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00:00This was a cold and calculated murder.
00:16There's always a breaking point in an investigation.
00:24The timeline of events didn't add up.
00:30It was crucial we supported our family contact.
00:50He says, there's a note on Facebook to say RIP, and that was it.
00:56Our hearts sank.
00:57There was a nine centimetre deep wound to the chest.
01:05The first punch was blown, but he thought he didn't have a knife and he just had a fist, but in that fist he had the knife.
01:43When he heard a knife and the farmer had been murdered.
01:46From that moment, I became her point of contact in the murder investigation.
01:50my name is paul webb i was a police family liaison officer often referred to as a flow
01:57attached to the metropolitan police the family always without exception from my experience
02:05hold really important information about the victim that is always relevant when it comes
02:12to investigating who who carried out the murder but in order to get to that aspect you need to
02:19gain the trust of the family do you need to build a relationship with them it is very much a
02:24privilege to be in that role you become almost sort of part of the family
02:32it was late in the evening i think around maybe six seven o'clock that i would learn that there had
02:50been a fatal stabbing of a young man in crane park first to arrive on scene are two police officers
02:58they provide life-saving treatment the london ambulance service would arrive followed by the
03:05london air ambulance which would land nearby and every effort was made to try and save his life
03:11there were at least two stab wounds and one to the chest and one to the arm they work on him
03:23and they take him to the royal london hospital by an air ambulance but sadly he would die
03:30at your earliest opportunity you would allocate a family liaison officer hello no has a young boy
03:38been stabbed in crane park the family have lost their loved one in the most awful of circumstances
03:44they are really really vulnerable the only sort of touch point that they've got is the police
03:50okay no i'm on my way to the office the role of the family liaison officer at this stage
03:56is so crucial you are going into a family at one of their darkest times it's important to have
04:03someone there to guide people through that to find out information about the victim's background and
04:09where they might have been and who they're associated with it's effectively giving the family a voice
04:14into the investigation so it's about doing the best we can for the family
04:19crane park is a sort of unkept park we've got a few paths through it for walkers first officers on
04:33scene will put in place cordons inner and out of cordons and then within that cordon it's basically
04:38locking it down and trying to understand what's in that area where the murder took place is a grassy
04:46area which very quickly becomes quite bushy so you can lose sight of people very quickly
04:52the police were called followed by the on-call murder team
04:59they will be a crime scene manager they carry out the urgent forensic scene preservation
05:08it's called the golden hour principles a number of witnesses had seen the suspects run
05:14as the suspects run along the pathway and then turn left they then go over a bridge which runs across
05:22the stream and an officer really diligent dc has retraced their steps to the point where he looks down
05:29into the stream and he sees a glistening knife initially they were going to call out the marine support
05:35unit who were going to take too long so then the officer and I understand that took off his shoes
05:41and went in and got the knife the victim was Jamil Palmer Jamil was 18 when he was killed he had
05:52everything to live for on the day of the murder of Jamil on the 6th he was completing some exams we'd gone to Portugal
06:08but he was meant to follow on a couple of days later my name is Ash Sayani and I am the mother to Jamil Palmer
06:19and I text him in the morning to wish him luck for his exam and I didn't get response like something
06:27wasn't right I knew something wasn't right that day it's almost like a wash of fear this young boy
06:34knocked on the door and said you know Jamil's been hurt in the park I'm Zahra Sayani sister of Ash Sayani
06:45me this young boy with this little bit of paper with a number on there it was the trauma hospital
06:53we rang and rang they finally said that we could get down to that hospital because he had been taken
07:00via air ambulance from that park I was driving my mom in the passenger seat just driving driving stuck in
07:07traffic thinking we really need to get to this hospital and then his friend all of a sudden in
07:12the back he says there's a note on Facebook to say RIP Jamil and that was it our hearts sank
07:21messages and messages and messages were coming up on his phone and he was checking and saying that yeah
07:30that's what everyone's saying now it's RIP we finally got there they took us into this room and
07:37we saw him with this sheet up to his neck and just his face and um literally we couldn't believe that
07:45it it was him tried to call Ash and just say look you know it is him and I'm so sorry
07:53I screamed so loud the neighbor in Portugal had to come and find out what had happened everyone you
08:00know our own immediate family could not believe that we were going through something like this early
08:07the next day we ended up getting to the airport and coming home and I just remember my phone was
