- 7 hours ago
Больше денег на армию — зачем? Евродепутаты спорят о военных расходах Европы в программе The Ring
Рост оборонных расходов в Европе — стратегическая инвестиция или случайная уступка Дональду Трампу? Об этом спорят в The Ring евродепутаты Марк Ботенга и Лукас Мандл.
ЧИТАТЬ ДАЛЕЕ : http://ru.euronews.com/2026/05/22/bolshe-deneg-na-armiyu-zachem-evrodeputaty-sporyat-o-voennyh-rashodah-evropy-v-programme-t
Подписывайтесь: Euronews можно смотреть на Dailymotion на 12 языках
Рост оборонных расходов в Европе — стратегическая инвестиция или случайная уступка Дональду Трампу? Об этом спорят в The Ring евродепутаты Марк Ботенга и Лукас Мандл.
ЧИТАТЬ ДАЛЕЕ : http://ru.euronews.com/2026/05/22/bolshe-deneg-na-armiyu-zachem-evrodeputaty-sporyat-o-voennyh-rashodah-evropy-v-programme-t
Подписывайтесь: Euronews можно смотреть на Dailymotion на 12 языках
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:01Субтитры делал DimaTorzok
00:57Луис Альбертос
01:20Луис Альбертос
01:22Луис Альбертос
01:26Луис Альбертос
01:37Луис Альбертос
01:51Луис Альбертос
01:53Луис Альбертос
02:20Луис Альбертос
02:23Луис Альбертос
02:25Луис Альбертос
02:27Луис Альбертос
02:29Луис Альбертос
02:31Луис Альбертос
02:32Луис Альбертос
02:34Луис Альбертос
02:38Луис Альбертос
02:39Луис Альбертос
02:40Луис Альбертос
02:43Луис Альбертос
02:43Луис Альбертос
02:46Луис Альбертос
02:49Луис Альбертос
02:50Луис Альбертос
02:50Луис Альбертос
02:51Луис Альбертос
02:52Луис Альбертос
02:53Луис Альбертос
02:54Луис Альбертос
02:56Луис Альбертос
03:05They're just sponsoring, basically, not just their profits, but even their dividends, their share buybacks.
03:09So this is one question.
03:10But secondly, what are our priorities?
03:12We see that people are buying, you know, armored vehicles to be used in the west of Africa.
03:18We're seeing the F-35 fighter jets being bought by member states.
03:23And I'm like, what is this for?
03:24This is not for our defense.
03:26This is, if we, with all of the money and all the material we have, you know, which is much
03:30more than what Russia has,
03:31you know, we have many times more tanks, many times more fighter jets, many times more battleships than Russia has.
03:37We see Russia struggling.
03:38You know, they were unable to even organize the parade in Moscow.
03:42Why are we not able to defend ourselves with the money we're already spending?
03:45Yeah.
03:46Let me take that question right to Lukas Mandel.
03:49Defense strategy or not?
03:50Oh, it's like everybody needs an insurance.
03:52If you're driving a car or doing whatever, you need insurance.
03:56And spending money for defense is an insurance for our security in the first place.
04:01And secondly, it's also for the very cause of Europe's prosperity.
04:05Because the more we can innovate and produce on European soil, the better for jobs, for growth, and for Europe's
04:12economic future.
04:14On this point, connecting Europe stronger.
04:17I mean, it's not like Europe doesn't have armies, doesn't have had armies or defense spending before.
04:23Isn't the problem really inefficiency and fragmentation in Europe when we talk about military?
04:29Well, I remember the European Commission, the previous one, the one of Jean-Claude Juncker, you know,
04:33saying if we work together better at the European level, we can save up to 100 billion euros on defense
04:41spending.
04:42I'm like, that's marvelous.
04:43Let's do that, right?
04:45And now you see, no, we work together better, but we also need to spend hundreds of billions more
04:49while we're already outspending vast amount of countries in the world.
04:54Most countries in the world spend a lot less than European countries do.
04:57We need to really, really be aware of that.
05:00So there is no underfunding?
05:02Oh, there's absolutely no underfunding.
05:03There might be a very bad use of some of the funds.
05:06This is something else.
05:06We've seen it at European level as well.
