they had expended their CCTV search to before the murder
31:06and located Michael and some friends on a bus who had just arrived in Mostyn.
31:10On the bus was a young lad who was wearing a jacket
31:15that looked very similar to the jacket that was worn by the second male in the CCTV.
31:20At the scene of the attack,
31:21I tasked out two detectives to go to this male's house.
31:27The 16-year-old lad was located there.
31:31He looked like the man on the bus who was with Michael at the time
31:33and he was arrested.
31:35The fact that they were so young,
31:36it does make you bring home to you.
31:39This really is the consequences of young people carrying knives
31:43and I don't think people realise at that age what heartache it can bring.
31:50One of the key things for the family as an officer
31:52is to make contact with the family as soon as possible after the arrest
31:57to confirm that there is some positive news, progress has been made.
32:02I was able to give that information to Rachel.
32:04She'd shared with me the news that the two young men had been arrested
32:10and said that because we were so upset the day before,
32:14they'd actually been arrested the day before,
32:16but she just wanted to give me a time to come to terms with everything what had gone on.
32:21That's probably hard to hear after you've just, you know,
32:24switched off the life support for your son.
32:27Difficult because obviously she's still grieving
32:29and will be grieving for a long time.
32:32But it's some relief.
32:34We have to do something for Chiron now for his memory
32:36and we have to get justice for him.
32:38So it is nice to be able to say that we've actually secured an arrest.
32:44Rachel had no knowledge of who these two boys were.
32:54There's always an autopsy when there's a sudden death of any description,
32:59but when it's a murder, there is a home office pathologist
33:03will be actioned to come and do the autopsy.
33:08The autopsy is part of the case.
33:12You wouldn't be able to proceed at trial if you didn't have the full cause of death.
33:17Chiron had the stab wound to his chest which had entered his heart.
33:22He also had a stab wound to his back
33:25and he also had a head injury, which was determined by a fall.
33:32After the autopsy takes place, I am given the information by the SAO
33:37what information I can give to the family.
33:40I will be that person that gives them the information.
33:42To try and explain to the family what the whole home office post-mortem is all about,
33:49it is a really difficult conversation to have at a time when there are so many different emotions going on.
33:54The cause of death was the knife used went seven centimetres into Chiron's heart
34:02and seven centimetres, the knife wound to his back, punctured the lung.
34:08Chiron, he had significant internal bleeding.
34:12He suffocated in his own blood.
34:13His brain had been stabbing for 60 minutes at the scene.
34:22When interviewing suspects for murders, I usually have an interview advisor
34:26to monitor the interviews so they can actually see what each suspect is saying
34:30in case one starts playing the other one off.
34:33On this occasion, we use what we call stage disclosure
34:36where we don't tell the suspect everything
34:39because we want to get an unbiased and open account from them.
34:44Eventually, Michael admitted that he was the man in the CCTV.
34:47He admitted being the person who stabbed Chiron.
34:51There was a number of different reasons why Michael said he stabbed Chiron,
34:57which gave some unreliability to his account.
35:00The first one was that he said he was in self-defence.
35:03We really need to scrutinise the CCTV to negate that.
35:08We're obviously aware that Chiron's got a knife in his bag,
35:11so we had to go back all the way through the footage
35:15from the minute they met all the way up to the actual stabbing
35:18just to make sure that Chiron didn't draw the knife
35:21or there was any threats.
35:23We painstakingly went through it with a fine-tooth comb.
35:27We were more than satisfied that at no time
35:29did Chiron threaten Michael with a knife
35:31or certainly didn't do anything that caused a good self-defence
35:37for Michael to rely on.
35:44There was another account to say
35:46that Chiron had been disrespectful to a rap video.
35:49He said there was a disagreement over a song
35:51that Michael had performed and uploaded to YouTube.
35:57We've never, ever been able to obtain details of the interaction,
36:03so it's never been proven indefinitely,
36:07you know, without doubt that that was the reason.
36:13Both Michael and the other male involved,
36:16they both accepted that they were the people on CCTV
36:19at the altercation.
36:21I would suggest that Michael was quite naive
36:23in some of his responses.
36:26The fact that he's admitted that he was a man on the CCTV
36:28was a massive help to the investigation
36:30and on the 21st of October 2017,
36:35Michael Aydon and another male were both charged with murder.
36:37I made the family aware
36:39that two suspects had been charged
36:43with the murder of Chiron
36:45and that was greeted with some relief.
