Proverbs 19 with CSBS (full version)

Name: Proverbs 19 with CSBS (full version)
Uploaded: 2025-11-11T02:43:13+00:00
Duration: 1 h 44 s
Channel: American Torah

American Torah

16 hours ago

Better is a poor person who walks in his integrity than one who is crooked in speech and is a fool.
Proverbs 19:1 ESV

This chapter contains a wealth of advice on money, parenting, and just plain foolishness.

From Jay Carper at Common Sense Bible Study (https://CommonSenseBibleStudy.com) and American Torah (https://www.AmericanTorah.com).

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00:00:00I usually read from, I consult lots of other translations, King James, JPS, International

00:00:10Standard, Tree of Life, New King James, New American Standard, but the ESV is the one

00:00:17that I read pretty much on a daily basis.

00:00:21So if we start from the top of the chapter and think about those four questions, which

00:00:27proverb speaks to you, which one puzzles you, surprises you, or offends you.

00:00:34So does anybody have one of these proverbs that really stood out to them, was especially

00:00:39impactful or meaningful to your life, or resonated with you?

00:00:44Number one, better to be poor and honest than to have any money, than to be dishonest and

00:00:51a fool.

00:00:52That kind of fits me.

00:00:54Yeah, down in verse 22, I think, said essentially the same thing, but from a different, kind

00:01:00of different perspective.

00:01:02A poor man is better than a liar.

00:01:05I was kind of seeing that tongue-in-cheek.

00:01:09Well, yeah.

00:01:11It, yeah, we see people that are not so honest in doing really well.

00:01:18At least, it seems that they're doing really well materially, but I always have to wonder

00:01:23what their, what their life is like inside their own head.

00:01:27I mean, are they really happy with all the stuff that they've gotten?

00:01:32I don't know.

00:01:32What are your thoughts on this verse, Kenneth?

00:01:35Well, first to think about politics.

00:01:38A lot of politicians, the other side, whichever side you're on, the other side is the one

00:01:45that's always telling all the lies.

00:01:48Yeah, which really means both sides are telling lies, or all sides.

00:01:53Yeah, and I really would love to, you know, vote for an honest man for any kind of office.

00:02:00Well, they wouldn't be running this.

00:02:03Yeah.

00:02:03Do they really want to be in office?

00:02:05No.

00:02:06Would they have the notoriety in the position to be able to run for office if they were honest?

00:02:12I just kind of doubt it.

00:02:14Well, I think that regardless of how you start off, it is the rare person that's not corrupted.

00:02:22And thus, an honest person, I think, would look at this and say, why would I want to go there?

00:02:27You know, I could make a difference.

00:02:29But if they understand what's really going on, they're putting their soul at risk.

00:02:34Mm-hmm.

00:02:34One thing I always know is when a person, you know, in times of walking in integrity, you always have peace.

00:02:40There's always in your spirit and peace in relationships with others.

00:02:45But when you're walking with a crooked speech, you're always looking over your shoulder.

00:02:50You're always, it feels like chaos.

00:02:53It's just, you know, you're trying to stay ahead of the chaos, which is extremely stressful.

00:02:57And then things just fall apart.

00:03:00That's a good point.

00:03:01Yeah, and a lot of this has to do with relationships, too, I think, especially with verse 22.

00:03:07But you have to think about who would you rather be friends with?

00:03:10I mean, it's nice to have rich friends, but are they ever really going to be your friend?

00:03:15I mean, how can you have a really close relationship with someone that you know isn't honest?

00:03:21So you can have, I mean, if somebody is poor, well, you know, they can't do a whole lot for you materially, but they can actually be a friend.

00:03:30Because you can talk to them and relate to them and, you know, be honest with them.

00:03:35All right, who else has one that really stood out to you as especially significant?

00:03:40One that stood out to me, which is, it's puzzling as well.

00:03:45So why a slave cannot rule over his master?

00:03:50I think that's what it said.

00:03:52What verse is that?

00:03:53There was one about princes.

00:03:56It was just before the princes.

00:03:58Well, there's the, it's not fitting for a fool to live in luxury, much less for a slave to rule over princes.

00:04:03There you go.

00:04:04That's it.

00:04:06And so if I understand correctly, the Hebrew sense of a slave was what we would call indentureship at this time.

00:04:16And if somebody willingly gives up their freedom to meet their needs, I guess the implication is that in that state, you are not able to appropriate any leadership.

00:04:32Yeah, Joseph did.

00:04:35There's always an exception to the Proverbs.

00:04:38I mean, they're never, you can never apply them blanketly to every circumstance and every person.

00:04:44But if you think of the Proverbs as primarily being addressed to someone who is in the royal house, you know, a prince who's in training to potentially be the king.

00:04:54This is advice to a future king.

00:04:56So it's not fitting for a fool to live in luxury, much less for a slave to rule over princes.

00:05:02How would a king use that information?

00:05:05One way is in rewarding people who are, you know, who serve him.

00:05:10So if a king has somebody who is maybe really sly and is really great at subterfuge being a spy, but he's not an honest person, not maybe a fool in his personal life.

00:05:27You kind of have to have to be very wary about promoting that kind of person to too high of a position.

00:05:34You know, you can use him, but you can't put him in charge of anything.

00:05:38And then for a slave to rule over princes, one thing to think of here is if, you know, actually when princes are young, you do put a slave over them.

00:05:50You know, you put a eunuch or a tutor or somebody who is in charge of their education.

00:05:55But as they get older, they're supposed to outgrow that.

00:05:58If a prince never is never allowed to outgrow his tutor, then he's going to end up presenting that or he's not going to be able to grow into who he's supposed to be.

00:06:08And there's another proverb I'm trying to think of.

00:06:11I think it's in like chapter 28 or 29, where it talks about how there are five things that are hard to understand, six that are just really difficult.

00:06:22And one of those is a handmaid who is made to rule over her mistress.

00:06:29So, and you think about Sarah and Hagar and how Hagar was, you know, she was pregnant and she was expecting a child and, you know, she got too big for her riches, so to speak.

