- 6 weeks ago
Wealth, poverty, inheritance, and child rearing in Proverbs 13 with the Common Sense Bible Study crew.
From Jay Carper at Common Sense Bible Study (https://CommonSenseBibleStudy.com) and American Torah (https://www.AmericanTorah.com).
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From Jay Carper at Common Sense Bible Study (https://CommonSenseBibleStudy.com) and American Torah (https://www.AmericanTorah.com).
This content is free, but I accept contributions via Paypal at https://jaycarper.com/paypal.
Send me a friend request on The Torah Network: https://jaycarper.com/ttn
Follow me on X: https://jaycarper.com/twitter
Follow me on Facebook: https://jaycarper.com/fbat
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LearningTranscript
00:00so welcome back talking about proverbs 13 and hopefully you read the chapter before tonight
00:09and considered these four questions like which one of these proverbs really speaks to you
00:15resonates with you for whatever reason your history says something really significant to you
00:20what puzzles you like what does this mean or why is this here or why is it phrased this way
00:27what surprises you like you weren't expecting that wow that's in the bible or i didn't realize
00:33it meant that and then what offends you and the bible frequently says things that offends us
00:42personally because either it's we have a pet peeve about something just our sinful nature whatever it
00:50is so let's read the chapter and then we can talk about it proverbs 13 a wise son hears his father's
01:01instruction but a scoffer does not listen to rebuke from the fruit of his mouth a man eats what is good
01:06but the desire of the treacherous is for violence whoever guards his mouth preserves his life he
01:12who opens wide his lips come to ruin the soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing while the soul
01:18of the diligent is richly supplied the righteous hates falsehood but the wicked brings shame and
01:24disgrace righteousness guards him whose way is blameless but sin overthrows the wicked one pretends
01:31to be rich yet has nothing another pretends to be poor yet has great wealth the ransom of a man's
01:37life is his wealth but a poor man hears no threat the light of the righteous rejoices but the lamp
01:43of the wicked will be put out by insolence comes nothing but strife but with those who take advice
01:49is wisdom wealth gained hastily will dwindle but whoever gathers little by little will increase it
01:55hope deferred makes the heart sick but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life
01:59whoever despises the word brings destruction on himself but whoever reveres the commandment will be
02:06rewarded the teaching of the wise is a fountain of life that one may turn away from the snares of death
02:12good sense wins favor but the way of the treacherous is their ruin every prudent man acts with knowledge
02:18but a fool flaunts his folly a wicked messenger falls into trouble but a faithful envoy brings healing
02:25poverty and disgrace come to him who ignores instruction but whoever heeds reproof is honored
02:30a desire fulfilled is sweet to the soul but to turn away from evil is an abomination to fools
02:37whoever walks with the wise becomes wise but the companion of fools will suffer harm
02:42disaster pursues sinners but the righteous are rewarded with good
02:46a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the
02:52righteous the fallow ground of the poor would yield much food but it is swept away through injustice
02:58whoever spares the rod hates his son but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him
03:03the righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite that the belly of the wicked suffers want
03:08it seems that this chapter has several different themes as you progress through the chapter
03:14like the first few verses are about speaking hearing and then sending back into the world
03:22that as we interact with the world if we are taking in positive messages you know finding wisdom
03:28and incorporating that into our lives internalizing it and then we put it back out into the world
03:34this becomes a positive feedback loop we take it in we put it back out and it comes back to us again with
03:40less effort you don't have to go hunt for it as much that doesn't mean life gets easier or it gets easier
03:46to learn the wisdom because as you gain skill in anything even with wisdom and life experience
03:52the hurdles that you have to overcome tend to get harder because you are stronger so god puts things
03:58in front of you that will continue to let you grow i think verses 6 through 12 generally talk about
04:07security through righteousness and wealth and the insecurity that comes through wickedness and poverty
04:14and then verses 13 to 21 are primarily talking about good and bad company and how the people around you
04:21can either help you become a better person or make you a worse person and then the last few verses 22
04:29through 25 are primarily about your family and community and how they interact how you can make
04:36your family better and then your family impacts the community around you some of the way that these
04:43proverbs are worded may tend to obscure that but if you look at the at the proverbs that are around
04:50like the context don't look at just one proverb but the two or three that are around it they often play
04:56off of each other and there's a lot of repetition in this chapter for example verses 6 14 and 15 and 21
05:04are all kind of saying the same message versus 12 19 and 25 all give a very similar message
05:13but they word it in slightly different ways and if you consider them in light of the verses that are
05:17immediately around them they tend to emphasize you know a different aspect of the same idea
05:25okay so four questions what speaks to you what puzzles you what surprises you and what offends you
05:32does anybody have any thoughts on any of these questions as they relate to one of these proverbs
05:37i'm always curious as to what offends people jenny says verse 22 speaks to her good man leaves an
05:45inheritance to his children's children and the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous
05:49what about that speaks to you specifically jenny to me that's just like it touches us where we're at
05:57i think in our life right now so it's very like very much on our minds of not just working for
06:05ourselves but for looking forward to providing something for our children and our grandchildren
06:12which we have and it's something that we thought about before we had children and grandchildren
06:19but i think that's a blessing that the lord provides for us in that i know people who
06:26just don't have that in their mind for whatever reason i guess it puts an additional purpose to
06:33the diligence and even just the blessings that we have it's not just for ourselves but it's for