05:08You know, until very recently, drones were not a priority, not a top priority of the European defense spending.
05:14Then suddenly it became everything.
05:16You know, drones were everything we needed, the Alpha, the Omega.
05:19And now we're again, yeah, maybe it's not drones that are the main priority.
05:23So this is what I was saying.
05:24There's no real strategy.
05:25But there is an idea of saying Europe, you know, should be a main player globally.
05:30This is not about defense.
05:31This is about Europe being able to project power in the rest of the world, you know, in Africa, in
05:37the Middle East.
05:38Not defense, attack.
05:39Do you agree?
05:41We have big underfunding.
05:43We have had it for many decades in Europe.
05:46We have to invest in drones.
05:47I really want to address these conspiracy theories that are there as if it would not be for our defense,
05:53but for a different cause.
05:54It's for our defense.
05:55Europe is the very entity on this planet that's planning military matters in the very field of defense, not in
06:03the field of attack.
06:04And drones are obviously what's really needed in today's warfare.
06:08And if we are well equipped in the field of drones, if we have innovation also in the drones field,
06:13and also production on European soil for jobs and prosperity,
06:17then we have a smaller probability that we will be attacked because we will be more secure if we are
06:23able to defend ourselves.
06:24And this is the whole philosophy of defense.
06:27So our security is at stake.
06:29And I think conspiracy theories are rather harming our European unity and our European defense capability.
06:36First of all, I don't think the massive increase is justified.
06:39Let's say this first.
06:40Secondly, I think it actually will weaken Europe on the long term as well,
06:44because contrary to what you're saying, it is not a good idea for our industry.
06:48You know, we have, you speak about jobs.
06:50Basically, the defense industry yields less jobs for money invested than other sectors do.
06:55You will not save the steel industry with militarization.
06:58You know, producing 1,000 tanks, it's about three days of production of a steel factory.
07:03So you can see that you're actually weakening.
07:05Also, there's a negative multiplier effect that might be applied to other industries.
07:10So you're weakening structurally the industrial base of Europe by saying we put more defense, but we will lose other
07:15sectors.
07:16Look at the automobile sector.
07:17And secondly, indeed, what is the threat that justifies, you know, this massive?
07:22Why, for example, if I hear the German chancellor saying, I want to have the biggest army in Europe.
07:28Why do you want the biggest army in Europe?
07:30Is that your threat assessment?
07:32That the problem is you don't have the biggest army in Europe?
07:34We need to be very clear.
07:36There are threats, you know, and one of the threats is the arms race.
07:39One of the threats is nuclear war.
07:40Let's be very clear.
07:41This is very clear.
07:42How do you deal with that?
07:44During the Cold War, we knew disarmament, transparency, limitations on arms control systems.
07:51All of these things we knew during the Cold War with the Soviet Union that was vastly more powerful and
07:57vastly more ideological than Putin or Putin's Russia will ever be.
08:01Okay.
08:02Do you hear this?
08:02In the Cold War, freedom won against dictatorship.
08:05And this was, of course, due to deterrence.
08:09And deterrence is what is needed.
08:11Deterrence will also save us.
08:12And deterrence is only possible if we can take care of ourselves.
08:15And the security sector and industries is not isolated from other sectors.
08:20We have to understand Europe.
08:21And I really care for Europe's prosperity, for jobs on our continent and for the future of the generations ahead.
08:28Europe became a continent of consumption.
08:30We have been consuming over decades innovation from America, production from China and other parts of Asia, also innovation from
08:39China in the meantime.
08:40So we need innovation on European soil.
08:42We also need production on European soil.
08:44When you talk about the automotive sector, there are not many sectors as much connected to the security sector as
08:49this one.
08:50So security and economy has to be taken serious.
08:55That's why I'm also saying let's put first things first.
08:58This must be the priority.
08:59But I guess the threat assessment is different in the Baltics and in Portugal, right?
09:06So I'm coming back to Putin here.
09:08Shall we take him seriously?
09:09Shall we fear him?
09:10Is this whole buildup a response to Russian assertiveness and aggression?
09:16I think we invoke the Russian aggression in Ukraine to justify programs that existed before.