00:06:44So she took on an attitude of pride in one.

00:06:49I keep jumping around from thing to thing here, but this is also like somebody who wins the lottery.

00:06:54They've never learned to manage money, and then they're given all this money, and they end up blowing it all and in debt within just a couple of years.

00:07:04And it's the same thing.

00:07:06Go ahead.

00:07:07It's the same thing as giving somebody power.

00:07:09If you give somebody too much more power and authority than they're able to handle through their training or experience, then, you know, they're not going to handle it well.

00:07:22They're going to abuse it.

00:07:23They're going to mismanage.

00:07:26It's better to give that to people who have been trained for it and have been, you know, preparing through learning wisdom and experience over years.

00:07:36Does that make sense?

00:07:37If this is earmarked to a prince, then it is not wise for him to give away his power to somebody that he is to be exerting power to or over.

00:07:53So, yeah, if I'm taking that perspective, that kind of makes sense.

00:07:57Yeah, I think mostly it's just promoting somebody beyond what they're capable of handling or putting somebody over people who are more qualified.

00:08:06We see that in business a lot and in politics where you've heard the term people fail upward or promoted out of a job because, you know, somebody is incompetent or they're too difficult to work with.

00:08:20And it's not politically feasible to fire them or something like that.

00:08:26Frequently, they'll get transferred into a higher level job just to get rid of them.

00:08:31But that puts them into a position that gives them more opportunity to screw things up instead of less.

00:08:39So it's it may be politically expedient to promote somebody instead of firing them, at least in the moment.

00:08:48But in the long term, it's going to cause more problems than it solves.

00:08:50But if you take the focus away from the slave, because I would think a slave is capable or could be capable of rulership.

00:08:59But if you put the focus upon the prince, that makes more sense to me, because the prince has a.

00:09:07A calling of a certain level.

00:09:10That he's to meet or exceed, whereas the slave does not have that calling, although he could realize that.

00:09:17So that seems to be I do like your your the way you couched it, that this is instruction to rulership at that time.

00:09:26But to us now, obviously, so.

00:09:30Yeah, good.

00:09:32You know, the one that stood out to me.

00:09:35There are actually a couple of them.

00:09:37I'm going to go down to verse 22, which is related to the one that Kenneth brought up earlier.

00:09:42What is desired in a man is steadfast love and a poor man is better than a liar.

00:09:48What is desired in a man is loyalty.

00:09:50Let me see what that verse for for steadfast love is.

00:09:54Yeah, it's chesed, which is kind of what I thought it was.

00:09:58The King James translates it as kindness.

00:10:00ESV is steadfast love.

00:10:03TLV is loyalty.

00:10:03But really, that word chesed is is it's very close to the idea of grace, that it's undeserved faithfulness.

00:10:16You know, selfless love kind of thing, although not none of those are exactly right.

00:10:21But this is the love that God has for his people, chesed.

00:10:25And it's the love that Abraham showed to Isaac.

00:10:27So what you desire in a man is chesed, steadfast love or grace.

00:10:35And one of the defining characteristics of grace is the the ability or the willingness to overlook flaws.

00:10:43So what kind of person do you want to be friends with?

00:10:45Do you want to be friends with somebody who's always judging you?

00:10:48It's always pointing out your flaws.

00:10:50Or do you want to be friends with somebody who is willing to overlook them and be your friend regardless of your flaws?

00:10:56It's you know, you want somebody who's going to tell you when you're screwing up, but not go on and on about it, not always be rubbing your nose in every mistake that you make.

00:11:05And I think that, you know, they say that one of our greatest fears is public speaking.

00:11:11But is the fear really about public speaking or is it about being ridiculed and rejected?

00:11:17And if you have a friend that will accept you and overlook all your flaws, no matter how bad it gets, that's worth.

00:11:28I mean, I take one of those over 100 other friends.

00:11:32Because with that friend, you never have to worry about rejection for doing something stupid one day because we're all going to do something stupid.

00:11:39Now, if you continually do stupid things and you abuse that friendship, you're going to lose it eventually anyways.

00:11:46But that's your own fault.

00:11:48It's not because the other person is too judgmental and too ready to attack you and toss you to the side because you are just human.

00:11:56And so there's a lot of security in having a friend like that.

00:12:01And it's contrasted with, not contrasted, but paired with a poor man is better than a liar.

00:12:07Because, again, it doesn't really matter if this friend is rich or poor.

00:12:11It's so much better that if he knows who you are and he will still be your friend, not lie to you, not flatter you, but tell you the truth in love and then move on.

00:12:22And I have a few friends like that, I think.

00:12:26Yeah, I always, when you mention hesed here, the Hebrew hesed, I like the English word favor.

00:12:34Because oftentimes you hear in the Bible, Lord, if I have found favor in your eyes, such and such, if I have found favor, will you, can we have this relationship?

00:12:45Will you do this?

00:12:46Can we commune together or save me or deliver me or whatnot?

00:12:50That's what comes to mind as I read 22.

00:12:55It's we desire to have favor in other people, from other people, I should say.

00:13:00But that means integrity, right?

00:13:02That means walking in righteousness.

00:13:04That means that we have to have integrity as we walk in order to expect favor from someone.

00:13:12Yeah, good.

00:13:14All right, well, let's move on to puzzles.

00:13:16We already talked about one of those.

00:13:17Proverbs are frequently kind of opaque.

00:13:22So what proverb in this chapter was difficult for you to understand, or you're not really sure why Solomon would say that?

00:13:30Maybe it's just my translation, but I guess when it says strike a scoffer in 25, and the naive may become clever, but rebuke one who has understanding and he will gain knowledge.

00:13:45I mean, I get the second part, but I think it's the wording that kind of confuses me about the first one.

00:13:52So maybe the word scoffer is not necessarily the right word.

00:13:57What does it say?

00:14:00Mine says, I'm using the NASB, and it says strike a scoffer and the naive may become clever.

00:14:07But rebuke one who has understanding, and he will gain knowledge.

00:14:12All right, well, the word there.

00:14:14Go ahead.

