- 2 months ago
On this special report, India Today's Preeti Chaudhary, Rajdeep Sardesai, and Gaurav Sawant debate the explosive issue of election freebies versus welfarism, sparked by competitive populism in states like Bihar. As Rajdeep Sardesai puts it, a woman in Kolhapur questioned the disparity, asking, 'Sir, we got 1500 rupees and you call it a bribe? These big politicians make 1500 crores, what about them?'. The discussion weighs whether direct cash transfers are a lazy political shortcut that harms state finances or a crucial support system for the needy. The panel explores the origins of 'revdi culture', citing the DMK's 1967 rice scheme, and contrasts transformative public goods like bicycles for girls in Bihar with unaudited pre-poll handouts, questioning their impact on development goals like education and health.
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00:00Hello and welcome to yet another edition of the Democratic Newsroom. I'm Freeti Chaudhary and the topic of discussion in this edition of Democratic Newsroom has to be freebies.
00:12Well, it's poll season. Bihar is going into election and whether you call it freebies, you call it political sobs, you call it reverie, it's been raining freebies in Bihar.
00:22So what we're going to discuss, freebies, actual benefits or pure bribes. Let me quickly cut across to our panel this evening.
00:32I have Rajdeep Sardisai, Consulting Editor. I have a Senior Managing Editor, Gaurav Sawant. I have Akshita who also will put a lens on the South because Akshita had all started in the year 1967 where the DMK offered 1 rupee, 1 kilo rice.
00:47And imagine what it's come down to where Moshmi was in Bihar just a week ago and Moshmi, it's now competitive populism in Bihar.
00:56But Rajdeep, would you want to take it first?
00:59Look, I think you've got to make two or three important distinctions.
01:06One, I think if it is a public good, you cannot treat it as a bribe.
01:13If it is a direct cash transfer which is completely unaudited, done just before the election, a question will be raised.
01:20You give 1,500 rupees, for example, in Maharashtra under Ladki Bain, is that a bribe or is that welfarism?
01:28If you provide a child education, is that a bribe or is it, as I see it, a public good which is welfarism?
01:34Let's make a distinction between what is public good and welfarism and what is rave-dee or a freebie.
01:41I think it's an important distinction to make.
01:43We can't lump it all and say whatever the government does becomes a bribe.
01:47And I do believe that one person's rave-dee could be another person's welfarism.
01:52I'll give you an example in Bihar.
01:5420 years ago, I remember going there, Nitish Kumar was distributing cycles.
01:58Many people were saying, cycles for young girls.
02:00People said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it changed the lives of so many girls, many of whom today are voters.
02:08Gave them an opportunity to go to school.
02:11Take a look at what's even happened with free bus rides in Karnataka.
02:14Many women feel it's hugely empowering.
02:17Take a look at what Mamta Bainerji has done with Kanyashree.
02:20The, you know, girls' enrollment in schools has risen substantially.
02:25Or indeed, even in the Ladki Bahind scheme.
02:28Just to give some context to it, I remember in Kolapur, telling one of the women,
02:35Aray, sir, karni, tumalak bribe di liye, rishwat diya aapko.
02:39Immediately, that lady turned out to be, kai sir, humko pandraso rupai mil gaya, haap rishwat kehte hai.
02:45Ye bade-bade neta pandraso korod bana te hunka kya.
02:48So, it's a distinction.
02:50You see, it's very easy for us to call what is given to people as a bribe and not distinguish it from what could be welfarism.
03:02That's one point.
03:03And the last point that I would make is, I think there should be a proper audit of this.
03:07My problem is, when you give just before an election, whether it's a promise that I'll provide every householder a job, which is unrealistic.
03:15You're not going to be able to provide in BR 2.7 crore jobs as Tejasvi is promising.
03:21Nor are you going to do this 10,000 rupees you're giving for self-employment of women under Jivika Didi.
03:26Where is the audit?
03:28Will there be an audit after the election?
03:30Where did that 10,000 rupees go?
03:31If there is a proper audit, by all means, I think that should be made public.
03:36And then we can decide whether that was a bribe or change the lives of a family.
03:40But I am therefore reluctant to, you know, bracket something as a bribe or something as welfarism.