08:14pinging and pinging and I was looking on Facebook and I just saw his photo and I saw a news thing like
08:21the ticker tape at the bottom and it said boy stabbed loss of life oh my god it's all over the
08:29news we had to prepare the house for people to give condolences so in our community obviously you
08:35have to have white sheets on the floor so people can sit and you know pray together as a community
08:41I think in my mind I was thinking this is not happening if I put the white sheets out I have to
08:48admit that he's not here anymore we went to the family home on the 7th of May and remember it
08:59distinctly that the family were absolutely numb you know it's less than 24 hours since they've been
09:08informed that Jamil has been murdered Noel had come over and he said to me I'm really sorry we wanted to
09:17give you our condolences and I think that's when it really hit home that is not here anymore and this
09:25is gonna be my life now it's disbelief trying to comprehend hoping that the police have made a mistake
09:33in the identification and that Jamil will put his key in the door and come through I'd never knew what a
09:39panic attack was until that day I couldn't breathe the room felt hot my brain was just cloudy it's bad
09:48enough to lose a loved one to an accident let alone somebody else taking your loved one away from you
09:54there was Ash and her husband John and their two girls who were very young at the time and Ash's
10:04sister Zara who was very supportive throughout and very courteous and dignified and it was a really
10:13tight bond there they thought the world of each other the family liaison officers came in introduced
10:20themselves and told us what their role was and how they will support us and what sort of the next
10:26steps are from that point Noel explained everything and what was going to happen they were looking for
10:33the person that had killed Jamil and at that point I was really happy because I felt someone's now could
10:41answer my questions and tell me what was going on they would be there for us for the whole process from start
10:50to finish these people are going to be like our I guess family for like the next however long it takes
10:57the deploying of family liaison officer in a murder investigation like this ultimately we're seeking
11:10to find out as much as we can about the victim and the victims background what we would call victimology
11:18and that can often be very important to the murder investigation sometimes pivotal to why this person was murdered
11:29she mentioned that she was expecting shocked all of us because she was obviously quite young I was very scared so I was 20 myself and I didn't know what I wanted out of life but I knew that I wanted him he was such a cheerful
11:56boy the bond between us was really strong because it was just him and I most of the time cheeky little boy cheeky funny always had a smile on his face such a lovely boy playing pranks was one of his things and football the love of football he loved Arsenal
12:26you know they loved having pictures done together and yeah really good relationship
12:33John came into his life John came into his life when he was 10 he's a great father great dad and a great influence on him he's got great values and morals and he did instill those things into Jamil
12:46Jamil you know Jamil you know Jamil was six foot one six foot two they always say like the friendly giant but he really was he was tall he was taller than John and he was like everyone's protector
12:59everyone just loved Jamil he was funny he did silly things he said silly things but that was him
13:05speaking to witnesses the vast majority that we encountered in Jamil's case were fellow young people of his kind of age group around 18 and some of them we would term as significant witnesses they told us among other people that there had been a previous
13:34to use a police expression altercation but it was basically a fight between Jamil and another individual and effectively Jamil's friends and the friends of the other individual were kind of rival groups but they certainly weren't from my experience gangs and they were very very difficult to to approach
13:59to approach because they don't like engaging with police partly because it's a sort of a cultural thing and partly because they're frightened of reprisals against themselves
14:13despite despite in at the time and subsequently in numerous appeals there was a lack of witnesses coming forward it is our understanding there were a significant number of people who had come out to see this fight but they never came forward
14:29they were clearly talking about the murder amongst themselves and on social media but when asked to provide accounts or support the investigation they refused to do so and that's so troubling
14:45we need everyone to do their little bit to provide that small piece of information it is frustrating
14:51the meeting with Jamil's family at fuller mortuary was a viewing what we call a family viewing it seems very simple that the family just go along and see their loved one through a glass window but it's it's a lot more than that meeting Paul at them you know the mortuary and him being so approachable
15:19and being really kind and actually really caring I felt completely at ease he held my hand and then he put his hand on my hand again and he I think he could probably feel me shaking
15:33I went in to see Jamil first who was on a bed with a sheet covering everything but his head and the reason I do that is so that I can tell the family what to expect and prepare them as well as I can for what they're about to see
