- 11 months ago
Евродепутаты спорят о расширении ЕС на премьере программы «The Ring»
В первом выпуске «The Ring» мы обсуждаем политически острый вопрос расширения Европейского Союза, ставший геополитической целью Европейской комиссии под руководством Урсулы фон дер Ляйен.
ЧИТАТЬ ДАЛЕЕ : http://ru.euronews.com/2025/11/07/evrodeputaty-sporyat-o-rasshirenii-es-na-premere-programmy-the-ring
Подписывайтесь: Euronews можно смотреть на Dailymotion на 12 языках
В первом выпуске «The Ring» мы обсуждаем политически острый вопрос расширения Европейского Союза, ставший геополитической целью Европейской комиссии под руководством Урсулы фон дер Ляйен.
ЧИТАТЬ ДАЛЕЕ : http://ru.euronews.com/2025/11/07/evrodeputaty-sporyat-o-rasshirenii-es-na-premere-programmy-the-ring
Подписывайтесь: Euronews можно смотреть на Dailymotion на 12 языках
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00:00Субтитры создавал DimaTorzok
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02:31Субтитры создавал DimaTorzok
02:34Mark Botenga, Belgian MEP
02:37A fierce defender of workers' rights and public services, he's one of the European Parliament's strongest critics of austerity and corporate power.
02:47He voted against the EU's economic aid package for the Western Balkans, warning it comes loaded with neoliberal conditions that, in his words, would deepen the crisis instead of solving it.
03:01We have, of course, a lot to discuss, so let's kick off with yourself, David McAllister.
03:09Croatia was the last country to join back in 2013. Who will be the next to join and by when?
03:14Well, there are 10 candidate countries, and I'm very sure one of the 10 will be. In the moment, Montenegro is the frontrunner, then comes Albania.
03:24But apart from these 10, there are also some developments in the high north. There are new debates in Iceland, in Norway, and even in Greenland, who perhaps might also want to join the European Union.
03:34Indeed, as we're hearing EU enlargement, the momentum is indeed there. Is it for you? Are you in favour of EU enlargement, Mark Botenga?
03:40Well, we don't, I mean, I'm not in against or in favour of EU enlargement. I think we need to see why we do it and what we want to obtain, what's going to be the consequences.
03:48Because there have been consequences for working class people of previous enlargements, and we've seen that today as well.
03:54You know, there have been protests of farmers against liberalisation of trade, for example, with Ukraine. There have been victims.
04:00We've seen social dumping practices that have made people very sceptical of these enlargements.
04:05So what I would say is we need to get our house in order, socially, before we risk having the same effects again.
04:12Can we afford EU enlargement?
04:14The history of the European integration has always been the history of enlargement.
04:17We started with six, we became nine, 12, 15, 25, 27, even 28 members.
04:23There are 48, 49 countries in Europe, and 10 out of these want to become members of the European Union,
04:28and we should support these countries in their aspirations.
04:32But, of course, in the end, all the necessary criteria need to be met, politically, financially, economically.
04:38That's clear.
04:39But I am happy to see that further countries want to join our family of nations because they share our values
04:46and they believe that they are stronger and better off together with us.
04:50And we saw the so-called report cards, or progress reports, coming out today from the European Commission this week in Brussels.
04:55What are your views on them?
04:58Well, obviously, we've received these hundreds of pages just recently,
05:02so we're not going to pretend, any one of us, I think, to have read or studied them in depth.
05:06However, one thing I looked at, and which I'm disappointed by, I mean, is that, of course,
05:11we know this is no longer just a merit-based process.
05:14I mean, there's a geopolitical dimension to it now.
05:16No one's going to deny that.
05:18But what I have seen is that, over the last years, I've seen a lot of protests from trade unions,
05:25International Trade Union Confederation, European Trade Union Confederation,
05:28saying there's a clear backsliding on working-class democracy in Ukraine.
05:33There have been new laws.
05:35There's been even the Secretary General of the Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine
05:39that's been put under house arrest, right?
05:41And the Commission doesn't seem to take that seriously.
05:44And I think, you know, you already have a martial law,
05:47and you're attacking civil society in this way.
05:50That needs to be on the agenda.
05:51And what I'm seeing is that we're abandoning, basically, the criteria just because of geopolitics.