09:22Let's not forget that, for example, the European Defense Fund was started before the current war in Ukraine.
09:27So there is, of course, you know, I mean, the Defense Fund was so important for for Europe to be
09:31started ahead of the Russian attack.
09:34But the quantity is so important.
09:36The connection is so important.
09:37When we see that, I mean, you should not underestimate our need.
09:40Let me get back.
09:41First of all, with these things, we're putting a lot of money, extra money, you know, by saying Russia is
09:47going.
09:47There's this very there's a contradiction in European mainstream discourse, which is saying at the same time that Russia is
09:53extremely weak, is losing in Ukraine.
09:55And we might be able to free Ukraine from Russian occupation militarily.
09:59And then you have these these these images of the Red Square in Moscow where there's no parade.
10:03And on the other hand, the fact that Putin would be able to conquer the whole of Europe, you know,
10:08these are two things that are obviously incompatible right now at the same moment.
10:12But we don't want to find out what we don't want to find out is right now.
10:16What, for example, a desperate Russia would do.
10:18Right.
10:19But could it be more desperate than it already is?
10:21Sorry.
10:22I mean, do you see any reliability or predictability in Putin's regime?
10:27There is already desperation.
10:30So we have to be able to defend ourselves.
10:32I agree with the commission's president, who has stated we have to keep our hand reached out to the other
10:38Russia.
10:38I'm absolutely aware of that, that after Putin's regime, we have to give Russia the chance to become a democratic
10:46rule of law.
10:47We need to have diplomacy right now.
10:48We need to do diplomacy right now.
10:50And this is the disaster, the disaster of this European Union.
10:53We have forgotten what diplomacy is.
10:56Talk to other people.
10:57And diplomacy doesn't mean going, having a drink with a friend.
11:01Diplomacy is talking to the opponent, to the adversary, to the enemy.
11:05This is to de-escalate and to limit conflict.
11:09And most countries in the world have tried this, and the European Union has refused.
11:12Now I see Angela Merkel, you know, who got the Order of Merits.
11:15I see Alexander Stubbs saying we need to do that.
11:17Right.
11:17A lot of names floating around.
11:19We'll come back to this later.
11:21But I want to stop you here, as we're just getting warmed up, as you can see.
11:29Now it's time for our viewers to get a real flavor of the European Parliament chamber,
11:33where members ask each other questions.
11:36And sometimes it can get heated.
11:38So let's get started.
11:40Lukas Madl, I'm going to ask you to ask the first question to Mark.
11:45Well, Mark Potenga, as a colleague in the European Parliament,
11:48how can we make sure that we establish more freedom for the Europeans to the inside
11:53and more strength to the outside?
11:55This is the overall issue of our time.
11:57I would say Europe needs more strength for its civilization, for its reliability,
12:01the diplomatic approach that you obviously do not see from the European side,
12:06while Europe is the strongest diplomatic power, given the geopolitical situation today.
12:11So how can we create more strength to the outside and how can we establish more freedom
12:15to the inside for our citizens?
12:16I think that's a very interesting question coming from the center-right,
12:19who's governing in many governments in Europe and who's basically limiting the right to protest,
12:25who's limiting the right to strike, who's limiting basically fundamental freedoms of Europeans.
12:31And so I would say, first thing, please tell the governments of your political group,
12:36of your political party to stop limiting the fundamental freedoms of Europeans.
12:41And secondly, towards the outside, I need, we need, I think, to rebuild European credibility.
12:48And how do we do that?
12:49We do that by stopping the double standards,
12:51by no longer saying international law is important for us in Ukraine,
12:56but in Palestine we don't care.
12:57International law is important when Russia or Putin violates it,
13:01but we don't care when Trump violates international law.
13:04Because if you have these double standards, never, ever will other countries take you seriously.
13:10And never, ever will you be a decent player on the international scale.
13:14Okay.
13:14On this, I think you want to follow up.
13:17I mean, there is so much to be said.
13:20I think it was now the fourth or fifth conspiracy theory from Mr. Potenga in today's talk about freedom being
13:26limited in Europe.
13:27There is no part on this planet, no continent, no country where freedom is so much established
13:32and so much defended and strong as it is in Europe.