00:14:16Well, I was just thinking, like, I mean, I understand the second part, and I think I understand what they mean by the first part.

00:14:22It's just the choice of words was just kind of, like, felt a little weird to me.

00:14:27Like, it seems like what it's saying in that first section is, like, somebody who really just kind of has no clue, just no clue at all.

00:14:39They might actually learn, but they won't actually have, like, knowledge.

00:14:44They might, you know, more like, I hate to say it this way, they might behave more like animals, like, just that response to conditioning.

00:14:54Yeah, I think that's pretty close, actually.

00:14:57You know, the scorner or the mocker and the naive, they're not necessarily always the same.

00:15:05But in this case, it's saying, you know, people respond differently to different kinds of correction.

00:15:13You know, if you've got a wise man, you can, you know, give him a gentle reproof, give him some advice, and he's going to learn from that, and that's going to change how he behaves in the future.

00:15:22But scoffers, they don't really learn.

00:15:24I mean, they're scoffers in our modern internet vernacular.

00:15:29We might call these trolls.

00:15:31There are people out there who are trying to provoke contention.

00:15:35They're making fun of things they don't understand.

00:15:38They are, they're not really interested in learning.

00:15:41They want to provoke a reaction.

00:15:44They want to make fun of things.

00:15:45So, if you correct that person verbally, well, they already know they're wrong.

00:15:51They're just making fun of you just for the fun of it.

00:15:53So, you can't just tell them something.

00:15:56You can't give them advice and expect them to take it and change.

00:16:01It takes a different kind of correction.

00:16:02And in this case, he's saying, strike a scoffer.

00:16:06I mean, it may not be appropriate to go around smacking people who are acting like trolls as much as I would really like to.

00:16:15But, you know, at least the equivalent of it might be the only thing you can do.

00:16:21Kind of going back to that proverb from a few chapters ago that says, you know, don't, I don't remember the exact wording, but essentially don't respond to a fool, you know, in his own manner.

00:16:34Or you're going to become like him, but respond to a fool, you know, according to his foolishness, or he'll be wise in his own eyes.

00:16:41And the idea is that you need to know how to respond to that person to have the desired effect.

00:16:46Rather than addressing the actual thing that they're scoffing, like saying, hey, you're wrong because of this.

00:16:51Well, they don't care.

00:16:54You have to find some other way to get to them.

00:16:57You've seen a lot of movies, probably experienced it in your life in high school, or that's usually the area that you see this.

00:17:06But the bully situation where a bully is acting as a scoffer, if you will, to the norms of society.

00:17:17And you've got the people that follow that bully.

00:17:22They may become a bully or scoffer themselves.

00:17:25But when that bully is put in their place, it can, not that it always does, it can empower not only the victim, but those people that are following them blindly to at least think about what they're doing and maybe change their ways.

00:17:42So it's kind of along those lines as well.

00:17:46Yeah, I think there are people who may be onlookers, whether it's the scoffer himself.

00:17:55I mean, some scoffers are just doing it because they just get a kick out of poking people, not necessarily because they're super skilled trolls.

00:18:07And we have both on the internet.

00:18:08We've got people who will actively search out specific kinds of conversations to insert themselves into because they've got a formula or they've got a script that they follow in order to get under people's skin.

00:18:21It doesn't matter what you do to those people.

00:18:23If you make them look like a fool, they will frequently go away or they'll just change their argument and mock something else.

00:18:29But if they're really not that dedicated to being a troll, if they're just scoffing at something on the spur of the moment, if you correct them harshly or in some way that really gets to them, they will behave like a dog that you just struck.

00:18:46They might not necessarily learn the lesson that you want them to learn, but they will become more circumspect in their approach to other people.

00:18:55They will learn not to be an open scoffer so much.

00:19:00And same with those people that you're talking about, Scott, those people who are admiring the bully and following him around, trying to learn his way.

00:19:09Well, these people usually aren't as clever.

00:19:11They're the simple and naive.

00:19:13They're the wannabes.

00:19:16They're going to watch that and say, you know, think that, well, whether they think it to themselves, they're going to realize that I'm not as smart as the guy that I'm following around.

00:19:28And if he's being made a fool of, I better keep my mouth shut too.

00:19:32And that's where the prudence comes in.

00:19:35The simple one learns prudence.

00:19:39Other scoffers, you know, they just have to keep getting beaten before they really learn anything.

00:19:46Does that make sense of it, Paula?

00:19:49Yeah.

00:19:50Okay.

00:19:51Who else has one that you might find puzzling?

00:19:55I wrote down verse 11 for myself.

00:19:58Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

00:20:04Did I mean to write verse 11?

00:20:06It's the second half of this one that puzzles me more.

00:20:09You know, good sense makes one slow to anger, meaning that good sense, meaning being thoughtful.

00:20:17If you're thoughtful about something and you don't just react, well, then you're slow to anger by definition.

00:20:22But it is to his glory to overlook an offense.

00:20:26In my personal life, I mean, from my personal experience, if you overlook offenses, people tend to offend you more.

00:20:36They will look down on you.

00:20:39They won't admire you for it.

00:20:42They will perceive you as being weak or passive.

00:20:47Yep.

00:20:47So I'm not exactly sure how it's to – I mean, I can imagine some circumstances in which it might be glory to overlook an offense.

00:20:57If everybody knows who you are and they know that you're not weak, you walk up to Muhammad Ali when he was in his prime, and you offend him like you punch him.

00:21:10And he kind of laughs and taps you on the shoulder and walks away.

00:21:15Nobody's going to look down on him for that.

00:21:17Everybody admires him because of his restraint.

00:21:20But what about the rest of us?

00:21:22I mean, obviously, if I did that, anybody does that, everybody's going to think that guy's a fool.

00:21:26But if some stranger walks up to you and punches you on the nose, and how do you respond to that?

00:21:37Do other people admire it if you shrug and walk away or laugh it off like Muhammad Ali would?

00:21:44I haven't been in a lot of fights, especially not since junior high, but I know this isn't necessarily talking about physical blows.

00:21:51It's talking about all kinds of offense.