05:56Is that a point that you could address, David McAllister?
05:58Many feel that the EU is not working for them, those that are in the club already.
06:03There are 10 candidate countries in the moment.
06:05But the big difference between Ukraine and the other nine is,
06:09Ukraine is going through a fully-fledged war, a Russian war of aggression.
06:13And, of course, you need to always consider under which enormous pressure and challenges Ukraine lies.
06:20Yes, Ukraine is far, is still far away from meeting all the necessary EU criteria.
06:26Ukraine is on the way.
06:28It's a marathon.
06:29And, of course, also the Commission has been very outspoken
06:32in also criticising what is not going well in Ukraine.
06:35But my impression is that the Ukraine government usually responds in a positive way
06:40to the criticism coming from the Commission and the European Parliament.
06:44That's why we need to also work on social standards and workers' rights in Ukraine,
06:48just like in any other candidate country.
06:50But, please, we need to bear in mind this country is under attack
06:54by a vicious regime in the Russian Federation.
06:57If you are under attack, is your priority to crack down on trade unionists?
07:01Is your priority then to say, we need to liberalise the energy sector, the banking sector?
07:06No.
07:06I mean, your priority should be to bring back peace, to get back your sovereignty and so on.
07:11So, this argument of, you know, war in order to justify social repression, I think, is just out of scope.
07:18Mark, I'm very sorry.
07:19I didn't say that.
07:20I said that, of course, Ukraine has to also meet all the necessary criteria.
07:24And there are a lot of things where Ukraine still has to do a lot of homework.
07:28But, in general, we need to just consider under which enormous challenge they are fighting a war against Russia,
07:34on the one hand, and, on the other hand, preparing to join the European Union.
07:39That is very impressive, and that deserves respect.
07:41But, once again, I am not arguing, I'm not defending this.
07:45In the end, they will have to meet all the criteria, including the social criteria you have mentioned.
07:49So, we agree being disappointed by the Commission.
07:52What about internal reforms, David McAllister?
07:54What kind of internal reforms does the EU need to do?
07:57Its own homework, perhaps.
07:59Well, the one thing is that further countries will, at one day, probably join our European Union.
08:05It depends, of course, when.
08:06On the other hand, we need to prepare in the meantime.
08:09We are operating with a set of rules and institutions which stem from a time where we are 9, 12, 15 members.
08:15We have to reform.
08:17We have to get ready for enlargement ourselves.
08:19That means we need to strengthen the European Parliament.
08:23We have to, in the Council, introduce further qualified majority voting.
08:28Unanimity is something which comes from the time where we were 6 or 9 or 12 member states.
08:33It doesn't work with 27.
08:34It will not work with 28, 29 or 30.
08:37And also, we need to discuss, can this system continue that every single member state has a known commissioner?
08:44Already, the commission in the moment is rather large.
08:47I'm sure that's something you'd agree with, too, Marc Buttenga.
08:50Well, the commission is rather large.
08:51This is one thing.
08:52But what I would be saying is if we want, first of all, to avoid a social, you know, massive negative social impact on our societies,
09:00there's a number of rules, European rules, that we need to revise in a very ambitious way.
09:06And I'm thinking about subcontracting.
09:08I'm thinking about posted workers.
09:10I'm thinking about pluriactivity.
09:11And I'm thinking about leather box companies.
09:14Because if we do not tackle this socially, you know, we're going to have a massive backlash.
09:18And we've seen these protests.
09:20We've seen protests of farmers in Poland and Italy.
09:22We've seen protests of truckers from Poland and the Slovak Republic.
09:25But what about the backlash from countries in the Western Balkans who've been waiting for so long to enter the EU?
09:29Absolutely.
09:30You know, and I really understand the frustration of the Western Balkans and of these countries.
09:34Because, indeed, they've been waiting for a long time, other countries perhaps even longer.
09:39And they feel disrespected.
09:41They feel disrespected when they see, you know, that certain other countries get a pass.
09:46And now they're hearing about this potential probation period.
09:49What are your thoughts on this?
09:51Well, until now, we have argued you are either in or out.
09:55You're a fully fledged member of the European Union or not.
09:57I think that we have to get away from this black and white debate.
