- 8 mesi fa
Migrazione in Europa: sicurezza e solidarietà? Gli eurodeputati si scontrano sul Ring
Questa settimana The Ring si occupa del dibattito europeo sulla migrazione, mentre l'UE si muove verso regole di deportazione più severe ed esplora i controversi "hub di rimpatrio" per i richiedenti asilo respinti al di fuori dell'Unione.
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2025/12/18/migrazione-in-europa-sicurezza-e-solidarieta-gli-eurodeputati-si-scontrano-sul-ring
Abbonati, euronews è disponibile in 12 lingue.
Questa settimana The Ring si occupa del dibattito europeo sulla migrazione, mentre l'UE si muove verso regole di deportazione più severe ed esplora i controversi "hub di rimpatrio" per i richiedenti asilo respinti al di fuori dell'Unione.
ALTRE INFORMAZIONI : http://it.euronews.com/2025/12/18/migrazione-in-europa-sicurezza-e-solidarieta-gli-eurodeputati-si-scontrano-sul-ring
Abbonati, euronews è disponibile in 12 lingue.
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NovitàTrascrizione
00:00Grazie a tutti.
00:30Grazie a tutti.
01:00Grazie a tutti.
01:30Grazie a tutti.
01:33So are stricter rules the way forward or is this just a way to keep the far right at bay?
01:39That's the question that we'll be asking to our contenders.
01:43Let's meet them.
01:43Charlie Weimers.
01:45Charlie Weimers, Swedish MEP, vice president of the European Conservatives and Reformists
01:51Group.
01:51An advocate for much stricter migration controls at the EU level, he has proposed physical
01:56border barriers around the EU to deter irregular migration.
02:00We do not want more asylum migration for the moment, he once said.
02:07Lee Andersen, Finnish MEP for the left group in the European Parliament.
02:12Former Minister of Education, she focuses on equality, social justice, workers' rights
02:17and human rights.
02:18Pushbacks are contrary to international human rights law and the assessment of their legality
02:23will remain in the hands of the courts, not the commission, she said.
02:27Mr. Weimers and Madame Andersen, thank you very much for joining us on The Ring.
02:35Is migration a problem or is it an opportunity?
02:38Well, unfortunately, it is a problem because of decades of mass uncontrolled immigration,
02:43which has led to segregation, increased crime, as in my home country, where we used
02:52to regard shootings and bombings as something that others experienced.
02:58Now it's an everyday experience in Sweden.
03:00So we have big problems and we have to get now breathing room to deal with them.
03:06Same question for you, Madame Andersen.
03:09Well, I think it's clear that Europe needs migration.
03:12We are in a part of the world that is growing older, so it's clear that we need more people.
03:17But it's also clear that the way that Europe has handled the migration policy has also created
03:23a lot of human rights problems.
03:24Look at the Mediterranean, for example, where the lack of legal pathways has led to thousands
03:29and thousands of tragic deaths.
03:31We also know that many members of the EU states have not implemented the EU asylum policy or
03:37even the decision of the courts in a uniform way.
03:40So there are problems, but the problems are human rights problems.
03:43Let me go back to you, however.
03:45You said there is now, if I understood correctly, a clear connection between migration and crime.
03:52Some would say that is flat-out racist.
03:54How do you respond?
03:55I would say just go to the Strasbourg Christmas market.
03:59Did it used to be a fortress back in the 80s, the 90s, even 15 years ago?
04:05Today it is a fortress reminding us of how it used to be in the green zone in Baghdad under
04:13the US occupation, and that has with migration to do.
04:16The foiled terror attack against the Christmas market in Germany had with migration to do,
04:21because these were jihadists, Islamists, that wanted to hurt ordinary Europeans.
04:27This is the traditional way of argumenting for the far right and the extreme right.
04:30So they tried to equate all debate and all discussion around migration to be about crime.
04:35Crime is crime.
04:36And it needs to be addressed as crime.
04:38Yes, we need to fight organized crime.
