Tell Me What You Really Think Season 1 Episode 1

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Transcript

00:00What happens when you take a group of opinionated Australians?

00:05One hot button topic close to their hearts.

00:08Why don't you just show your face?

00:10No, we've got to go there.

00:11They're called love handles for a reason.

00:13Throw in three courses.

00:15How is that okay?

00:17Because they're using their voice.

00:18Wait, wait, wait.

00:19Wow.

00:20Too much information.

00:21You have to look fuckable.

00:22You often get distracted during sex.

00:24And me.

00:26I'm Mark Fennell, and this is Tell Me What You Really Think.

00:30Imagine you struggle through life for decades.

00:36Everything just seems a bit harder, a bit messier.

00:39Then one day, you find out why.

00:42The number of adult Australians being diagnosed with ADHD is surging.

00:47And this wave isn't just challenging the medical profession.

00:50Many people who are reasonably functioning are prescribed potent stimulants,

00:55which are ramped up to high doses very quickly,

00:58and that puts them at risk.

01:00This is a new epidemic.

01:01We will look back on this time with great regret.

01:04It's leaving many of us with uncomfortable questions,

01:07including myself.

01:08What are you like in terms of emotional regulation?

01:11I didn't realise how much of this I was covering.

01:15Well, my impression is that I think you do have symptoms of ADHD.

01:19Hey, mate. How are you?

01:23I'm good.

01:24You all right?

01:25That is you, Rocket.

01:26Thanks, mate.

01:28Grab a seat.

01:29So, do you want to know what's on the menu?

01:31Yes.

01:32I'd love to.

01:33Around the table tonight, prison reform advocate, Rocket Bretherty.

01:36Yeah, like you know we've got ADHD, don't you?

01:39Winner of Alone Australia and fish farmer, Christoph Wojtkowski.

01:43Honestly, I don't really care what anybody else thinks.

01:45Radio presenter turned clinical psychologist, Dan Jones.

01:49Yes.

01:50True crime podcaster, Emily Webb.

01:52I'll vote for you.

01:54And ad man, Andrew Thompson.

01:57Before you eat the poke bowls,

02:00you'll notice there's something sitting in front of you right now.

02:03So, inside these fortune cookies are traits or symptoms

02:10that, if the internet is to be believed,

02:12are definite proof that you have ADHD.

02:15And you're going to start, Emily.

02:19OK.

02:20Love a fortune cookie.

02:23You put off a daunting task for six months

02:26and then it only takes five minutes.

02:29100%.

02:30Is that you?

02:31Correct.

02:32Is that you?

02:33It's me.

02:34I add a rider to that.

02:35Do you learn anything as a result?

02:36No.

02:38Last year I was like,

02:39I've got to do some tax returns

02:41because I haven't done it for like 15 years or something.

02:44So, I went to an accountant and she's like,

02:47Rocket, it's this easy.

02:49You log in here and you do this.

02:50And she showed me how easy it was.

02:52And then I got stacks of money.

02:54I'm like, oh my God.

02:55Why haven't I done this earlier?

02:58Christoph, your cookie is next.

03:01Mystery bruises.

03:03Yeah.

03:04Always covered in cuts and bumps and things.

03:07It's constantly walking into stuff.

03:09Spatial perception like knocking into things and just, yeah,

03:13always banging yourself.

03:14And yeah, I bruise quite easily too.

03:16So, yeah, just, it's awkward.

03:18Andrew?

03:19I've got one right here.

03:20No idea where that came from.

03:21No idea where it came from.

03:22You're the next cookie, Daniel.

03:24You have 50 tabs open on your web browser.

03:28So, I figured out that on Chrome,

03:32if you have more than 99,

03:34it actually just switches to a smiley face.

03:36There's something slightly passive aggressive about that.

03:39They're all important, so you can't close them.

03:41And if you close them, you're going to forget about it

03:43and you're going to get back to it at some point.

03:45It's like an online doom pile.

03:47Yeah, yeah.

03:48It's online doom pile.

03:49Once they're gone, they're gone.

03:50So, I also get a fortune cookie.

03:52Oh.

03:53And I don't know what's in this.

03:58Bed sheets?

03:59Like, I really have been a lot older than I would care to admit,

04:05where I've like slept on a mattress that doesn't have any sheets on it

04:09with a pile of wash sheets next to me

04:11because I just can't be stuffed putting them on the bed.

04:14So, you're on the bed.

04:15The washed sheets are there quietly mocking you.

04:18Yeah.

04:19And you're not using them.

04:20I just, well, like I've worked hard.

04:22Like I've washed the sheets.

04:23Yeah.

04:24That's enough work for that.

04:25Yeah.

04:26Does anyone else have a complex relationship with washing?

04:28With the washing?

04:29Yeah, it stays in the washing machine forever.

04:31Yeah.

04:32And then you wash it again with the rest of the washing.

04:34Yeah, you go wash it again.

04:35Add to the pile.

04:36But you know where everything is.

04:37You've got your doom piles.

04:38Yeah.

04:39But you know exactly where everything is.

04:41It's an organised mess.

04:42Is doom pile an official term?

04:44Because I feel like you all knew it.

04:46Yes.

04:47It is.

04:48It's where you have, you know, you've got clutter or you've got piles

04:52and it's like books or clothes or, you know, this or that.

04:56And it looks a bit hectic.

04:57Like my husband is an incredibly tidy person.

05:00So this is a source of conflict.

05:03My house is a freaking mess.

05:05And people say to me, Rocket, why can't you just clean it?

05:08And I'm like, I freaking tried.

05:10I just, I just cannot start.