06:38something bigger than ourselves i think that as a society today we've lost a lot of that vision
06:45you see the people in their rvs with the bumper sticker like i'm spending your inheritance kids you
06:50know yeah and i do think it takes planning and wisdom and sacrifice to be able to get to that point
06:58where you're able to maybe provide that i think that's good and you know there are different kinds
07:04of inheritances that you can leave your children and the financial one is primarily what's being
07:09addressed here but there's more than that too you know speaking of the the rv with spending your
07:15inheritance sticker it reminded me of verse seven one pretends to be rich it has nothing and another
07:21pretends to be poor yet has great wealth and you know the person with the rv is displaying his wealth
07:26especially when he puts a bumper sticker that's saying this is my kid's inheritance but clearly
07:31there's something else missing unless it's just a joke to have a twisted sense of humor and they're
07:36not really spending their kid's inheritance but if they are they're spending it in more than one way
07:42spending it financially and spiritually too because they're not putting into their children
07:48and they're telling their children that i don't really care about your future
07:51let alone your kid's future yeah that's good i think verses 12 and 19 i think really spoke to me
08:02but there's i think that just like so many of these proverbs there are multiple levels to these
08:11things you know it says hope deferred makes the heart sick but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life
08:16and then go down to verse 19 and it essentially says the same thing but kind of in reverse a desire
08:22fulfilled is sweet to the soul but to turn away from evil is an abomination to fools and it's really
08:28the last half of verse 20 that i think is the more important key just like there are different kinds of
08:34inheritance and physical well there are different kinds of desires and you think of this in light of
08:42james four james four three you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly to spend it on
08:49your passions if a person's desires are aligned with god's desires then they will get what they
08:55desire their hopes will not be deferred because their hopes come in a time in which they are intended
09:01to come but if they're always wanting things that are opposed to god they're always wanting
09:07i don't know whatever it is that they're asking for to satisfy their own passions rather than
09:13god's will then they're always going to be thwarted there's another verse in here
09:18it talks about how the wicked are never satisfied oh here it is the last one 25 the righteous has
09:26enough to satisfy his appetite that the belly of the wicked suffers want and this is really saying
09:31the same thing because the desire of the righteous is the desire of god and whatever god's will is is
09:39going to happen of course none of us have that perfect level of righteousness and the verse also
09:47on the surface is talking about physical things that we want i've had a long series of minor relatively
09:54minor health issues and i know that other people have their issues too and healing is one of those
10:00things that i'm always praying for studying learning about and i'm never satisfied with what i learn
10:09and what i get out of it and i assume that that must mean because i am not learning the thing that god
10:16has for me to learn through whatever the trial is of the day but i wish god would put up a big billboard
10:25on the highway saying here's what you're supposed to get out of this so then i could just take a shortcut to
10:30the end but it just doesn't work that way what was the first verse 12 hope deferred makes the heart
10:35sick that's a frustrating thing so i suppose in a way that verse offends me a little bit too
10:41okay somebody else got something anybody puzzled by any particular verse yeah that's what i was going
10:49to say so this wealth obtained from nothing dwindles but one who gathers by labor increases it
10:55obviously i know somebody who gathers by labor increases it but wealth obtained from nothing
11:01like if you just get rich out of thin air like win the lottery they didn't have a lottery back then so
11:06i'm like it's just inheritance or somehow you come into money the esv says hastily okay what the
11:16hebrew is wealth gotten by vanity from out of emptiness so nothing really is the literal translation
11:27talking about things that are empty and in vain but i think the english standard version the wealth
11:34gained hastily i think that probably is accurate to the intended meaning you know wealth gained by not
11:40much effort whereas you know wealth that is gained little by little over time yeah if you gain something
11:50today and then you consolidate what you've gained and then you move on and gain something else and
11:54consolidate that in this same principle applies to almost everything in life where you can gain or
12:00lose something one of the obvious examples is nazi germany in world war ii you know when they started
12:07their campaigns you know they took pieces took a part of poland they took part of czechoslovakia
12:14and then they kept it for a while and then they took part of something else and kept that for a while
12:20and if they had done that for 100 years they might have conquered all of europe eventually but they got to
12:28a point where it wasn't enough and they weren't just like this chapter says the wicked are never satisfied
12:34so they got greedy they moved too quickly the classic napoleon mistake of invading russia
12:41in the winter tried to bite off more than they could chew and obviously they lost
12:47and the same thing happens in business in you know investing in relationships politics you know you watch
13:00the political strategy of democrats over the last 150 years and it has been fighting for tiny little
13:07gains incremental just one little gain at a time and now we find ourself in a circumstance where
13:15our entire culture has been turned upside down and nobody noticed until it was too late people noticed but
13:22it wasn't enough whereas you know conservatives are always going for the big win let's outlaw all
13:28abortion across the board that would be a great thing it's just very unlikely to happen and when
13:35conservatives started copying the strategies of the democrats contenting themselves with small wins
13:43whereas before they were happy with small losses being happy with small gains will over time gain
13:51you a bigger victory and more lasting victory i don't think that there's much hope for that in this
13:57country right now but maybe for whatever comes after this country we'll see it always gets into
14:03politics with me how does that happen i was about to say why do you always go there anybody surprised by
14:08anything so verse 23 it's kind of interesting that the fallow ground of the poor would yield much