00:21:54And I think the verbal sorts of offense, insults, things like that, are much more damaging to your reputation.

00:22:02I mean, if somebody comes in and starts a fight with you, people might not look down on you for not fighting back, which kind of depends on what crowd you hang around with.

00:22:14But if somebody is constantly insulting and belittling you, and you just overlook it, I'm not sure how that brings you any kind of honor or glory, as this verse puts it.

00:22:27So I welcome all of your opinions and thoughts on this.

00:22:30My thought on this is, the offense happens, and that you deal with the offense, you let the person know you are offended, and you deal with it.

00:22:41And then you don't hold it against that person once it's settled, once the matter is settled.

00:22:48I think you stand your ground, you let the person know, hey, this offended me, this wasn't right.

00:22:53And you kind of work through it with the person.

00:22:55And once it's done, that means you're not going to hold it against them anymore.

00:23:00But you're going to basically free them of the offense.

00:23:04Okay, so not overlooking that it happened, just not holding on to it.

00:23:09Correct.

00:23:10Yes.

00:23:11Okay.

00:23:12I like that.

00:23:13Yeshua had the right to pass judgment or to...

00:23:21He had the right to be offended.

00:23:23He had the right to correct and put in place and often overlooked the mess that he was existing in.

00:23:33There's got to be a tie in there somehow.

00:23:35I think you'd look to him as the example.

00:23:37If somebody or some being has the power to righteously destroy or righteously apply justice and chooses not to so that perpetrator has a chance to amend their ways, there's a type of glory in that.

00:24:04I mean, it's just grace to the tenfold, you know?

00:24:09So I think if we are doing that, there's got to be some sort of correlation there.

00:24:15I'm not verbalizing it well, but I think that's an avenue that I would go down.

00:24:19Yeah, I think there's a scale involved, too.

00:24:23So if you are...

00:24:25You think about Yeshua on the cross, and he's up there and saying, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

00:24:32I mean, that is such an extraordinary statement.

00:24:36I've been picked on and called names, all kinds of things like that.

00:24:39And, you know, it's one thing for me to just turn around and walk away, but for somebody who has beaten you to an inch of your life, tortured you, and hung you up to die, and then you say, I forgive you.

00:24:55I mean, everybody's got to say, wow, at something like that.

00:24:58Yeah, even if he didn't have the power to destroy them all in an instant.

00:25:03Yep.

00:25:05All right, so anybody else have a proverb that puzzles you?

00:25:10Or any thoughts on the ones that we've already talked about?

00:25:13Well, what about surprises you?

00:25:16Sometimes that's the same as puzzled, but not necessarily.

00:25:20In verse 15, slothfulness casts into deep sleep.

00:25:25Actually, I probably could have put this one in puzzled.

00:25:28And an idle person will suffer hunger.

00:25:31It took me a while to figure out what slothfulness casts into a deep sleep means.

00:25:37Lazy people sleep soundly.

00:25:40Wow, that is a very different idea.

00:25:43You said 15, didn't you?

00:25:45Yeah.

00:25:47Lazy people sleep soundly, but idleness leaves them hungry.

00:25:51I've got to look at what this one says.

00:25:53It says, laziness makes people fall asleep, and an idle person will go hungry.

00:26:00Yes.

00:26:01The King James says, slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep.

00:26:06And what translation are you reading, Kenneth?

00:26:09The first one I read was NLT.

00:26:13I don't know what that is.

00:26:14And the second one is the Complete Jewish Bible.

00:26:17Yeah, that's a very, I mean, the words are similar.

00:26:21You know, they're kind of synonyms, but it sounds like lethargy and deep sleep are different kinds of things.

00:26:28But, you know, the thing that really surprised me about this one is the word here for deep sleep, or lethargy, or whatever it's translated as in various translations, is Tardemah, if I'm pronouncing that correctly.

00:26:45And it's also used in Genesis 2.21.

00:26:49So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept, took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.

00:26:57So in this instance, I mean, we know that this deep sleep is not taking a nap.

00:27:04This is somebody is out cold, and not going to wake up until somebody, you know, wakes him up.

00:27:09Essentially, he's under anesthesia, literally.

00:27:13And I was trying to think, you know, how does this, how does slothfulness put somebody in that kind of state?

00:27:20And one of the things that that idea of that deep sleep, I mean, if you think the sloth or the sluggard or the lazy man, he's not really in, he's not in a coma.

00:27:34He is alive and he's awake, but it's like he's in a deep sleep.

00:27:39The other people that are like this are the dead.

00:27:42And there's a place in the psalm, I can't remember which psalm it is, but where David is saying, you know, the dead don't understand what's happening.

00:27:51And in reading through the scriptures in the various places where it talks about the state of the dead in the grave in Sheol, they're in a state of semi-awareness.

00:28:04Like they can be called up like Samuel.

00:28:06So they can be woken up.

00:28:08But, you know, Samuel is like, let me go back to sleep.

00:28:11And the scripture talks about the dead as being asleep, but there's also the story of Lazarus and the rich man in the grave in their communicating.

00:28:24And, you know, it's a, it's a story.

00:28:25It's not necessarily a literal story, but it seems like the dead are in this in-between state.

00:28:31They're aware, but not aware at the same time.

00:28:35And so what if this is saying, like the lazy person is in that same state?

00:28:42He's essentially the walking dead.

00:28:44And that's because he is awake, but he's not really aware of the consequences of his inaction.

00:28:50It's like that, like the laziness hypnotizes him and makes him blind to his own needs.

00:28:57We all, we all, we work because we have to, because we have to live and eat and find shelter.

00:29:03And the lazy person doesn't do the things that he needs to do to survive.

00:29:10And it's because, mostly it's because he craves comfort.

00:29:14But the laziness is what denies him comfort.

00:29:18But he just can't see it because his mind just won't go there.

00:29:21So it's like he's sleepwalking through life.

00:29:24Anyways, that's, that's the train that my thoughts went down when I was trying to think through what it means for a lazy person to be in, in deep sleep.