10:01And that means that the solution is the gradual integration of candidate countries into the European Union.
10:07So we begin with the gradual integration in the single market and in other important policy fields.
10:13And then the next step is the EU membership.
10:15And after EU membership, the next step is then to join the core zone of the European Union.
10:19That means the Euro and the Schengen cooperation area.
10:22I think that is the way.
10:23And also we need to perhaps think out of the box how can we address the concerns of some of our member states that additional members might, at the beginning, be hampering the further integration process.
10:36But, I mean, we've managed that until now.
10:38And I'm very sure with candidate countries 28, 29 and 30 joining, we will be able to do so.
10:45You agree with that or do you think it could be completely dysfunctional?
10:48Well, it could just be completely dysfunctional.
10:50That's why I'm saying, you know, we need the social guarantees very clearly.
10:53We need upwards convergence, not a downward spiral of dumping on the one hand.
10:57And secondly, if we do not involve the people, if we think this is all going to be decided in Brussels, in Strasbourg, there will be a backlash democratically as well because people will not take it.
11:08People will be like, hey, my working life, my salary is being affected.
11:12And so that is something we need to deal with.
11:14I don't always necessarily agree with Mark, but on this point he's right.
11:17Yes, indeed, we have to convince our citizens, we have to convince the people, but the social standards which are so important to you and they're just as important to me,
11:25I think one way to guarantee these social standards in the candidate countries is that we go through a thorough enlargement process because in the end all the criteria need to be met.
11:36And that's why enlargement is a huge opportunity, not only for the people, but also for the businesses and the employers and the employees in these countries.
11:45And it's interesting, on this very first edition of The Ring, you're starting to agree with each other because politicians, it's all about building compromises, of course.
11:51A German Christian Democrat and a Belgian Socialist, I mean, we're wide apart usually.
11:56And now it is time, in fact, to show our viewers a little taste of what it's like inside the hemicycle.
12:02As some of you may have seen, MEPs get the chance to pose questions to each other, sometimes very provocative.
12:09David McAllister, please start with your question for Mark Batenga.
12:12Mark, if I understood you correctly, you're rather enlargement, sceptical, and you want to not accelerate the process.
12:18You believe that we need to take our time.
12:21On the other hand, grey zones will exist.
12:24Grey zones will be created.
12:26And China and the Russian federations are just there to fill these grey zones.
12:30Why do you do that?
12:32Well, it's an interesting question.
12:34I would send you back the question.
12:36You know, Russia and European Parliament, we've criticized that very long.
12:40That Russia thinks in terms of spheres of influence.
12:42You know, and they try to influence other countries to do what they want, to copy their model or impose their model.
12:49The way I hear you speak sometimes about enlargement is very similar.
12:54When I'm saying, should the European Union then enter in this logic of spheres of influence?
12:59I don't think we should.
13:00You know, and I don't think we should be interfering in other countries.
13:03They have their democratic processes, their local evolutions, and we should respect this.
13:07And this might indeed end up in enlargement.
13:10You know, I'm not principally against.
13:11But what we should not be doing is copying a model of countries that we criticize.
13:17Mark Batanga, you now have the opportunity to pose a question to David McAllister.
13:20Well, let me come back to what we were discussing before.
13:23I mean, you said that indeed social convergence upward is important.
13:27Then I'm going to ask you, why is EPP systematically opposing, you know, ambitious social proposals that could basically end or limit social dumping?
13:39I'm thinking, for example, of banning subcontracting below one or two levels.
13:44I'm thinking of, for example, forcing letterbox companies to have real activity in the country they're officially based.
13:51Think of Slovenia.
13:52Think of a number of other countries.
13:53Why doesn't EPP take that social agenda seriously aside when we're discussing very abstractly about enlargement?
14:00Okay, thank you for your question.
14:01Not directly related to the enlargement countries, I understand.
14:04But it's always close to your heart, of course.
14:06Well, look, first of all, the EPP has always been the leading party when it comes to further developing the social market economy.
14:13We are not supporters of free capitalism.
14:17We support the social market economy, which Ludwig Erhard, for instance, in Germany created.
14:23And this is our model for Europe.
14:25And this includes, of course, social standards, workers' rights, labour rights.
14:30We have always been at the forefront of this.
