- 2 days ago
John, Kevin, and Barbara expose the spiritual and political machinery behind the so-called “Communion Revival” led by Lou Engle, Dean Briggs, and Chris Berglund. They trace how Manifest Sons of God theology from William Branham and the Latter Rain revival evolved into today’s New Apostolic Reformation—with its Dominion Now teachings, manipulation of Gen Z, and exploitation of women. Together, they unpack how a movement once claiming to bring unity and revival instead breeds hierarchy, nationalism, and theological corruption. The discussion moves from Nixon-era politics and charismatic propaganda to modern platforms like Awaken the Dawn, revealing a pattern of humanizing Christ, hero-worshiping leaders, and silencing victims—all under the banner of revival.
______________________
Kevin & Barbara's Info:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pellegrinowalk
Blog: https://www.pellegrinowalk.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61564847030961
______________________
00:00 – Introduction
00:31 – Welcome and episode introduction
03:00 – Gen Z exploitation and hype tactics
07:13 – Manifest Sons theology at the National Mall
12:05 – Dominionism, politics & the “Billion Soul Harvest”
16:47 – Missions, community transformation & syncretism
21:56 – Humanizing theology and rewriting the Gospel
25:29 – Elitism, apostles & celebrity spirituality
29:01 – Predatory leadership and the roots of the movement
34:09 – Misogyny, trauma, and manipulation in revival culture
39:01 – Lou Engel, mantles & the political push
45:58 – Nationalism’s impact on real evangelism
50:01 – When hype replaces the fruit of the Spirit
53:27 – Servanthood vs. the “superhuman” gospel
58:04 – Broken leaders and unrealistic expectations
1:02:26 – Rejecting hero worship & closing thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
______________________
Kevin & Barbara's Info:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pellegrinowalk
Blog: https://www.pellegrinowalk.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61564847030961
______________________
00:00 – Introduction
00:31 – Welcome and episode introduction
03:00 – Gen Z exploitation and hype tactics
07:13 – Manifest Sons theology at the National Mall
12:05 – Dominionism, politics & the “Billion Soul Harvest”
16:47 – Missions, community transformation & syncretism
21:56 – Humanizing theology and rewriting the Gospel
25:29 – Elitism, apostles & celebrity spirituality
29:01 – Predatory leadership and the roots of the movement
34:09 – Misogyny, trauma, and manipulation in revival culture
39:01 – Lou Engel, mantles & the political push
45:58 – Nationalism’s impact on real evangelism
50:01 – When hype replaces the fruit of the Spirit
53:27 – Servanthood vs. the “superhuman” gospel
58:04 – Broken leaders and unrealistic expectations
1:02:26 – Rejecting hero worship & closing thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guests, Kevin and Barbara Sisti,
00:00:47the hosts of Pellegrino Walk Podcast.
00:00:49Kevin, Barbara, it's good to have you back and to talk about the ongoing mess of the communion
00:00:56revival and all of the different intricate details that are behind that.
00:01:01We were sharing some stories before the podcast, some of which we can tell, some of which we
00:01:05can't, but needless to say that this thing that we came out of was a mess, and it is a
00:01:11mess that continues to become a bigger and bigger mess.
00:01:14That's true.
00:01:15Absolutely, John.
00:01:18Yeah, it's like I was saying when we were talking, I have got so much of that mess now in my head,
00:01:25and to be able to get it out like this is certainly helpful.
00:01:29You know, yeah, I wanted to talk about kind of a, we're doing a wrap up on everything Great
00:01:37Communion Revival, Communion America, the man of the Great Communion Revival that we've been
00:01:43referring to, Lou Engel, Dean Briggs, and Chris Berglund, and again, it's one of those things
00:01:51where there's just so much to talk about.
00:01:55We'll have to highlight some things, but wanting to wrap it up, we, just by looking at these
00:02:02guys and talking about them, we get into Manifest Sonship, we get into Dominion, Perfection,
00:02:12all the things.
00:02:14So we've done like, I think, 25 videos so far highlighting these men from our relationship
00:02:22with Dean Briggs in the very beginning, which kind of put me on a rabbit trail, both of
00:02:27us on a rabbit trail in the desert.
00:02:31I personally don't like the desert, so it wasn't the greatest.
00:02:35You know, I grew up there.
00:02:36There was lots of cactus where I grew up.
00:02:39I wasn't fond of it, but we stayed there, and we were literally full time in the desert
00:02:44dwelling on this kind of stuff.
00:02:45So now, looking at these men and looking at what happened, we just wanted to simply wrap
00:02:53it all up and summarize what had happened.
00:02:57Right.
00:02:58Yeah.
00:02:58And I think one of the things that I was noticing when Kevin, it was kind of, I told people,
00:03:06it was kind of Kevin's bag.
00:03:07I felt like God gave Kevin some really specific things to talk about and to point out and highlight.
00:03:12But one of the things that I was really struck by and continue to be struck by is the levels
00:03:20of exploitation.
00:03:22And it's specifically with Gen Z, as they've highlighted and put out that, you know, and
00:03:29the exploitation comes in the form of they're the chosen amazing generation and it's revival
00:03:36has started and it's here.
00:03:38And I guess I'm a little confused because I don't know what it looks like for a revival
00:03:45to be started and commenced when I don't see anything changing.
00:03:53You know, it just seems a little contrived.
00:03:56Yeah, it is definitely.
00:03:59Recently, I was digging into Robert Morris.
00:04:02I've been asked for by several people to, you know, tell the history of Robert Morris.
00:04:06How did he come to teach some of the things that Branham is teaching?
00:04:10And I started digging and you go down these rabbit trails, you find never ending rabbit
00:04:15trails.
00:04:16And one of the trails that I hit was, I think it was the year 1954, if I remember correctly,
00:04:23I'd have to go back and check.
00:04:25But there were so many weird things that happened in 1954.
00:04:27You had William Branham, who's working with the Foursquare Gospel, Amy Simple McPherson's
00:04:36church.
00:04:37And this is the church many of the Christian identity leaders were emerging from this church,
00:04:43mixing together doctrines of Christian identity with pseudo-Christianity to come up with this
00:04:48manifested sons of God thing.
00:04:50But also in 1954, President Nixon commissioned the evangelists of the latter reign, what would
00:05:02develop into the charismatic movement with the notion that communists are invading the
00:05:07minds of our people.
00:05:09We need you religious leaders to wage that war in their minds.
00:05:14So fight this battle of minds against communism with the people of your congregations.
00:05:18And if you look at the events that happened after this, this truly was a battle of the minds.
00:05:24But I can't really say that that type of warfare was good for the people.
00:05:27It is as though they literally started to hijack the minds.