13:36Obviously, also that we have this debate today, also that extremists have all democratic rights in parliaments in Europe,
13:43including the very European parliament.
13:46All of this is about freedom.
13:47And then mixing things up doesn't make it better.
13:50Of course, when international law is violated, Europe is the strongest voice speaking about that.
13:55Europe stood strong against Trump's attempt, for example, when it comes to Greenland,
14:00and we succeeded in that area.
14:02Europe stood strong when it was not clear whether the terrorists will go that way or the other way from
14:08Trump's side.
14:09He put us in a limbo again, but we didn't follow this pathway of a limbo.
14:13We didn't enter this political battlefield of Trump.
14:16We stood strong, and we managed to succeed more when it comes to the geopolitical tensions given than other parts
14:24of the world.
14:25But, of course, we need more strength to the outside, especially in that field you are doubting,
14:29in the field of our own security and being able to take care of it.
14:33Mark Maja, you want to react?
14:34And then your question to Lukas Mandel.
14:36Well, I think it's interesting because very often the EPP and central parties, when they don't have an answer,
14:41they say this is a conspiracy theory.
14:43What we see in many countries, like in Germany now, there's a debate even on saying we can't use the
14:47watermelon anymore
14:48as a political symbol because it would be anti-Semitic.
14:50This is what we are seeing.
14:52We're seeing this also with action against trade unions in different countries.
14:56So we see that there's a democratic backsliding, which human rights organizations are pointing out in Europe.
15:01It's not some kind of left conspiracy to say that.
15:04But you don't want to see it because it's your governments doing it.
15:07Secondly, what I indeed want to ask now, and I think that's a thing.
15:12You say that Europe stands up for international law, and you quote Greenland.
15:18But Europe didn't stand up for international law in Greenland.
15:22It stood up for its own territorial integrity.
15:25That is something very different.
15:27Because when we had to stand up for international law, the illegal war on Iran, you supported it yourself.
15:33When it is about denouncing the illegal occupation of Lebanon by Israel, you support it.
15:38When the International Court of Justice says that we should sanction Israel as third parties, we have responsibility, you refuse
15:45it.
15:45So basically, when the Venezuelan president, whatever we think of him, is kidnapped illegally, and the world globally condemns this,
15:53saying this is just absolutely not how we deal with, how would I say, with international relations, and this is
15:59a violation of the UN Charter, you support it.
16:01So this is the issue.
16:02These double standards.
16:04It's not Europe that has double standards.
16:05It is you, it is the governing coalition of Europe that has these double standards.
16:10Look, who is dealing with international law, who is in the lead of preserving it and observing it, is the
16:17United Nations.
16:18We had yesterday night in the European Parliament's plenary a debate on the United Nations' necessary reform.
16:24United Nations have to be reformed for obvious reasons.
16:27And if you are telling now that the war on the Iranian regime was wrong, I say, yeah, it was
16:35amateurishly done by the United States, while the decapitation of the Mueller regime's leaders worked very well.
16:44But the war obviously was wrong because it didn't work out well.
16:48The Mueller regime is still in place.
16:49I have been sanctioned myself by the Mueller regime since 2023, so I know what I'm talking about when I
16:54say women are suppressed in Iran.
16:57Iran is threatening the whole world, not only the region, and, of course, to threaten our only partner country in
17:04the region, the only democracy, the only rule of law-based state in the region, Israel, is part of the
17:10conspiracy theories of your political side.
17:12And this is a sign of freedom in Europe, that you can speak freely about that, even if it's a
17:18very much in minority being opinion.
17:22But you are allowed to say that, and there are no many parts on Earth where you can do that.
17:27And last point on Greenland, I mean, when international law is violated, it doesn't matter whether it's Europe's interest or
17:32ours' interest.
17:32We care for international law.
17:34We even want to save international law during these geopolitical times of tensions, and that means that we have to
17:41reform the United Nations.
17:42Okay, thank you for a great debate so far.
17:45We've heard your views.
17:47Now it's time to hear from a new voice.
17:54And for our quote of the week, I would like to bring in Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni.
17:59In a letter addressed to Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, she said this.