15:51The first thing I said to Paul was can I touch him and he said no you can't touch him you can't touch the body because we need it for evidence
16:03When they told me they were ready I slowly opened the curtain so they could see him
16:11And I just remember Jamil lying there and he just looked like he was sleeping
16:25Ash was extremely upset and very tearful but overwhelmingly gracious and courteous as she always has been throughout she's a very strong person
16:39I had a whole mix of emotions
16:43The first emotion was I can't even touch my son I can't give him a hug I can't tell him that I'm here now
16:49He can't hear me he can't he doesn't even know I'm there
16:55You just want to take him home you just want to pick him up and scoop him up and say mom's here now
17:01You can't take him home with you, you know
17:05You have to leave him there and that's not his home
17:11What I always do is provide my contact details and my phone number and assure them that my phone will be on for the next few nights
17:21Because it's unlikely that families in these circumstances are going to get any sleep
17:29And if they have a burning question at 3 o'clock in the morning they've got somebody to phone and ask
17:35After we'd left the mortuary outside he gave me a hug and I gave him a hug back because I think he knew in that moment that that's what I needed
17:47I think that's quite a deep a deep thing to be able to share the loss of your own child
17:54So you've already built up a bond and will always remember that
17:58Within a couple of days of Jamil being killed there would have been a special post-mortem carried out
18:18Where a homicide has taken place the pathologist needs to go a lot further
18:24The objective is to secure all forensic opportunities so that could be from hand swabs, DNA that may or may not have occurred
18:34As well as understanding what was the cause of death
18:37And then note each and every single injury that they may have sustained
18:44There was a 9cm deep wound to the chest which had penetrated the left ventricle of Jamil's heart
18:54There were two other injuries, one to the arm and another to the chest area
18:59The pathologist established that Jamil had died from specifically a stab wound to the heart
19:05Once we find out the cause of death I would then go straight to Jamil's family and tell them face to face
19:14I went to Jamil's family home many times during the investigation
19:20I mean literally dozens of times
19:22He's such a calm, lovely person
19:25He was very patient, he had a warm smile
19:29And it was basically whatever, listen, I'm here
19:34The family liaison officers were there whenever they needed to tell us something
19:39Or update us with any new information
19:41It was always gratefully received that I was actually there giving them that information
19:49Even if it wasn't what they wanted to hear
19:52Ash helped us greatly with convincing very important witnesses who were Jamil's friends
19:58To assist us with giving information about what happened
20:02He let me know that some of Jamil's friends weren't really coming forward in giving any information
20:10I found that quite hurtful because they've been to my house
20:14They've eaten at my house, they've been around the table
20:17And maybe they were worried that something might happen to them
20:20But they weren't really being a good friend sometimes to Jamil
20:25Any information that we had at that point
20:28You know, different messages on social media
20:33We gave all of that to the family liaison officers
20:36They were quite amazed of how much we found out within a short space of time
20:41One of Jamil's friends came in to give him condolences
20:46And he was really quite sorry for Jamil passing
20:50We asked him if he knew anything
20:51And he was a bit, hmm, well, um, oh, you know
20:55Or here, you know, do you need anything towards the funeral?
20:59Or how can I help?
21:00So we said, right, the way you can help is telling us who did it
21:05Because obviously knife crime, no one wants to be a snitch
21:10Eventually he, uh, sent over, he'd text a photo of, um, a boy
21:18And, uh, we believe it to be, you know, someone related to Jamil's murder that was heavily involved
21:26And we sent that picture on to our family liaison officers
21:30And we thought, you know, we're getting a bit closer
21:33And now it's up to them to, like, go and get him and find out more
21:38So the date of Jamil's funeral was the 13th of June, uh, 2014
21:58Our mosque has, like, three floors
22:00All three floors were packed
22:02It's never been like that unless it's really special occasions
22:05Over 800 people came to his funeral
22:08And I thought, gosh, he was loved
22:10These people have come to say goodbye to my boy
22:14They've come to pay their respects to Jamil
22:19In our community, we have an open casket
22:22Where family, relatives, the community can come
22:25Pay their last respects to that deceased person
22:28Because it had been so long
22:30It had to be, unfortunately, a closed casket
22:32Which, obviously, is a very distressing thrash
22:35Everyone's singing
22:37Almost like a chant
22:39And, you know, giving, like, making sure that the soul goes to heaven
22:44As you're saying the prayers
22:46The family and friends will walk around the coffin
22:50But they'd be walking around a lid
22:54He never had a chance to even grow up
22:58And be a man, you know
23:01He was just 18
23:03How is she gonna cope? How is she gonna get through this?