14:17food fallow ground typically is a cultivated field that they basically you don't plant so it's not planted
14:29it's not planted and it's yielding much food so that's kind of interesting but then it swept away
14:38through an injustice i don't know as a farmer i'm thinking taxation but you know maybe even like that
14:46fallow ground i know it's a time for like for for for them during the sabbath rest to let that
14:54cultivated field rest for a period they were only allowed to harvest but through wild during that
15:02sabbath rest i'm referring to that you kind of tapered off that i'm not sure if you're still talking
15:08there's some abundance but yet it swept away through injustice no it's okay maybe yeah looking
15:16at the at the hebrew word behind injustice it's actually mishpat so it is talking about more of a
15:23legal term it's not talking about through unrighteousness or the waste caused by the farmer
15:28himself but through legal misdeeds bad verdicts one way that that could apply is in predatory business
15:37practices monopolistic sort of things or when the big box store moves into town and undercuts
15:43everybody's prices until all the local smaller business go out and then they raise their prices
15:48that sort of behavior i don't know what really happens whether whether they actually do that or
15:54not i don't know it's also i think regulation it gets in the way of people taking advantage of their
16:00resources if people have their farms or or they've got mines or you know whatever on their property
16:07and our government puts up so many barriers to taking advantage of that you know like like you're
16:14saying brad through taxes or through licenses and fees and regulations and environmental protections
16:20and to an extent most of those things are necessary in one way or another but they become so burdensome
16:29that farming in agriculture only becomes profitable at large scales you know somebody like bill gates can
16:37buy up a million acres and make that profitable because gigantic monoculture farms and giant machines
16:45that may cost a million dollars that a small local farmer will never be able to afford and you know the
16:52same person who does that also then goes and lobbies the government to make more laws to protect their
16:56business and harm smaller farmers i think that's probably one of the biggest barriers to small
17:04farmers in our country i know you certainly know more about that than i do brad i'm only watching
17:09from the outside okay who wants to go next for those who can't see the chat jenny says i think it also has
17:17an aspect of taking away the dignity of the poor well certainly by making them seem useless
17:22when they can't take care of themselves and use their own resources and it's kind of like everybody
17:29has a role to play right everybody's got everybody's got work that they can do kind of thing you know if
17:36they're able right if they're able-bodied and so yeah it's taking away that opportunity from them
17:42it's a good point yeah i do have one here that i thought that offended me and it's actually
17:48closely related to that and that's verse four the soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing while
17:54the soul of the diligent is richly supplied obviously that's very closely related to
17:59some of the other verses that i mentioned earlier but one of the things that bothers me about this
18:06is that this doesn't have anything to do with righteousness and wickedness
18:10no of course a sluggard will tend to be an unrighteous person and the diligent may tend to be a
18:17righteous person but we can also look at extremely wealthy people and it's obvious that they are not
18:24righteous people but because they have been very diligent in their business and they have made plans
18:30and made goals and stuck to it one of those cliches that people talk about is never give up your dreams
18:36when you have a dream go after it no matter what don't let anybody get in your way
18:42and you know for most people that kind of is just a cliche but for people like bill gates and steve
18:49jobs and any of the super wealthy people who came up from essentially nothing that's how they live their
18:57lives they are extremely focused and disciplined and those characteristics will tend to produce wealth
19:08they will tend to produce success in whatever it is you're doing now maybe it's not something that
19:12produces wealth but for these people it was and so this proverb at some level it offends me because
19:19it seems to me that it should be the righteous who are gaining all that material wealth but
19:25unfortunately that's just not what god has promised he has promised rewards but not necessarily wealth
19:31and those rewards don't even necessarily come in this lifetime yeah i also think about like
19:38where it says you know the soul of the lazy one craves and gets nothing but soul of the diligent is
19:43made prosperous you know i think there's a lot of people who work really hard and so like reading
19:49that as somebody you know who might work really hard and think well i'm not really getting anything
19:56right i'm working really hard but i'm not getting anything i think about this particular verse and
20:03think about how people might respond to that you also have to think about the way that the world we
20:08live in is that the financial systems have evolved and it's not that you didn't have rich and poor
20:15when this was even written it's just that we have completely different ways and opportunities
20:22of getting rich and there's kind of like secrets around how to really prosper in the ways that
20:31maybe like bill gates and some of these other people have yeah they worked hard but there's some
20:35interesting things about our financial systems how the really rich get rich versus
20:41what it's kind of like all of our institutions it's like they all tell you one thing about how to do it
20:50but that's not really the way that the rich people play just like you know the health care system will
20:56tell you this is how you get healthy by like letting us do all your thinking and take care of you
21:01but that's not really the way to get healthy right same thing with like going to sunday church
21:06do these things and you'll find god maybe maybe not so i think that we have to take into consideration
21:14the context in which we live now and think a little bit deeper about why doesn't it really look like
21:20that for everybody and it's i don't think it's just that i think the principle is true that that's not
21:26the way god works is that he just rewards us with material things or finances but that it's also because
21:33the systems of the world are really the scales are imbalanced and there's different things that
21:41we've believed and operated by brad commented inside connections are a big part of that too
21:50and definitely in business inside connections are a big deal and in politics as well i know that people