05:13Like, and nobody understands that.

05:15They're like, just start here.

05:16Just do a little bit at a time.

05:17How about you just shut your face?

05:19Rocket, you have the next cookie.

05:25Burning food.

05:26Yeah.

05:27There was this one time I forgot.

05:29I had oil on the stove.

05:31And, um.

05:32Oof.

05:33Yeah.

05:34So the smoke detector started going off.

05:36And so I was like, ah, got to get the saucepan off the stove,

05:40turn the smoke.

05:41So I'd done that all in one motion.

05:43And the oil's just gone all over my hand.

05:46Gave me third degree burns.

05:48Ended up in hospital.

05:49And you would say maybe I'm accident prone.

05:54Andrew, you have our last fortune cookie.

05:58I might need Kristoff's assistance because I don't have my glasses.

06:02You often get distracted during sex.

06:05Actually, huh, did you?

06:07Someone knows something about me.

06:09In those situations your partner has a bit of a, you know,

06:14is it me?

06:15You know, what's going on?

06:16And it's not.

06:17It's got nothing to do with that.

06:18It just literally comes in.

06:20Yeah.

06:21My mind wanders.

06:22Like, I'm still doing the job at hand.

06:25Yep.

06:26But, and I'm doing it well.

06:27But my mind wanders.

06:28And like, I just, and then sometimes I'm like, oh my God,

06:31I've got to get back to here.

06:33Get your...

06:34You're not thinking about the pile of washing next to you?

06:36Yeah, nothing.

06:38It's fantastic.

06:40I guess one of the reasons why I thought this was worth doing

06:43is that a lot of these symptoms I think a lot of people

06:46would relate to.

06:47And I do wonder how you all feel about this idea out there

06:51that you hear sometimes people say, which is,

06:53everyone's a little bit ADHD.

06:54When you hear that, Emily, how do you feel?

06:57I feel a bit dismissed, you know,

06:59because I've had quite a few people ask me.

07:02I was late diagnosed at age 45.

07:04And people are curious.

07:06They're like, how did you know?

07:08What are your symptoms?

07:10And like, we can laugh about the laundry piles

07:13and all that stuff.

07:14But there's some really dark stuff to having ADHD

07:17that you can't explain and it's very internalised.

07:20I think especially for women.

07:22If only people understood how shit it can be having ADHD at times,

07:28you know.

07:29You know, I've got lived experience of the prison system,

07:31so I've been to jail.

07:32And when I'm in there, like, you've sort of got to be good,

07:35like, and I don't have a filter.

07:37So, like, I'm just not built for jail.

07:40I mean...

07:41Well, you don't have to be.

07:42Well, you sort of do.

07:44So, I just spend a lot of time, like, down the back

07:46or, you know, in separate confinement

07:49or in, you know, just in the naughty corner, basically,

07:52because I can't shut my freaking mouth, like...

07:54When you're ADHD, before you're diagnosed,

07:56like when I was growing up, you get this feedback.

07:59You're lazy.

08:00You're, why don't you just, all that stuff.

08:02So, you develop a self-image that you're of self-efficacy.

08:06I'm wanting in this, right?

08:08You know, it doesn't help your validation.

08:11It doesn't help your self-image.

08:13And I think it lands particularly hard with an ADHD person

08:16because we have that core vulnerability

08:18that we're not good enough.

08:19Yeah.

08:20Andrew, when people ask you what ADHD feels like,

08:23how do you go about describing it?

08:25It's like having 20 television channels

08:27going in your head at the same time

08:28and they're all equally interesting.

08:30Yeah.

08:31But the...

08:32putting things in any sort of order or shape,

08:36the executive function part is where it just collapses.

08:40Yeah.

08:41Has ADHD ever gotten you into trouble?

08:45Yeah, it has.

08:46Has ADHD never got you into trouble?

08:50Yeah, I remember when I was a kid,

08:53I had a community radio show

08:55and I thought it was a great idea

08:57to prank call restaurants and brothels.

08:59Sorry, restaurants and brothels?

09:01Yes, yeah.

09:02But, yeah, that got me into trouble.

09:03I was thrown off the air.

09:04So, are you a blurter?

09:06Do you blurt stuff out sometimes?

09:07A hundred percent.

09:08If somebody is taking a long time

09:10to ask a question or anything like that,

09:13I'll finish it for them.

09:14And that annoys the shit out of people.

09:17Yeah.

09:18Like, I think I'm a pretty nice person,

09:20but I was...

09:23can be...

09:25very self-focused

09:26and it's not because I'm, like, up myself or anything.

09:29It's because of the way we work

09:31and you're just talking, talking

09:33and you, like, want to relate to people

09:35and you're just focused on what you need to focus

09:38right at that time.

09:39So, that does come across, you know,

09:41growing up to your partner, to other people.

09:44Well, she's really self-centred, you know?

09:46And that is one of the really hard things

09:50to unravel about yourself

09:52when you realise you've got ADHD.

09:55But it's also...it just helps you understand

09:57so you can give yourself a bit of grace, I think.

09:59Well, just on the back of that,

10:01I remember quite vividly

10:03I was at a party in my early 20s

10:05and the same sort of thing.

10:06Someone would be telling a story

10:08and then you try and give your lived experience

10:11to show that you understand what they're talking about

10:13and this was happening this evening

10:15and somebody actually turned to me and said,

10:17we're not here to just talk about you.

10:19And that's something that's really stuck in my head

10:21and ever since then I've just really made a point

10:25to ask other people questions

10:27and just keep my mouth shut sometimes and not share.

10:30You then can't be yourself.