00:05:32And not long after that, or about the same time as this, the charismatic Pentecostal leaders
00:05:39were developing different scenarios of how they could scare people by showing atomic blasts
00:05:48or hydrogen bombs dropping in Houston, Texas.
00:05:50This was printed all over the magazines and propaganda.
00:05:53They had alien invasions.
00:05:56They had flying saucers right on the cover of the Voice of Healing magazine and other articles.
00:06:02And you go through the newspapers and they're all talking about this alien invasion, this
00:06:07weird thing that's happening.
00:06:09They weren't framing it like an invasion.
00:06:12They were instead framing it like, this is the body of angels, the host of angels that's
00:06:18coming to take us away.
00:06:19And we're going to go with them to our celestial bodies.
00:06:22So, deep within Christian identity is this idea that you had the spirit man who would
00:06:27be connected to the celestial being.
00:06:30And all of that weird theology emerged.
00:06:33There's so many different weird theologies that began to emerge.
00:06:36And it all came about the same time as they were commissioned to wage war in the minds of
00:06:41the people of the United States.
00:06:43That's really interesting.
00:06:44It's like all of this stuff, just looking at where it's come from, what you were just
00:06:50talking about, and then how it's kind of morphed into what it is right now, which is a little
00:06:56bit different.
00:06:57And I'm sure within Manifest Sonship Camps, there's all kinds of different tweaks on it,
00:07:05I'm sure different kinds and different flavors.
00:07:08This one in particular, it's really interesting.
00:07:11One of the first things I noticed from watching the event, Communion America, is this idea that
00:07:18they were going to, I know from some of the videos that we did, we kind of highlighted
00:07:26Chris Berglund's teaching.
00:07:28And he comes out right out in the open, even on his website, he says I'm a Manifest Sonship
00:07:33teacher.
00:07:34He teaches a lot of what Branham taught, and it kind of twists and morphs a little bit,
00:07:41but he brings that right out in the open.
00:07:45And he's connected directly in covenant with Lou Engel, who is up on the stage during Communion
00:07:52America, talking about the revival that is coming now.
00:07:56I know what they actually mean.
00:07:59They mean they want to see the sons of God revealed, whatever that means to them.
00:08:04They want to see this perfection come.
00:08:08And from looking at Chris Berglund and studying him, he just kind of says it out in the open.
00:08:14They kind of expected this to happen or expect it to happen over the next six months to a
00:08:20year or whatever it may be.
00:08:22But we're seeing this from the stage, on the National Mall, right in front of everybody,
00:08:28with doublespeak, so, you know, yeah, we're saying, hey, we want revival for America.
00:08:36We want you to come out.
00:08:38We want you to lock in.
00:08:40That was Stignorelli said that, Mike Stignorelli.
00:08:43We want Gen Z to lock in, lock in, lock in.
00:08:47And what they're actually saying is, yeah, we want you to come up to this higher level
00:08:52and join us in this higher level where the young people, the Gen Zers are out there thinking,
00:09:00hey, I want to give my heart more to Jesus.
00:09:03I want to fight for him.
00:09:05I want to live for him.
00:09:06I want to give my best to him.
00:09:08But they're manipulating Gen Z because they have this double meaning or semantics like we've
00:09:16talked about in our videos.
00:09:18Well, and it's interesting what you're talking about with the 1954 thing.
00:09:22Because, you know, listening to what you were just talking about and it just feels like
00:09:28this interesting culmination because studying some of the there's a couple of really good
00:09:33books about Nixon and his link with evangelical America and Billy Graham and and how they
00:09:39all kind of came together, realizing that if you put the evangelical streams behind the
00:09:47politicians, certain ones will get in office.
00:09:49And it was kind of a mutually like, I'll pat your back, you pat my back kind of thing,
00:09:54which is gross for so many reasons.
00:09:57But when you start to unravel that, I don't know if you've read The Family by Jeff Charlotte.
00:10:02It's a brilliant book.
00:10:03But some of the threads of that and one of the things that I found fascinating when you
00:10:08were talking is Amy Semple McPherson had a tie with she was very involved with Andy Byrd's
00:10:15family. He talks about that a lot. And he's running YWAM right now. And, and he poured
00:10:19in, he considered her like a spiritual mother for his family and when they were in Alaska.
00:10:24And so it's just interesting to me how small the world is. And, you know, that was one of
00:10:33the conversations we had with Dean back in the day is, you know, he was when Kevin asked
00:10:38him about the militant language he was using and in some of his promos, Dean Biggs, yeah,
00:10:43was the act, the action. He said, well, people are stuck on high center. And if you, if you use
00:10:51the emotions, fear, anger, or sadness, you provoke a response in any of those areas, you
00:10:58can, you can move people off high center. And I was just appalled. I said, you know, Jesus
00:11:03doesn't manipulate people, Dean. And, and I think that's the thing. And even this, this
00:11:08group, you know, they would pan to the fresh faces of Gen Z and these earnest, hungry, on
00:11:15fire kids who, who aren't kids and they need to be treated, you know, you're need to, you're
00:11:22going to stand before the Lord and answer for, for how you saw him and how you learned about
00:11:27him. And, and, you know, people dancing around stage with a Bible in their hands and, you know,
00:11:32it's a Bible revival, Bible's not opened. I'm like, this, this isn't enough. It's so
00:11:39much hype and so much bravado. And I'm like, where's the real, where's the real? And, and
00:11:46that's where I'm scared is that, you know, I hope Gen Z is not so cheaply bought that some
00:11:53flattery and, you know, lots of attention is going to be enough for them to go, okay, this
00:11:59must be the Lord. I, I, I really think more highly of Gen Z than that, personally.
00:12:05Yeah. You know, and it's, for me, it's like a carrot on the string type of religion. So
00:12:10this thing happened in 1954. The, I won't go into details, but there was a link between
00:12:16that and Robert Morris. That's what led me down the rabbit trail. But during that same
00:12:21year, as all of this is happening, you are building up to the 50 year anniversary of Azusa
00:12:27Street. I think that was 1956, if I remember correctly. So you've, you've got this time
00:12:34span where they're building up, they're wanting to build up this hype. And they're being literally
00:12:38commissioned to build up hype in the people's minds. Well, that's 1954 is also the year that
00:12:44Paul Kane starts holding his massive revivals at Madison Square Gardens in Phoenix, I think
00:12:50it is where Chuck Smith is his campaign manager. So you've got that connection happening. And
00:12:56not long after this, weeks, months, I can't remember exact timelines, but if you go through
00:13:02the Voice of Healing magazines, you'll see it. They get this commission to build up this
00:13:07hype and this interest. They have all these new revivalists starting and like Paul Kane
00:13:12is very, very deep into the manifested sons of God theology. By the time he's going to work
00:13:19with the Kansas City Fellowship, he's basically teaching this Christian identity thing. Well, they're
00:13:24building up this hype to claim by, I want to say it was the year 1956, mid 1956, we're going to have
00:13:32a billion souls harvest in a worldwide revival, because the end is coming, the end is near. They're
00:13:38all pushing that hydrogen bombs are going to be dropping atomic bombs. It's all over friends,
00:13:43the end is near, we have to have this billion soul harvest now. And it seems that anytime there is any type
00:13:49of global conflict, that is what these guys do, they want to build up, we have, we must have this
00:13:54big revival, we must force it to happen, because the end is near, we have to save all these people,
00:14:00and we have to do the work. And that's the opposite of Christianity. It's not a we thing. It's what Jesus
00:14:06did. But they want to take the power and put it back in their own hands.
