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Chi pagherà per il riarmo dell’Europa? Schirdewan e Terras si confrontano a The Ring
Nel secondo episodio di The Ring affrontiamo il tema politico del riarmo europeo, diventato un obiettivo geopolitico della Commissione europea.
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2025/11/13/chi-paghera-per-il-riarmo-delleuropa-schirdewan-e-terras-si-confrontano-a-the-ring
Abbonati, euronews è disponibile in 12 lingue.
Nel secondo episodio di The Ring affrontiamo il tema politico del riarmo europeo, diventato un obiettivo geopolitico della Commissione europea.
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2025/11/13/chi-paghera-per-il-riarmo-delleuropa-schirdewan-e-terras-si-confrontano-a-the-ring
Abbonati, euronews è disponibile in 12 lingue.
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00:00Hello there and welcome to The Ring, Euronews' brand new debating show broadcasting from the
00:14European Parliament here in Brussels. Once a week, two elected members of the European Parliament
00:20go face to face on some of the most pressing issues of our time. This week we zoom in on
00:26the topic of rearming Europe and ask the crucial points who will pay.
00:34Europe wants to rearm fast. Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine, EU countries have been
00:40pouring billions into defence. The upside? A European Union that is more secure and less
00:47dependent on the US. Supporters argue that a bigger defence industry also means more jobs
00:54and a stronger geopolitical role for Europe. The downside? The cost. Critics say that every
01:00euro spent on tanks and drones is one euro less for schools, hospitals or climate action.
01:08So the question isn't just how much to spend, but how to spend. Can Europe find a balance?
01:15But can Europe find a balance? That is the question we have for our contenders. Let's meet them.
01:26Rio Teres, Estonian army general and member of the European Parliament for the EPP Centre
01:33Right Group. Vice President of the Security and Defence Committee. A cheerleader for defence
01:38and spending. He has stated, what we need is for the market to provide the necessary quantities
01:45of ammunition, missiles and various defence equipment.
01:50Martin Scherdewan, co-chair of the left group in the European Parliament. He strongly criticises
01:56shifting money away from social programmes to defence. His verdict on the European Commission's
02:03Rearm Europe plan was blunt. Investing billions in war will not make the world safer or more
02:11peaceful, he said.
02:14Rio Teres and Martin Scherdewan, welcome to the ring. The idea here is to give our viewers
02:20a taste of your debates inside the European Hemicycle. So I hope you feel right at home.
02:26Rio Teres, let's start with you. You say the market should be providing defence equipment,
02:30with tight budgets. Who should pay? Nations should pay.
02:34But nations are broke. Nations aren't broke. They have been able to spend money on many
02:39other things. For example, climate change. At the current moment, where the war is imminent
02:45in Europe, we need to get stronger because Europe has not spent enough in the last 35 years.
02:54We are not talking about arms race. We are talking about fulfilling the promises we have made
02:59ourselves many years ago. But where is that money going to come from?
03:04Well, as Rio said, for now it's coming from the public budget. And this is, of course, a problem
03:09because every euro invested into the arms manufacturers will not go into, for instance, hospitals,
03:16schools, digital infrastructure or the necessary transition of our industry. So this is a huge problem.
03:24I would suggest that we take the money from those who have it, that we discuss new own resources
03:30for the European budget. And that means that we tax the rich, that we tax multinational enterprises,
03:36and that we also discuss something like a digital taxation for big tech companies.
03:40Would you agree with this idea?
03:41No, not at all. I think the defense is still a prerogative of the nations and not the European
03:47Union as a whole. So the nations themselves need to fulfill their own promises. And if
03:53somebody tells me that it is not possible to build up a social state and invest in the
03:58defense, that's wrong. Because history has shown us that German Federal Republic of Germany,
04:04during many years in the Cold War, was able to build up one of the most capable social systems
04:10in the world. At the same time, they invested 3.5% on the GDP on defense, because it is necessary
04:17and people understood why.
04:18What about the idea of defense euro bonds, Martin Schrodoven?