36:49And positive news as well for them
36:50that we've got the killers in custody.
36:56Most trials are usually between one and two weeks.
37:00You prepare yourself for being present
37:03and just being there for them each day.
37:06It's unknown territory for families.
37:07They don't know.
37:08They've never been through the justice system.
37:10Leading up to the trial,
37:11I had not got a scooby
37:14on what I was going to experience.
37:16Sarah was that navigator
37:19through the whole criminal proceedings
37:21around the murder trial.
37:25I always explain to families before trial
37:29a little bit about courtrooms
37:30and also if something be said about Chiron
37:34or something about the way they perceived
37:36he lived his life.
37:38You cannot comment at the time.
37:39You have to remain silent.
37:40You have to sort of listen to the information
37:43and just be respectful in the courtroom.
37:46I was really nervous, really, really nervous.
37:50And I was so scared that the part I made
37:52was going to be something really sinister and bad
37:55and I didn't really want to hear it.
37:58A lot of that information is quite hard to hear
38:01but it's good to know before their families get into the courtroom
38:04and allowing them to vent any concerns that they have
38:07prior to reaching that point.
38:09We went up to Manchester for the trial in April
38:22and Sarah was with us every day.
38:24Crown Court's a big building in Manchester.
38:27It's quite overwhelming.
38:29You get security checks as you enter the building.
38:32You then escorted to courtroom
38:34which may, at short notice, change.
38:36When we got to the court,
38:39we were taken into a room
38:41by Stephen and Sarah
38:44and they showed us the CCTV footage
38:49before it was played in court
38:51just to prepare me for what was going to be seen.
38:55I hadn't seen Kyron alive
39:01for five and a bit months
39:04so it was lovely seeing him alive.
39:08It was lovely seeing him walk.
39:10It was lovely seeing his clothes
39:12filled with a person inside them.
39:15It was lovely seeing the bag on him whole.
39:19It was lovely seeing the bandana with no stains.
39:22It was just nice.
39:25I wanted to just lean into the screen
39:29and pull him out.
39:31I wanted to kiss the lips that were smiling.
39:33I wanted to hold his hands that was in his pocket.
39:36I just wanted to hug him.
39:37There was no sound on the CCTV
39:39and I was just dying to hear his voice.
39:42And then as he gets up to the Barclays Bank
39:45where Michael and the accomplice are seated
39:47and seeing that interaction,
39:51it was hard because
39:53there weren't any visual anger that I could see.
39:59I don't think Kyron,
40:01one, he didn't know he was in danger,
40:03two, he didn't understand the severity of what was going on.
40:05He would have seen the knife before the knife came down on him.
40:08Michael must have said something.
40:10There must have been some menace or anger in his words.
40:12But in the silence of this vision,
40:17it just wasn't there.
40:23When they stabbed him,
40:24because he probably was absolutely petrified,
40:28when I saw him stagger,
40:29I struggled
40:30because then I thought,
40:32my baby boy is hurt.
40:34When I saw him lean on the wall
40:36and he was pulling at his coat,
40:37I thought,
40:38he's having an aspartame attack,
40:38he can't breathe,
40:39I need to get him in his inhalers.
40:40Then when he leant back
40:42and pulled up his trousers,
40:43I thought,
40:43I keep telling this boy to put on a belt.
40:45And then when they stabbed him again
40:47and he dropped down,
40:48he jumped back up and I said,
40:49there's my boy,
40:49there's his fire.
40:51He's a roaring lion,
40:52there's his fire.
40:53And then I saw him walk around the corner.
40:56And then I knew
40:56that
40:57he took that final fall
41:00and he was never going to get up.
41:02When they were playing the CCTV footage
41:04in the court,
41:05his dad wasn't able to
41:07sit in the courtroom.
41:10He found it too difficult.
41:14The family area,
41:16Manchester Crown Court,
41:17is sort of a side-on situation
41:20with the defendants being in the middle.
41:23We were all sat down in the pew.
41:24I remember hearing chains.
41:26Then when we sat down
41:28to the right of me,
41:30Michael was just standing there.
41:33I...
41:33I...
41:35I think I was stunned.
41:41And I remember looking at him thinking,
41:43you look like a child,
41:44but because they've pled guilty,
41:46it meant that
41:47they didn't need to give
41:49any further explanation
41:50to what had happened
41:51and why.
41:52It really annoyed me
41:55because I wanted to know
41:57what happened
41:58and why it happened.