00:14:10Right. Yeah, I think that's really interesting, John, because, uh, you talk of that, that great
00:14:15harvest, that billion soul harvest, and, uh, you know, following this, uh, little bit of a rabbit trail
00:14:21here, uh, as that develops, I mean, that even got into global missions. Some of this stuff is, has
00:14:29really, um, the idea that, that even the, that Christ could incarnate through the church, that the church is
00:14:38going to be used in the last days, uh, that, that it's going to be this mighty, powerful army that's
00:14:45going to, going to save the world. But in, in essence, what happens is the gospel gets dumbed down
00:14:51or reduced and other things are elevated. Yeah. Christianizing nations and, uh, coming into nations
00:15:00and transforming the political nature and economic nature and, and all of this stuff. And it's just,
00:15:07it's just crazy. So we, we saw that even in the community of America event, because I mean,
00:15:12they're, they're right there on the national mall and, uh, and it's a, it's a political movement.
00:15:18It's not just sure. It's, it's religious. Sure. They're combining it, but, but this is about politics
00:15:25and this is about power and this is about dominion and it's about takeover. And there, I, I just
00:15:32personally, uh, in a lot of the videos I, I've shared, I, I think what they want is, is, uh, they
00:15:39want stakeholders. They want people to, to join, in other words, lock in, lock in Gen Z. So, so then
00:15:47we could have stakeholders in this whole great communion revival that's here in America right
00:15:53now, but it's going to spread all over the world. Uh, even Awaken the Dawn had, uh, an advertising
00:15:59of a, uh, university that they're starting where they can disciple people into manifest
00:16:07presence, into the presence of God. That's not talking about discipling people into Jesus
00:16:13anymore, but discipling them into, into presence. So all of these things are, uh, are concerns.
00:16:21And, and again, we, uh, we want to highlight these in our video, but we want to share with
00:16:26your listeners as well. Uh, just as we, we kind of wrap this whole thing up, we were wrapping
00:16:30it up, but in a sense, this is ongoing. This is not going to stop. We're just going to stop
00:16:36talking about this event for a little while so that mainly I could get my, my brain cleared
00:16:41out.
00:16:42Well, and I think that the connection that you brought up about this with the missions
00:16:46organizations, that's kind of my, that's my sweet spot in my wheelhouse and disciple multiplication
00:16:51movements and, and, and the UUPG, uh, unreached, unengaged people groups. That, that was kind
00:17:00of my, my niche for, for many, many years and, and taking Jesus to the last, the least and
00:17:07the lost, which is, you know, of course, that's what a Christian, right? Bringing the gospel.
00:17:13Um, but, but what started to kind of leak into that was this, this community transformation,
00:17:19um, which again, on first glance looks really great because, you know, I, you know, we're all
00:17:25part of communities where we want the kids safe and, and the marriage is protected and, you know,
00:17:32the streets safe and all the things. And, and again, that's, that's a great unto, but it can't
00:17:38be the focus. And so this Christianization, I think that's the nuance that, that we keep beating
00:17:45this drum about is the act that any Christian that I know, if I wants, you know, better schools for
00:17:52their kids and better water and better food source. I mean, there, you go to any country in the world
00:17:57and you talk to parents and they all want their kids to have it better than they did. That, that's
00:18:02a universal thing that I found. It doesn't matter what kind of culture it is. Um, the nuance though,
00:18:08is how that comes about and, and what is the cause? Am I the, am I the catalyst or is Christ?
00:18:15And if, if Christ has changed a heart, then the heart is going to move differently in the community.
00:18:21Uh, uh, a husband who's saved by grace of God and, and is filled with the presence of the Holy
00:18:27Spirit is going to be a different kind of husband and father and business person and, um, community
00:18:34member. But what we're seeing is this idea of, we go into the community and we're going to make it
00:18:40better. Um, I, you know, as part of a lot of them where it's like, we, we just have Bible studies
00:18:45and we're going to, it doesn't matter if the people are saved in the Bible study, we're going to teach
00:18:51them morality basically, and teach them how to be obedient space disciples before they have the power
00:18:58of God living in them. And so I'm like, so how's that going to work? Um, they're just going to be
00:19:04good moral people, whatever we've defined that to be, hopefully biblically, but if we don't have
00:19:09that, uh, discipling unto conversion. Right. And, and the fact of the matter is I, I was part of that
00:19:14for a long time, but when you don't have the Holy Spirit presence, um, it's basically, you know,
00:19:21it looks like the American dream to me where, you know, it's all man driven. It's, it's about my power,
00:19:27my will, my, and again, um, I'll just speak for myself. Frankly, um, I have zero power,
00:19:33zero will. And in my best version of myself, apart from Christ, I'm a big train wreck that
00:19:39nobody wants coming into their community, frankly, um, marriage, household. I don't think you're
00:19:44trained in a spark. Oh, that's because Jesus, that's because Jesus is kind. Jesus has covered
00:19:50me in his grace. Sometimes, sometimes. Right. A colossal train wreck. You know, I've, I've been to
00:19:56Mexico. I went to Chichen Itza and, um, we had a tour guide that took us through all different
00:20:01cultural places to see. And one of them was a shaman camp, which I was fascinated by. I wanted
00:20:08to learn more, but as he's taking to all of these places, he took us to a Catholic church
00:20:14that you could clearly see was kind of built. The blocks weren't quite as you would have expected.
00:20:21And he says, this Catholic church was once a pyramid and they tore the pyramid down. And
00:20:25the, as the Spanish inquisition is happening, they come through Mexico, force converted the entire
00:20:31population, those who lived. And what you ended up with is shamans who are preaching Christianity.