18:04We cannot justify to our citizens that the EU allows financial flexibility to be used for security and defense purposes
18:13in the strictest sense, but not to protect families, workers and enterprises from a new energy crisis that threatens to
18:21severely impact the real economy.
18:25Your take on this, Mark?
18:27Well, two things.
18:28First, she's walked back to her statement.
18:29Secondly, it's terribly hypocritical because the fact that we now have, again, these horrible austerity rules was approved by her
18:38government.
18:38So first, and this is fantastic, first the far right approves this, or the center right, whatever you want to
18:44call her, approves these rules, and then they say, ah, it's not fair.
18:47So this is, you know, pure populism.
18:50But what is true is that Europe today says there's no money for your hospitals, for your pensions, for your
18:56schools, but miraculously we find hundreds of billions for the defense multinationals.
19:02You know, this contradiction is real, and so, indeed, we do not need these austerity rules anymore, and once again,
19:08they've been imposed by the mainstream parties, including Georgia Maloney's.
19:12Okay, Lucas Mandel, your reaction?
19:14Yeah, this is part of the extremist populist approach.
19:16I think also the consumers, viewers of this program should see that there is no contradiction between producing something on
19:22European soil instead from buying it from outside and having hospitals and schools and streets, because the one thing is
19:31connected with the other.
19:32If we have strong prosperity, if we have growth, finally, in Europe again, we will also be able to afford
19:37the social welfare states.
19:38We have established generations before us have established in Europe, and we will have schools and roads.
19:43All right, we're going to continue the conversation, but now I'll have to take a break here on The Ring.
19:48We'll be back with more after this.
19:50Stay with us.
19:59Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show.
20:03I'm Stefan Gorbe, and I'm joined by Lucas Mandel from the European People's Party from Austria and Marc Botenga from
20:09the Left Group from Belgium.
20:11At this point, let's take a look at the transatlantic partnership regarding defense.
20:17Trump wants to weaken the NATO alliance and seems increasingly noncommittal to common defense.
20:23But the military business is showing a different picture.
20:26So here are some numbers from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.
20:31According to that institute, 64% of European NATO weapons imports come from the United States.
20:38And European arms imports rose by more than 150% between 2020 and 2024 compared to the previous period.
20:47U.S. arms exports to Europe increased by more than 200% in the same period.
20:52So Europe is now the world's largest arms important region.
20:59Lucas Mandel, hearing these numbers, your comments.
21:02I mean, we had a time of many good beginnings since the beginning of Putin-Russia's war, but spending is
21:08not everything.
21:08I've emphasized that before.
21:10It's about where to spend.
21:12It's about the connection between the armed forces of the member states and also the understanding of the various different
21:19threats.
21:19Now we see the situation that the United States are obviously willing to reduce their number of troops on European
21:27soil.
21:28I think that's not only a development due to the given current U.S. administration under Trump.
21:34It was generally something that had to be expected over decades.
21:38And a mature Europe will anyway be able to take care of itself.
21:42But I do not want to have confrontation with other parts of the world.
21:45I want cooperation, but on the basis of European strength.
21:47Okay. How can we be strategically independent by buying American weapons?
21:53Oh, we cannot. Let's be very clear.
21:54If you buy, for example, I mentioned the F-35 fighters just before.
21:58Making a little bit of a cartoon out of it, you could say that with one push of the button,
22:03Trump can deactivate them.
22:04So if it were to, I don't know, defend Greenland, they would be completely useless.
22:09We do need to think how you create this autonomy.
22:13This you can do in different ways.
22:14One of the ways I would suggest is to say we need to diversify partnerships.
22:18So this idea of we need to, we are locking ourselves up in this kind of submissive attitude towards Trump.
22:25We've seen it as well with the trade deal and the EU-US trade deal where we accept to give
22:31tariff-free access to the European market for many, many goods from the US.
22:35But ourselves, you know, we see that we impose...
22:38What do you mean by diversifying?
22:39Is it buying from Brazil or India?
22:40Yeah, for example.
22:41I mean, you have your own industry, obviously, you know.
22:44You produce what you want to produce.
22:45Of course, we have to produce ourselves.
22:47But secondly, no, no, but we produce ourselves.
22:50That's not, I mean, because you said before that we do not produce anymore.