23:07How will her life be?
23:09You have to eat and be together as, like, a big family
23:13So I invited everyone to a restaurant in Hounslow
23:17I thought, I'll go in after everyone's sat down
23:20And then I saw two boys
23:22They were arguing
23:24And they were literally punching each other outside the restaurant
23:30And he says, oh, do you know, I'm gonna get you
23:32I'm gonna shank you up
23:34And I just remember just standing in the middle of them
23:37And I put one like this and I put the other one
23:40I said, you're not doing that today
23:42My son has died from a bloody knife
23:44And they said, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry
23:47And then I said, he says, oh, what's your son's name?
23:51I said, oh, Jamil
23:52Oh, I knew Jamil, I know someone that knows him
23:55I'm really sorry the funeral's today, I heard what happened
23:58And I'm thinking, this couldn't have been, you know, you can't make it up
24:03They both went home to their mums
24:05And maybe something in them resonated
24:08Those two boys might have gone home that day and thought
24:11Gosh, I walked away with my life today
24:27We were still building the case
24:30We were trying to engage witnesses
24:32And trying to find out what was going on
24:35It was not possible to find out everything we needed to progress
24:41There were snippets of information floating around
24:45It was coming through at this point
24:47About Jamil having had a previous dispute six months earlier
24:53On the 25th of February, there was a dispute between Jamil Palmer and an individual called Mohamed Barry whose street name was Crooks
25:05And that became quite heated to the point that punches were thrown
25:11And at some point, Jamil has removed his belt and used that to strike Mohamed Barry
25:19He came home and there was a mark on his head
25:22And I said, oh, what's happened?
25:24And he says, oh, this guy was trying it
25:26And I said, oh, is everything all right?
25:28Yeah, it's fine, it's fine, I'll sort it
25:30Like it's, oh, it happened and now it's just finished, it's over now
25:33It wasn't until later on that I found out that it wasn't over
25:39Jamil won that fight and they were arrested for basically fighting in a public place
25:45Both Mohamed Barry and Jamil Palmer were then sent to the Feltham Youth Court
25:51Where the key date was going to be the 6th of May
25:54And when they came out of court, they continued a sort of verbal altercation as they were crossing the road
26:01It's slightly off of CCTV camera, so we don't see what's happening
26:06But Jamil Palmer punched Mohamed Barry and got the better of him
26:10It would appear that Mohamed Barry is dazed or he's been knocked out
26:14And Jamil Palmer was quite animated and said, where's the effect of one-on-one?
26:21There is a male who has filmed this and it was then circulated, I understand, on social media
26:28But we never got access to that, unfortunately
26:33It was a member of the public who was in their car that they would actually see the fight
26:39She didn't really think much of it until she saw the news later
26:44That Jamil had been stabbed to death in Crane Park
26:49And she then contacted police to say that she'd witnessed something that she thought might be relevant
26:56Because of where she lived
26:59She was very concerned that she would suffer reprisals if she got involved in becoming a witness
27:06I contacted her and asked her if I could come and meet her
27:10And she was quite reluctant but had bravely, I think, made the move to report what she'd seen first off
27:21And I managed to convince her to meet me at a cafe
27:28That again was a case of building trust and reassurance
27:32I sat and talked to her for some time and she agreed to give a statement
27:36Her evidence was really significant
27:39Because what she had witnessed, of course, was that prelim to the fatal fight
27:45That was carried out in Crane Park where Jamil died
27:48Muhammad Bahre was a 17-year-old man at the time
27:52I think he had one previous for an offensive weapon
27:55I hadn't heard of Muhammad Bahre's name before
27:59The first time I heard it when Paul told us that he was the one involved in Jamil's murder
28:07And also, Paul confirmed to us that, yes, it was the person in the photo
28:13Which ended up being Muhammad Bahre
28:17You've got two young men who've had a long-running dispute
28:21That has quite clearly had fuel poured on it
28:26When they've had this fight after going to the youth court
28:32This then caused a flurry of phone calls to be made
28:36Within 20 minutes or so, we would see Muhammad Bahre come together with his group
28:42There was some relevant CCTV which gave us footage of the association
28:48Between the four suspects and Bahre
28:52Before and after the murder
28:54We see the group meeting up
28:56They call into a shop where we see them on CCTV
29:00The group of five, which included Muhammad Bahre, go in
29:03And they all purchase drinks
29:05This gives absolutely really good imagery of their clothing