03:47I'll even tell you color TV in Akshita state.
03:49I thought color TV is a straight bribe.
03:54Ladies who I met, sir, humari, you know, in Tamil.
03:56They said it made a huge difference to their lives.
03:59Mixies, grinders, all of those people.
04:01So, I guess when you are in a low-income country like India, it's not so easy to make these distinctions so easy.
04:08But where do you draw the line?
04:09Because somewhere down the line, when it comes to freebies or welfarism, you need to draw a very hard line.
04:14Gaurav, what's your opinion?
04:16It's a great idea if you help people, it helps them in whichever way possible, that it brings them up to some level.
04:23I know of people who've benefited, even if it's just 3,000 rupees that's given to them, that 3,000 helps them.
04:30You know that people have objected to food being given to people.
04:34And India with great pride says 800 million people are being fed.
04:38At least they're not spending that money on food.
04:40They can spend whatever money they have for other things and improve their life.
04:45So, you may call it freebies.
04:47You may call it raveri.
04:48If it helps those in need, it's a great idea.
04:53You know, unfortunately, we only complain about or many complain about this money that's given to the poor and the needy.
05:01When corporates, you know, whether it's Kingfisher Airlines and crores and crores are written off and they siphon off money and live overseas, that's the real scam that needs to be checked.
05:13Whether it's a Vijay Mali or a Mehul Choksi who would take away some 8,700 crores and that's kind of written off at times, that is what needs to be checked.
05:22This is a very good idea to help people.
05:24You know, I'm going to bring in Akshita, but what I really do believe in, how do you draw a really hard line?
05:28I think direct cash transfers need to end in this country.
05:32I think that's lazy politics and we only encourage it.
05:35And why I say that, but I'm telling you why I say that, is because what is welfarism and what is freebies?
05:42When you do a direct cash transfer, it's, I feel, it's a freebie.
05:46And in the long run, somewhere down the line, each state will stop spending less, capital expenditure will be less on essentials like education, like health, like infrastructure, which we've seen time and again in every state.
06:00And I'll give you an example.
06:01You had somebody, the chief minister of Telangana, who said exactly this, that I don't have enough to spend on basics like health education because I am covering all the schemes that I was, I had to promise in the beginning.
06:12So, what I feel, why can't you link it to a public good?
06:18You say, I will give you a direct cash transfer of so many rupees if your child now goes into class 10.
06:24If a girl child is going into class 10, I will give you and monitor it.
06:29How do you draw that line, Rajiv?
06:31Instead, instead, what you do is you make education free for every girl child till class 10.
06:36You do that.
06:37You make health.
06:38For example, I can give you an example in Tamil Nadu of the Pudumai Pudumai.
06:42It's been a government scheme, which is a scheme where they gave a financial incentive to girls in higher education.
06:48It's made a huge difference.
06:49It's been a game changer, right?
06:51And that's a financial...
06:52For higher education, right?
06:53You tied it to something.
06:54Yes, you've tied it to something.
06:55So, it's not a direct cash transfer.
06:56No, it is a direct cash transfer into that account.
06:59If you tie it to something, what's the problem?
07:01You're saying, don't even do that.
07:03Ensure free education.
07:03Because I'll tell you why I say that.
07:05It's been successful.
07:06No, I'll tell you what really works.
07:07It's a formula that's worked.
07:07But I'll tell you what really, I feel what works.
07:10Instead of placing money into the hands of voters, for example, when you made bus travel free in Delhi, which was looked as a ravery by everyone at that point of time, it actually transformed lives.
07:20Because then bus travel was free.
07:23Why I feel is, for example, lots of states have now come up with a health policy.
07:27I think that is great.
07:29And that is great.
07:30You know, you do that.
07:31Make education free till class 10.
07:32Because I just feel what happens is successive governments just get so lazy by placing that amount of money in people's hands.
07:39And it's an immediate reaction.
07:41Now you're looking at Bihar, Moshmi, where 60% of Bihar makes less than 10,000 rupees.
07:47And then you're transferring in one tranche 10,000 rupees in their bank accounts.
07:52How is anyone supposed to make sense of this?
07:54You know, Preeti, it said, give a man a fish and you can save him for a day.
07:59And teach him how to fish.
08:00And you can save him for a life.