00:29:35And the second half of the verse goes along with that because it says an idle person will suffer hunger and he suffers hunger because he failed to realize that his idleness was creating the hunger.

00:29:45Or maybe he does realize it on some level.

00:29:47You know, I've talked to lazy people who said, you know, I know what I have to do.

00:29:50I know that this is going to end badly.

00:29:52I just can't bring myself to do it.

00:29:53And I've been there myself many times.

00:29:57And it's really like sleepwalking at some level.

00:30:01Okay, well, what, what other proverbs puzzled you or made you think pretty hard about what they might mean?

00:30:07For me, it'd be number eight, at least the first half one.

00:30:12Whoever gets sense loves his own soul.

00:30:17Did you repeat that?

00:30:18That's number eight.

00:30:20Whoever gets sense loves his own soul.

00:30:22He who keeps understanding will discover good.

00:30:26I get the he who keeps understanding will discover good, but I'm kind of puzzled by whoever gets sense loves his own soul.

00:30:35It's kind of puzzling to me.

00:30:37Okay.

00:30:38Let's take a look at what the words are.

00:30:39S-E-N-S.

00:30:40I can't.

00:30:41It's not coming through to me.

00:30:42Sense, whoever gets what?

00:30:45Good sense.

00:30:45Whoever gets sense loves his own soul.

00:30:51Yeah.

00:30:51The King James translates that as wisdom.

00:30:53But the word is, is leb, which really means heart.

00:30:58And if you think about the Hebrew perspective of the heart is that that's the, that's the seat of your consciousness.

00:31:08Your, all your thought processes are in your heart.

00:31:09So some translations will say mind where the Hebrew actually says heart, but the heart is really where you do all your thinking.

00:31:19So I think good sense is probably, you know, a better translation than wisdom.

00:31:25Whoever, well, it says get, it just says sense, not good sense.

00:31:28Whoever gets sense loves his own soul.

00:31:32Yeah.

00:31:32So what does that mean?

00:31:34Understanding maybe?

00:31:36Yeah.

00:31:37I like, I like wisdom now that, you know, I, I see the, if the lay of in Hebrew and so totally makes sense because it was where, you know, we think of it as emotion, as emotions, but you know, your heart is emotions, but the Hebrew mindset is wisdom, more knowledge and stuff like that.

00:31:56But then he loves his own soul.

00:31:58Is he really sure of himself then confident in himself or does he rest in himself?

00:32:04Like he's got good self-confidence, I think.

00:32:08Could be.

00:32:09I mean, the word soul here is nephesh, which can mean your being.

00:32:15I mean, it doesn't mean spirit.

00:32:16It means your whole being.

00:32:17Right.

00:32:17Your whole being.

00:32:18That's the way I take it too.

00:32:20Yeah.

00:32:20But it's sometimes also used in the sense of your flesh or also your, your personal drive, like somebody who is really motivated.

00:32:30That's, that word can be used in that sense too.

00:32:34Sure.

00:32:35I mean, I get he who keeps understanding will find good.

00:32:39So if the two are kind of going together.

00:32:41Then it is kind of like in my, in kind of way I'm processing this, it's, you know, people get depressed, they get hard on themselves and so forth.

00:32:52But if you have good wisdom, you will understand God's love.

00:32:58You'll understand you're made in his image.

00:33:00You'll love your soul.

00:33:01In other words, you'll walk in like a confidence.

00:33:03Uh, and then you'll, you'll find good, not arrogance or pride.

00:33:08I'm not, I don't think it goes that far.

00:33:11It's just because good wisdom wouldn't lead you into pride.

00:33:15Would it not be pointing to not being reactive or emotional, but rather trying to approach whatever your situation is from a logical or a mindful.

00:33:34Approach.

00:33:36Mm-hmm.

00:33:36Like cultivating clear thinking, like learning how to think right.

00:33:40Yeah.

00:33:40Yep.

00:33:41Yep.

00:33:42Yeah.

00:33:43Yeah.

00:33:43If you, if you love your life, your life will certainly be better if you learn to think clearly and not, not just react to everything.

00:33:51Everything.

00:33:51Right.

00:33:53Yeah.

00:33:53That makes sense.

00:33:54Teamwork.

00:33:56Can I, you definitely got to look at.

00:33:57I'm looking at the new King James version and mine cross references with chapter 16, verse 20.

00:34:10And that says, he who heeds the word wisely will find good and whoever trusts in the Lord, happy is he.

00:34:22And I guess the reason that jumped out at me is happy for me is, is a description of obviously a state of our heart or our, you know, our being, our feeling, emotion, but also just our whole being, happiness.

00:34:42And when it says, he who gets wisdom loves his own soul, I gather that part of that is being, being happy to have trust in the Lord and listening to the word of the Lord or heeding it, I guess.

00:35:00In this case, I don't know if that adds anything.

00:35:03It just, it brings to me, it brings a different, a different description of loving your own soul, being happy in the Lord.

00:35:14Yeah, that is interesting.

00:35:15It kind of, if you think of, I was reading it as whoever gets sense, he does it because he loves his own soul.

00:35:22But it's also possible that he loves his own soul because he's getting sense and wisdom, like he's loving his life.

00:35:32He's happier because of it.

00:35:33That's kind of how I read it, I guess, was kind of the reverse was because maybe of how I'm feeling in my own life right now is just, I'm feeling happier because I'm getting wisdom from reading the word.

00:35:48And so, I guess it would flip it a little bit.

00:35:54Great observation.

00:35:57And welcome, Lisa.

00:35:59Sorry, I have a commitment before this, so I'm always late.

00:36:03So, thank you.

00:36:04Okay, does anyone else have one that puzzled you or surprised you?

00:36:09All right, well, let's move on to offend.

00:36:11And then when Paula comes back, she can chime in on what surprised her.

00:36:16So, what in here offended you?

00:36:19And this doesn't necessarily mean that it made you mad, but, you know, maybe it just reminded you too much of yourself.

00:36:26Well, I thought 18, in my version, it says,

00:36:31Chasing your son while there is hope and do not set your heart on his destruction.

00:36:36And I, in reading that, it said, to put him to death, a Jewish tradition on his crying.