10:32Yeah, it's really...that is heartbreaking

10:34because I relate to that absolutely, yeah.

10:37That said, I tend to make a lot of NeuroSpicy friends

10:40and they're probably the most interesting people I've ever met

10:42so everyone else is missing out.

10:44Yeah.

10:47Perfect.

10:48Some scientists believe ADHD has been around

10:51pretty much as long as humans have

10:53and that it was actually an evolutionary advantage.

10:56The theory goes that ancient nomadic ADHDers

10:59would get bored and distracted while they were,

11:01I don't know, foraging.

11:02So they'd wander off and Eureka discover a fresh batch

11:05of bigger, juicier berries.

11:07But let's just skip through approximately all of human history

11:11because the year is 1798.

11:13A Scottish doctor by the name of Alexander Crichton

11:16describes a disorder where patients have the fidgets,

11:19but alas, no fidget spinners.

11:21Then, about 50 years later, a German doctor, Heinrich Hoffmann,

11:27writes a picture book about a boy who just can't sit still.

11:31See the naughty, restless child growing still more rude and wild

11:35till his chair falls over quite, Philip screams with all his might.

11:39The title?

11:40Fidgety Phil.

11:42Finally, in 1980, this fidgety disorder makes its way

11:45into the bible of psychiatry, the DSM,

11:48when it explodes onto our screens.

11:51The growing problem of attention deficit disorder.

11:54The hyperactive preschooler, the young child who's uncontrollable.

11:57They're looking at you like, you know, control your child

12:00and it's not me.

12:01There's something wrong with my child.

12:03ADHD in the 90s looked very young and very male.

12:08Swinburne University researchers believe this strange helmet

12:11will uncover the secrets of a disorder

12:13which affects up to nine times more boys than girls.

12:16But if the 90s was the decade when ADHD went platinum,

12:20the stadium tour was yet to come.

12:30In the 2020s, ADHD gets a rebrand.

12:33It's a bit less Fidgety Phil and a bit more Fidgety Phyllis.

12:39Christoph, you were diagnosed as a kid, right?

12:41That's right.

12:42How much has the conversation around ADHD changed since back then?

12:46Back then it was generally only boys get ADHD, girls don't.

12:51I remember it all sort of played out in primary school.

12:54I took a bunch of us troublemakers, put us into this little group

12:58where we were being observed and then next thing you know

13:00we're at the shrink and then skip forward a little later

13:03I've got my little thing of Ritalin and I'm taking some of those.

13:07There's a lot more understanding around it these days thankfully.

13:10And as well for boys and men back then because it was just like

13:14oh you're hyperactive, you're a little shit at school, you're dumb

13:18and that's not true. None of that's true.

13:20I was diagnosed pretty early but like my dad didn't believe in ADHD

13:25and he was just like you're just naughty and like I was pretty naughty.

13:29I was in the naughty class, I was always on like at school,

13:33I was always on the veranda, I was at home pretty young like 13

13:37but I was just like, I don't know, I was just, yeah, I was just being me.

13:43Why do you reckon dad didn't believe in ADHD?

13:45Oh, like because he's old and you know olden days people.

13:49Yeah, no, he was just an old dinosaur I think.

13:51Like he believes in it now.

13:54Andrew, were you one of those dinosaurs?

13:57Definitely. Absolutely was.

13:59I mean I grew up in a world where ADHD didn't exist even

14:03but when it became on the agenda

14:06and my children were being absolutely, you know, diagnosed

14:09I did deny it much to my regret.

14:13Emily, was there any suspicion when you were a kid that you had ADHD?

14:17No, not at all.

14:19I was seen as, you know, probably intense, I was a real worrier, a bit dramatic.

14:24I had no idea really until I was about 44, it was COVID lockdowns

14:30and things were just, things weren't going great

14:33and I would just stress out about the tiniest things.

14:37So I just started a process of researching, reading very quietly, watching a few TikToks.

14:44But interestingly, when I was diagnosed, my psychiatrist talks a lot about women, older women.

14:51Like my age, our hormones have a part in things where you're in perimenopause, your hormones are changing.

14:58So estrogen is important for cognitive function.

15:01Oh, that's why I don't have that.

15:02If you've got ADHD, yeah.

15:04If you've got ADHD, you're on a half a tank to start with.

15:08And yeah, that this might be bringing out things that you otherwise were able to manage.

15:16And also the COVID lockdowns as well.

15:18All your structures, all your structures were kind of taken away.

15:21So you're performing highly in your job.

15:23You're like, bang, bang, getting the kids here, doing this, doing that.

15:26And then all of a sudden it changes and things just started to fall apart.

15:30How important was social media in making you look for the right clues?

15:35Do you know what?

15:36It was important.

15:37And I was a bit nervous about telling my psychiatrist about watching Instagram and TikTok.

15:42But she was like, yeah, that's big.

15:44Dan, as a professional shrink.

15:47Yes.

15:48How do you feel about the sheer number of people using TikTok, using Instagram to kind of work out that they have ADHD?

15:54I love it.

15:55I really love it.

15:56Like, if you think that you've got something, you're going to go and get it assessed, right?

16:00Like, I think it's brilliant.

16:02You know, the whole thing of even somebody being, oh, I'm a bit ADHD.

16:08That's great.

16:09ADHD is a collection of different traits and different things.

16:12And if somebody has one or two of them, hey, maybe they're right.

16:15How I got diagnosed was, at the tender age of 63, was my kids got diagnosed.

16:22So, finally, my eldest son overcame my denial, managed to, you know, got himself an appointment and got diagnosed.

16:29And then my daughter, she said, oh, I want to go.