00:20:38There was, it was just such a weird mixture of pagan ideas and Jesus name with it. And you look at
00:20:46what's happening in the new apostolic reformation. It's really not that much different. It's just more
00:20:50modernized. They're wanting to force conversions, but it's just simply for a number. It's not
00:20:56really for an actual conversion. They want the billion soul harvest. There's no way they're
00:21:02going to just suddenly convince a billion people to become true Christians. But if they can count
00:21:09their name in that number, now I'm counting that name towards the billion people. And something else
00:21:15that you said, you were talking about how the manifest sons of God, how it's, it's really
00:21:22not, it's not portraying the true Jesus. It's kind of demoting Jesus in a way. Well, that,
00:21:27that was the nature of this. They, when you mix politics with religion, what you're essentially
00:21:34doing is you're trying to take very human problems and you're trying to alter biblical concepts to
00:21:41seem more human. So in other words, you're humanizing things at the very beginning of
00:21:46the doctrine. If you go all the way back to Genesis, they're humanizing the fall. They're
00:21:51saying that it wasn't that they disobeyed God. And this was the great thing. It was instead
00:21:56that there was sex and they created two bloodlines. So now we have two physical races of people that
00:22:02we can point to. It's a very human problem. It's not a spiritual problem. And that led to the
00:22:08race riots of the sixties. Now they're pointing at fingers at races of people and classes of people
00:22:13saying, this is the evil ones. We're the good ones. It's humanizing the problem. But if you carry that
00:22:20forward, not many people take it to its logical conclusion. If you humanize it at the beginning
00:22:25of the Bible, once you get to the cross, you have to humanize this as well, which they did.
00:22:32Robert Morris – this is what led me down this trail. Robert Morris is saying that Jesus was
00:22:37just a man. He was as human – I can't remember his exact words, but he was fully human. He was
00:22:42fully human, which is exactly what Branham taught, which is exactly what any of these manifest sons of
00:22:48God people are talking. They're trying to say that Jesus was a mortal, but a mortal human being
00:22:54that a spirit came into and empowered him. And you too can have the spirit. You too can be
00:23:01filled with this power, this manifestation of God. It's humanizing the deity of Christ. It's no
00:23:08longer a deity. They're taking it into the human aspect that people can visualize and conceptualize
00:23:17so that they too can feel like they can become supermen. That's essentially what it is, a doctrine
00:23:22of supermen. So when you do this, you're rewriting the DNA of Christianity, which gets really weird when
00:23:30you consider people like Bill Johnson, who is saying literally, when you become a Christian,
00:23:35it rewrites your DNA. He is rewriting the DNA of Christianity to rewrite the DNA of his followers.
00:23:42Right.
00:23:42Absolutely. And it is a very humanizing thing that they do, which puts it all on us. It puts it all in
00:23:53our lap so we get to do everything. And I've been kind of harping on this, but it is, especially
00:24:02looking into the details like Chris Berglund's teaching, Dean Briggs, Lou Engel, it's all about us
00:24:10and it's all about now. I've written this down and spoken at I don't know how many times. It's about
00:24:17dominion now, eternal now, perfection now, immortalization now.
00:24:22Kingdom now.
00:24:23What's the kingdom now? What's true about Christ is true about us now. Marriage supper of the Lamb
00:24:28taken from the time of the end to right now, we're going to have that on the mall. There's a spousal
00:24:34paradigm. Christ is coming back through the church now. It's everything. There's a Melchizedek order.
00:24:41You had talked about humanizing from the time of the garden. So God looks down, according
00:24:49to Chris Berglund, and he says, this is my image bearer. And I could create a Melchizedek
00:24:56order. And so they humanize all that, diminish sin, take it all the way through Jesus, all
00:25:02the way to the end in Revelation. And we have a man-child company with a rod of iron that's
00:25:08going to rise up. And so it's all about the here and now, but yet we know, and we talk
00:25:16about this all the time, that our citizenship is in heaven. It's not here on earth. It's
00:25:23not about the here and now. And so, so interesting what you're just bringing up.
00:25:28And when you talk about the humanizing, you know, with all the things that you both were
00:25:33talking about, it absolutely sets up, um, the, the, what you see in the NAR is that there's
00:25:42a group of people that know more than everyone else. And so if you don't know that, or you're
00:25:47not experiencing the freedom in your health or your finances or fill in the blank, um, then
00:25:52you're not one of the elite, but good news. They will tell you, and you know, you can, for
00:25:57a small tithe, you can be part of their apostolic network and you can have access to the apostle
00:26:02who is more evolved spiritually than you are. Um, and, and the fruit of your life is proof
00:26:10that you're not as spiritually evolved, uh, because, you know, you, you have some bankruptcy
00:26:16or maybe you're, you know, you have arthritis or you have something that if you were, you know,
00:26:23trusting the Lord and standing in faith, um, and chosen, then you, it would look different.
00:26:30And, and I, so then it, it, it creates this dependence, this interdependence on, on this
00:26:37super secret group of people who have this fresh divine revelation. And if you're part
00:26:42of, you know, I, I think of the woman with the blood in the story all the time and that
00:26:48she was like clinging to the, to the robe, if she could just touch the hem of Jesus' garment,
00:26:53she would be healed. And she knew that. And I find this aspect in Bible, in the Bible, it's
00:27:03so profound to me, but that picture is what I see when I watch people like at IHOP, they're,
00:27:09they're trying to cling to the robe of these super chosen people who have told us themselves
00:27:16that they're super chosen. Like, we don't know it because we've seen anything. We know
00:27:20it because they, they, they've formed a group where they all acknowledge each other publicly.
00:27:26So if we don't acknowledge them, then we're fools and nobody wants to be a fool. So we,
00:27:31of course, you know, it's like the emperor was new clothes. I'm like, does anybody want
00:27:36to say that the emperor is naked? Cause I don't see any clothing and everybody's like, the
00:27:40clothes are great. Aren't the clothes amazing? I'm like this, this feels like, uh, you
00:27:45know, I'm not crazy. I'm, I, you know, I'm not crazy. And I, but I think that's the thing
00:27:53when you start to humanize it all the way back, like you said, John, from like the, the
00:27:58first, you know, introduction of man essentially on his own all the way through, then it lends
00:28:07itself to, uh, an elite chosen group who's self-professed and self-anointed and self, you
00:28:13know, declared. And, you know, I think when you have a system where you're not allowed
00:28:22to challenge or talk about them, um, and you're equated to Satan as the accuser of the brethren,
00:28:27which is Satan's title in revelation, but is applied to people all the time. Um, you
00:28:33know, and again, I go back to the question, who are the brethren? Because my Bible's pretty
00:28:38clear about the fruit, you'll know the tree by its fruit. And so there's so many layers
00:28:43and, you know, the Robert Morris thing is, is profoundly sad. Um, but again, I think as
00:28:51we unravel, it's, it's the same ball of string. It might be somebody in Dallas or somebody up
00:28:59in Redding, or it might be, you know, Chris react, but I'm like some reason. And, you
00:29:05know, it all looks the same and it all, and it all joins and even the global missions, it's
00:29:11all starting to, to join. And there's so much poop in the brownies, John. I don't know if
00:29:17there's any brownie left.