04:21Well, first of all, we don't have a Marshall plan today for the European Union, European
04:25defense, because you were referring to Germany. That was the case back in the day. So there were
04:29huge investments coming from the international community to Germany. But this is not the
04:34case today. So we need to really think about how to raise money. And you mentioned euro bonds
04:38for the arms industry. I don't think that this is a good idea, because we are already on the
04:43way to take on more debts by giving loans to the member states that they can then invest
04:50into military purposes. So I do not think that this is a good idea to go on following this
04:56wrong path.
04:57Well, I think we are derailing the discussion here. It is not about to spend money on health
05:02care systems or defense. It is about defending Europe, because we see that an aggressive Russia
05:08is willing and able to use conventional military weapons against countries. And Putin has very
05:15often declared that he wants to rearrange the security system in Europe. And if we are not
05:20if we do not fulfill our own taking tasks, then we are not able to defend Europe as a whole
05:27and separate countries of it.
05:29And Martin Schroeder, that is a fair point, what Rio Terrace makes
05:31there. Because just think of Brussels. Just the other day, the airport was shut down for
05:3530 minutes because of drone incursions, allegedly Russian drone incursions buzzing over Dool, the
05:41nuclear plant, right by the port of Antwerp. Brussels had to call the UK in order to come and help, but
05:46wasn't able to defend itself in this situation.
05:48Yeah, exactly. That was supposedly a Russian drone. We don't know that yet. Well, I am not
05:52defending Russia here. Maybe it was Russia, maybe it was the third country, maybe it was
05:55a private here, who knows. But obviously, Europe is tested also in its military capabilities.
06:01So, of course, we need to do something in order to discuss how to defend the European Union,
06:06how to defend the member states, in case there would be a violation of international law, meaning
06:11an attack against one of the member states. This is not the case so far. So we can take time,
06:16but just a little bit, to discuss how to spend wisely the money that we have at our hands into defense.
06:22And a new security order does not only depend on defense capabilities, it also depends on how
06:29we implement international law, how we strengthen international organizations. And this is something
06:34that I'm really missing, especially in the discussion of the conservatives.
06:38Reaction to that?
06:39Now, I agree that there are all other mechanisms there, but the one and the only which really is understood
06:46by Putin is if you have more weapons than him, he has. So it is very easy for me, very plain.
06:53If you are strong enough, then he will start to negotiate. If you are not strong, he will laugh about you,
06:58as he has done throughout the years in the last two decades.
07:02And are you pleased with the trends lately? We've seen defense spending has gone up in the past few years, Rio Terrace.
07:08According to Eurostat, between 2021 and 2024, the total defense spending of the EU countries rose by 37%,
07:17whereas when it comes to social protection, it only rose by a tiny bit.
07:22How do you feel when you read this data, Martin Sherdogan?
07:25Well, I think this is completely out of line, this development. I mean, Rio referred to Russia and the threat
07:31Russia poses to the European Union. This is always the explanation why we have to spend more and more
07:37and more money into our defense capabilities. But I think, actually, that we really need to discuss
07:43what that means. In the end, it means a new wave.
07:46Well, what is your solution, then, to protect Europe? Imagine if there was potentially an invasion,
07:49if an EU member state was. If we have a look at the numbers, let's take a look at the numbers.
07:54NATO is spending nine or ten times what Russia is spending for its defense and military capabilities.
08:00Even the European NATO members, they spend four times what Russia spends.
08:05So there is no rational explanation why we should again spend more and more.
08:09But what about Russia's nuclear arsenal?
08:12They have 5,500 nuclear...
08:14They have that for decades now. That is no new development, right?
08:17How can we deter against that threat, Rio?
08:19The problem is that we have been spending less and less and less throughout the last 30 years.
08:24It's not about we are spending more. It's about starting to spend at all.
08:30Because the defense spendages, if you look from 1990 to 2020, then you will see how much we have lost,
08:39how big period of time we have lost, because we have not invested what we promised ourselves.
08:44It's not about 5%, 10%, it's about just 2%.
08:49It's exactly the same amount of money that Estonia saved introducing the digital government system.
08:56Is it possible to find the balance, do you think?
08:59It would be possible if you would look for other resources.
09:02And as I said, we need to discuss the introduction of new own resources.