14:32And I strongly believe, by the way, we also need a strong social pillar within the European Union because we need the citizens on board.
14:38And the European integration project should not be an elitist project of the well-off, but of all.
14:44And this, of course, includes the hard-working people we have in Europe.
14:48That's why we can have a more detailed discussion on these matters.
14:51But I have to add one point.
14:54Mark, I do not agree what you said, that EU enlargement is interfering in third countries.
15:00These countries have voluntarily taken the decision to join our family because they believe in democracy, the rule of law, and human rights.
15:09And I will always support countries and governments and parliaments who want to go exactly this way.
15:14Answer that one.
15:14Let me just reply to that.
15:16That is a very naive vision.
15:17And you know you don't share that of how these processes go.
15:21You know the European Union has been very active in sponsoring NGOs and media to influence public debate in these countries.
15:28We've done this in Ukraine, we've done it in Georgia, we've done it in many countries.
15:32And you can say this is legitimate, and we could argue about this, saying it is legitimate, it's not legitimate.
15:36But the other side, you know, the Russians that want their sphere of influence are doing very similar things.
15:40What I'm saying is that we need to listen to social movements over there and not prioritize our own corporate interests.
15:47Because what we're seeing today, honestly, if you see the Finnish minister going to Georgia to protest with the protesters,
15:54you can say, you know, if a Russian would do that, we would consider it unacceptable interference, and rightly so.
16:00If we're doing it, we're saying, well, you know, it's a support for democracy.
16:04So this thin line, and there we need to be very clear that there might be double standards in the way we look at things.
16:10Well, Mark, I think here we have some clear differences between the two of us.
16:13And when it comes to interfering in candidate countries, I wouldn't at first think of EU member states.
16:22These countries are being flooded by malign Russian influence.
16:26Fake news, propaganda, they are trying to destabilize democracy.
16:30Mark, I think the socialists, your party, you should deal more with this horrific Russian foreign malign influence we have in Europe.
16:38Just to make clear, because otherwise we're going to get some problems with colleagues, and not from the socialist group.
16:43Well, how do I call you then?
16:44It's the SND, it's the left group, but okay, I mean, just to, in order for our socialist colleagues not to get a harder time.
16:48Okay, well, what are you then?
16:50We're the left group.
16:51We're just the lefty.
16:52Okay, well, when, Mark the leftist.
16:54I'm glad you're getting to know each other here on the ring.
16:58Let's perhaps bring in another voice on this very important discussion of EU enlargement that has made a political comeback.
17:04That is the voice of the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Selensky, who spoke at the Euronews Enlargement Summit here in Brussels.
17:13And he said that Donald Trump is supporting Ukraine in becoming a member of the European Union.
17:19That Trump understands that this is the will of the Ukrainian people.
17:23But my question is, what do you think of this statement?
17:25And do we really need the approval of the White House for this kind of thing?
17:28The brave women and men in Ukraine are not only defending their territorial sovereignty and integrity every day.
17:35They are also defending our European values.
17:38They are defending the European peace and security architecture.
17:42And if there's one people in Europe who has shown how they committed they are to the European integration progress,
17:49then it's the brave women and men from Ukraine.
17:52They deserve all our support.
17:54Mark Buttenka.
17:54Well, I think Donald Trump has launched one of the most aggressive attacks on Ukraine's sovereignty we have seen over the last years.
18:02I mean, you've seen, obviously, the horrible war of Russia, you know, occupying, what is it, one-fifth of the country.
18:10But what has Donald Trump done?
18:13He's come saying, you know, you want peace.
18:15I can guarantee that.
18:16But in exchange, I want your natural resources.
18:18Now, that is a direct attack on the economic sovereignty of the Ukrainian people.
18:22So, I don't think he should be giving lessons on what sovereignty means.
18:26And what about Moldova?
18:27We also heard from Maya Sandu, the president of Moldova, saying that she also one day wants to be a member of the European Union.
18:33Can the EU afford a poor country like Moldova?
18:35David McAllister.
18:36Moldova, who's ever been there, knows great people, great country.
18:40And they are on their way.
18:42I urge the council to open the accession negotiations with Moldova now in autumn.
18:48They are waiting for this desperately.