16:31And so, the psych that we went to, he asks you all these questions about her, you know?

16:36And then you go out and you wait in the waiting room while he talks to her.

16:39And I'm sitting in the waiting room and I'm thinking, I have just described myself.

16:42So, anyway, then I make an appointment and then I walk in to see the same guy.

16:46And the first thing he says to me is, yeah, I've been waiting for you.

16:49And...

16:50I mean, that's not creepy at all.

16:52Yeah, yeah.

16:53Not at all.

16:54Because it is, I mean, obviously this genetic component.

16:56I had no idea it was so genetic.

16:59But then when I got diagnosed, I realised, I think my daughters have it.

17:02And I said to my husband, I think the girls have got ADHD.

17:06We have to get them diagnosed.

17:07And he's like, well, hang on, Emily.

17:09Because, you know, I am prone to jump the gun a bit.

17:13You know, I love a project or...

17:16And he's like, hang on.

17:17But I said, I actually was crying.

17:19I said, oh, my God, I, like, really believe this.

17:22I felt very strongly that I wanted, if they had it, I wanted to help them understand themselves.

17:28Because there was a lot of stuff that happened when I was a teenager.

17:32My self-destructive behaviours that caused a lot of shame.

17:36And certain things that happened and then you ruminate.

17:39And I just thought, I just want these girls to be able to know.

17:42And just make, you know, different choices.

17:46Rocket, I notice you've got a little device there, a little clicky device.

17:50Tell me, what is it?

17:52Yeah, it's a little fidget.

17:54And it's got, like, this one goes all around there.

17:57And this is just an on-off switch.

17:59Like, press that button.

18:01Ooh.

18:02Feels good.

18:03Fidget toys for everyone.

18:04Feels good.

18:05And what does that give you?

18:06Like, what is that helping with?

18:08Uh, just attention.

18:10Yeah, okay.

18:11It keeps me focused.

18:12Like, keeps my attention, like, my little ADHD thing down here.

18:16And I can have a normal conversation and stuff.

18:20But I'm still, I'm tapping my foot too.

18:21Like, I'm always tapping my foot.

18:24I saw it going.

18:25Yeah.

18:26I thought I'd join you.

18:27Yeah, you did do a little tapping in unison.

18:30It's not earthquake.

18:31Oh, we're in sync.

18:32Yeah.

18:33Everyone's stimming.

18:34Yeah.

18:35Coming up, this show gets weirdly personal.

18:38I think you do meet criteria for ADHD.

18:41But am I just the latest high-functioning media personality to drink the Kool-Aid?

18:45I just think it's over-diagnosed.

18:47Every second man and their dog's got ADHD.

18:50No rubbish.

18:52So, if you want a sense of just how much things have changed with ADHD, all you have to look

19:01at is the number of prescriptions being written by doctors.

19:04At the height of what they call the tick-tock wave, in the space of two years, the number

19:08of adults on ADHD meds doubled.

19:11Right?

19:12It went from 105,000 all the way up to 210,000.

19:15And it's numbers like that that have people terrified that doctors are handing out amphetamines

19:19like their Tic Tacs.

19:21So what I would like to find out is exactly what does it look like to get tested for ADHD?

19:27Dr Hugh Morgan is a psychiatrist with a special interest in ADHD.

19:33Most patients coming to see him are either seeking a diagnosis or they already have one.

19:39I'd never ever considered that I might have ADHD.

19:42It was never something that came up when I was a kid.

19:44But in the last couple of years, a whole bunch of my contemporaries, work friends, who

19:49is quite similar personality type to me, have all been diagnosed with ADHD.

19:52And they've all just started looking at me going, oh, well, you obviously have it too.

19:56And I just look at them blankly going, what are you talking about?

19:59So when it comes to actually diagnosing it, what do you do?

20:04In my practice, what I do is I send out questionnaires to people to get them to fill those in.

20:11So there are approximately 11 million questions that you have to fill out.

20:18How often do you make careless mistakes when you have to work on a boring or difficult project?

20:25I'm going to go sometimes.

20:27How often do you have difficulty concentrating on what people say to you?

20:30I'm going to say often.

20:32Boring people are boring.

20:35How often are you distracted by activity or noise around you?

20:39All the time.

20:41How often do you find yourself talking too much when you're in social situations?

20:46Fuck you, questionnaire.

20:48I would also like to get some collateral history from your wife, perhaps.

20:55So this is the questionnaire that my wife filled out, which I'm not going to look at

20:59because it feels a bit like a customer satisfaction survey.

21:01And I don't want to see if she's got buys remorse.

21:03So that goes there.

21:05Oh, who am I kidding?

21:06I'm going to read it anyway.

21:08Very focused on work tasks.

21:14Far more likely to forget family household tasks.

21:17Because I always forget to bring in the bins.

21:20It would be really helpful if you were able to get hold of your school reports as well.

21:26Hey Mum.

21:27How are you?

21:29Hey.

21:31Did you have any luck finding any old school reports by any chance?

21:35Nothing major with behaviour?

21:37Like nothing with attention?

21:39OK.

21:40She doesn't reckon that I procrastinated.

21:45She doesn't reckon that I left things the last minute.

21:47She doesn't reckon that I had trouble focusing.

21:50But I guess the one thing that I remember actually is like very consistent theme of

21:55could achieve more if he would shut up.

21:57I don't know if that completely maps against ADHD behaviour.

22:04But then again, I've never considered it before.

22:07So, I've done all your homework, so I'm in your hands.

22:12What I might do first is just perhaps have a look at what are some of the things that

22:18people have commented on.