04:41Yes, we need to fight terrorism.
04:42We have tools and policies to do that.
04:44But I do also think that Europeans know that when we talk about migration, we also talk about
04:49their neighbors.
04:50We talk about their classmates.
04:52We talk about families and people that they live with, work with, study with.
04:57So when we talk about migration policy, we need to be able to look at the full picture
05:02and also to discuss people that have a reason to apply, for example, for asylum,
05:08and that might also have a reason to receive asylum within the European Union.
05:12He did mention something important and interesting, which is the Christmas market in Strasbourg
05:16now is boarded up because of the idea of terror.
05:19Do you associate that to migration?
05:22I think we do a very big mistake also for the cohesion of our societies if we equate
05:30terrorism with migration, exactly for the reasons that I said.
05:34Europe is a continent consisting of people that have come here from different places that
05:39live here, that work here, that have families here, that pay taxes here, that get their pensions
05:44here and so on.
05:45We need to fight crime as crime, but we should not mix it up with the whole discussion on
05:51migration policy.
05:52Well, I wonder when the far left will connect the dots, because if you look at terrorist attacks
06:00in Europe, they are very often committed by people with a non-European background.
06:06in your own hometown of Turku, a failed asylum seeker murdered citizens of Finland, and you
06:16know, why was he still allowed to be in Finland?
06:19Because of rules that you defend that makes it impossible to deport convicted rapists and
06:26terrorists to their home countries.
06:28Why do you defend these rules?
06:30And do you know, in my hometown of Turku, where there was this terrible terrorist accident,
06:34a knife attack, do you know who were the persons to intervene in that situation?
06:40They were also asylum seekers.
06:43In my hometown, nobody bought into this rhetoric of the extreme right, because they also saw the
06:49people who were courageous enough to intervene in that situation to try and protect the innocent
06:54civilians that were became victims of this knife attack.
06:58Yes, there are criminals.
06:59Some of them have a migrant background.
07:02Yes, we need to be serious when we talk about fighting terrorism and organized crime.
07:06But we cannot make a creative picture where we try and present all migrants or all asylum
07:12seekers as criminals, because that is not true.
07:15That does not reflect reality, that did not reflect the reality in my hometown of Turku,
07:19and it does not reflect the reality where Europeans live.
07:22I want to give you a right reply, but to play devil's advocate, some would argue there would
07:25have been no attack and therefore no need to intervene if that person who did not have
07:29a legal permit to be in Europe had not been there at that time.
07:32That's the core of the issue.
07:35Is it possible to create a society with absolutely no migration?
07:41It is not.
07:42That kind of solutions to the societal problems.
07:45I mean, one problem with the far right is that they want to solve every societal problem
07:50with saying that as long as we restrict migration, this will go away.
07:54Unemployment, let's restrict migration.
07:57Terrorism, let's restrict or crime, let's restrict migration.
08:01Learning outcomes going down, let's restrict migration.
08:04But you do not actually present any solutions to the societal problems at hand.
08:09What are your solutions to fight the specific topic of crime or terrorism or the specific
08:16topic of unemployment or the specific topic of learning outcomes?
08:21It's not enough to just say that you want closed borders.
08:24The borders will never be completely closed.
08:27There will still be criminals.
08:28We will still have learning outcomes that go down.
08:31We will still have problems with unemployment.
08:33So we need to be able to address these societal problems for what they are with real political
08:38solutions to them.
08:40Well, I would invite you to read the statistics from Sweden showing that immigration has led
08:46to an increase of crime.
08:47It's not me saying that it's the crime prevention agency in Sweden.
08:52So the statistics is there.
08:55You just have to bother to have a look at it.
08:58Also, when it comes to the issue of putting everyone in the same basket, no, that's not
09:06the case.
09:07We differ between those who build cars, who contribute, and those who burn cars.
09:12And the question is here, Leanderjohn, why do you say no to the deportation of criminal
09:20foreigners?