09:06And now we have the discussion with the multi-annual financial framework,
09:09which allows us to look at new own resources.
09:11And this for me, of course, means that we need to redistribute wealth in the society
09:15if we have those challenges in front of us and we need to tackle them.
09:19I agree. We need to tackle the challenges.
09:21That's not going to happen.
09:22But therefore, we need money.
09:23That's not going to happen.
09:24I mean, the budget talks have already kicked off in Brussels.
09:25We can see how torturous they are.
09:27The strength of the European Union lies also on competitiveness.
09:31And if we start to introduce new taxes and distribute wealth,
09:36which we don't have right now because we are not in the very good economical situation,
09:41then we will have less money to spend on defense.
09:45So we need to make Europe competitive again, which it's not right now.
09:50At the same time, we need to invest, and not the European Union,
09:54but the countries need to invest what they have promised to their defense.
09:58But then, Rio, really, you need to mention that.
10:01Because you're not doing that, then I will do it.
10:03Each euro invested into arms manufacturers means that there is no money left for social cohesion, for instance.
10:11And this will cause a new wave of austerity in Europe, which in the end means that those who have the least,
10:18suffer the most, working class families, will pay for this arms race that you are advocating for.
10:24So that conflict is not existent. We see in Estonia, the government decided to spend 5% on the GDP on defense,
10:31and the Estonian mothers want the mother care as well.
10:34But the people are supporting it by 80% because they understand the urgency of the situation.
10:39And you don't need social services in Russia, because as we see in Donetsk, Russia does not give you social services.
10:46He kills your people, your children, and all so on.
10:50So it's not comparable.
10:51But this is not Russia. This is the European Union, and people are used to relying on...
10:54This is not a discussion.
10:55But our citizens expect us to invest into public services and social security systems.
11:00And they are rightfully...
11:02And make sure that the country exists.
11:04Yes, I mean, they do exist.
11:06At the moment where it is attacked by Russia, it is not forgiven.
11:10And that is the discussion about.
11:12Well, let me stop you there, as it is now time to take the gloves off.
11:21Now, I want to give our viewers a real taste of the European Parliament chambers,
11:26where MEPs fire hard questions at each other.
11:29That means Rio terrorists.
11:30And Martin Schrodoven will now have the opportunity to challenge each other directly,
11:35just like you do in the hemicycle.
11:37So Martin Schrodoven, can you start, please?
11:39Rio, we met before, and you often say that this war in Ukraine will be won on the battlefields.
11:47Now then, since Trump engaged in whatsoever diplomatic efforts,
11:53and even Ursula von der Leyen changed her language,
11:56do you still believe that this war will be won on the battlefield while Russia is advancing?
12:01Or do you agree with me that we need to ramp up our diplomatic efforts to end this war?
12:06Well, I have always been in the position and think that dialogue is the best way.
12:12But dialogue needs two sides.
12:14If one side is not willing to talk, you can do whatever you want.
12:18Putin will not come back to the table if we are not strong enough.
12:22And right now Putin does not think we are strong enough,
12:26and we are not supporting Ukraine in the numbers we really need to do.
12:30Yes, the war is won at the battlefield.
12:32And Putin invaded a country and it seems like he's literally getting away with it.
12:36Rio terrorists, it's your opportunity now to address the question to Martin Schrodoven.
12:39The response to that, are you really sure that the known war criminal, Putin,
12:47is willing to come to the negotiation table in the situation where he has not listened to any discussions beforehand?
12:57And why you think so? And should we sit with the four criminals at one table?
13:02Well, we need to end this war. This should be the objective here.
13:05not judging that war criminal. I agree, he is a war criminal, but we need to end this war.
13:10And therefore we need to discuss how to...
13:11The discussion with a war criminal is legal.
13:13Please let me answer. Please let me reply.
13:15And therefore we need to end this war, and therefore we need to think about how to do it.
13:19And I think there are several options on the table. First, engaging in a more coordinated diplomatic effort,
13:26like including also in taking on board China, who wields a huge influence over Russia and also India.
13:34Russia is dependent on, economically dependent on India. So we need to take them on board.