22:20What have they noticed?

22:21In what way do they think you might have ADHD?

22:24Well, I think there's a general perception that I'm a workaholic.

22:27And I think I have always had five jobs at once pretty much since I was a teenager.

22:35I need to be busy.

22:37If I'm not busy, if I'm not doing five things at once, I'm an anxious pain to be around.

22:43And I think people look at that and go, well, you must.

22:46You must.

22:47You must have ADHD.

22:48Do you have any problems with procrastination?

22:51If something's working or if I'm happy with how it's going, I have no trouble.

22:57No trouble at all getting it done.

22:59The moment I hit a snag or it's something I'm not good at, something I don't like,

23:04it keeps getting shifted down to the bottom of the list and it goes further down and it

23:08further down and it's further down.

23:10And that, now that I think about it, that is something I've done since I was a kid.

23:14In year three, when you have maths homework, I literally just put random numbers.

23:18This is the thing.

23:19So people with ADHD can focus and concentrate when they're really interested.

23:24So people with ADHD, they can focus really well on something they're passionate about

23:28and really good at, but it's when they've got to do their tax return.

23:37As a kid, do you remember, were you a shy kid, a sociable kid, a sporty kid, adequate kid?

23:43How did you kind of fit into the mix at school?

23:46Yeah, probably an unusual mix of things.

23:49I've never liked crowds, ever.

23:52I still don't.

23:54Always been socially awkward, like a nervous overtalker.

23:58I could be a very big personality, but I remember not being a very happy kid.

24:05Like I was very low self-esteem and really like a lot of insecurities.

24:11But I was, but there was also this thing of like, you could put me on a stage where you

24:16put a microphone in front of me and I could razzle dazzle.

24:20I could put on a show.

24:21What was the low self-esteem connected to do you think as a kid?

24:24Fat brown kid in a sporty school, to be honest with you.

24:30I'm so grateful to be out of school.

24:32The worst.

24:34Just generally issues with misplacing, losing things, forgetting things.

24:40Do you have any problems kind of just misplacing stuff?

24:45I have the worst memory for things that are not work.

24:50I cannot remember what I'm doing on Tuesday.

24:53I cannot remember where I put things.

24:57My solution as an adult is I write absolutely everything down.

25:02So people with ADHD will often find they are just, they can get easily upset or frustrated

25:10or irritated.

25:11What are you like in terms of emotional regulation?

25:14I'm always furious.

25:16I'm just reasonable at covering it sometimes.

25:20Yeah, I get annoyed and angry really easily.

25:23Do you have any problems with sleep?

25:26My problem with sleep is that the rest of you do too much of it.

25:30My preferred zone is four to five hours.

25:32Okay.

25:33And I don't get everyone else that needs more.

25:36Like do you, do you find, are you fidgety?

25:39My right leg.

25:40Yeah.

25:41All the time.

25:42So it will jiggle?

25:43Yeah, when I was filling out your questionnaire, I just...

25:45Jiggling.

25:46Yeah, it just goes.

25:47I didn't realise how much of this I was covering.

25:53The questions keep coming.

25:55For about an hour and a half until I can't hold back my own burning question.

26:00So having learnt all of this about me, and all the paperwork you made me fill out, what

26:09is your diagnosis?

26:10What should I take away from this?

26:11Yeah.

26:12So, on balance, I think you do meet criteria for ADHD, but what matters most of all is what

26:22you think, Mark.

26:23That's so important.

26:24One of the key things is deciding, well, is this actually having an impact on my life?

26:29Is it affecting me?

26:31Well, my impression is that I think you do have symptoms of ADHD.

26:35I think some of them would improve with treatment.

26:40So, for example, the emotional regulation, I think you may find that you feel calmer, that

26:49you may then find you can let things wash over you.

26:53You may be less frenetic.

26:56Mark, so what I would do at this stage is, you know, let you look at information and, you

27:03know, have a think about it and whether you would like to proceed with treatment or not.

27:09It's a lot.

27:12A lot more than I was expecting.

27:17You asked me earlier how much I drink.

27:20I'm about to drink a lot more.

27:27So, I have a confession to make.

27:31As part of this process, I went to go talk to a psych and I filled out 50,000

27:38questionnaires.

27:39And at the end of the process, I sat down with a psych and he told me that I made all

27:44of the criteria for ADHD.

27:47Whoa.

27:48Wow.

27:49Like, it's all very new to me.

27:52So, I think for me...

27:54So, you had no inkling?

27:55No.

27:56No clue.

27:57None at all.

27:58Yeah.

27:59We're doing another episode on fat.

28:00I knew I was fat.

28:01That one was less of a surprise.

28:02Does it make sense, retrospectively?

28:04Yeah.

28:05I think going through the process was weird.

28:08Like, it was weird.

28:09Because as you go through and you're checking off these behaviours, you're like,

28:11oh, yeah, I did that.

28:12Oh, yeah, I did that.

28:13Oh, yeah, I did that.

28:14Oh, yeah, I did that.

28:15And then at the end, I think it was like dominoes tumbling.

28:16And then when it came, I was like, oh, yeah, right.

28:19Okay.

28:20This all makes sense.

28:21So, are you medicated now?

28:22Wow.

28:23I found out all of, like, three weeks ago.

28:24So, no.

28:25Oh, yeah.

28:26Very new.

28:27Early days.

28:28Do you have any tips for the freshly diagnosed?

28:31Hit me.

28:32Welcome to the club.

28:34Okay.

28:35Great.

28:36Welcome, truly.

28:37It's a life-changing diagnosis.

28:39Rocket, do you have any advice?