09:21Because that's what you do if there's a slight theoretical risk for them in their home country.
09:26Why don't you want to send them home?
09:28Firstly, we've actually had a lot of experts from Sweden coming to Finland saying, do not
09:34repeat the mistakes we have done in Sweden when it comes, for example, segregation.
09:38Do not create societies where you have working class families living in separate areas without
09:45any kind of perspective of social mobility, of being able to create the life that they
09:50want for themselves.
09:52When it comes to deportation of criminals, my party has not said no.
09:57It is possible to deport offenders that have committed serious crimes, as long as the principle
10:04of non-reforma is respected.
10:06So that is the only kind of limit, I would say, legally, to when it's not possible to
10:12do it.
10:13And that, of course, I think we both agree we need to respect.
10:17But we have not said a categorical no to deportations of criminals.
10:21We have to now move on in the show.
10:23It's called The Ring.
10:24So let's take gloves off.
10:25Now, of course, as we always say, it is time for our viewers to get a real taste of the
10:34European Parliament and what it looks like from within.
10:38You both obviously are elected to protect your constituents and also ask each other tough
10:42questions and bring up tough issues.
10:44So now I will give you the floor so you can ask each other questions.
10:48And I know I cut you off.
10:49So, Mr.
10:50Weiners, I will give you the first question.
10:51You have the floor.
10:52Paris canceled its New Year's Eve celebrations.
10:57The Christmas market here in Strasbourg looks like it's under siege, a fortress.
11:05Families are afraid to go out.
11:07Is that a price worth paying for Europeans in order to preserve liberal asylum policies?
11:13That is a price that we are paying for the rise of extremism in Europe.
11:17And we see it both.
11:18There is Islamist extremism.
11:21There is far-right extremism.
11:24We have seen examples of terrorism attacks of both of these.
11:28And I do honestly think that if we engage in this kind of debate that the extreme and
11:34the far-right is doing, where they kind of put the shadow of doubt on every single member
11:40of our societies that have a background from somewhere else, whose family has a background
11:46from somewhere else, we do not actually fight the root causes of extremism.
11:51We make it worse.
11:52So I think we should let the police do its work when it comes to combating terrorism and
11:57crime.
11:57And our responsibility as decision makers and policy makers is to make sure that we do
12:04not create more division in our societies, but less.
12:09And now, of course, it's your turn for a question.
12:11So, Charlie Weimers, I'm interested to know if you would say that Morocco, Egypt and Tunisia
12:20are safe countries, for example, for people belonging to the LGBT community or for journalists
12:28or political dissidents.
12:30These are safe countries.
12:32They're not at war.
12:33They have no situation in which a major persecution is ongoing.
12:40So we should be able to send back migrants coming from there because those migrants are
12:45generally not fleeing for their lives.
12:47So you're saying it's not an ideal place, perhaps, for your lifestyle, but if you do
12:53not have the right to be legal in Europe, you should go back to Morocco.
12:56That's what I'm saying.
12:58And this has been the problem for many years that people have been coming to Europe, not
13:03because they fled a war, but because they looked for a better life.
13:09They came from safe countries of origin.
13:11But prosecution may not be a war.
13:13She's talking about the LGBTQ plus community.
13:15I understand that it's not optimal for an LGBTQ person to be in Morocco, but we cannot be
13:26the destination of all people living under non-Western regimes.
13:31That's not how it can work.
13:32And we also have the situation where people pass through safe countries on their way to countries
13:38such as Germany, Finland, Sweden, and that can't stand.
13:42That's why it's so important what the commission has now proposed and what we're dealing with
13:49now in the parliament to establish these safe countries of origin.
13:52So you're saying it's not ideal, but it's also not Europe's problem.
13:56Yes.
13:57I think there is a huge contradiction here when it comes to the rhetoric of the extreme and
14:01of the far right, because on the one hand, you're kind of saying that everybody, you
14:05know, that these countries, these cultures, that these people that are coming here are
14:08dangerous and they do not respect.