18:52And the Moldovans have shown their European commitment, despite all the aggressive, malign Russian influence.
19:00The people in Moldova stood strong and voted three times in favor of the pro-European orientation at the referendum,
19:07at the presidential elections, and just most recently at the parliamentary elections.
19:11Mark Batanga?
19:12Why not?
19:12Let's talk.
19:13I mean, I'm in favor of talks.
19:14Moldova, as you know, is not an easy situation with the Transnistrian situation.
19:18So, that will need to be solved.
19:20Let's not pretend that doesn't exist.
19:22But we always need to keep talking.
19:23What I'm saying is let's keep talking with respect of local democracy.
19:27You know, let's keep talking and let's not accelerate things beyond that in the hope to, you know,
19:32eat them up quicker than the others, because that's not what Europe should be.
19:35Well, now we've heard the view of the MEPs.
19:38I'm curious also to get the view of the European public to hear how they feel about EU enlargement.
19:43We've been digging into the latest Euro barometer.
19:52And according to the latest data, 56% of Europeans are in favor of EU enlargement.
19:5839% show mistrust.
20:01The pros of those polled were that the EU could benefit from larger markets.
20:06There'd be more work and more skilled labor.
20:07And the cons, many said, the cost for the taxpayers, the risk of corruption, organized crime and terrorism,
20:15and also uncontrolled migration.
20:18One of the very interesting points is as well that most people don't believe they will benefit themselves from enlargement.
20:26The idea is nice.
20:27And the idea, this is also why in the EU bubble, it's so you speak about enlargement because it's nice, like Europe expanding.
20:31But many people are afraid, and no, they will not benefit.
20:34If we do not have the strong internal social measures, and apparently EPP would be open to that, so that's the news of the day,
20:42then we cannot do this enlargement.
20:45I take very seriously that 39% are against.
20:48And we have to work on this.
20:49We have to improve our communication.
20:51We have to explain to our citizens that further enlargement, if we do it properly,
20:56I am not advocating enlargement for enlargement.
20:59I am advocating an enlargement process which is merit-based, where each country is individually judged,
21:08and that in the end, all the necessary criteria are met.
21:11And by the way, enlargement is a regatta, not a convoy.
21:16But in the end, if these countries, whether economies join, it is beneficial for both sides,
21:23because it means new markets, new business opportunities.
21:26And the enlargement until now has shown, especially the big enlargement in 2004, that it was beneficial for everyone in Europe.
21:34Was the big bank enlargement successful, in your view, Mark Potenga?
21:37Many people in, you know, older member states, France, Germany as well, Belgium, saw this as an opening for social dumping,
21:44which was reality for many people.
21:46And many people in the more eastern, the more newer member states, left their countries.
21:50But it did create structural, you know, aggravate perhaps structural problems within the European, let's say, the subcontinent of Europe.
21:58And if we're going to do that again with now one, at least very big member states, you know, demographically, economically, as Ukraine,
22:05we might have that in a much, much stronger version.
22:09I think the solution to the problem of social dumping is what we have seen in other cases, transitional periods.
22:15That we go and go from one extreme immediately to the other, but we have these transitional agreements,
22:21these transitional periods is for the free movement of labour, as we had with some eastern European countries after 2004.
22:27What about some of the cons there that we listed?
22:29We need to better communicate.
22:31It is our duty, not only in the candidate countries, but also in the 27 member states,
22:37to convince our citizens that this is beneficial.
22:41And I would see there are 48, 49 countries in Europe.
22:4627 are in the European Union.
22:49But the European project has always been open to all countries who lie geographically in Europe,
22:55who share our values and are ready to go through a very challenging negotiation process.
23:01That's where we are.
23:02And the EU does need a success story.
23:04Okay, but I'm not particularly concerned with the PR needs of the European Union.
23:09That is a different thing.
23:10But otherwise it could break up.
23:11Yeah, but we need to watch out with the communication aspect of it, because I've heard this on many things.
23:16Also development cooperation, because it always has the same undertone of like,
23:19we're doing great things, we're just not explaining them well enough to the people.
23:23I think people have real concerns, and we need to take that seriously and adapt policies,
23:29not just adapt, you know, propaganda, sorry, PR strategies.
23:33So I think this is really important.