08:02So it's on the skill development that one can focus.
08:06And I think in this all discussion, what is important is the timing of it all.
08:11Why do you get all these freebies during the election season?
08:15Even the Supreme Court and the Election Commission has spoken about it.
08:18So you get, I think it tantamounts to bribery.
08:21I've spoken to voters.
08:23Vot kharidi.
08:25Vot kharidi, that lure.
08:26First AAP did it.
08:27It's seduction.
08:28DMK did it.
08:29Now you do it.
08:30You ape it.
08:31It's completely...
08:31Actually, DMK started it in 1967.
08:33Can I just say that Bihar is very late to the party.
08:35All of these states, in fact.
08:36Yes.
08:37This has been, you know, the norm for decades now.
08:40But Bihar is important, Akshita, is because Bihar was counted as a Bimaru state.
08:45You are asking for a special package.
08:47No, I agree.
08:47Bihar has just gone down as far as its fiscal deficit is concerned.
08:53Its budget has increased 15 times.
08:56You are not enabling people.
08:58Reporters were sitting and we were calculating around the table that if all the benefits that
09:05are being doled out by the NDA, if one family gets all those benefits, if you are flood affected,
09:11if you have a metric past student, a girl child, if you have a graduate student, if you
09:18have some women entrepreneur, all that money would add to amount almost about 1.5 lakhs
09:25per household.
09:26And Rajiv, how do you see a cycle for a girl child?
09:30No, will they not use that money to grow?
09:32How do you see a cycle as a...
09:33No, cycle for a girl child is transformative.
09:36Ah, good.
09:37Okay.
09:37Cycle for a girl child changed, Madhya Pradesh.
09:40You can draw that hard line.
09:42Then I agree with you.
09:43I think we've got to make a distinction, as I said, between public goods that transform
09:47people's lives and what you're giving just before an election in terms of direct cash.
09:51But that's really hard.
09:52No, no, one minute.
09:53And RTI has just shown, from this month, over 12,000 men in Maharashtra were granted benefits
09:58under the Mukhe Mantri, Mazhi, Ladki, Bahin, Yojna.
10:01Now, the scheme was exclusively for women.
10:03Some men have taken it.
10:04You are now giving it virtually every month.
10:06Now you are stuck in a state like Maharashtra.
10:09Do I give people the opportunity, perhaps, of investment in development projects in their
10:14village or do I give 1,500 rupees?
10:16The choice is yours.
10:17Governments are taking the shortcut by giving a direct cash benefit.
10:21So, I'm making a distinction between a direct cash benefit that's unaudited and public goods
10:26that transform people's lives.
10:28So, the fact that this information came out that money was going to some men came out of
10:33some audit.
10:35Came out of an RTI.
10:36Through an audit.
10:38It cannot be unaudited.
10:40Any, you know, the rule of the land, law of the land is any money that goes out from
10:43the government goes into somebody's account.
10:46That money is audited how it's going.
10:48It's only when netas start giving out cash like this that we've seen images of several
10:53netas doing that.
10:54That is bribery.
10:56This is helping these people some way or the other.
10:59You are giving them cash.
11:00I'll give you an example.
11:01Okay, Gaurav, let me give you a counter to this.
11:02This is an aspirational India.
11:04I get what you're saying.
11:05If they want to do better, they will use this money for something better.
11:08But Gaurav, we are saying to somebody...
11:09Sit at home and do nothing.
11:11But I'll tell you, tell me what's the difference, right?
11:13Where you have a Pappu Yadav who says,
11:15to provide for my constituency, where you see images of Pappu Yadav, where he's sitting
11:22in his car and he's doling out cash.
11:24And no matter what, we sit in the studio and call him various names or various use of being
11:30a criminal, but his constituency votes him back every time.
11:33Now, what is the difference between a Pappu Yadav who gives the cash to his constituency
11:39and it's not they don't need it, they need it, but no, but what is a direct cash transfer?
11:46Tell me the difference.
11:48Tell me the difference.
11:49If I give a direct cash transfer link to certain objective criteria, that's all I'm saying.
11:54Which is what all parties are now doing, right?
11:56They're saying this is not a Freby, not a Ravdi, not an Ilavasim, which is the word in
12:00Tamil, because they say that, you know, we're linking it to something.