14:11I mean, this is your rhetoric.
14:12This is how you talk, not me.
14:13And they do not respect the rules of our societies.
14:16They do not respect women's rights, for example, or the rights of LGBT community.
14:21But then when it comes to EU legislation, you're all of a sudden saying that, yes, it's completely
14:25safe for people who belong to the LGBTQI community or for journalists, political dissidents, young
14:31women to go back to these countries.
14:32No need to be very specific when it comes to their asylum claims.
14:36And this is also actually contradictory to what the European parliament itself has said
14:40that has adopted several resolutions concerning the human rights abuses and problems in, for
14:46example, Egypt and Tunisia.
14:48You talk about violence and some of the violence that some women may face if they have to go back
14:53to countries that you say are not safe.
14:54Some argue, however, women in Europe, and I'm sure you would agree with this, have become
14:59less safe as a result of uncontrolled illegal migration.
15:03And this is exactly the contradiction of their rhetoric.
15:07I mean, I have always said that we have patriarchal structures everywhere.
15:12So it's a patriarchy.
15:13I don't know any society that is free, unfortunately, is free from violence against women that are free
15:19from patriarchal structures.
15:20But the foreign extreme right try to present it as this is something that is coming to
15:25from elsewhere.
15:26And now at the same time, migration is a patriarchy that's a problem.
15:29I would say so, because do you know any society that is free of those problems?
15:33I do not, unfortunately.
15:34I mean, there are countries and regimes such as the Taliban regime where it's, of course,
15:39much, much worse.
15:40But I also come from a country with very high numbers when it comes to violence against women
15:45and domestic violence.
15:47So trying to say that this is a problem only in some places is not correct.
15:52Okay, well, just for a second, let's stop here because I want to bring in now a new voice.
15:58And now in reaction to the European Council's decision to reform the EU migration pact, which
16:07you alluded to and introduces now a solidarity pull, the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban
16:13said on social media that, quote, the latest Brazilian decision requires that from next
16:20July, Hungary must either take migrants in from other European countries or pay for them.
16:25And I want to make it absolutely clear, and that's a quote, for once and for all, that
16:30as long as Hungary has a national government, we will not implement this outrageous decision.
16:37Now, my question to you is, does Viktor Orban have a point?
16:41Yeah, well, Sweden is among those countries supposed to take the most migrants through this solidarity
16:48mechanism.
16:49And I wonder, has the commission even looked at how many migrants Sweden has taken during
16:55the last decades?
16:57No, they have not.
16:58They have not taken that into account.
17:00So instead, we will have to pay in to Brussels a fee for not receiving forced migration upon
17:08Sweden.
17:09I think that's a principle in breach with subsidiarity.
17:13That's why I voted against that principle.
17:15And that's why I claim that it's morally wrong.
17:18The Greeks, they'll say we need help.
17:20And that means either financial compensation or a quota.
17:22How do you respond to that?
17:24That should be managed through the ordinary EU budget.
17:27They should get help.
17:28They should get EU financing for border barriers, which they are not being provided with at the
17:35moment, which my opponent is against.
17:37So that we could offer, but not by implementing a system in which Sweden is supposed to accept
17:45migrants by dictate from Brussels.
17:47And on this point, either you take a quota of people or you pay to facilitate, obviously,
17:53financial assistance.
17:54Some would argue the issue is that that's not really how it works.
17:57The core problem is the number of arrivals to deal with it.
18:00You need to bring down that migration.
18:02This migration pact will not work in real life, will it?
18:05I think it depends very much on what other types of policies and actions the EU will do
18:11in terms of migration, like how we succeed in terms with legal pathways, for example.
18:16As long as there are no legal pathways, we will continue to see irregular flows of migrants
18:21doing these very dangerous trips over the Mediterranean.
18:25And I sincerely hope that Sweden will not walk down the path of Hungary where you openly
18:30disobey binding EU law.