28:41Find what works for you, like, because what works for me might not work for him or might

28:46not work for him or, you know.

28:48Firstly, it's okay to be you.

28:50That's, that's, it's okay to be you.

28:53How long did it take you to work that out about you?

28:55Um, when I was sitting on a beach doing alone.

28:59Yeah, right.

29:00Yeah.

29:01Had a lot of time to think.

29:06My neurodiversity is not something that I speak about openly that often at all.

29:10And I tend to play my cards pretty close to my chest.

29:14Not something that I've ever even told my friends, although some of them probably worked

29:18it out, but there's a lot that we have no idea because I just mask it.

29:22So it's, um, it's almost like coming out and it's a little bit difficult.

29:27But I'm, I'm hoping it's going to get received well.

29:31It's a long time to discover who you really are.

29:33I still don't know who I am.

29:35But I'm okay with that.

29:37That's the most important thing.

29:38And you go, sorry, to go back to what would I advise.

29:41You're on the first step of a journey.

29:43Finally, those, what's happening and how you encountering the world and all these things

29:47are going to start making sense.

29:49So it's a process.

29:50It's a never ending process.

29:52And so when you looked back at your life, things that happened, did you look at your

29:57life differently now that you've had the diagnosis?

29:59Completely.

30:00It's like a movie.

30:01Sometimes, you know, you get the, you get those movies of the twist at the end and suddenly

30:03you rerun the whole movie and then you go, oh my goodness.

30:05And the whole movie changes.

30:08That's what happened.

30:09Dan, did you look at the past differently after you got a diagnosis?

30:12Massively.

30:13Massively.

30:14Like I was, I was shocking in school.

30:17I assumed I was an idiot.

30:19My ATAR was like 50.15.

30:23And yeah, shocking, like terrible to get, couldn't get any university.

30:28So what was the catalyst for you to get diagnosed?

30:31I was doing really well.

30:34Like in my radio career before I switched, I had the number one rating show in Canberra,

30:40but I was falling apart inside.

30:44And I had a bit of a, a break just in my brain, to put it that way.

30:50And I walked around cryptically for several hours, sort of like tore half of my shirt off

30:59and was thinking about doing very silly things and eventually took myself to the hospital.

31:05I think ADHD played a role in, in that.

31:09There were other things too, obviously, like it doesn't happen in a vacuum, but I think that was a big part of it.

31:14And so how does the trajectory of your life change once you get a diagnosis?

31:18Well, as soon as I got diagnosed, I got put on dexamphetamine and it felt like a section of my brain unlocked.

31:27I launched into uni and, you know, long story short, I'm a clinical psychologist now.

31:32So I mustn't be stupid.

31:34No.

31:35Um, but yeah, something was going on.

31:37So how old were you when you actually got the diagnosis?

31:3925.

31:40Rocket, what was your life like before diagnosis?

31:44Um, I started using drugs very early on in age.

31:48I was about 14 when I started using speed or 13.

31:51And then we worked out that I was self-medicating, um, you know, because I would, I would have speed

31:57and it would make me slow down, slow, like I'd be on everyone else's level and my brain would calm down.

32:04And so I, I definitely think, um, that if I had been correctly medicated through my teens,

32:11then my life could have been a whole lot different.

32:14Just, just walk me through the timeline of your diagnosis.

32:17Like when did, like, when did it come up?

32:18So I got diagnosed when I was young and then I got diagnosed again when I was, uh, like in jail at 18.

32:24Um, and you know, I've never, apart from Townsville Jail, I wasn't allowed to have my medication in jail either.

32:32So even if I was on it outside, I wasn't allowed to be on it inside.

32:37Um, you know, they, they've got all dumb rules around medications and stuff that you can have in jail.

32:42Um, and I, I, I think that, you know, if I was medicated when I, when I was coming out of jail or when I was in jail,

32:50my life could have, everything could have been different.

32:53So there's an interesting thing here.

32:54So they reckon 3% of the general population has ADHD, but 25% of the prison population have it?

33:01Yes.

33:02If you do the data set as people we, who are incarcerated, where, um, substance misuse is, is a core comorbidity or whatever.

33:12Yeah.

33:13It goes on like that.

33:14Right.

33:15What you're doing, because it's not recognised, you're putting the, those same people back into the community afterwards in exactly the same set of conditions that got them in there in the first place.

33:24And then we wonder why there's a revolving door.

33:26I also think that a lot of the prison population is undiagnosed as well.

33:30You know, if you're going through the public system, you, you can wait years for a diagnosis, you know.

33:35It's, it's not something a lot of people can just go out and go, oh, I've got $600 to go to a psych.

33:40Like, you know, a lot of people aren't in that position to be able to do that.

33:43They're living paycheck to paycheck, you know.

33:46Okay.

33:47Did anyone else self-medicate growing up?

33:49Alcohol.

33:50Alcohol?

33:51Yeah.

33:52Yeah, alcohol.

33:53So what was, what was it that alcohol gave you?

33:55Oh, it just chilled me out.

33:56Yeah, okay.

33:57Made you feel like you could fit in?

33:59At school, um, I would raid my mother's supplies of Valium and that kind of thing.

34:04And then after school, it was alcohol and cannabis, but then mostly cannabis.

34:09Uh, caffeine, coffee.

34:11Caffeine?

34:12Yeah.

34:13Also, I loved, couldn't wait to start smoking.

34:15Like, you know, it's the impulsivity.

34:17It's like finding something that's going to change the way you feel.

34:20And, and that, you know, has been a big journey, I think, for everyone's life.

34:25Because you think, am I like, have I got anxiety?

34:28Am I an addict?