12:03No, no, but Akshita, 1,500 rupees under Ladki Bahin.
12:08Do you classify that as a bribe, just before the election, no one minute, do you classify
12:12that as a bribe or a public good?
12:14How do you classify, it's given straight away, you're a, every woman in the household got
12:18it, more than two cropped women got it.
12:19If it's election time, it's all a bribe.
12:21It was four months before the election.
12:22No, I think if you make a classification.
12:24If you make a classification.
12:26You have an inferior voter to woo the voter, if it comes into your bank account, will you,
12:30if somebody is really fighting poverty or perhaps more so there are people who get
12:35the Kisaan Nidhi, there are landlords and farmers and zamindars who are getting that 2,000
12:41Kisaan Nidhi also.
12:42So how do you see Kisaan Nidhi?
12:44Kisaan Nidhi, sorry, Kisaan Nidhi, you should, the farmers who are actually deserving should
12:52get it, not farmers.
12:52But this is the classification that everyone is saying.
12:53No, no, no, no, but that you can't make a classification just here.
12:56Then don't give it.
12:57But every Kisaan across the country gets everything.
13:00Some rich landlord is saying.
13:01Every rich landlord also gets every benefit.
13:03There is also, there is also a problem in that.
13:07The farmer who owns the land gets it.
13:11But in Bihar, there are many landless people who take patidari pe lete hai, they take the
13:17land.
13:18They don't own the land.
13:19They just till it.
13:20And they just harvest the crop.
13:21They don't get that Kisaan Nidhi while they are the ones who are farming the crop because
13:27they don't own land.
13:28So that's why with some parties, like, because, you know, you tap into the lowest common denominator
13:34and what happens is the likes of Prashant Kishore are actually offering Bhusudhar redistribution
13:39of land.
13:40Now that is a promise which is, you know, which makes you think that, okay, can it even be
13:44possible?
13:45Because it's so easy to give that door.
13:46But Gaurav, you know, let me circle.
13:48What about free power?
13:48Let me, let me.
13:49How do you, every government now across this country is giving free power up to 100 units.
13:54Most governments.
13:54But Rajdeep, I think the problem is, to me that's a freebie.
13:58And I'll tell you why.
13:59For me, anything that's given as a sweeping, you know, dole out, to me that's a freebie.
14:03I'm very clear.
14:04Make that classification of who needs it.
14:06And then it's a welfare scheme because then you're ensuring upliftment.
14:09You're agreeing to what I'm saying that who needs it?
14:12Give it to the needy.
14:13100%.
14:13Don't give it.
14:14But you know, the problem is, in this country, Rajdeep, but why I say that?
14:17And Gaurav, you can win and Rajdeep can come in.
14:19In this country, yes, we have the marginalized.
14:22But the taxpayers in this country is just about making ends meet, right?
14:26So when you're going to try and have this conversation in a lower middle class household where they
14:31are paying 30%, 20%, 18%, whatever tax that they're paying to the government, will they
14:36be comfortable?
14:37Because for them, they've budgeted that 1,200 rupees that you're giving or 1,500 rupees
14:41or 2,000 rupees or 2,100 rupees as direct cash transfers.
14:46This is creating a whole lot of resentment.
14:48When you speak to the same lower middle class person who's paying that amount of tax, he
14:53doesn't want this money to go as a direct cash transfer.
14:55But he's okay with it if that money is invested in schools, if there is a health scheme.
15:01He's okay with that.
15:02You know, his reaction changes.
15:04Where is that empirical data to suggest what you are saying?
15:07No, but Gaurav, I must...
15:07That he's okay with this and not okay with that.
15:09Are you okay?
15:10As somebody who's a taxpayer in this country, would you rather that 1,500 rupees just given
15:16or would you rather that the lowest common denominator gets access to health and education and we
15:22better that infrastructure?
15:24So, I'm not okay with Vijay Maliya siphoning off 9,000 crore rupees and running away from
15:29my country, which is what happens.
15:31And often, all of that money often in the past has been written off.
15:35You know, when banks write off bad debts, all of that I'm not okay with.
15:40You know, with these steel millionaires, those steel tycoons, they take loans and then invest
15:44that money overseas.