18:32So I think that this solidarity mechanism is a good part of this asylum and migration policy
18:38pact that was decided last Monday.
18:41Because at the moment, the biggest pressure, of course, is directed at these countries in
18:47the southern part of Europe just because of their geographical location.
18:50But they don't want the money.
18:51They want people out.
18:52And the countries, they say, we don't want people in.
18:54I think they have a point there.
18:55I don't think it's fair that they introduced this possibility of buying yourself out of
18:59solidarity as part of this solidarity mechanism.
19:02So I think it would be much better, actually, if you would then require countries to actually
19:07accept migrants and hopefully also that the relocation can be done on a voluntary basis.
19:12So accept migrants and relocation?
19:13From the point of view of the migrants.
19:15That will lead to a massive crisis of legitimacy.
19:18Brussels forcing migrants upon unwilling member states.
19:22Can you imagine the popular reaction?
19:24Well, I think that parties like mine would thrive.
19:28So à la bonheur.
19:29But it's also Brussels that has decided to use these rules about you having to apply
19:35for asylum in the first country that you are right to.
19:38And this is what has created the pressure on southern Europe.
19:41So whether we like it or not, this is a European question.
19:44OK, let's take a short break.
19:46We've got to take a short break here on the ring.
19:48Please, however, stay with us.
19:50We'll be back very soon with more Political Punch.
20:02Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' new weekly show.
20:05I'm joined by MEPs Charlie Weimers and Lee Anderson.
20:09And the idea here is to bring the European Parliament's debate to your couch.
20:14So what about you?
20:15That is the question.
20:16What do you think are the most important issues that the EU is facing?
20:21When asked about the most important issues facing the European Union in a poll,
20:26responders most frequently cited the war in Ukraine.
20:30And immigration followed as the second most significant concern.
20:34The international situation more broadly was mentioned by 19% of the responders,
20:39while security and defense appeared highlighted by 18%.
20:42Immigration, of course, Western Europe is living with the consequences of a liberal migration policy.
20:51And we need to deal with that now.
20:53We need to fix the problems that other politicians have caused through a very reckless policy in which
21:02they let in a whole lot of people who never really had asylum reasons.
21:07Is Europe changing too much?
21:09And when you hear Europe should stay Europe, does that mean Christian and what?
21:13Well, I mean, for instance, my party is among the biggest among people with an immigrant background in Sweden.
21:24So it has nothing with skin color to do.
21:26It has with a wish to have our countries remained what it used to be when people came here.
21:34I do not think that social cohesion is based on what religion or ethnicity you share.
21:40I think social cohesion is something absolutely that you can create in societies with well-functioning services,
21:46to trust, to building this culture of trust, to having well-functioning services.
21:50And a big concern that we have now when we talk about these new migration policies from the EU side
21:56is that in many parts of these, Europe is taking steps away from a human rights-based way of making policies.
22:06How is this a violation to international law?
22:08I mean, Jovina Maloney was not able to do her Albania plan because it was contrary to EU law.
22:15It was also contrary...
22:16She was successful to the extent that everyone wants to replicate it now.
22:19It was also... Exactly. But it doesn't take away the fundamental problems legally.
22:24So it was contrary to EU law. It's contrary to some human rights law as well.
22:28And now they are trying to change EU law to make it legal.
22:33We've got to move on. However, I want to ask you a final question.
22:36The Italian prime minister, she made a bet which said,
22:38OK, I know this will end up in court, but it is still worth the risk because of the signal that it will send.
22:44Is that something that you agree?
22:45Sometimes playing around with the law politically may be useful?
22:48She did the right thing. And look what happens now.
22:51The EU is moving forward with the concept of return hubs.
22:56Even if it's illegal? Even at the risk that it may be illegal?
22:58Well, we're making it possible now for individual member states to make agreements with third countries to establish return hubs.
23:05Even if there's a possibility that it may be illegal?
23:08Well, it will be legal when we have voted. So it's on its way.