22:54First of all, this deindustrialization, which is true and which is real, is not a gift from God.
23:01This is a consequence of policies that have been waged on this continent by your group.
23:07So let's not pretend this comes from nowhere.
23:09Workers throughout Europe have seen their jobs disappear in industry because of the policies, the market-driven policies your group
23:16has imposed on this continent.
23:18So yes, we need to...
23:19I agree with the point that Europe has its own responsibility here, but it clearly came from ideological left sources
23:24that we had.
23:25But you were the one governing it.
23:26This was a market approach.
23:28How can you say the left is responsible for it?
23:31But this makes no sense.
23:33We have better maturities in the European Parliament since the last election.
23:35I'm ready to have a debate of ideas.
23:37I'm ready to have a debate of ideas.
23:39But you cannot say that it has been the left pushing for liberalization, that it has been the left pushing
23:46for privatization, for the sellout of our industries.
23:50This is just not true.
23:51This is center-right policy.
23:53But this makes no sense.
23:55I mean, let's have an honest debate on ideas.
23:58And killing jobs.
23:59Let's have an honest debate on ideas.
24:01It's been the center-right, sometimes with social democrats in the coalition, that has sold off our industries and that
24:07has privatized, liberalized our markets.
24:10And this would create, I don't know what kind of Eldorado.
24:13The reality today is what?
24:16Deindustrialization and a lot of issues for European industry.
24:19We need more freedom.
24:20You have refused to invest sufficiently in public energy infrastructure.
24:25And today, our industries are being chased away by the fact that the energy prices are too high.
24:29And still today, you're sabotaging the cheapest energy that would be green energy, keeping us dependent on fossil fuels from
24:36I don't know what countries.
24:37All right.
24:38We'll come back to this.
24:39And now it's the time to move on to our fifth and final round.
24:46And we want to do something different now.
24:49I'm going to ask you a set of questions and you can only answer with a yes or no.
24:54Okay.
24:55Lukas Mander, I'll start with you.
24:56Should there be a common European army?
24:59On the long run, yes.
25:01No, not now.
25:02No.
25:03Okay.
25:04Can Europe realistically build credible military autonomy without duplicating NATO structures?
25:11It's a long debate.
25:11I just want to say, yes, if that's the question, yes, we can.
25:15I think we should work on a common security architecture in Europe.
25:19Okay.
25:20No, we can't.
25:21We have to do it within NATO.
25:23We have to reform NATO, such as UN also.
25:26And, of course, it will be within NATO because to have redundancies is the worst thing we can do with
25:32taxpayers' money and also with our security.
25:34Okay.
25:35Will NATO outlive Donald Trump?
25:38Absolutely.
25:39I hope not.
25:40You hope not?
25:41Yes.
25:42I mean, I think NATO today, you know, NATO is something that comes from the Cold War.
25:46It had a sense at the time, the Warsaw Pact against NATO.
25:50Today, we need a common European security architecture.
25:54NATO is something from the past and Donald Trump is the living illustration of this.
25:57And finally, was there anything over the last half hour that you think your opponent said that you can agree
26:08with?
26:08I can't say that.
26:11Only maybe that European economic trouble is also based on our own European responsibility from the past.
26:17But I wouldn't direct that to the very center of politics.
26:23It was the extremists who were stronger over decades.
26:25Now we have better maturities in the European Parliament.
26:27Now we lift burden from our businesses.
26:58So maybe we agree on that.
26:59It's not a matter of more money.
27:02It's a matter of more cooperation, you know.
27:04And this, I think, he said, but this kind of contradicts the position of saying we need more money for
27:08defense.
27:09But I agree on this part.
27:10We need more cooperation and more coordination.
27:13Wonderful.
27:14And that final answer brings us to the end of this edition of The Ring.
27:18Thanks again to Marc Buttenga and Lukas Mandl for a lively conversation here from the European Parliament.
27:23Thanks to our audience at home.
27:25If you like, you can continue the conversation by sending us your comments to theringaturonews.com.
27:32We'd love to have your feedback.
27:34That's it for today.
27:36I'm Stefan Grobe.
27:37Take care and see you soon.
27:39On Euronews.
Comments