29:10One was wearing a beanie hat
29:11One was wearing a baseball cap
29:13And there's a distinctive skull on another's top
29:17And that would be their markers that we could then work backwards
29:20On a bus and local authorities, CCTV
29:24Both before and then after the murder
29:28So where we might have had a blurry image or a lower quality
29:32That CCTV officer becomes an expert effectively
29:37To say that they will have viewed the CCTV for hundreds and hundreds of hours
29:43If you think playing it backwards and forwards
29:45And so they will know intimately like creases on shoes
29:50Or little peculiar signatures on an individual
29:53Maybe even how they walk
29:55Then afterwards they would then make their way to Crane Park
29:59Where the murder took place
30:02We've also got the phone evidence of one of the group
30:06With Muhammad Bahre putting a phone call into Jameel Palmer's friend
30:10It's fair to say that this is saying that Muhammad Bahre wants to
30:15Have a rematch, for want of a better word
30:18So it's a whole jigsaw of evidence
30:22From a number of witnesses it was unanimously agreed
30:25That there would be no weapons used
30:27There was DNA forensic evidence found on the knife that was dumped in the stream
30:33But the DNA matched Muhammad Bahre's DNA
30:37There were traces of Jameel's blood on the knife as well
30:42And therefore was the murder weapon
30:44We've also got the bottle that was recovered at the scene
30:49And that had a mixed DNA profile
30:52Which was suggestive of Jameel Palmer and Muhammad Bahre being on that bottle
30:58So both the victim and the suspect on the same bottle
31:07The family liaison officers were really kind and helpful
31:12Paul was very calm and he'd come to our house
31:15He'd chat to us, you know, if we needed, you know, anything
31:19She was very dignified throughout all my dealings with her
31:24But at the same time she wasn't frightened to ask questions
31:30And some very searching questions
31:33Which, you know, I did my best to answer
31:36There's times that I just wanted to scream
31:39And there's times that I just didn't want to get out of bed
31:41But I had to get out of bed
31:43And I had to continue on until justice was done
31:46We had enough evidence probably a couple of weeks into the inquiry to arrest the suspects
32:02The main suspect was Muhammad Bahre
32:05When Paul told me I was, I was like, like, almost relief
32:10And then he says, but there's something else, Ash
32:13He's done a runner
32:15And I said, well, you know, we'll have to find him
32:20Get him circulated on the police national computer
32:22Pushed out to officers to try and locate him
32:25He wasn't his mother's house
32:27And had clearly gone away somewhere to avoid being arrested
32:31The other suspects, we were seeking to arrest them as soon as possible
32:37But it wasn't very easy and straightforward to do so
32:41Two of them were in foster care
32:43But didn't always live at the foster carer's house
32:47So they were a little bit difficult to locate
32:50It was all for the police to make the running
32:54And we did that through developing intelligence
32:56Getting officers out, searching addresses, going to their local haunts
33:02We would make arrests on the 13th, 14th and 16th
33:07So in those days we would arrest four of the individuals
33:11Muhammad Bahre was on the run for about six weeks
33:16Ultimately we would release the image of Muhammad Bahre with a serious crime reward
33:23As a means to encourage the public to identify him and offer him up
33:29And bring him out of hiding
33:31And ultimately that combined with the pressure and the searching
33:35That we were doing on people around Muhammad Bahre
33:38He presented himself at a police station
33:40And he was displeased that we had circulated his image
33:45He was a bit affronted, he was unhappy about that
33:47I told Ash that the suspects had been arrested
33:53It was like, gosh, it was, you feel, but you're still not there yet
34:00You still haven't got to the end
34:02And I was happy Paul was the one to tell me
34:04Because I knew I didn't have to be my happy self
34:09Because Paul knew me
34:11Paul would have said, oh, just, here, have a hug, do you want to cry?
34:15And I probably did, on many occasions, on Paul's shoulder
34:29I actually interviewed all the suspects
34:32They gave no common interviews
34:34Apart from one who gave quite a detailed account about what had happened
34:39He said he was there and he was there before and after
34:43Um, and this is what happened
34:46I later interviewed Muhammad Bahre
34:48I asked him about his involvement in this incident
34:52The previous incident
34:54What that was all about
34:55He made no comment
34:57And there comes a point where we go to the Crown Prosecution Service
35:00Building the case would have been, um, putting together all the witness evidence
35:06And intelligence, um, uh, and CCTV
35:13And the building a forensic case
35:16Most importantly, what does normal behaviour look like?