23:14And even if the European Parliament will accept these laws, that means a big step away from respecting human rights obligations and human rights safeguards,
23:24the EU member states will still be bound by international human rights treaties.
23:28So there will still be the issue of the European Convention on Human Rights, for example,
23:32that will still mean that countries have a legal responsibility for the people that seek asylum.
23:38So I do not think that the legal question will be dealt with at the point where the European Parliament accept these laws.
23:45I do think that there will still be big legal issues.
23:48Well, Leandr Jean keeps repeating non-refoulement.
23:52And that, in practice, Leandr Jean, means that you don't want to deport a convicted rapist or terrorist
23:58if there's a slight theoretical chance of mistreatment in the country of origin.
24:03My policy is very simple.
24:06If you rape someone, if you murder someone, you go home.
24:10If you rape someone, you've got to go?
24:11As I said, it is possible to deport convicted criminals.
24:15That is not the case.
24:16But the rate is very low, actually.
24:18And it's not a theoretical.
24:20I mean, I really recommend to Charlie Weimers also to read some of the court cases from the European Court of Human Rights,
24:26especially on how they also actually have more liberal line on these cases than they did before.
24:31For me, the most important thing is that Europe stays true to the fundamental values of Europe.
24:38It is dangerous that in this time with rising extreme right forces, we see Orbán, we see Putin,
24:44we see all of these authoritarian leaders who do not respect international law,
24:50that do not respect human rights law.
24:52We are hearing the same voices in Europe saying we should not,
24:56we should just disregard what the human rights treatise said and forget about these fundamental principles.
25:01That is dangerous for all of us.
25:03We continue now into our fifth and final round, so hopefully you're ready.
25:08I'm going to ask you a set of questions.
25:13And of course, the answer, I know it's difficult at times, but it must be a yes or no answer.
25:18So let's see if we manage to.
25:21The first question, do return hubs outside of the European Union undermine the right to seek asylum?
25:27No, because it's about returns of failed asylum seekers.
25:31Yes.
25:32When you look at return hubs paid by the EU, yes or no, that's taxpayer money?
25:39Yes, potentially.
25:40No, it will be an extremely expensive and ineffective system.
25:45Human rights laws, are they becoming or preventing the European Union from protecting its own borders?
25:51Yes, it's stopping the EU from protecting its own citizens.
25:55So human rights have become a problem, yes or no?
25:58Human rights, international legislation has become a problem.
26:02No, states have the right to protect their own borders under international law.
26:06I think that is completely clear and nobody has contested that.
26:09Human rights law creates certain obligations on states to respect the fundamental rights of people seeking refuge.
26:17That is what we are discussing now.
26:19There's, however, a point which we want to treat very delicately, and that is this tougher migration laws.
26:25Are they connected or could they be fueling the tragic accidents that we see in the Mediterranean?
26:31Do you see a connection, yes or no?
26:33We're taking a big risk that leads to deaths.
26:35No, it's the open borders that incentivizes deadly boats over the Mediterranean.
26:42Yes, it is the lack of legal pathways for migration that creates the situation in the Mediterranean.
26:49Some countries assimilate better than others, yes or no?
26:51Absolutely.
26:52I mean, that's a no-brainer.
26:54This is a very dangerous part of the extreme rhetoric, where they're trying to present certain cultures as incompatible with each other.
27:01And this, I mean, this is also, it's the same rhetoric that has been used, that was used on skin color, used to be used, and now we are talking about cultures.
27:09And final question, has your opponent in any way managed to change your mind, your views?
27:15No.
27:16Same question to you, but I can guess the answer already.
27:19No, surprisingly not.
27:20Thank you very much for joining us here on The Ring, on Euronews, and as every week and as ever, we want to hear from you and get your thoughts.
27:29So please do write to us at thering at euronews.com.
27:34And of course, see you soon on Euronews, and hopefully we can get a handshake, because that's also part of democracy.
27:40Thank you very much.
27:41Thank you very much.
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