15:45I'm not okay with fraud.
15:47I'm okay with real welfare schemes.
15:49Whoever brings in those real welfare schemes...
15:51Which are not accounted for.
15:54You don't know who you're doling it out to.
15:56No.
15:56So, that is why it's being doled out through bank accounts and that is why I'm in favor
16:01of regulation.
16:03No, but let's not add.
16:04That regulation is extremely important.
16:06One minute, Gaurav.
16:07The center has a fixed amount of money.
16:08Yes.
16:09Right?
16:10In the 2025-26 budget, 4.6% of GDP is being spent on education.
16:15Now, you have to...
16:16And this is, of course, center.
16:17You go to states.
16:20Some of them are even lower than that.
16:21Look at the quality of schools that you have in large parts of this country.
16:25Now, the same amount of money which you are now giving through these various schemes just
16:29before an election perhaps could have been used in enhancing your education budget to
16:33ensuring better quality of teachers, better quality of schools, better quality of hospitals.
16:36But can I also...
16:37A future of a country lies in providing quality, health and education.
16:41Go ahead.
16:41It does not lie in simply providing money before an election.
16:45No, but Rajdeep, why have we come here?
16:46Why have we reached this point?
16:47Because people are choosing that shortcut.
16:49It's not just the politicians.
16:51You know, there's...
16:51Ravadi culture has worked.
16:52It works for the political parties.
16:54It's a time-tested formula.
16:54It's lazy politics.
16:55By both sides.
16:56The vote banks...
16:57So, the solution needs to come.
16:58I strongly think the solution needs to come from the courts of this country who have shied
17:02away too long.
17:03No, I don't agree with that.
17:04I don't agree with Akshita.
17:06I don't agree with our job.
17:08No, no, Akshita, are you telling me that if I could give better schools and better hospitals
17:12to people, they would say, no, no, don't give me hospital school, give me money.
17:16I don't agree with that.
17:17Rajdeep, you can't...
17:17You can't...
17:18You can't...
17:18Inevitably, inevitably, every person wants their children to have a good school education.
17:24Now, political parties are not in an election campaign talking of development, but rather
17:28what kind of...
17:29Because that's a short...
17:29Because it's lazy.
17:31That's a short way out.
17:32It's lazy politics.
17:33Of course it works.
17:34It's lazy politics.
17:35Of course it works.
17:36It's a shortcut to power.
17:38Okay, let me ask you a question.
17:39The parties can choose to be a party with a difference, right, and take the longer route.
17:43Also, there can be institutions like the election commission or the courts that shouldn't
17:48put the onus on the people, but on the political parties.
17:52But let me ask you a question, right?
17:53Because right now, there is also a dichotomy in midst of all of this, right?
17:56Because some states are richer states, right?
17:58They don't really need that kind of money.
18:00And, you know, you could name a Telangana, because Telangana offered many schemes, which
18:05Telangana really doesn't need it as a state, because Telangana is a rich state.
18:09Juxtapose a Telangana with a state like Bihar, right?
18:12Till the time a state like Bihar sees development.
18:14Like, it's astounding to even think.
18:1660% of Bihar makes less than 10,000 rupees per household, but it does.
18:20Now, you're looking at a state like that.
18:22Till the time the benefits of power development actually trickle down.
18:26You know, we talk about it.
18:27I have said it.
18:28We talk about health.
18:29We talk about education.
18:30But till the time, it actually trickles down.
18:33Doesn't a state like Bihar, one size doesn't quite fit all, deserve that kind of compensation?
18:38Then maybe, you know, you make that distinction between a state like Telangana, just to play
18:42the devil's advocate.
18:43Preeti, I think it's right that if you look at Nitesh Kumar's schemes, he's allocated more
18:49than 13,000 crores to OBCs, EBCs and minorities for the development, which is the most impoverished
18:58class, right?
18:59So, again, it comes to who really deserves it.
19:02Will you implement sweeping measures is the question.
19:05There was a candidate in 2021 Tamil Nadu elections who promised the stars to the voters, helicopters,
19:14choppers, 100 days trip to the moon and even an iceberg to chill out in the heat.
19:20And later he said he was just joking as a pun to all the political parties who offered freebies.