23:35And secondly, let's, on the other hand, not stigmatize potential member states.
23:40Mark, if we had applied your attitude, the enlargement in 2004 wouldn't have been possible.
23:45And I'm happy to live in a European...
23:46Why not?
23:46I would have been happy, I'm happy to live in a European Union where Poland, the Baltic countries,
23:51the Czech Republic, and others are also fully-fledged members.
23:55The Europe is more than old Western Europe.
23:57Europe is Western, Central, and Eastern Europe.
23:59And I think that if these countries, these candidate countries are on their way to fulfill all the necessary criteria,
24:06and I have been the rapporteur for one of the candidate countries for five years,
24:09I know what hard work it is.
24:12We should give them all the support.
24:14And you are playing with fears, because all these arguments you have mentioned today,
24:18I remember, were exactly the same ones I heard before 2004,
24:22when the 10 Eastern and 7 European countries joined,
24:25and also when Romania and Bulgaria joined in 2007, and Croatia in 2013.
24:29And we didn't deal with them.
24:31Sorry, that's the point.
24:33We didn't deal with them.
24:34And this created fears, this created also a backlash in certain of these countries,
24:39because we didn't take them seriously.
24:41And that is the point.
24:42I will give you a good example.
24:43Croatia joined in 2013, and 12 years later,
24:46Croatia is not only a fully-fledged member of the European Union,
24:49but also a fully-fledged member of the Schengen area, and introduced the European Union.
24:52And how many Croatians are forced to leave their country to get a decent work in Germany?
24:57Croatians now feel forced.
24:59You know that German courses are big business in Croatia,
25:01because there's not enough investment in the Croatian productive economy.
25:05And so this is something that the Croatians struggle with.
25:07And I want to hear, I want to listen to the Bulgarian trade unions,
25:10to the Romanian trade unions, to the Polish trade unions,
25:13that are saying we are not getting out of this what we as workers deserve.
25:16And here we're getting a real glimpse of what the debates inside the European hemicycle are like.
25:21That was the view of Mark Batenga, the view of David McAllister.
25:24I'd like to hear your view.
25:26Please reach out to us here, the ring at euronews.com.
25:29Before we come to a close, we have a bit of a rapid buzzer round for our two contenders.
25:36I will pose a very short question, and I require a very short answer.
25:40Just yes or no.
25:42Mark Batenga, is the future of the European Union bright, yes or no?
25:45If we fundamentally change policies, yes.
25:51Yes or no?
25:52Yes.
25:53Are opt-outs a good idea for joining member states?
25:56Yes.
25:57We've already seen this, can be an option.
26:00Should Turkey join the EU one day, Mark Batenga?
26:02I think for the moment, neither the EU nor Turkey is asking that.
26:05Yes or no?
26:06Under the given circumstances, no.
26:08Should countries with anti-LGBTQI plus laws be blocked from joining the EU, Mark Batenga?
26:14I think that's one of the fundamental rights that should be a condition indeed.
26:17Mark Batenga, really struggling there with the yes or no answers?
26:19No, I'm sorry, yes.
26:21Dave McAllister, in your view.
26:23And should geopolitical considerations like countering Russian or Chinese influence justify faster EU
26:29enlargement?
26:30Yes.
26:32Very dangerous, and I'm going to continue struggling with yes or no.
26:36Has the EU...
26:37What, Russian and Chinese influence, you're struggling?
26:39No, I'm not struggling with Russia or Chinese influence.
26:41What I'm saying is, should we...
26:45That's always a disadvantage, speaking to a Eurobubble audience, of course.
26:50But what I'm saying is that the best way to deal with that is not necessarily by an unfair enlargement process.
26:57Final question, have you agreed with anything you've heard from your component today?
27:01Look, I know Mark Batenga, he's a member of our committee,
27:04and I would say he's a staunch fighter for social rights,
27:07and that's where I would give him credit.
27:10And what about you, Mark Batenga?
27:11No, absolutely.
27:12I think we share certain ideas of that Europe should become more democratic,
27:17and clearly also more social.
27:18So I'm going to take the EPP up on this.
27:20I mean, this is going to be a starting point for a new cooperation.
27:23And that point brings this very special first edition of The Ring to an End,
27:27and a round of applause.
27:27Thank you.
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