21:59have this impression that if you are honest and you work hard you put in all the hours
22:06that you can get office you can win elections through that but that's not really true i mean
22:12that'll help you but if you really want to win elections you have to know and be connected to the right
22:17people otherwise it doesn't really matter what you do all right who's next i keep telling everybody i
22:26don't want to do all the talking but then i do you asked which births offends you i'm gonna go back
22:30to that i worked all my life driving a truck digging ditches whatever i had to do and then in 1990
22:38i was hauling concrete pipe out of rome georgia and the guy who's running the i call them track
22:44hose excavator whatever you want to call him he swings a bucket around i'm putting the hooks in the pipe
22:49and he barely bumped me but it was enough to knock me off the top and i did the whole superhero landing
22:56you know landed on my feet and but it crushed everything in my lower spine and i didn't know
23:04it you know i mean i thought i was fine until i woke up the next morning i couldn't get out of the bed
23:08and wound up going through surgery and all this stuff
23:12but you know like when i read stuff like this i wonder you wonder in the back of your mind
23:20which i know you know the lord's not talking about disabilities or whatever you know people get this
23:28idea when you get on disability you're rich but believe me i was making more in a week back when i
23:34was driving a truck than i get in a month now but you just wonder in the back of your mind how people
23:40view a sluggard not necessarily that this verse is saying that but you wonder how people view things
23:49like this morning just to give you all an example i had a lady she's homeless and mental mentally ill
23:56and she needed a battery for a car well you know i didn't have enough cash to run to walmart and get her
24:03one so i put this post on it took me 20 minutes to figure out how i wanted to word it so i wouldn't
24:10be sounding like a bum if that makes any sense i don't know oh yeah i know what you mean
24:15i don't know you want to help people but at the same time like i say this is the only verse in this
24:22chapter that except for the others that apply you wonder in the back of your mind because every time
24:29you hear the word sluggard or something like it well i'm disabled and i can't you know i'll be the
24:34first one to get it when the zombies come you know because i can't run you know the other person
24:39it's not prophetic i'm sure is the i'll say it in the king james version because that's all i heard
24:45growing up spare the rod spoil the child that's that's the other one that jumps out at me but that's
24:51the end of my rant though yeah you know i kind of feel the same thing you know when you read certain
24:57things and you wonder if people are picturing you when they read that word i know that i have worked
25:03hard in some ways to get where i am but i've done short stints as a manual labor i've worked a little
25:11bit in construction a little bit in landscaping a little bit for a rancher and some electrical work
25:16but mostly i have spent my entire adult life sitting at a desk typing and i often wonder do people who
25:25actually work with their bodies and hands think that i don't what do they think of me in this kind
25:31of respect and i've had people actually tell me that rancher and the electrician that i work for
25:36never hesitated to tell me what he thought of me one of his favorite things to say was you city folk
25:41don't know nothing and you know that kind of became a big joke between me and paula but it's sort of
25:48an imposter syndrome kind of thing do i really belong here in this company and you know we have
25:54acquaintances who are very wealthy and they have tried to bring us into their social circles at
25:59times and i am very uncomfortable and that's totally my own fault i don't know whether i should be
26:05uncomfortable or not i mean i know that they're very different kinds of people than we are but
26:09they're still just people and you know they're trying to be friendly and i'm just i just always feel
26:14very awkward around them and that's probably just a hang up of my own well you know and i can't
26:20remember if it's psych 101 or the next one which i guess would be psych 102 but there's a term that
26:28they use the funny thing about is they apply it to a teenage girl but it's called imaginary audience
26:34you know this young girl she goes to school she goes in the bathroom looks in the mirror and there's
26:40a starting of a pimple on her forehead so naturally she wants to go home immediately pretends to be sick
26:46to get out of school and when her parents ask her you know she's like look this pimple and nobody else
26:52can see it you know only her but she imagined that everybody in her class her peers or whatever
26:58could actually see it and we're making fun of her you know and i wonder sometimes if i'm not that
27:04teenage girl yeah i don't know we all are at times but it's it's funny that they have all those
27:11terms for different self-esteem issues or whatever okay so what so i have a question yeah go ahead so
27:21in seven it says there's one who pretends to be rich but has nothing and another pretends to be poor
27:27but has great wealth i'm having trouble thinking that somebody wants to pretend to be poor i mean people
27:32not trying to show their wealth you know i guess that could be pretending to be poor
27:38are pretending not to be wealthy is maybe the same thing that just sounded funny to me the way it's
27:46worded pretending to be poor but having great wealth yeah it looks like a more literal translation is
27:54that makes himself poor kind of like makes himself out to be poor which really means the same thing i think
27:58this is a very good commentary on our modern culture i think like people who drive the nice cars but it's
28:07about to get repoed kind of thing just it's always about like trying to show like they're rich but
28:13they don't have anything they've got the new lexus but they live in a shack yeah but there's a lot of
28:20ways that this is not just about financial stuff oh yeah brad just commented fake social media personas
28:28fake social media make it yep yep or fake it and keep faking it yeah yeah ostentation is a real
28:38problem and you can usually not always but you can usually tell at least with people who are pretending
28:44to be wealthy you can usually tell the ones who are pretending because it's ostentatious and poor taste
28:51although really you know the whole idea of the nouveau rich people who are who have just come into money
28:56and don't really know how to handle it they often look like poor people who are pretending to be rich
29:01and pretty soon that means that they might be poor people pretending to be rich again because they