19:25So, it's become like a, it's become like a joke, you know, that you give, you give 2,000, I'll give 10,000.
19:33So, Rajdeep, let me, yeah, I think it's also dangerous because of that, right, of what it does to a state
19:37inevitably.
19:38States like Bihar, I don't know if they can actually afford to be dealing, doling out these freebies.
19:43Look at Andhra Pradesh.
19:44In any other circumstance, Andhra Pradesh would not be able to come out with any of the schemes
19:49that Naidu announced.
19:50They've got backing from the center.
19:51So, now, you know, financially, maybe they can do it.
19:53But otherwise, Naidu Pradesh, it's a no state to ensure freebies.
19:55But Rajdeep, let me ask you a question.
19:56Let me ask you another question in all of this.
19:58Now, it really works spectacularly for some states and for some political parties.
20:03It worked for the NDA in Bihar, in Maharashtra.
20:07It worked in Haryana.
20:08It didn't work for the BRS because the BRS also offered similar kind of schemes.
20:12It didn't work for, you know, Jagan Mohan Reddy.
20:16It's about timing.
20:17It didn't work for that.
20:17You see, the clever politicians know when to time it.
20:20What do you mean?
20:20Look at what they did in Maharashtra.
20:21They did it from June to September, actually, till October last year, leading into Diwali.
20:26Suddenly, families had 7,500 just before Diwali.
20:29Clever politicians time it right.
20:31It doesn't mean that it completely arrests anti-incumbency, but it gives you a talking point.
20:35And the point that I made about the lady, only half in jest in Maharashtra and Kolapur,
20:39when she said, you are giving me 1,500 rupees and you are asking me, is it a bribe?
20:43And I know that my politician is making 1,500 crores.
20:46He said, the same politician who used to drive a scooter now is in a large convoy of cars.
20:50People are seeing politicians, their assets are multiplying several fold.
20:55People feel that this system is unequal.
21:03People realize there is bad governance.
21:05The reason on education and health, some people might prefer cash transfers at the moment
21:11is because they are not sure whether you will actually fulfill your promise about education and health.
21:15Better a bird in the hand than witches.
21:17We have very little time.
21:19Is it only about timing, Rajdeep?
21:21Is it only about the timing or is it also about delivery?
21:23And who is able to deliver on some of these promises that have been made?
21:27So, if there is also delivery backed by promise, perhaps those people get the votes once again.
21:32You are right, you are right, Gaurav.
21:34For once, I agree with you on this because the truth of the matter, Gaurav, Nitish Kumar.
21:38The same girls who I saw getting those cycles in the, between 2005-10 are now voters.
21:44They have seen Nitish Kumar over 20 years give them various benefits.
21:47So, it is not a one-off.
21:48Mamata Banerji, not a one-off.
21:49Jailalita, not a one-off.
21:50All the schemes that they did for women were not schemed just before an election.
21:54My problem was, for example, I repeat Maharashtra, is suddenly you realize Ladki Bahin.
21:59You discovered the Ladki Bahin only four months before an election?
22:02No, you discovered it.
22:03You discovered it in Madhya Pradesh.
22:05May I also make one more point?
22:05Then I have a problem with it.
22:07Then it's not a commitment to women's empowerment.
22:09Please commit yourself to women's empowerment.
22:11Okay, make your point.
22:12Something like a Manrega should not become what Jairam Ramesh had once described as a ditch-digging exercise.
22:18Let Manrega funds, if they are being given, let them be utilized very effectively for development of that area.
22:25So, whatever money you are spending in Manrega can also help in road construction or any other infrastructure development programs.
22:32I find it very hard, honestly, to kind of draw a line between a freebie and a welfare scheme.
22:37So, to me, I think that right now what we can seek in a time when everyone is resorting to this is accountability.
22:43That when you make a promise, you also tell me how you are going to make that promise and deliver on it.
22:48And also ensure at the same time that it doesn't cripple the entire economy of the state.
22:52Which is, I think, as a voter, they should be also educated on that.
22:55On the impact of these freebies because then maybe you break this cycle.
22:58No, but they've been told multiple times.
23:01Hasn't changed anything?
23:01It hasn't.
23:02Because they might not believe that anything else will come in.