00:36:48And I didn't understand that.

00:36:50It also was kind of a, I didn't understand if that meant putting your son to death and what, what, what does that even mean?

00:36:58That's interesting, because that's the one I was going to say surprised me in terms of the wording of this translation.

00:37:05Not so much that I didn't understand it, but just how the interpretations apparently are very, are very varied in terms of the translation.

00:37:17Yeah, the translations are all over the map.

00:37:19Have you ever seen the movie The Jazz Singer?

00:37:24No, I haven't seen it.

00:37:25There are a couple of versions.

00:37:26There's a Neil Diamond version, and there's a Jimmy Cantor version.

00:37:31But anyways, the, the movie goes like this.

00:37:35We'll talk about the Neil Diamond version.

00:37:38He is pursuing his career of music at the expense of his Jewish tradition being trained to be a kid.

00:37:50His father disowns him, does the old tearing of the, of the clothing.

00:37:57Okay.

00:37:58In other words, his son is dead to him.

00:38:01His father dies or is dying.

00:38:04Neil Diamond becomes famous and he's singing all over the place.

00:38:08And he wants to reconcile with his father, but there's a pride thing there because you died to me.

00:38:17Ultimately, Neil Diamond becomes the cantor.

00:38:20His character becomes the cantor upon his father's death.

00:38:23So he had to choose between his career and his, and the tradition.

00:38:28And I'm thinking that the, the death eliminates all signs of hope.

00:38:38I mean, I've struggled with this with my son in terms of how do I interact with him because of rejection that he's had on.

00:38:45And, you know, it would be very easy for me to, to be very cast out-ish, if you will.

00:38:53But the more or the longer I continue to relate, the more I realize there's still that soul in him that was the young kid who did not run away and who was open to teaching correction and such.

00:39:10He's never going, he's not there at this point, but, you know, I got to keep that door open.

00:39:15So maybe it's something along those lines.

00:39:19Yeah.

00:39:19And, um, Tony, this is verse 18.

00:39:22I think that was you who was asking earlier.

00:39:24Lisa.

00:39:25There is a really big difference between the translations.

00:39:28And when I look at the Hebrew word for crying, I have no idea where the King James translators got crying.

00:39:35The Hebrew word is moot, which is to die or to kill.

00:39:40So it's talking about the son dying.

00:39:43And I think that Scott's understanding there, at least that's how I understand it, too.

00:39:47And I think the ESV has a much better translation in this case.

00:39:52Do not set your heart on putting him to death.

00:39:54But I think that even that isn't quite right.

00:39:57Because I don't think it's saying that, that don't make it your goal to kill him.

00:40:02Um, it's saying, don't give up hope in his coming around.

00:40:07Like, don't, don't determine in your heart that he's already dead.

00:40:12Because there's always hope.

00:40:13As long as he's still alive, there's hope that he's going to come around.

00:40:18Okay.

00:40:18So now I just turned to an, I have another version here.

00:40:21And this is NASB.

00:40:25And that one says, discipline your son while there is hope and do not desire his death.

00:40:30Yeah, that's what my translation has.

00:40:33Okay.

00:40:33That makes a lot more sense now.

00:40:35Yeah.

00:40:36But I think, too, I think there's a couple ways to kind of look at it.

00:40:39It's like, discipline your son while there's hope.

00:40:43And I think there's a different, I guess there's a note in mine that says, and do not cause him to die.

00:40:51And that took me kind of to a different perspective.

00:40:54It's like, if you don't discipline, you will cause him to die.

00:40:59So there's another perspective about it, too, that we can kind of take from the discipline, discipline him while you can.

00:41:07You know, while there is hope to be able to discipline him and get him on the right path, because otherwise you might cause him to die.

00:41:18And I don't mean, like, you know, if your kids go astray that, like, it's your fault.

00:41:24That's not the case.

00:41:25I mean, I think there are times when that's the case, when you just don't do anything to raise your kids.

00:41:30But I also know that there are people who have raised their kids pretty well, and they've gone astray.

00:41:37So I think maybe there's kind of two perspectives to look at this from.

00:41:42The way that you were talking about it, Scott, and then also the way of, like, just make sure that you do discipline them while you have the ability to do that.

00:41:53Which, to me, would be, like, when they're young.

00:41:55So, obviously, when they're as young as you can get them to be able to start having them accept your authority.

00:42:04So if I'm hearing you correctly, then it's, like, the first part of it, discipline your son for there is hope.

00:42:10Or, you know, and then the second part is, what happens if you don't discipline your son?

00:42:14What if you decide to do that?

00:42:16Well, then you're actually just setting your heart to put them to death.

00:42:19By not disciplining them, you're giving them, you're putting them on the path to death.

00:42:26Yeah, that's the perspective that I was getting out of it.

00:42:30Just because, probably because of the way it's worded and because of some notes in the translation.

00:42:35But I do think it has, I think you can look at this both ways.

00:42:39Because I do think that, yes, you know, don't think that they're dead when there's still time.

00:42:46There's still hope.

00:42:47There's still engaging.

00:42:48You know, there's another curious thing in the Hebrew here, where most of these translations say, do not set your heart.

00:42:56And King James says, let not your soul.

00:43:00King James is actually closer on that one.

00:43:03Because the Hebrew word is nefesh.

00:43:05It's the same one we were just talking about that means your whole being.

00:43:10So it's odd that it would say, don't set your heart.

00:43:13I mean, it's trying to be a dynamic translation and you translate the meaning rather than the actual words.

00:43:20But nefesh really is a different kind of thing than your heart.

00:43:26The meaning is still there.

00:43:28It's not like a totally different meaning.

00:43:29It's still talking about your intent.

00:43:34Don't set your whole life up as if your son is dead.

00:43:40But anyways, I thought that was, it was curious that that same word is used.

00:43:44It's used for mind, soul, your life, heart.

00:43:51All these different words translate that one Hebrew word nefesh.

00:43:54Yeah, because if you don't look it up, when you hear the word heart, I think leif.

00:44:00Yeah, that's what I was expecting to find.