13:39And then, of course, we need to target the sanctions. We have a sanctions regime in place, but we need to be more precise
13:45in targeting the industrial military complex of Russia.
13:49Do you endorse the fact that Viktor Orban, the Prime Minister of Hungary, and the Slovakian Robert Fijo
13:54have the lines still directly open to Moscow and Beijing?
13:57Do I endorse that Trump invited Putin to Anchorage, Alaska?
14:02Well, what can I say about that? He did that, and he kicked off, as hard as it is to admit for European politicians,
14:11he kicked off a process that might in the end eventually lead to an end, diplomatic end of the war.
14:18We will see if this happens or not. But he kicked off something new.
14:22Would you agree with that?
14:24It's naive. It's naive to think that Putin comes to the table.
14:28All attempts of Trump, of Wanderlion, many presidents have called, everybody has called him.
14:34He doesn't care about it because he feels that he's strong enough to go on with the war.
14:40Time for you to address your next question to Martin Cherdovan.
14:43Putin announced that he wants to rearrange the world order to say what it was in 1997.
14:49So coming to the discussion table, would you really think that NATO should withdraw from the Baltic states,
14:58from Finland and Sweden, et cetera, from Poland even, or even from the Eastern Germany,
15:04in order to please Putin and bring him to the discussion table?
15:08But, Rio, I never said something like that. I never said something like that.
15:12But what I'm proposing is that we work on a stable international security order.
15:19And, of course, NATO plays a role in that.
15:22But we need to take into consideration security guarantees for many political actors now,
15:26like China, like India, like Russia, like European Union, and, of course, the United States.
15:32But that means to rethink a stable international order.
15:35And we are far from that because the European Commission doesn't play any geopolitical role.
15:41Your chance to address the question now to Rio.
15:44All right. So we already touched upon the question of financing our expenditure for military purposes.
15:53And you are advocating for using public money, the public budget, which, as I already explained, will lead to austerity,
16:01a new wave of austerity. Would you agree with me that we need new sources to raise money
16:08if we want to tackle our challenges both at international level and internally at the social level?
16:16No, I think we should invest more wisely. We should try to cooperate more.
16:21We should try to make our defence industry more effective so that for every euro we will get more impact.
16:28But never, I would agree, with more taxes on European citizens.
16:35No, not on citizens.
16:36He's referring to tax the rich.
16:37Tax the rich.
16:38But the rich, as far as I know, the rich are the citizens of Europe as much as the poor.
16:43Well, then let's tax...
16:45So that is absolutely...
16:46Then let's tax US, American and Chinese big tech companies.
16:50Would you be in favour of that?
16:51Well, I would say competitiveness is not won by taxes. It's by investing in the new technologies and by making ourselves stronger,
17:01not trying to get money from the others.
17:04Look, we have heard now from Martin Shurdovan and Rio Terras and I'd like to bring in a new voice now.
17:14The EU Council President, Antonio Costa, has been making headlines of late for his ambitious statements on the future of European defence.
17:22Speaking to EU heads of state and government recently, he said to build the Europe of defence, we need efficient political oversight and coordination.
17:31And he said our defence ministers need to play an increased role.
17:35Martin, how do you interpret this statement?
17:37Is it the first step towards a European defence union or may I add an EU army?
17:41Yeah, well, he hasn't been very clear about that.
17:44But what I think he is right about is that we really need to coordinate better.
17:49So for now, we are just discussing imaginary figures that the European Commission came up with based on no assessment of whatsoever we really need.
17:57Is there an appetite, Rio Terras, to coordinate?
17:59I mean, the EU and NATO together and industry, of course, together, because they're all competing.
18:03Yeah, well, I think NATO has put requirements on the countries and members of NATO, which are part of the European Union.
18:12So we have the requirements, we know the numbers.
18:15But yes, I think the coordination between the ministers of defence is important in order to enable Commissioner Kobilius to work with them together, better solutions for our own defence.
18:27And where is the market hedging its best?
18:29Because we remember a few years ago, everyone in Brussels was discussing the European Green Deal as the growth model.
18:35Now it's all about defence.