29:07don't know how to handle their their money i hope i wouldn't be one of those people but since god has
29:14not has not seen fit to make me wealthy i'm guessing that maybe i am and he knows better than i do but
29:19see one that puzzled me at least at first verse nine the light of the righteous rejoices but the
29:29lamp of the wicked will be put out well the lamp of the wicked put out i mean that seems pretty clear
29:33but the light of the righteous rejoices i thought that was a strange thing to say
29:39but you know looking at the hebrew word behind rejoices it can also mean to brighten up and the
29:50alternate meanings for that word i mean rejoices is a valid translation and it seems to me that this
29:56might just be a poetic way of saying that it brightens you know like we talk about the flame
30:02like the dancing light of a candle flame or something it's not because it's dancing it's just because it
30:07kind of looks that way and it's kind of poetic so this gives a kind of a picturesque spin on this
30:14idea the light of the righteous rejoices it's a happy little light the words here light and lamp
30:20it chooses a different word for the righteous than for the wicked the word for light is or which
30:27literally means light like the light of the sun and the light of the world but the word for lamp
30:33is near and it literally means a small handheld lamp like an oil lamp in this the implication i would
30:44think is that the light of the righteous is much brighter than the light of the wicked the lamp of
30:51the wicked is ready to be put out and it's dimmer to begin with it also reminded me of a couple of
30:58different verses you know for the light of the righteous revelation 21 23 both verses in
31:04revelation the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it for the glory of god gives it light
31:10and its lamp is the lamb has both light and lamp there but the idea is that it's very bright and
31:16happy and the other one for the lamp of the wicked revelation to remember where you from where you have
31:23fallen repent and do the works you did at first if not i will come to you and remove your lamp stand
31:27from its place unless you repent so this is an external thing like the light of the righteous
31:32is something that comes from inside and of course ultimately that comes from god but there's a joy
31:38in just being in tune with god's will but the lamp of the wicked is an artificial external thing
31:46that can be snuffed out whenever god wants to and it will be anyways that that was my verse for
31:53surprise because i was just kind of surprised at that little turn of phrase okay who's up next
31:58anybody else surprised by anything i don't know if i was go ahead i don't know if i was surprised but
32:05like verse two makes me happy so i don't wouldn't call it surprise but just the idea of like
32:12the fruit of a person's mouth and from the fruit of a person's mouth he enjoys good
32:17but the desire of the treacherous is violence i think the wording must be like backwards it's like
32:24he's eating from the fruit of his mouth i think is what is the notes are indicating
32:30well eating what is good i mean the word for good it doesn't mean like he's eating well
32:36it means that he's eating good things like this is essentially like goodness
32:41yeah because of what he says good things come back to him yeah so that's what it seems like he's
32:48saying good putting good stuff out into the world and then he's getting good stuff back which i really
32:53like the desire of the treacherous is violence i'm assuming this just means this destruction the word
32:58for violence is hamas and it can mean violence or damage or injustice all things that affect you
33:05negatively but yeah it doesn't necessarily mean physical violence in this word here desire other
33:13translations tree of life sometimes a little weird the way it translates proverbs but says he craves
33:20violence but it's literally talking about his soul the soul of the treacherous violence so it's like
33:27deep down in his soul this is what he craves it seems to be in both cases it seems to be talking about
33:35what is being internalized you know the person who is you know from the fruit of the mouth man eat
33:41what did the esv say a man eats what is good so the man who is speaking good things you're thinking of
33:48what jesus said about how it's not what goes into the man that defiles him but what comes out of him
33:54that is defiling and i think this is really talking about the same thing that whatever is coming out of
34:01you even not necessarily even speech but everything you know your actions the way that you treat people
34:06these things if they are good if you're treating other people good then there is goodness already
34:13inside of you and it creates a positive feedback loop between you and the rest of the world but if
34:18what is inside of you is violence then that's what's going to come out of you and it's going to come
34:24back to you and whether it's good or evil whatever it is that's coming out of you because of what's
34:29already in you is putting down deeper roots and becoming more of you i think that's what it's
34:37talking about when it says the soul of the treacherous yeah because yeah that's what mine
34:42says in the notes and so that makes a lot more sense i had some thoughts on verse eight also
34:48the ransom of a man's life is his wealth but a poor man hears no threat the obvious meaning is that
34:55if you've got material wealth then you are a target for people who want to take advantage of that
35:01you know people don't kidnap poor people they don't sue poor people because why would you you're not
35:09going to get anything back so being having wealth makes you a target for people who are out for unjust gain
35:16now the poor can be taken advantage of but you have to do it in a scale you have to take advantage of
35:22lots of poor people in order to get rich whereas you can take a rich person just once and then you
35:29have their wealth but looking a little bit deeper at this the hebrew word for ransom is kofir which is
35:38it's spelled exactly the same as the word hebrew word kofir for atonement the only difference is a
35:44little vowel point which didn't exist in the original text vowel points were invented like 1500 years after
35:50proverbs was written so originally there was no difference in the text between a ransom and an
35:56atonement and this comes out in the torah like if a person makes a vow of his life like he dedicates
36:03his life to god or he vows his life to the temple or something like that he could redeem himself with
36:10an amount of silver and that amount was set by torah it didn't go up or down for depending on how much
36:17money you had i think there might have been exceptions for very poor people but for the most
36:22part it depended on your age and sex like for a 30 year old man the ransom was higher than for
36:29a 12 year old girl because he could work more financially his labor was worth more over his