00:29:19Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
00:29:23modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe
00:29:28movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham
00:29:34Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find
00:29:42the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and
00:29:48others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find
00:29:54resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you
00:30:00want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at
00:30:05the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that
00:30:11you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want
00:30:16to thank you for your support.
00:30:18You know, when I go through the history, I keep finding names of people who are predators,
00:30:23who were historical figureheads that this movement would not have existed without. And you just go
00:30:29through name after name after name. And the sad thing is, one day I sat down and I tried to compile
00:30:36a timeline of this so that people could see and understand. Because unless you're familiar with the
00:30:41history, you really just, you kind of glaze over, you don't really understand how significant it truly
00:30:46is. The problem is, when you upload a video like this, YouTube does not like it when you continually
00:30:52talk about people who are predators of minors. I'm being careful and cautious how I say this,
00:31:01because you will, you will instantly watch your YouTube video, either blocked fully or very limited.
00:31:08So I have to be careful how I do it. And I have to bring it out in small pieces. That's why I do it
00:31:13in the way that I do. But if you go back before the latter rain movement even existed, and just look
00:31:19at the big figureheads that were involved with the laying the foundation that would eventually develop
00:31:25into latter rain. You've got bigamists, you've got polygamists, you've got people who are violating
00:31:32the man act, which is taking a young lady across state lines for the purposes of sex.
00:31:38And I'm going to stop there. I could go through, I could go through another laundry list of things.
00:31:42But this YouTube video that we're doing would be blocked. And it just, it causes problems,
00:31:48because there's so much evil in the history of this movement. But the characters that I'm just
00:31:53naming and mentally visualizing, as I'm saying, the, the things that I have came across in history,
00:32:00they are such significant figures that without them, if you take any one of them away,
00:32:05this house that they have built completely starts to crumble. And each one of them that is doing this
00:32:10is bringing with them, not only with the crimes that they're committing, they're bringing doctrines
00:32:17for political or for financial reasons of their own. They're bringing in doctrines to support their
00:32:24agendas. And the sad truth is, when people get convinced that twisting the Bible to fit their
00:32:31agenda is a good thing, and they start defending the leader, it builds up this model where the leader
00:32:38is untouchable. And eventually, I don't know if you saw it, but I put out some, some of the history
00:32:44of Chuck Smith, Chuck Smith came into the same exact type of issue, some of his leadership was becoming
00:32:52involved with things that I'm not going to say because we've, we probably said the word too many
00:32:58times, but very bad things, I'll say it like that. And he declared openly, well, we have the Moses model,
00:33:04the people are not to judge the leadership. It is only God that can judge the leadership.
00:33:10And we're talking about predators. But the way that you silence all of the victims, as you say,
00:33:16we have a Moses model, you can't touch Moses. And he set the pace and set the standard.
00:33:22When I came across that, I thought, well, oh my gosh, that's, that's where this came from.
00:33:26But then you go back in history further, you find another guy who did the same thing,
00:33:30and another, and another, and another, and another. As far back as you want to look,
00:33:34there are people who are doing this. And literally, it comes down to people who are committing crimes,
00:33:40do not want the people who is funding their agendas to know that they are touchable,
00:33:46they want to be untouchable. Because if you can keep the people silenced, you can keep your movement
00:33:52intact. And that's really the history behind this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's one of the
00:33:58the things that I, you know, I haven't started talking as, as robustly as I will in the future.
00:34:05But the misogyny that is woven through, along with the racism, lends itself to, you know,
00:34:14there's a difference between women submitting to their husbands as wives, biblically, and what the
00:34:21biblical context of submission is, versus how it's used to control and, and, and to squelch
00:34:29and squash a certain population. And I, you know, I've always been pretty vocal with Kevin about,
00:34:36you know, this is more than 50% of the population are women. And we don't really talk about it in the
00:34:42church. And we're supposed to keep our mouths shut and, and, and sit quietly. And, and I'm all about
00:34:48respect. I'm all about honoring the leadership and the structure that, that Jesus put in place
00:34:54biblically. Absolutely. I'm going to submit to a man who lays his life down as Christ does for me all
00:35:01day, every day, if I'm a very intelligent woman, because that's a harder, harder role. However, what I
00:35:08notice is this, because, you know, certain demographic of people, 50% of the population has
00:35:16basically been relegated to a, a, a play thing, or, you know, somebody that's, you know, the head pat,
00:35:25and we're to be tolerated. And, and, you know, like, I, I mean, the play thing, it's just,
00:35:33and, and we're supposed to kind of wait to be taken off the shelf to be valued. And, and so when
00:35:41you see a demographic of people who have been raised to believe that maybe they don't have the
00:35:46same voice, they don't have the same, shouldn't have the same level of respect, and honor and
00:35:53integrity between the community members, because they're a lesser demographic, then, I mean, I've even
00:36:00been so saddened by some of the, the women pushing back against victims. And it is a function and a
00:36:08reality of a cultural norm where misogyny exists and thrives. And so much so that even the victims of
00:36:16it perpetuate the problem. And I think that's, that's something that I'm seeing is, is every,
00:36:22every, every cultural evil is being exploited and perpetuated, um, in some of these things,
00:36:31um, and, and through some of these men and their leadership. And I, it's just devastating. And it's
00:36:38not Jesus. And, and that's what I tell Kevin all the time. People are going to be fleshly and awful,
00:36:45but, but if you're going to stand on a platform and do something in the name of Christ, that is evil
00:36:50and dark. Um, I, I can't abide that. And I won't stand by quietly and watch you trash Jesus. Um,
00:37:00you know, it's interesting you say that because, um, we had talked, we talked at times past about
00:37:07the Million Women March. And, and so, so before this event of Communion America, they, they had the
00:37:15Million Women Esther March that marched on Washington, uh, right before Trump was elected
00:37:22again. When, when we had our first conversation with Dean Briggs, um, it was of course about
00:37:28manifest sons of God and him teaching that, but along the same lines, he was there at the Broadmoor
00:37:33Hotel fasting with Lou Engel, uh, concerning the Esther March, the Million Women March. And we,
00:37:39we, we pushed back pretty hard on that saying, okay, well, what is this? Is this another way to
00:37:46get a, a, a political, um, advantage here by, by using technically using women to, to do that? And,
00:37:55and we, we pushed pretty hard. Three weeks before the election. And it's funny because they,
00:38:00when Lou Engel was on the stage during Communion America, he used that event. He said that event
00:38:06kind of birthed this event. It, it helped in the whole scenario. And, and so it all ties together,
00:38:14right? What you're saying, John, what you're saying about, about racism, uh, identity, uh, misogyny,
00:38:21it, it all, it all comes together. And I think what we've tried to do, and certainly what we're trying