18:36We should be balanced. We should not focus on one and then another.
18:40We should do both. We should be social state also. I agree.
18:43Well, this week, I mean, it needs to be balanced.
18:45This week, COP30 is taking place. How can we rearm Europe by 2030 and also go green?
18:50This is not going to happen with the proposal that the Commission just made for the multi-unit financial framework for the EU budget.
18:56It's focusing solely on armament, rearmament Europe and not focusing on the Green Deal anymore.
19:01Your party family wants to get rid of the Green Deal. And it's also putting into question the social state of Europe.
19:08The biggest threat to sustainability of Europe is if Russia attacks European countries.
19:14And again, it's always Russia.
19:16It's always Russia.
19:17It is. It is. Today, backed by China. Not believing in naive thinking that China will be on our side. Never.
19:25A communist country will never be on European side. Because we are democracies and we are defending here democracy.
19:31OK.
19:32The reason why Russia attacked Ukraine in 2022 and 2014 was because Ukraine wanted to have an association agreement with the European Union.
19:41It's not about NATO. It's about free will of a free country.
19:44It is time now to take a short break here on The Ring, but stay with us.
19:47We will be back very, very soon with some more political punch.
19:51Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' new weekly show.
20:03I'm joined by MEPs Martin Scherterman from the left and Rio Terras from the European People's Party.
20:09And the idea here is to bring the European Parliament's debates to your couch.
20:13So what about you? What do you think about the EU's drive to pump up defence?
20:17Well, according to EU data, 78% of Europeans are indeed concerned about the EU's defence insecurity in the next five years.
20:27That's eight in ten Europeans. How do you feel about that?
20:31I can understand that. Obviously, the international order is in turmoil.
20:36And of course, we need to provide also to our citizens stability. And that also means defence stability.
20:42What you're saying is very similar to what the head of the EPP said this week.
20:46He said, alone and naked we stand in a world of storms.
20:49Yeah, well, it only shows that I'm right. We need to spend more in defence and try to do it clever.
20:56What do your voters think?
20:57Well, our voters, my voters back home understand the necessity.
21:01We understand it already since 2010, as Estonia was spending 2% of the GDP on defence, as we promised to NATO.
21:09Today, it's 5% plus which we invest. But the Estonia's problem with one million people is that our 100% is too small.
21:18And we need to make sure that countries like Germany, France, Spain and Italy spend the same.
21:26You're praising, of course, your country of Estonia, which is obviously your job as an MEP, but it's a much smaller country.
21:31Other countries like you're in Germany, much bigger challenges in this area.
21:34Yeah, well, the 5% target of the NATO means that Germany has to spend hundreds of millions into the military.
21:42And this is, of course, a huge burden, both for the public budget, but also for the citizens.
21:49And this is debated very controversially in Germany. And I actually, I do not agree with that.
21:54Because the amount of money will only lead to cuts in public services and social security. And this is unacceptable.
21:59So citizens are not really on board with this plan.
22:0180% of the people in Europe.
22:04They are not that clearly in Germany.
22:06I mean, they are concerned.
22:08They are in Germany also. It's not that German public is against defence spending. That is not true.
22:12I think they're concerned until when it comes to the money coming from their pocket.
22:15Well, that's always the case. And that's why democracy works.
22:19You elect people who take decisions for you. And then next time you elect the other people.
22:24No, that is too easy. That is too easy, Leo, because that means actually that public money, meaning taxpayers' money,
22:29meaning our money and the working class families' money, goes directly into the pockets of the big shareholders of the arms manufacturers.
22:36This is not that easy. And people are discussing that. We have to be honest there.
22:39No, it makes Europe stronger. It makes Europe stronger.
22:42But then you name a single situation where world power without military packing has changed history.
22:51But Martin Sheridan is right. The arms industry will get much richer.
22:54But will ordinary citizens benefit too?
22:56We should use more SMEs. We should get the money.
22:59Then we should tax them. Then we should tax them.
23:01Yeah.
23:02But you don't agree with that idea.
23:03We should not tax the big ones, but we should make sure that the money comes to the SMEs, to the small technology companies, which right now are disrupting the battlefield in Ukraine.