36:37lifespan i don't remember the exact amounts but torah lays it out in the rich and the poor paid exactly
36:43the same but this says that i mean this seems to be implying that there's a different ransom for a
36:49rich man than a poor man so even though it has that connection it isn't necessarily talking about that
36:56but it also made me think of mark 8 37 what can a man give in return for his soul
37:05and then also jesus statements about how much more difficult it is for a rich man to get into the kingdom
37:11of heaven and it's not because being rich is a sin or anything like that but because he has so much
37:16more stuff so many more concerns in the world you know a poor person may have more worries of a
37:23different kind but they are worries about how am i going to eat how am i going to put a roof over my
37:28head where they're not complicated worries for the most part a rich person has lots of he doesn't have
37:35to worry about what he's going to eat or where he's going to live but he has all these complicated
37:39worries about legal issues and payroll and is somebody cheating me and he's got to deal with
37:45accountants and lawyers and all this stuff and it just his life becomes more complicated and it's
37:51easy to get distracted and lose focus on the things that are really important and it doesn't really
37:56matter how much money the man has he can't buy his way into the kingdom of heaven he's got to be able
38:02to get past all that stuff all right so the four questions anybody else have anything they want to
38:09add in here i mean i've got notes on almost every verse so we could talk for a couple more hours if
38:13you want to but nobody really wants that paula doesn't believe me that i could yeah i don't really
38:19believe that you could i think that's a dare well we just have to find the right button usually right
38:25so there's i mean there's so much but like we've hit a lot of the a lot of the verses
38:35should we talk about the rod i did want to talk about that but it's interesting in verse five it
38:43says a righteous person sorry hates a false statement so this is like you know false statement
38:49you know a lie whatever you want to call it yeah it literally says false words
38:53but a wicked person acts disgusting and shamefully so it's like one is speaking
38:59and the other one is like is exhibiting a behavior so i thought that was interesting
39:04how like yeah like or one is about speech i should say and then one is about like how they're acting
39:14so i thought that was interesting like that it's kind of a comparison i just thought that was interesting
39:18yeah that's a good uh a good point i didn't get that out of there that it's actually comparing
39:24what the righteous person hates to what the wicked person does the righteous hates to even speak
39:31something false whereas the wicked not only doesn't mind speaking it he doesn't mind doing it
39:36and don't we see that in our culture right now there was another proverb in here
39:42trying to find it over 16 every prudent man acts with knowledge but a fool flaunts his folly
39:51there are multiple levels to this and multiple ways that you can take it but a prudent man acts out of
39:58a place of knowledge he finds out what's going to happen if he does this doesn't make a decision
40:04without finding out some information but business there's an adage that they say decide quickly
40:11change your mind slowly or something like that it is important to act quickly when you know what to
40:16do but acting quickly when you don't have any idea when you're ignorant of all of the factors
40:21that can be very dangerous one thing in our modern culture where this comes out
40:26is the things that people talk young children into doing into cutting off body parts because of how
40:34they feel today they don't understand what they're doing they don't understand the consequences
40:40whereas the parents and the doctors and the teachers who talk them into this those people
40:46do know the consequences and that is so evil on such a deep insidious level and they talk children
40:56into making permanent life destroying changes to their bodies on transient emotions on you know i'm
41:06feeling weird today oh you must be a boy even though you look like a girl let's cut some parts
41:11off and they're going to destroy somebody's life and although i mean it says that a fool flaunts his
41:18folly but really it's talking about fools rushing in fools rush in where angels fear to tread that's
41:25because the angels know better they know that these are dangerous things that are going to have
41:29life-altering consequences that you can never come back from but we encourage children to make these
41:37choices all the time but not all the time it's not it's not like everybody in in the country is doing
41:42this they're just getting a lot of press and so it's on the rise because of the you know the social
41:49pressure there's a psychological term for that i think i don't remember what it is but yeah
41:53another political rant and the rod as long as we're on treating children and bad decisions
42:05you know dr spock somebody should have taken a better rod to him
42:09but um you know i've i don't really i've never read any of dr spock's books and i don't really see
42:18any point in it but he convinced an entire generation of people to be really bad parents
42:23every child is different every child needs a different kind of discipline you don't have to spank
42:28or strike any kind of corporal punishment for every child and you don't have to do it all the time
42:35with any child but there is a time for corporal punishment at some point in the life of almost every
42:44child and you can't reason with a three or four year old they just don't have the life experience
42:51or the intellectual capacity to be able to understand cause and effect and how what they're
42:56doing today is going to have this cascade of effects in the rest of their life they don't have the
43:01ability to create the good habits based on knowing what's right and wrong so sometimes you have to
43:08do something to them that helps them learn on their level that creates the habit for them
43:13you know you don't touch a hot stove you can let the child learn for himself which could have
43:19permanent life-altering consequences or you could smack his hand when he's reaching for the stove
43:25and teach him that touching a hot stove hurts without it doing permanent damage but if you take his
43:32hand away like pull his hand away and then you talk to him about it i'm sure that there is some
43:37child out there where that act is actually a useful strategy i'm not sure that i've ever met him
43:43at a certain age of course that works you got a lot of years between being born in that age where
43:48you can reason with the child to explain that a hot stove is hot it's going to hurt so sometimes you