34:29Am I this?

34:30It's like, actually, I had undiagnosed ADHD for a long time.

34:34Yeah.

34:35So, Rocket, do you reckon you were unfairly judged when you were younger?

34:38Yeah, 100%.

34:39Yeah.

34:40And, and I still get unfairly judged.

34:42Like, I, I'm just used to it, you know.

34:44I'm very used to being judged.

34:46Um, and I, I, fuck them.

34:49Yeah.

34:50You want to judge me?

34:51I don't really care, mate.

34:52That's on you.

34:53After the break, are ADHD meds being overprescribed?

34:57Right.

34:58These ADHD super clinics are churning out the diagnoses, churning out the prescriptions without

35:07adequate clinical oversight or accountability for what they've just done.

35:11And, can you ruin a dinner party by talking about ADHD drugs?

35:15I was, like, off my chops.

35:18But turn me into a zombie.

35:19I need it.

35:20My brain needs it.

35:21You wouldn't say that to someone with diabetes.

35:23Oh, insulin's overprescribed.

35:25Top 10 signs of ADHD.

35:26It's entirely possible.

35:27Oh, I wonder what this does.

35:28Let's do a medication update, shall we?

35:30We're talking, like, billions of views of hashtag ADHD on TikTok.

35:47This is not a small situation.

35:50This is one of the big movements of our time.

35:53Dr. Killian Ash is a psychiatrist at Royal Melbourne Hospital's Acute Psychiatric Unit.

35:59And he thinks ADHD diagnoses are rising too high, too fast.

36:04With the greatest of respect to all concerned, I think there's a real social contagion effect.

36:09The numbers aren't stabilising.

36:11The numbers are continuing to ramp up and up and up.

36:14So, what are you seeing in your work that makes you concerned about the way ADHD is being diagnosed?

36:20Many people who are reasonably functioning are prescribed potent stimulants very quickly,

36:27which are ramped up to high doses very quickly.

36:30And that puts them at risk of psychosis and mania in a manner I don't think people are aware of.

36:36What does that look like?

36:38That's not a great situation.

36:41That is a sad, life-altering, at times life-threatening situation.

36:46Just as recently as two weeks ago, someone with a purely stimulant-induced psychosis

36:52fled their own state with their children in a state of paranoid terror,

36:57leading to great risk and vulnerability for that family.

37:00And when I rang the psychiatrist to say, hey, this person has a personal history of psychosis

37:06and a family history of psychosis, and they were on high dose stimulants, what happened?

37:12They said, oh, well, I met them on telehealth and I didn't notice any problems.

37:17And that's problematic.

37:19Stimulants are generally the first line of treatment for ADHD.

37:23They work by increasing the levels of neurotransmitters, the chemicals in the brain like dopamine.

37:28This boosts communication between brain cells, improving attention, memory and impulse control.

37:34Stimulants have been used to treat ADHD-like symptoms since the 1930s.

37:39And it seems the controversy is almost as old as the drugs themselves.

37:43It's pretty scary stuff to put people on drugs like this at a young age.

37:48Some of the drugs that they're giving them are amphetamine drugs.

37:51Why are we doing this with Ventolin? There are side effects with Ventolin.

37:54Where is this drive against really the stimulant medication?

37:58Alright, I think you've made a point, David.

38:00Which I can tell you has an enormous benefit to me and others.

38:02This is not a paracetamol. This is not even a Prozac.

38:05This is a high octane, high potency, highly stimulating medication.

38:12There's so many cases that we're seeing.

38:14There's always somebody in our ward with a prescribed stimulant induced mania and or psychosis.

38:21The risk of psychosis is very low and it can happen.

38:26However, this would generally be in somebody who has that underlying predisposition.

38:32But on balance, it seems that the stimulant medications don't necessarily seem to be likely to make the presentation of these conditions occur more frequently.

38:46It's kind of like if you compare those people who were having treatment and not having treatment that they're probably going to evolve.

38:53However, if people are abusing these medications, then yes, that can be a problem, particularly the short-acting medications.

39:02So I've had some people who, you know, have taken, instead of their 6 dexamphetamine a day, they're taking 50 a day.

39:10You know, so that would be really like speed.

39:12And yeah, and some people may actually, you know, get paranoid and develop psychotic symptoms.

39:18There's no shortage of your colleagues that would argue that the rewards of some of these drugs outweigh the risks.

39:25I'd like them to come and meet our patients.

39:27You know, I think there's a disavowal, there's a kind of a dismissal that this is happening.

39:34We owe it to the public to be judicious in our use of medications of this potent nature to avoid the spiral effect.

39:42Previously seen an epidemic such as the benzodiazepine epidemic, the opiate epidemic, which continue to ravage the USA and Australia to this day.

39:52And this is a new epidemic.

39:54We will look back on this time with great regret.

40:02People have a lot of opinions about ADHD.

40:05They do.

40:06So what I'm going to do now is I'm going to read you out some statements, things that people say about ADHD.

40:11And I just want you to react.

40:14I just want you to give me your unfiltered reaction.

40:17The pendulum has swung too far and now we're over-diagnosing ADHD.

40:23No, rubbish.

40:24I don't think that you're going to get diagnosed if you don't have it.

40:30Go on, Rocket.

40:31Yeah, go on, go on.

40:32Yeah, I just think it's over-diagnosed.

40:34Why?

40:35Like, why do you think it's over-diagnosed?

40:36Oh, you do?

40:37Yeah, yeah.

40:38Like, there are a lot of diagnoses.

40:40Every second man and adult's got ADHD.

40:43Yeah.