00:38:27to do on, on this podcast as well, is just inform people that understand where it came from. I mean,
00:38:35a lot of this stuff goes back and you've done this so well, Steve Montgomery has done it so well,
00:38:40goes back to Gnosticism, goes into mysticism, goes through Jane Lead. I was reading Jane Lead the other
00:38:48day and I was like, oh my goodness, this sounds just like Chris Berglund. And, uh, through the
00:38:54latter rain all the way to, to current. And we've got a man standing on a stage, Lou Engel,
00:38:59that's almost crying because he was there 20 years before that. And now is saying, now we're
00:39:06seeing revival. Revival is starting. It is starting now. And then the, the, the other younger folks
00:39:12from Awaken the Dawn saying, we want Lou Engel's mantle. We want his mantle. So what he's passing
00:39:19down, you've got to understand has all this history. So many people, they, they will, uh, talk about going
00:39:26into ministry and they want to study theology. I want to study history because the history informs
00:39:32all of the theology. And, and so when you start to understand where it came from with Lou Engel,
00:39:38this, this older man that's on stage looks very, very humble and at some points, and, um, and he's
00:39:46actually wanting to bring all of this from the past into the current and lay it upon a brand new
00:39:54generation who are hungry for God, maybe hungry for something. And they're going to get something
00:40:01that they didn't bargain for. Well, and the true difference that is the thing that I feel like when
00:40:08I pray about it, that I see so clearly that the Lord is showing me is Jesus, Jesus modeled that the
00:40:16greatest will be the least that he's come to serve. And so Jesus laid down his life and was crushed
00:40:24for my sin and my transgression and hung on a cross for me, which is contrasted with,
00:40:32I'm going to crush other people so I can be more powerful. I'm going to stand on the necks and the
00:40:40backs of different races and, and women, and I'm going to crush other people under my feet so that
00:40:47I can be powerful. And the contrast is profound. Jesus was crushed. And, and then you're contrasting
00:40:55it with leaders who are crushing others. You know, it's, it's okay that, you know, some of the clergy
00:41:00abuse, we're just going to nod and wink at it because if this guy goes down, then all the people
00:41:06whose salaries depend on him or all the people who have networked with him, uh, instead of routing out
00:41:13evil and modeling Christ, we are perpetuating it. And, and it, I can't abide it. And any true Christian
00:41:23who reads the word of God, who sees who Jesus was and watches how he stood and just took it while his
00:41:31beard was pulled out and a crown of thorns was mashed on his head and he was beaten within an inch of his
00:41:37life, unrecognizable, and then hung on a cross, a perfect sinless God, man who was perfect in
00:41:45everything. And yet he did that quietly. He didn't defend himself. He could have, you know, anybody that
00:41:52in the whole history of ever, Jesus was the one person that had a defense and he didn't take it.
00:41:59It's so powerful and different than what I see on the stage. The hype is so gross. When you look at
00:42:08the cross and Jesus, you know, I'll never forget the moment after we left the Branham cult,
00:42:17the period of time went by where we were adjusting, but after the adjustment, I'll never forget walking
00:42:23into the schoolhouse, holding my wife's hand as she was able to vote for the first time in her life.
00:42:29In the Branham cults, the women were not allowed to vote. And to your point of understanding history,
00:42:35let me take a side story here and talk about this a bit. In the 60s, whenever President-elect
00:42:44Kennedy was, when he was running for office, when presidential candidate Kennedy was running for
00:42:49office, there was this notion that because he was, quote unquote, such a good looking man,
00:42:55that the women's vote would sway him and he would become president. And this was outraging all of the
00:43:02white supremacists. Branham was in the camp of the white supremacists. So he introduced a prophecy
00:43:08that said that the women voting would cause the destruction of the United States.
00:43:13It was literally a prophecy injected into the doctrine for political purposes. So he injects this
00:43:21prophecy. He said that he actually had it back in 1933, which he never mentioned it until that moment.
00:43:27But think of that from the 60s all the way up to, it's now 2025. There are women, a large portion of
00:43:35women in this cult are not allowed to vote because of this. And the men just revel in this because the
00:43:42women are supposed to be subject to the husbands, just like you mentioned. And the problem is,
00:43:48whenever you start to understand history, like you were saying, Kevin, if you understand the context
00:43:54of history, while you're reading the Bible, you understand what the Bible is saying. In the context
00:44:01of that passage from, I think it's Ephesians, Paul is speaking to the men, the women, to the households,
00:44:07but he's speaking in a time in Greco-Roman history where the men was to rule over their household.
00:44:15That's the way it was established. That was with the government. That's the way the culture was.
00:44:20But Paul actually broke out of the norms and addressed the women specifically, radically,
00:44:27by giving them their moral agency, if you continue reading that passage. And actually,
00:44:32if you keep reading, it says submit to each other. And those who fall into the submission camp,
00:44:38they always fail to read that other, that last verse, or I think it's verse 21, if I remember
00:44:44right, where it says submit to each other. And there are other places where he even becomes more
00:44:49radical. And he says, there is no male or female. There's only one in Christ. So Paul was being very
00:44:56radical for his time. And yet at the same time, he was respectful of the customs. And when you read
00:45:03that letter, you can see he is being respectful to the custom. He's not trying to introduce a doctrine
00:45:08of hierarchy. He is actually trying to address the custom as it exists and address the women
00:45:15specifically and talk about the free moral agency. So this is a completely different passage than the
00:45:21way it has been twisted. But for political purposes, they have twisted the history. They've twisted the
00:45:28context of scripture. They've even twisted the way that men and women are supposed to look at each
00:45:34other just for a political motive. And that pattern that Branham established, it was widely accepted.
00:45:41I have yet to find a single minister out of the hundreds, if not thousands of evangelists who
00:45:48denounced this. They just widely accepted it because this is working. We're actually swaying the public
00:45:55vote. Let's let him continue. Yeah, it's phenomenal, John. Like, you know, just the joining the church
00:46:02and the state. I mean, as we look at history, which I was just talking about, if we look at even the
00:46:11Catholic Church and how that came about and Constantine and all the bloodshed that has gone on
00:46:18throughout history, just from the joining of the church and the state, the political with the
00:46:26religious. And, you know, you would think that we learned. You would think that we'd be able to go
00:46:33back and say, okay, well, yeah, we've learned this from history. And like, Barb, you just so eloquently
00:46:40said that about Jesus. As you look at Jesus as the model, and if we are truly to follow after him,
00:46:48and 1 John 2.6 says to walk in the manner as he walked, if we're to do that, why are we trying to
00:46:58Christianize? Why are we trying to take over? Why do we have that motivation in the first place? If we
00:47:03look at Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount, blessed are the pure in heart, the meek, the gentle,
00:47:10those who are hunger and thirst to righteousness, those who are persecuted. We're not the ones that
00:47:15are on top, we're the ones that are being persecuted. And so, we've turned the Bible
00:47:19completely upside down. We've got a brand new narrative, like you said, John, from beginning to
00:47:27end, diminishing sin, raising up humanness, or you could just call it humanism to a certain extent.