35:18For example, if they had every day or once a week always gone to Crane Park
35:23And to been in that area
35:25That would be less telling than they all happened to come together on this day
35:30During the arrest phase on two of the defendants
35:35Um, there was a covert recording
35:38And what was quite clear from that
35:40They were discussing their evidence
35:43And, you know, words to effect of
35:45Don't mention that there was a knife
35:47It's about bringing it all together
35:50And strengthening all of your evidence to make it as strong as possible
35:54So there was five suspects charged, um, responsible for Jamil's murder
36:13When it comes to a trial
36:15That can be really quite harrowing for a family
36:17And if they were left to their own, sort of, company
36:20That would be, you know, even more traumatic for them
36:24Paul, at the beginning of the trial, was very informative
36:27He sat, right, okay, today
36:29I think this is what's gonna happen
36:31They're gonna, you know, maybe discuss this
36:34Or he'll tell us who was on the stand
36:36So everything wasn't a shock
36:38He, uh, sat next to us the whole time
36:42The first day was hugely stressful
36:46And traumatic for Ash and her family
36:51Made even more difficult for them
36:53Was, uh, there was an application asking for the defendants
36:58To be allowed to sit outside the dock
37:01Because of their age and sensitivities with their families
37:05And the judge allowed this
37:07I was angry at that point because I thought
37:09Jamil can't sit next to his mum
37:12But there you are, you can sit next to yours
37:15Oh, heartbreaking
37:17To see that this guy's going in there
37:21And thinking that he's gonna, going to get off lightly
37:31The incident itself, we believe, was probably attended by dozens of individuals
37:40Who wanted to watch the fight
37:42But then, when it went so tragically the way it did
37:47The vast majority of them were very reluctant to become witnesses
37:52The young woman who witnessed Jamil and Muhammad Bahre
37:56Having this altercation outside the court at Felton Magistrates
38:03She gave evidence and I was supporting her as well
38:08She was very, very nervous and frightened
38:11She had screens
38:13Because she didn't want to be able to see the defendants
38:16And the defendants to be able to see her
38:18She gave evidence really, really well
38:20She was amazing, really brave, um, to do what she did
38:24Giving evidence at the Old Bailey
38:26This young woman, when she got to witness service, was in floods of tears
38:31Tears of relief, I think
38:33And her friend was there who had come to court with her just to support her
38:37And she was crying as well
38:39And Ash went into the room and embraced them both
38:44And thanked her for giving evidence
38:47And, and sort of cuddled her for some time
38:50And I was incredibly moved by that
38:54I thought, what an amazing woman to have that humility
38:58To support someone in those circumstances
39:01When she herself has lost her beloved son
39:04I thought that was just incredible
39:08Bahre got called to the stand and, er, he refused
39:12He did not want to take the stand and wasn't made to
39:15And I thought, you coward
39:18I thought, you can't even say what you've done
39:22You can't even face the family
39:25And say the reason why a life meant nothing to you
39:32When the jury went to deliberate
39:34That, for me, is a hugely stressful time
39:38And obviously a very stressful time for Ash and her family
39:42I was confident that the team had done everything they possibly could
39:46But ultimately it's on how did the jury interpret this information
39:52It was very painful to sit thinking to myself
39:57He better not, you know, wriggle his way out of this one
40:00Muhammad Bahre had a long-running dispute with Jamil Parma
40:06There was the initial fight
40:08Which resulted in both of them being charged
40:12Which would then put them to court on the 6th of May
40:15We know that after court
40:17That there was a one-to-one fight with Jamil
40:22Where Muhammad Bahre had been knocked out
40:25And the fact that it had probably been videoed
40:28It was common knowledge
40:29I learned that there was a Snapchat
40:32And I had to ask Paul
40:33Even though I asked Paul
40:34I said, what's Snapchat?