23:04So, this will be available, this will be available.
23:05No, I mean educated about the impact of it on the state.
23:07Fair point.
23:08I really feel that you have to differentiate between the basic necessities and goods that are being promised to voters.
23:16Because I think it influences the minds of voters and makes them biased towards you.
23:22So, freebies, basic necessities like education, midday meals, food security programs, you need it there.
23:29And empower them, skill them, employ them, provide them employment and make a state self-enabled.
23:38Don't make it a Bimaru state, increasing the Bimari of the Bihar state by doling out freebies and making it more dependent.
23:45Rajiv, I'm going to give you the last word, but I just want to give my 20 seconds before that.
23:49Please do.
23:49Please do.
23:50No, no, okay.
23:50You didn't get much time.
23:51No, no, not a job.
23:52Hrithi, you get one minute.
23:53No, no.
23:54No, go ahead.
23:55No, no.
23:56What I...
23:57No, make your point.
23:57No, no, make your point.
23:59No, no, no.
23:59Okay, Rajiv, final, final call.
24:00No, no, no.
24:01I'll just take the last 10 seconds to make your point.
24:02I'm going to think.
24:02Please take your point.
24:03Take a minute.
24:04Take two minutes, people.
24:05Oh, Lord.
24:06So much pressure.
24:07He gets the last word.
24:07Oh, yeah.
24:08He gets the last word.
24:09He gets the last word.
24:10But no, okay.
24:10What I do feel is that the solutions in this needs to come through the courts.
24:16I think otherwise we are going down a rabbit hole, which is only getting successively worse over time.
24:21You know, from 1,200, it went to 1,500.
24:24The direct crash transfers.
24:25Now you're standing at 2,000.
24:26And competitive.
24:28Populism has only taken over.
24:29I think the court needs to step in.
24:31The court hasn't stepped in.
24:32When you can shut down electoral bonds, you can come up with something stronger where freebies are concerned, which I feel that not.
24:38But courts cannot do the job of the legislature.
24:40Other than guidelines.
24:41Courts cannot do this.
24:43I disagree with you.
24:44And once again, I'm agreeing with my friend Gaurav.
24:46I mean, this is strange.
24:47What do you expect courts to do?
24:49I mean, you want courts to decide whether this is a freebie, is this a bribe, is this welfarism?
24:54I don't think that's the job of courts.
24:56It's not the job of courts.
24:57Well, the electoral bonds are the job of courts.
24:59Yes.
24:59Election commission is not going to intervene because the election commission has already said they cannot.
25:04It has to be.
25:05The election commission has already said they can't intervene.
25:06Either the parliament or the people.
25:08The parliament is never going to do it.
25:10Don't do it during elections.
25:11What people are we looking at?
25:13The solution needs to come through the courts.
25:14Do it one year before election.
25:16Let me leave you on a lighter note since you gave me the final word.
25:19One of the first stories I was sent by my editor in Times of India to do was in the 1989 elections.
25:24Probably just when Gaurav was just about going to nursery school.
25:27I don't know how old you were in 1989.
25:29When Moshmi was probably going to nursery school and Akshida certainly was and maybe so were you.
25:34It was quite simply the night before the election, you and the photographer go and see how the liquor is going to be in various slum pockets of Mumbai.
25:44So we went and we saw that people have been giving Daru.
25:49Now people have moved from Daru to giving 2,000 rupee notes, in some states 5,000, in some states 10,000.
25:55We are only talking at the moment about the official monies through direct cash transfers.
25:59Do you know the unofficial monies that are actually doing the rounds?
26:02The 50 crores, 70 crores, 80 crores that are being spent by individual candidates for MLA election.
26:08This is all the money that is played, Preeti.
26:11The money that is played.
26:12Okay, we leave it at that.
26:13But liquor bottles are still a constant, Raj.
26:15Sorry?
26:15Liquor bottles are still a constant.
26:16Officially not in Bihar.
26:17I want to eat chicken also.
26:19But they're still there.
26:20But where we get.
26:21I agree.
26:22Gujarat.
26:23Okay, we are going to leave it at that.
26:24Thank you for joining us.
26:25We're going to leave the juries out there.
26:27Where you stand on freebies, we're going to let you decide.
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