00:44:02Yeah.

00:44:03Yeah, that goes to, it just shows how different languages, different kinds of, or different peoples view different concepts.

00:44:14But, you know, when we talk about the heart, we're mostly talking about emotions.

00:44:18How do you feel about something?

00:44:19But, you know, to an ancient Hebrew, it's that, plus it's your thoughts and your intellect, your reason.

00:44:28But then there's also your flesh in, you know, the word nefesh.

00:44:32Well, in Hebrew, I mean, in English, if we say soul, well, you have to differentiate between spirit.

00:44:38Do you mean that?

00:44:39Or do you mean, you know, your being like, you know, lost so many souls at sea or whatever?

00:44:46Or do you mean flesh as in your evil inclination?

00:44:51Or, you know, there are all these different terms that could translate the same word.

00:44:56And there's so many levels to it.

00:44:58You know, depending on which word you translate the Hebrew into English, it could give a completely different sense in English than what was intended in the Hebrew and vice versa.

00:45:07So just as an aside, Daniel just messaged me, says that, you know, he couldn't make it today.

00:45:16They've got a basement flooding issue today and requested that we pray for them.

00:45:23So we will do that when we close.

00:45:26Anybody else have one that they're surprised or don't want to talk about that last one?

00:45:31Okay, and oh, we were talking about being offended.

00:45:35So who's offended?

00:45:38Verse 5 and verse 9 say almost exactly the same thing.

00:45:43A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will not escape.

00:45:48And then verse 9 says a false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.

00:45:54So those are almost exactly the same thing.

00:45:57I mean, escape and perish are obviously different, but the implication is that the one who doesn't escape will then perish.

00:46:05But the thing that I find offensive, for lack of a better word here, is that this isn't what I see in the real world.

00:46:13That this is an ideal situation.

00:46:15That, you know, people who are dishonest and lying, you know, eventually they're caught out.

00:46:20You know, you're building a house of cards, and, you know, if anybody comes and challenges it, it'll fall apart.

00:46:25And that's true for most lies, probably.

00:46:28But there are a lot of people in the world who are really good at building houses of cards.

00:46:33And they manage to go their entire lives.

00:46:36And they never get caught.

00:46:38I mean, somebody mentioned politicians earlier.

00:46:40And every time people talk about lies, we're automatically going to think about politicians.

00:46:45At least I do.

00:46:45And we know most of those politicians, at least in the United States, they will die of old age and still be wealthy and well-respected by millions of people.

00:46:58And it's not the proverb that offends me, of course.

00:47:02It's the reality that those people, they do escape.

00:47:06And they don't die because of their lies.

00:47:10That's what offends me.

00:47:11And I'm not sure exactly what to do about that.

00:47:16Not, like, do about them not dying.

00:47:18I'm not talking about that.

00:47:18I mean, what do I do with this proverb?

00:47:20How do I reconcile that with the reality that we see?

00:47:25But do they really escape?

00:47:26I mean, isn't the eternal punishment really what the verses are saying?

00:47:35That this is, you know, no matter what happens on the earth, they're not going to escape the eternal judgment for the false witness.

00:47:45Yeah, that's certainly true.

00:47:47That's one of those.

00:47:48Does it, I mean, I don't know if Proverbs is only referring to how to live on this earth, but, I mean, really, does it really matter whether they get judged by men or are punished by men for their transgressions?

00:48:05I mean, is that the measure of the, I don't know, the punishment that we care about?

00:48:14Well, I do, whether I should or not.

00:48:17And I definitely agree with you that nobody escapes these things forever.

00:48:22And liars are one of the things that Paul listed as the people who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

00:48:27And, you know, that doesn't mean somebody who tells a lie.

00:48:30That means somebody who makes a life of telling lies.

00:48:34And, yeah, they will get theirs eventually.

00:48:37Nobody escapes forever.

00:48:39Yeah, I think it's interesting because I do think that it's about a, I think this is also about a perspective on their punishment in the whole plan of, you know, time and eternity.

00:48:51If people go unpunished now, they will not be unpunished in the long run, right?

00:48:57But, but I also think that it is important that we try to bring justice in this world, not for the sake of just punishing people, but for the sake of the community and the people who live in the community.

00:49:14So there's that aspect, too.

00:49:17It's like, it's like for people who just want people to get punished, you know, like, Jay, now I'm kidding.

00:49:22But, like, to just want people to get punished because they need to get theirs, they need to get what's due to them, I think is different than wanting people to, wanting justice to be brought.

00:49:35And if punishment is part of that, there's a preservation that happens in the community.

00:49:41And so I think we should desire that.

00:49:44But, yeah, I agree.

00:49:46It's not always going to happen.

00:49:48Nobody's going to go unpunished.

00:49:51No matter what.

00:49:52It's a hard concept when you start to project everything to the afterlife.

00:49:57In my mind, life is not fair.

00:50:01That's a hard lesson to learn for me.

00:50:04I want it to be fair.

00:50:07And, you know, as it plays out, you just got to realize these are the dynamics in what are you going to choose, righteousness or are you going to choose something that's expedient?

00:50:20And that's the struggle for me.

00:50:22It's, you know, I don't like some of my approaches, some of the things I've said and done in my life that are reflective of life is not fair.

00:50:35And therefore, I need to function the way life is.

00:50:40And yet, I try to superimpose my faith.

00:50:45And there's the struggle.

00:50:47That's where the rubber meets the road.

00:50:48But it's, am I going to stand by what I believe?

00:50:54Or am I going to punt that?

00:50:56And that's the difficult thing for, I think, everybody, really.

00:51:03This is your belief.

00:51:04And are you going to walk by it?

00:51:08Or are you going to just give it service, you know?

00:51:11I'm just kind of skimming through my notes to see if there's anything else that I really wanted to bring up.

00:51:16I think, you know, verse 19.

00:51:18A lot of these have to do with parenting, either directly or indirectly.

00:51:24And I think, you know, where it talks about penalties and correcting people, a lot of this, a lot of these proverbs are warnings to leaders to say, you know, be careful who you choose to put in certain positions.