00:47:36And now we have that in Christianity. And now, this is on the National Mall, it's in the mainstream.
00:47:41And this is, I think my point that I always, always seem to be bringing up,
00:47:45is that this is all like, out there where, where people want to become a Christian. Like I said,
00:47:52I think I said it the other day, you know, you want to go witness your faith on the, maybe on the
00:47:57street or talk to somebody who's downtrodden or whatever. And you're going to go up to him,
00:48:01you're going to talk to him about Jesus. And, and yeah, he saved me, he changed me, look what he did with
00:48:06me. And, and the person's going to go, well, that's great. But are you, are you talking about
00:48:12the Jesus that I see in nationalism, but the political Jesus, the one with the American flag
00:48:19wrapped around his, his waist? Is that the Jesus? You know, do we have to now qualify
00:48:27the Jesus that we're talking about when we actually evangelize? And so these are the issues. So anytime
00:48:33there's that joining together and we were just in reference to the million women March, you know,
00:48:40that's what we felt like they were trying to do. And we pushed back on that saying, you can't do that.
00:48:46Well, that's the thing with the million women March. I I'm still confused, very confused why
00:48:51people want to be David or Esther or like, you know, they, David and Esther were amazing people in
00:48:58the Bible who were flawed and human, just like the rest of us. But I, you know, God wants me to be me.
00:49:03Um, and let him change me. Um, so I've never understood that, that didn't, you know, growing
00:49:10up Lutheran, I never heard that aspiring to be, but, but what I took, uh, offense to, and again,
00:49:18whatever, but when, when I saw the tagline for the Esther March, it was, you know, I can't remember
00:49:24it now. And that's kindness of the Lord, but it was so offensive because it was, it was basically like,
00:49:30if you really care about your family's women, if you really care, if you're a good mom, wife,
00:49:37you know, person, then you'll be at this March because we, you know, who knows if you haven't
00:49:44been risen up for a time such as, and it's like, it's such a gross misapplication and, and, and,
00:49:51and to use, to use women and what they care about and what they're wired to love as, as mothers and
00:50:01wives and women to manipulate emotions and to, to, to imply that if you don't do this, what kind of
00:50:09woman are you? And then to get to the event and it's all men on stage, where are the wives? It's
00:50:16all men. And unfortunately the one woman that was on stage talked about how, um, if people had trauma,
00:50:24God wanted them to let go of their trauma. And if they couldn't let go of their trauma, maybe they
00:50:28needed more faith. So you already have a group of people that are traumatized by their story as a,
00:50:34as a marginalized demographic and culture as women. So horribly, you know, it's like, I think
00:50:42the, the latest statistic is more than two out of every four women have had some sort of physical
00:50:48and, and it fill in the blank trauma. Um, and now you're telling them that if they can't release that
00:50:55trauma and leave it there, they don't have enough faith. So you're going to spiritually beat them up
00:50:59as a woman, the only woman, it's just, and again, that's, that's to me,
00:51:04a symptom of a bigger problem that, you know, when people are buying into some of these things and
00:51:12perpetuating trauma and perpetuating this abuse, because it's coming from a platform,
00:51:18you would think certain demographics would be like, I've had enough of trauma and abuse and I'm
00:51:23not going to perpetuate it. But that's, that's the nature of trauma and abuse is if you can align
00:51:29with the predator, then maybe you'll be safe. Maybe you won't be traumatized and victimized
00:51:34anymore. Maybe that's the safest place to be. And, and that is vile. And that is purely from the pit
00:51:42of hell. That is definitely Satan. And the father of lies is well and good alive. And, and that is
00:51:50sickening to me. And I just, Jesus, look at Jesus, look at the cross, read your Bible in context and,
00:51:58and do whatever it takes to get all this gross stuff off. That's not anything about the Jesus of
00:52:05the Bible. It's not the Holy Spirit. It's not the fruit of the Spirit. That's in Galatians 5, 22,
00:52:12love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control,
00:52:19goodness, gentleness. I'm not seeing these qualities. I'm not seeing this fruit.
00:52:23And it's all really a result of the hero worship. There's a book I've mentioned a few times or a
00:52:29series of books by Eusebius, who is the father of church history. And he talks about the results and
00:52:34the consequences of hero worship, how some, somebody, some human did some great thing. And
00:52:39over time, the village started to honor him. And eventually he's a deity where you're sacrificing
00:52:45your children to this is, this is the results and consequences of hero worship. Well, now we're in a
00:52:51world where the hero worship are, in many cases, not all, but in many cases, the heroes are actually
00:52:56predators. And so you're, you're even a step worse, I think, than, than many of the ancients who,
00:53:03some of them did some really good things who became gods. But the hero worship twists, also twists the
00:53:10Bible in such ways that even reading the Bible, the people don't get the right picture of Christianity.
00:53:16And I know I'm going to offend a lot of people by saying it like this, but I'm going to anyway,
00:53:22because that's my nature. How many churches who are in this movement will tell you, we need to
00:53:29strive to be a better person. Jesus is our example. All humans are below Jesus. There is Jesus, there is
00:53:35everybody else in Christianity. We need to be a better person than even the apostle Paul. The apostle
00:53:42Paul was human. We need to strive to even be better than him. We may never achieve it because we're
00:53:47human, but we need to be better. We need to try to do better things. We need to try to be better to
00:53:53people. All of the fruits of the spirit that you're mentioning, you won't hear this because they have
00:53:59turned the apostle Paul, in my opinion, in many of these churches, they've turned even Paul into an
00:54:04idol. He's untouchable. He's more than human. I was in a non-cult church, mainstream church, and they were
00:54:12trying to use the apostle Paul as though he were a governing authority and how he could have pulled
00:54:19out his apostle card and just demanded whatever he wanted, but he was humble. He was your humble servant
00:54:25apostle. And they completely misunderstood the relationship between even the apostles and Jesus. That's not
00:54:33how it is. There is Jesus, then there is everybody else. How many churches will say that the best
00:54:39thing that you can do to be a Christian is to do things to help other people, to be a servant?