23:18We need to get the big money, not to the big primes, but to the SMEs who are creating working space, who are creating jobs for the ordinary people who can earn more money.
23:30The money comes back to you if you are clever enough.
23:33It's a wishful thinking, do you think, Martin Sheridan, this idea to rearm Europe by 2030?
23:37No, not really wishful thinking because there are huge investments on the way.
23:42And I agree with the idea that we need to be capable to defend ourselves.
23:46But as also Rio now confirmed, we need to spend the money more wisely in order to address the new challenges, cyber attacks, drone warfare, etc.
23:55And we have to be very precise in our assessment what we need as a society, as European society.
24:00And that assessment hasn't been done yet. And I do completely disagree.
24:04That's why I do completely disagree with the proposals on the table.
24:07And Rio, how are you convincing other countries? Because of course, Estonia is very close to Russia.
24:12You feel the threats every day. Countries, though, like Spain, Italy, Greece, they have other issues on their minds, like migration, for example.
24:18Well, the war criminal Putin is helping us always. If I have difficulties to convince somebody, he would attack somebody.
24:25And the events in Brussels airport recently show us that everybody is endangered. Everybody.
24:33From Spain to Portugal, everywhere. And we need to understand that the migration is not an existential threat.
24:40Migration is a threat to our way of life, to our economy. But war is an existential threat. And that is a difference.
24:49Final reaction to that. Would you agree?
24:50Yeah, well, I really don't get that. I mean, how can you say that migration? You put it all in one basket.
24:56You put it all in one basket. I mean, there is no clear political line. Why do you bring now migrants?
25:01I was not putting it all in one basket. I was just highlighting the challenges and the issues facing other member states.
25:08But it is now time to move on to our fifth and final round. Are you ready?
25:14Now it is time for something different. I'm going to ask you a set of questions and I require a yes or no answer.
25:25Is this doable?
25:26I hope so.
25:27Let's find out.
25:28Let's find out.
25:29Should the EU develop its own nuclear deterrence strategy? Yes or no?
25:34No.
25:35No.
25:36Can the EU ever be a military power? Yes or no?
25:41It is.
25:42Yes.
25:43What about military conscription? Is this a good idea? Yes or no?
25:47I have my doubts.
25:49Conscription is the only way for small countries. I don't know about big ones.
25:53Should EU countries spend at least 2% of their GDP on defence?
25:57Well, it depends on what we actually need.
26:00Yes or no?
26:01I would say let's look into it.
26:03Yes, of course. Not even more.
26:06Is Russia's threat big enough to justify the current surge in spending?
26:10No. Russia is not justified to do anything at the moment, I think.
26:13Yes, it is.
26:14Will Europe ever be military independent from the United States? Yes or no?
26:18Yes.
26:19Yes.
26:20Should the EU funds be used to subsidise weapons? Yes or no?
26:24Yes.
26:25No.
26:26It is not allowed by the European treaties, by the way.
26:29Even though it is on the cards?
26:30Yes.
26:31Yes.
26:32Should taxpayers accept higher public debt to fund military build-up?
26:36In separate countries, yes.
26:37No.
26:38Should EU defence projects prioritise European companies only, even if it raises costs? Yes or no?
26:43No. At the current moment we need to take whatever is available in the world.
26:47Same question to you?
26:48Yes.
26:49We should prioritise European industry, yes.
26:52And what about drones? Is the future of warfare on drones?
26:56No, on people.
26:57Well, the future is on peace.
27:00Final question.
27:01Have you agreed with anything that Martin Sheridan has said here?
27:04Yes, that we need to be smarter in spending on defence.
27:07What about you?
27:08Well, no, I have my difficulties to find something that I agree with that you just said.
27:16But at least we have brought you together here on The Ring.
27:19Martin Sheridan and Rio Teres, thank you so much for being on The Ring.
27:22Thank you so much.
27:23Thank you.
27:24And thank you so much for watching.
27:25If you have a comment for us, do reach out, thering at euronews.com.
27:29That is our email address.
27:31Tell us how you feel about the EU's focus on defence.
27:34Thanks for watching and see you soon.
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