00:51:39And also, be careful that you are guiding people correctly early on before it gets too late.

00:51:46And you've got this guy in verse 19.

00:51:49A man of great wrath will pay the penalty.

00:51:51And it doesn't necessarily mean somebody who has a bad temper, but anybody who's ruled by their passions.

00:51:58And he will pay the penalty.

00:52:00But if you deliver him, you will only have to do it again.

00:52:04Meaning that if you continually rescue somebody from the consequences of their actions, they will never learn.

00:52:13Sometimes you just have to stop saving people and let them fall.

00:52:17Whether these are your children, your spouse, your parents, your good friends.

00:52:25It's hard to do, especially with people that you care about.

00:52:29But people need to learn to control their passions.

00:52:32And if you rescue them from letting their passions master them, they will never learn to master their passions.

00:52:43I think that's an important.

00:52:45Oh, sorry.

00:52:46Go ahead.

00:52:47Sorry.

00:52:48I think that, I think, leads to an important question, which is, like, how are we helping our children when we're guiding them and training them?

00:53:00And to figure that out.

00:53:03Because I think, I think that in the culture we live in, I don't think we have a lot of really great, I feel like people are very disconnected or they learn how to cope with their emotions poorly.

00:53:17And there's not a lot of training or mentorship around this for people.

00:53:22I think there probably used to be a lot more wisdom in the community around this, but now there's so much disconnection and so much dysfunction that, you know, learn behaviors, whatever it is.

00:53:37And so I just think it's interesting because it is obviously important, but, you know, the question is, like, how many people actually figure it out for themselves if they weren't taught that on their own and then are able to impart that to their children as they are growing?

00:53:57Like, like, giving them the tools that they need and really, it makes me think about there's a little, there's a little Instagram account that I follow.

00:54:07And the amount of grasp of emotional intelligence that the person whose account it is, is imparting to their children is mind-blowing to me.

00:54:21And they show videos of their kids, like, learning all this stuff just through life.

00:54:29And it blows my mind to see how young they are and how they're teaching them that.

00:54:34But it's like, how many people actually have those skills themselves to actually pass that on?

00:54:39So it's just interesting.

00:54:42It's like, it's one thing to be able to know truth or to have understanding.

00:54:45It's like, how do you actually help people with their emotional intelligence or whatever you want to call it?

00:54:53I would like to think that it's honorable to homeschool.

00:54:57We chose honorable.

00:54:58That's what we tried.

00:55:00We didn't do so hard.

00:55:03If you look at the final results, a lot of people are not even doing that.

00:55:08They are letting society teach and train their kids.

00:55:15And therein lies the problem because the people that are ruling society or influencing society, whatever you want to say, have basically taken the reins of morality.

00:55:33Unless you have the trans agenda in schools.

00:55:37And you can go through a plethora of items that we as parents have when we're allowing our kids into this culture.

00:55:46We've given over our rights.

00:55:50We've given over our power, if you will.

00:55:55And I'm starting to ramble.

00:55:59I'm sorry.

00:55:59But that's the gist of where I'm going is that we try to help and direct.

00:56:06And when we find that we can't, it's at the peril of our kids, unfortunately.

00:56:16Yeah.

00:56:16And which one was it?

00:56:19Verse 26.

00:56:21You know, all these are linked together.

00:56:23And one thing leads to another.

00:56:24If you don't teach them when you're young, you have to teach them when they're older.

00:56:28And then it just gets harder and harder until eventually you can't.

00:56:31There's nothing you can do when your children reach a certain age.

00:56:35Your job as teacher, if it hasn't taken by then, well, they're pretty much on their own to figure it out.

00:56:42And this, he who does violence to his father and chases away his mother is a son who brings shame and reproach.

00:56:48And if you think of this, again, as Solomon instructing his sons who, you know, probably don't have grown children of their own yet.

00:56:58And presumably they're not even married and starting a family yet.

00:57:03So they're still young.

00:57:04And he's telling them what it's like for a parent who has children who are bringing shame on their house.

00:57:12And this is a warning to start young.

00:57:16If you don't want your children to do violence to you when they're old, if you don't want them shaming their mother, then you better start now.

00:57:22And I think, you know, Jenny said it very well a few weeks back when she said that you want to train your children to be people you like.

00:57:32If you don't like your children, you've got all kinds of trouble.

00:57:35And so teach them to be people that you can like.

00:57:39Look at Solomon's kids.

00:57:41I mean, he's giving this instruction and look what happened.

00:57:44I think he was basically looking at a circumstance and saying, oh, it's I don't know of any in the Bible that is the model you want to strive for.

00:58:00I mean, are there not many?

00:58:03I mean, I can't think of any offhand.

00:58:06Harry and Joseph, they did a good job.

00:58:08They did a good job.

00:58:09You're right.

00:58:09But that's about it.

00:58:11I mean, it's amazing because I've thought about this before.

00:58:16And, you know, there's the ideal and you strive for the ideal and then realize that it is rarely realized, at least as an example, in the word.

00:58:27It's mind-blowing.

00:58:29Yeah, there are almost no good examples of happy marriages or happy families with children.

00:58:36They're just not there because that's not what we learned from.

00:58:38We learned from the bad examples.

00:58:41Yeah.

00:58:41So that's what God gives us.

00:58:43Yeah.

00:58:43And yeah, unfortunately, that's probably where Solomon got most of his wisdom, learning from his own bad examples from, you know, David and his messed up household and Solomon from his own messed up household.

00:58:56All right.

00:58:58So does anybody else have anything they want to talk about?

00:59:02Yes.

00:59:02I got to pull it up a verse 10.

00:59:07The very first part of it, you're going to find it.

00:59:10It is not fitting for a fool to live in luxury.

00:59:13And yet, isn't that what you were saying earlier, Jay?

00:59:18That's so much what's happening in society now.

00:59:21And that's what people are striving to.

00:59:23You see all the foolish things that people do so that they are influencers or millionaires or whatever.

00:59:31They're rappers.

00:59:32It's just littered through our society and it becomes the example that people strive for.