41:59And I wanted them to explain to me
42:01what on earth
42:01what Kyron did to them
42:02that they felt warranted
42:04his life being taken.
42:10The knife that killed Kyron
42:13was not found.
42:14The sentence was,
42:15for Michael Idahern,
42:17was 15 years.
42:18Not having the murder weapon
42:20would have been a serious challenge
42:22if we hadn't got
42:23the clear CCTV footage
42:25that we had.
42:26Due to the strength
42:28in the CCTV,
42:29the evidence in this case,
42:30both males pleaded guilty.
42:33Michael pleaded guilty
42:33to the murder of Kyron,
42:36where the other male
42:36pleaded guilty to a manslaughter.
42:38He ended up with two years.
42:41I felt when we got a result
42:42and someone convicted at court,
42:44I felt it was a very rewarding role
42:46that fulfilled me,
42:48the fact that we had made a difference
42:49to the families
42:49who had gone through
42:50such a traumatic time.
42:51That time wasn't significant really
42:54and quite probably difficult
42:55to deal with for the family.
42:57I still feel disappointed.
42:59There are times
43:00when I get really angry.
43:02Our past catches up with us
43:04all of the time
43:05and I think
43:07he has a 15-year sentence in prison,
43:13but he also has, as I do,
43:15a lifetime sentence of murder.
43:21I remember you
43:35as being just a lovely person,
43:39just somebody that was approachable
43:41even in all this trauma
43:42and this turmoil.
43:44Even though you didn't know me,
43:46you had a smile on your face
43:48and you put me at ease
43:49from that moment I met you.
43:52I just remember you
43:53just being there
43:54all the time.
43:56So whenever I felt
43:57completely overwhelmed
43:59and completely choked up
44:00and you could see
44:01she's going to have a breakdown,
44:02she needs me,
44:03and you were just there.
44:04You always had a hug waiting.
44:06I was this smashed up pavement
44:08and you just seemed to know
44:11where all the cracks were
44:12and then your support
44:13was like cement.
44:15You made me
44:15and all my family
44:16feel that we belonged
44:18and you went above
44:20and beyond the call of duty.
44:22I absolutely adore you
44:23and so do the kids.
44:25We adore you.
44:25We talk about you at home
44:26like you're my mum.
44:28Honestly.
44:30But no, it is amazing.
44:32You are absolutely amazing.
44:35Thank you for all those words.
44:36I mean, well,
44:38I feel honoured to have met you
44:40and I'm sorry
44:41it's under those circumstances
44:42because you are truly
44:43a lovely lady
44:44who, you know,
44:46has put a lot into her family
44:47and the loss of Chiron is huge.
44:52But I think the way you have
44:54handled everything
44:56and taken everything on board,
44:58you've had to step up
45:00and do.
45:01You've done it so well.
45:04You know,
45:04you'll never get over
45:06the loss of Chiron,
45:07but how you manage it
45:09and how you deal with it
45:10and how you move on your life
45:12will be so different
45:12by how you'll dealt with
45:14on that first day.
45:15Yeah.
45:15And for me,
45:16that's what it's about
45:17and that's why I do this job.
45:18Just knowing
45:19that I had somebody there
45:22who understood the experience
45:24and was able to prepare me for it
45:26and then offer the
45:27aftercare support
45:28and, you know,
45:29just that
45:29more greater understanding.
45:33I think that helped me
45:34get through that.
45:35And look at you now
45:36and look at the kids now.
45:38They're all thriving.
45:38They're all doing.
45:40They're all going off to
45:41new adventures
45:42in their lives,
45:43aren't they?
45:44And Chiron will always be there.
45:46Yeah.
45:46He's always there
45:47in the background.
45:48He's never gone.
45:49He's never gone.
45:50He's never gone.
45:50He's never gone.
45:51He's never gone.
45:51He's never gone.
45:52He's never gone.
45:52He's never gone.
45:53He's never gone.
45:53He's never gone.
45:54He's never gone.
45:54He's never gone.
45:55He's never gone.
45:55He's never gone.
45:55He's never gone.
45:56He's never gone.
45:56He's never gone.
45:57He's never gone.
45:57He's never gone.
45:58He's never gone.
45:58He's never gone.
45:59He's never gone.
45:59He's never gone.
46:00He's never gone.
46:00He's never gone.
46:01He's never gone.
46:01He's never gone.
46:02He's never gone.
46:02He's never gone.
46:03He's never gone.
46:03He's never gone.
46:04He's never gone.
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