43:54have to give a little bit of pain to avoid a much bigger pain and that's really what this is saying
43:59whoever spares the rod hates his son the word for hate in hebrew in the scriptures it can mean you
44:08a really intense emotional reaction like an intense intense emotional dislike of something
44:14but that's not the primary meaning the primary meaning is doing bad unpleasant things to somebody
44:19so like when god says jacob i loved but esau i hated it doesn't mean that god had a visceral
44:26dislike for esau it meant that he did unpleasant things to esau and he did pleasant things for jacob
44:33and of course not all the time esau got his rewards and jacob got his punishments too it was just on the
44:38whole that is true and so when it says that sparing the rod hates whoever spares the rod hates his son
44:45you could also read this as whoever spares the rod is hurting his son so you think that you're hurting
44:52your son or your child not just son but you think you're hurting your child by spanking or using a
44:59switch or you know whatever you use but by not disciplining him you are setting him up for a
45:05much greater hurt later i also think just by being a homeschooling parent and having to spend a lot of
45:13time with my children you want to enjoy their company and by by not instilling discipline you don't get to
45:22enjoy them as much because they run you know they have the opportunity to run all over and i've seen
45:29that in parents who don't take the time to discipline a young child when they're little and they can't
45:37stand their kids you know and so i think having i think our society now has a lot of ways to not have
45:45to spend a lot of time with their children and you know there's a natural desire as a parent when
45:52you're spending day in and day out with them to like get this under control because you're spending
45:56day in and day out with them i think a lot of times unfortunately when parents don't have when
46:03society is set it up where they're not spending a lot of time with their kids there's kind of a
46:10it's almost like a deferral of that responsibility and then you've got a teenager that's out of control
46:16and that is really difficult to get this thing under control but you can control a child when
46:22they're younger and get that relationship of authority established however that needs to happen
46:30whether it's you know one spanking or two or whatever it takes for that particular child i don't
46:35know that's kind of one of the things i see in our society the way we set it up is a lot of kids spend
46:41a majority of their time away from their parents and trying to establish that authority with them
46:48is much more of a challenge especially if who they're spending that other time with is actively
46:53undermining that authority exactly well you have to realize like it's not just he who withholds the
47:00rod or discipline whatever form that takes from the child it's like what you're describing jenny is
47:08that person is going to have weird emotional and psychological challenges to endure if they
47:17don't like their children we're not meant to not like our children i think that there are moments
47:23that we can all agree that we might not have appreciated our children when we've been in certain
47:30circumstances but i think ultimately this idea of of not liking your children how painful is that
47:37the role of responsibility i think it's a way of like i don't want to deal with this for whatever
47:44reason and so you just keep deferring dealing with that you know because you don't want to deal with
47:51it at the moment it's a meme this morning it said discipline and raise your own children right you can
47:56spoil your grandkids if you spoil your own children you're going to have to discipline and raise your
48:01grandchildren yeah yeah i'm sure there's plenty of people experiencing that right now
48:07that's there's a lot of that happening right now i think and if you think about like even this in
48:13the context of us as god's children there are ways in which he will put us in situations that discipline
48:22us when he needs to because he loves us and he is a good father you know we can trust that he is a good
48:30father so the fact that he does that with us that he disciplines us he doesn't spank us like physically
48:38i've never gotten smacked by the hand of god physically but i certainly have been smacked by the hand of god
48:46in my life it came through you know circumstances and situations that he obviously allowed in my life
48:56so we can also take confidence in this truth here in his proverb and apply that to god himself
49:03because you know we know that is part of his behavior toward those he loves
49:07and we want that even though we don't want it i i totally agree with that i want it but i don't want
49:14it like i want it but please don't make it hurt so much like when i was young and my dad came out
49:21with the belt but when i was a little girl we were staying up too late and making noise and my sister
49:26was complaining you know it was like i could be okay if it wasn't going to sting but it's like you
49:32never knew which hit was going to really sting the most so yeah but in my own life i didn't have to get
49:41a lot of physical discipline because i did get it early and i got it appropriately
49:49in my life i know my parents weren't perfect but i know that when they applied that they applied it
49:56appropriately because it wasn't like abuse it wasn't like somebody's angry and just beating their
50:04children so i think that's an important aspect of where our culture has gotten off about some of this
50:10stuff is that we do have people who abuse the privilege of parenting and don't know how to
50:17parent and how to use these tools whatever you want to call it but yep do you ever wonder i mean i don't
50:27know how old you guys are but like i said earlier you know i grew up hearing this constantly the first
50:34half not the second half you know who whoever spares the rod spoils the child in the king james
50:41i think it just says spare the rod spoil the child i'm not really 100 sure but when i was growing up you
50:47know you still got paddlings in school and corporal punishment was normal back then and i just wonder
50:57how often this verse being taken out of context to back up someone's abusiveness
51:06got us to the point that we are now where it's the other side of the extreme you know i think that's
51:14probably a big contributor to how we got here a lot of people experiencing abuse by people who used
51:22maybe this verse to justify their actions right throughout history we see people doing that kind
51:30of stuff they use the scriptures to manipulate and support their behaviors and their own interpretations
51:37of what it's supposed to be like and that's not a new thing even that's what the serpent in the garden
51:42did okay question in my little notes here it says like the second half but he who loves him is