40:35And he said, oh, it's like a social media
40:38Where someone can take a video
40:41And then things can get deleted quite quickly
40:43It's that fight that is effectively fuel on the fire
40:47In this relationship
40:48I think Muhammad Bahre was determined to get his revenge
40:54And he summoned his group
40:58And he went to have what Jamil Parma thought was a rematch
41:02And because Jamil was so much bigger
41:05I think he thought, well, this is an easy walkover
41:09So he agreed to it
41:11This group have then converged together with Muhammad Bahre
41:15And they then travel towards Crane Park
41:18And he was either carrying
41:21Or he acquired that knife on that journey
41:24Jamil Parma says to a friend
41:26That he's actually going to go for a rematch
41:28He goes on to Crane Park
41:30No one, apart from the suspect
41:34Would have anticipated what was going to happen
41:36And that's when the first punch was blown
41:41But Jamil thought he didn't have a knife
41:44And he just had a fist
41:46But in that fist he had the knife
41:48Barry has opened that knife
41:50And he's then plunged it into his chest
41:54Straight into his heart
41:55For a silly fight to end in the tragedy of Jamil dying
42:02Through a knife attack
42:04Is just so incredibly tragic
42:07And so unnecessary
42:09And happens far too often
42:11So when the jury came back
42:14The verdict for Muhammad Bahre was guilty
42:17It was my birthday
42:20And I thought
42:21This one's definitely all worked out
42:23Jamil's definitely sending me a happy birthday
42:26It was the best feeling
42:28Because what he'd done was absolutely
42:30You know, disgusting in any means
42:34It was the best result
42:36In an awful circumstance
42:38The family were very disappointed
42:41And upset about the acquittal
42:43Of four of the defendants
42:45But at least the jury had recognised
42:47That Bahre was guilty
42:53Eventually you will get out
42:54And you will have some sort of life
42:58But, you know, Jam will never have that
43:01We were just hopeful that he got
43:06A good amount of time in there
43:08For the crime that he's committed
43:10Muhammad Bahre received life imprisonment
43:13And he will serve a minimum of 17 years in prison
43:17That was the end of the trial
43:20And Paul and I and John all went to the pub
43:24We had a drink
43:25And we just had to reflect on that six weeks
43:28And we said we're going to keep in touch
43:32And we have done ever since
43:35Because we truly bonded
43:45It's so good to see you, Ash
43:46You look so well
43:47How's the family? Are they good?
43:48Yeah, yeah, they're great, thanks
43:50All growing up
43:51I think it would have been really difficult
43:53If we didn't have a flow like Paul
43:56So that's Jamil and Madame Tussauds
43:59With the Incredible Hulk
44:00Yeah, and we said, look scared
44:02But John's like, look scared
44:03And he's like laughing
44:04I said, no, that's not scary
44:05He is laughing, isn't he?
44:06He is laughing
44:07He's seen me go through some terrible ups and downs
44:10During this whole process
44:12From the very vulnerable stage of, you know, seeing my son lying on the slab
44:17And moving along to seeing me today
44:21Where I'm getting through it
44:24And we had that blue blowing up
44:25Looks like he's got a really big hand
44:26It does, it is!
44:31That's my photo skills
44:34Family liaison officers are encouraged to write an exit strategy
44:39To explain to the family that after the trial
44:42And any other proceedings are finished
44:45The contact between the family liaison officer and the family should end
44:51But I've never felt comfortable using it in those terms
44:56I've simply said, look
44:58If you ever need to contact me in the future
45:01You're very welcome to any time
45:03It's nice that we're still here today
45:05Yes
45:06You know
45:07I've still got the mug you bought me
45:09With the no exit strategy on it
45:11Oh my God, you still have that
45:12And on the front it says
45:14Paul Webb
45:15The best policeman in the world
45:17Oh, that's right, I remember
45:19It's faded a bit though from the dishwasher
45:21Oh, yeah, I do remember it
45:23And I still stand by that
45:24Ash is one of those families that has become a good friend
45:30Will remain close, I'm sure, for years to come
45:35He's, you know, part of the family now
45:37You know, you can't spend that much time with somebody
45:40And not create a bond
45:42But it's still there actually
45:43Is it?
45:44Yeah, there's two of them
45:45This one and another
45:46It's really nice though
45:47Yeah
45:48I want Jamil to be remembered as he was
45:50He was funny
45:51He was sometimes silly
45:54Sometimes a little bit goofy
45:56But so caring and loving
45:58And that's how I want people to remember him
46:01That he's gone but he's not forgotten
46:05And that he's not forgotten
46:06Just like that
46:08But he smells like
46:10And that's how heciling
46:12To his wife
46:23Is deeply enjoyed
46:25And folks
46:27Will never be able
46:27To make a any mistake
46:28He calls him
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