00:54:44You mentioned the list of the fruits of the spirit. There are multiple lists if you go through the New
00:54:50Testament, and one of the things mentioned is servitude. You need to be a better servant. And even
00:54:55Jesus said that one of the greatest things you can do is to help one another, become a
00:55:03better person by helping other people and helping them in their situations. But that aspect of
00:55:09Christianity is taken away with the hero worship. Instead of becoming a better person who is a
00:55:14servant, they want to become a better person who is a Superman.
00:55:18Well, we just actually had a big conversation about this with one of my former spiritual
00:55:23father mentor types who has unfortunately decided to walk away from us recently, which was very painful.
00:55:32But part of the conversation we had that really offended him was I just kept talking. He,
00:55:39you know, so many people refer to the heroes of the faith, heroes of the faith. And I,
00:55:43I, there are no heroes of the faith. There are no heroes of the faith. There are men and women
00:55:49who in God's gracious, kindness, scandalous mercy and grace used in spite of us.
00:55:57God spoke through a donkey. I mean, that's the model. And, and again, you know, people are like,
00:56:04oh, Barbie, I have such low self-esteem. I'm like, no, that's how highly I esteem the,
00:56:09the God of the universe, my creator. This is who he is. This is, he's perfect and holiness,
00:56:16beauty and kindness and goodness. He's perfect. I am not. And, and so to call people a hero and of,
00:56:25of the faith, you know, and I was really shocked by the response, um, by someone that I'd been in
00:56:31relationship with for 22 years. And, um, he was so offended when I was like, I, the only hero of
00:56:37the faith is Jesus. He's the hero of the faith. There's no one else. Everyone else is just bumbling
00:56:42men and women who maybe get it right sometimes by God's grace. But the only reason we get it right
00:56:47is because of God. It's never us. He's always the initiator and, and everything good is Christ.
00:56:53That's what scripture says. Everything good is Jesus. Um, and so, you know, I, it shouldn't be
00:57:00offensive if we don't call him heroes of the faith. I, you know, I, they're just people. And I think
00:57:06the problem is when we're so busy trying to become a hero and, and build our personal legacy, um, this
00:57:13looks more like the American dream, this warped version of what we want to be like, you know, uh,
00:57:20this doesn't look like laying lives down and being, you know, he must increase. I must
00:57:26decrease. I don't know how that's him increasing. If my name splashed on my ministry, I don't get
00:57:33that. I, I just don't get that. And the, the, the idea of hero worship, I mean, that's, that's
00:57:39technically what we do with live, live people now too. But, but I, I know our time in the
00:57:45desert and that was part of the heart, the heart part was actually, we're starting, starting
00:57:52to see these so-called heroes topple every time we're finding out more and more and we're
00:57:59researching and we're going, Oh no, not this one. No, that one, we, we thought they were
00:58:04going to stand. And so when we started seeing this and all these men started falling, it,
00:58:11it, it changed our perspective. And so we wanted to look more at, at history and what
00:58:15Barb's saying is so true. We just, you know, as humanity, we want to elevate people and we
00:58:21want to, we want to put them in those positions so that we can create idols and worship.
00:58:27But that's the thing is if we just let them be human, if we just let them be human, then
00:58:33if I'm not expecting my leader to, to be a little God, if I'm just expecting him to be
00:58:39a broken fleshly man who has found Jesus, no, actually who Jesus has found. And he said,
00:58:46yes. And he walks with a limp because he wrestles with the Lord regularly, like everybody else
00:58:52who's trying to stay on this planet and walk as, as, as godly as possible by God's grace.
00:58:59If we stopped elevating people and we stopped making people so fantastic, you know, to Dean,
00:59:07if you're listening, an ant is just an ant. There's never a place where an ant is more
00:59:13than an ant. You are only a human being. I am just the person. You're getting perfected.
00:59:18No, and again, it's enough because Jesus is enough. I don't have to be a God because I know who
00:59:26is God. And if I let him be God, he, I, I cannot follow in those footsteps. He's perfect. Why would
00:59:35I even try? Why do I want to try to take his deity or take his divinity and steal it from him? Yeah,
00:59:43it's, it's appalling. He's brought me into relationship with himself. That is audacious
00:59:48and scandalous and, and so kind and so ridiculously just, this is a, you're coming up today. Yeah. And
00:59:57just like the other day. Yeah, it's true. And, um, I mean, I just, when I talk about Jesus and then I
01:00:06look at human beings, I'm like, just let people be broken because then maybe they'll get the help
01:00:11they need. And maybe because we don't expect them to be on these pedestals, maybe, maybe they'll get
01:00:21help sooner when they're making bad choices off. You know, we were, you know, I, I told Kevin, we
01:00:27were so stunned by Mike Bickle. And I said to Kevin a couple of weeks into it, I'm like, I don't know
01:00:33why, because honestly, I, you know, I've been in a couple of meetings with him, but I've never talked
01:00:39to him really one-on-one. I've never seen him in his house. I've never seen how he treats his wife.
01:00:44I don't, I don't know any of his fruit besides what I see in his public persona. So for me to go,
01:00:54oh, wow, I'm so shocked. I don't know why. I don't know him. I've seen him on stage a bunch of times,
01:01:00but that's not the same as like, you know, what happens when the dog, you know, pees on the rug?
01:01:07Like, how does he act then? And how does he act if his wife is, you know, struggling and needs
01:01:13extra help and having an emotional crisis? Let the reader understand.
01:01:21This was a little discussion yesterday.
01:01:22That was a yesterday.
01:01:24You know, I recently did a podcast with Bob Scott. He convinced me against my will to open up and
01:01:31tell a little bit more of my own story. I guess he was getting some people who were
01:01:35just begging him to hear more. And there's a reason why I was against it. I don't want people
01:01:41to do to me what these leaders are promoting themselves as. I don't want any part of hero
01:01:48worship. I'm just one of the, I'm one of the common people. We've talked before the podcast.
01:01:53I'm just, I'm not much different than you or anybody else who I have on the show. And I don't
01:01:58want to be seen as different than anybody who's on the show because I'm, I'm the least among you.
01:02:04I'm not anything special, but I can't imagine a world where it would be different than that,
01:02:09where I would want somebody to see me as different, see me as better than them. It just goes against
01:02:15my whole, my whole being does not want to be like this. And yet that's what they're doing from behind
01:02:22a pulpit. And there's just simply no place for it. This hero worship needs to go. It needs to be out
01:02:28of here. And to sum it up, an ant, like you said, an ant is just an ant. And whoever wants to
01:02:34understand what that means, you have to go back to the podcast we did previously to learn why an
01:02:38ant is just an ant. So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. Well, if you've enjoyed our show
01:02:45and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at William dash
01:02:49brandon.org and Pellegrino walk YouTube channel for more about the dark side of the new apostolic
01:02:55reformation. You can read weaponize religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon,
01:03:01Kindle and audible.
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