51:52diligent to discipline him and it says or who loves him disciplines him early is that is that like
51:58i don't know the hebrew so is that just another way of saying
52:05like is early in there or is that just like another way of it looks like it's in there in at least in
52:14young's literal translation it has the hastened and whoso is loving him hath hastened him chastisement
52:22meaning not delay so it's like yeah probably that's what it means king james says be times but that
52:29doesn't really mean anything to me it's kind of like what we were speaking to earlier was like if
52:35you wait until they're older because you're just fed up you've kind of wasted your opportunity there
52:42but i think like you were saying robbie about just the first half but the second half saying
52:47but he who loves him so it's out of love he's diligent to discipline him which means he's not
52:55waiting or putting it off he's paying very close attention to what it takes to keep that child
53:03in discipline not by hitting but by keeping the child under your authority i would assume
53:11is what that kind of means i think too the early or not delaying can also be applied to the idea of
53:18like in a timely manner when something happened in the moment of not delaying so that if a child is not
53:26of an age to be reasoned with you have to do something that they understand you can't delay it
53:32so you mean like psychologically and you're you need to get the shopping done
53:37difficult at the very beginning and you've only gotten one grocery item and yet you have to deal
53:45with this it sounds like you have experience with this jenny yeah you know like every every sermon on
53:52this this verse points out that don't spank when you're angry that kind of thing and that's true
53:58but it's also true that you shouldn't wait too long because it needs to be connected i mean just
54:03like with a puppy if you wait too long to discipline a puppy it has no idea why you're disciplining it
54:10and so it doesn't work i realize children aren't puppies children the same principle applies even
54:16though you can wait you might be able to wait a couple of days but yeah brad in the comment says
54:22that when necessary and appropriate and in due measure and i think the septuagint i don't read
54:29the greek either but the brenton translation of the septuagint words that carefully chastens him
54:34at the end and that could indicate that the translators of the septuagint the jewish sages
54:40in two or three hundred bc that's how they understood it that it was a measured and appropriate response
54:46or it was a considered response and not just a reaction yeah and i think that's what in the
54:53conversation and like as we kind of think about all the different aspects of this it's like
54:56there's a lot to consider in choosing how you're going to discipline your children it's not just
55:03something you just willy-nilly do you have to be very thoughtful about how you're going to do that
55:13and that comes before the children need it first of all i think but then also in the moment being
55:21able to because you've also considered a lot of things and you're kind of paying attention and
55:25watching and trying to figure this out it's like you still have to be able to think and process
55:30these things in that moment like you have to know what the due measure is for something that a child does
55:37at that moment it goes back to what jenny was saying is like putting it off and the opportunity
55:43we have in our modern culture to just not be with our kids and not have to be the ones
55:48with them and all the things that contribute to that it's like people don't have the bandwidth or
55:55time in a lot of ways or they don't believe that they have the bandwidth and the time
55:59to consider these things and really be judicious about how they discipline their children part of
56:08that is just obviously the enemy stealing and killing and destroying the way that he loves to
56:14do keeping people occupied blind whatever it is to all the things god really wants for us to be doing
56:21it is taking this time to consider our children and what we're doing and raising our children to be
56:27so thoughtful in how we raise our children because it's like everything like you're contributing to
56:36the creation of an adult human being that will have an impact on their community and the world around
56:43them like that's huge responsibility there's just this disconnect now that we have with
56:51what people say they know what they're really doing when it comes to like we're having children
56:57we're raising the future as a culture i don't think we have a connection with that anymore well i think
57:03too one of the things that comes to mind is that this isn't out of the context of our relationship with
57:08the lord and as a parent even in the beginning as a spouse you're learning self-control and patience and
57:15all of these characters that are being built up in you as a spouse before the children this is an
57:22outworking of our faith is the fruit of the spirit which is love peace patience kindness gentleness and
57:28we are to have this with our children and i think that this is an opportunity of growth where we need to
57:37have that diligence in prayerfully and hopefully building character through practicing self-control
57:46when it comes to discipline with our children with the setup that god provides for us in the context of
57:52a husband and wife relationship where you've got that relationship to keep things in perspective and
57:59have each other to make sure you're in check and doing things in a way that is good and right before god
58:06and before your spouse in terms of raising those kids you know it's not out of context in terms of
58:11just discipline by itself but it's in the context of a husband and wife and your relationship with the
58:16lord and how you're being diligent in that aspect of your life as well because you can't do it on your own
58:24you know these kids raising them hey yeah i'm a stepmom right cameron was 15 when
58:30jay and i got married i just remember this one time crying in the kitchen after maybe a couple years
58:42of marriage and saying nobody can possibly know what they're doing raising children and was just like
58:50anybody who says that they must be lying you know and just really realizing like how much work and how much effort
58:58and how much support is needed in that process and it's not that i didn't know that before i mean
59:03it's one of the reasons i didn't have kids is because i took it so seriously it's one of those
59:07things where it's like until you're really in it you don't know exactly how difficult it can be
59:12so it was not i don't want to say bad but yes difficult and challenging it can be
59:16so it's one of those things that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that i think that
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