40:44And I think, you know, if you've got the money to go and get the diagnosis, you can go to any psych and you can shop around until you get the diagnosis you want.

40:55That's interesting.

40:56I didn't expect you to say that.

40:57Yeah.

40:58Neither did I.

40:59Andrew, what do you think about the idea of being over-diagnosed?

41:01I think that it's a misreading of what's actually happening.

41:04I think a lot more people are presenting for diagnosis.

41:06The diagnostic criteria haven't changed.

41:08And so, you know, the implication of that is, oh, it's a trend or, you know, there's over-diagnosis.

41:17It's not maybe over-diagnosis.

41:18The diagnosis there, more people present.

41:20And that's a good thing from my point of view.

41:23If you suspect, go and have a look.

41:25Crystal?

41:26A hundred percent.

41:27If you think you've got something, go get it checked out.

41:28Absolutely.

41:29If it's not ADHD, it could be something else.

41:31And if it's something else, here's the pathway to help you with that.

41:34Exactly.

41:35You know something else that was not diagnosed as much when we were punishing people for it?

41:40Being left-handed.

41:41You know, like, shock horror, when we stopped beating the shit out of people with the cane

41:48at school for being left-handed or using their left hand, the amount of people that

41:53said they were left-handed skyrocketed.

41:55What a frickin' mystery that is.

41:57Thanks for that, I'm ambidextrous.

41:59I'll stop showing off, Crystal.

42:01This is how we went alone.

42:03So, who's ready for spicy opinion number two?

42:06Yes.

42:07Too many privileged and high-functioning people are getting diagnosed.

42:11Yeah, it would be good to see, you know, people from lower social economic places be

42:18able to get the diagnosis as easy as, like, your rich white lady.

42:22I'm not rich, no.

42:23No, I'm kidding.

42:24Middle-class white lady, you know?

42:26My ADHD, I felt, has been debilitating, but I could access the care, I could get diagnosed,

42:33and yes, I have been quite high-functioning on the outside for my life, so I 100% agree

42:39with that, and I wish there was more access for everyone.

42:43Andrew, from the outside, you look like a perfectly successful man, and ADHD hasn't held you back

42:48at all.

42:49Is that fair?

42:51Uh, from the outside, absolutely.

42:54Yeah, of course.

42:55So what does that opinion get wrong about you?

42:57First of all, I mean everything.

42:58First of all, I grew up in a world where, you know, I was just beaten into submission,

43:03and then I developed all these masking techniques.

43:06Masking, I'm a master at that, absolutely.

43:10But inside, you're just torn up.

43:12And then it affects your personal relationships, it affects the people you live with.

43:16How you parent, you know?

43:18How you parent.

43:19Yeah.

43:20Yep, because, you know, you don't have that...

43:22There's a missing, fundamentally important piece that's missing from your way you go about

43:27the world.

43:28Who's ready for the last spicy ADHD opinion?

43:31Yes.

43:32Oh, yeah.

43:33ADHD drugs are over-prescribed.

43:36No.

43:37No?

43:38No.

43:39Well, I mean, if you need them, like, people misunderstand how ADHD drugs work.

43:45Like, my brain is deficient in something.

43:47That medication is bringing me up to a level where I'm on a par.

43:53Like, it's just giving me an ability to do things I need to do in my life, and it's not

43:59easy to get ADHD meds.

44:01And I don't...

44:02I think it's...

44:03For me, it was life-changing.

44:04It's not...

44:05It's not like the cure, but it allows you to just feel like you're on an even playing field.

44:10Then you can look at things like sleep, exercise, managing your life.

44:14I need it.

44:15My brain needs it.

44:16You wouldn't say that to someone with diabetes.

44:19Oh, insulin's over-prescribed.

44:21Yeah.

44:22What do you think, Rocca?

44:23I just think, generally, they are over-prescribed.

44:26Like, I'm mainly unmedicated.

44:29Everything changed when, you know, the last time I got out of jail in 2019, I decided to

44:33change my life.

44:34And I fought really hard to get my Dexys back because they had worked for me previously.

44:41And it took me six years of advocating for myself to finally get freaking Dexys back.

44:47And then I got on them for six months, and I hated it.

44:53I was, like, really heavily medicated on the Dexys.

44:56I was taking six pills four times a day, and I was, like...

45:03Six in total, or six at a time?

45:05No, six, four times a day.

45:07Wow.

45:08So I was, like, off my chops, and as much as I wanted to go up, the doctor was willing

45:14to go up, and it reminded me of being on drugs.

45:18Right.

45:19And because I fought so hard to get off drugs, I was like, no, this isn't for me.

45:24Christopher?

45:25Find what works for you.

45:26Well, like yourself, I'm also unmedicated.

45:29Personally, I don't take them because I don't want to have a repeat of my time on Ritalin.

45:33And what was that?

45:34It turned me into a zombie.

45:36Oh.

45:37Yeah.

45:38Okay.

45:39There's a whole chunk of my childhood that I just don't remember.

45:41At some point, I stop.

45:42Do you ever have moments where you reconsider that decision?

45:45Oh, 100%.

45:47Um, the meds make everything so much easier, but it also takes away from who I am, and I

45:56don't want to be anyone but myself.

45:59If it's, why should I have to fit into society?

46:04This is me.

46:05And it's chemicals that you're putting in your body.

46:07Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:08What is it about chemicals, generally?

46:10Just would prefer to live a healthier life.

46:13What do you mean, what is it about chemicals?

46:16Chemicals.

46:17The word.

46:18Where does your brain go when you hear chemicals?

46:20The brain is chemical.

46:22And we know there's a lot of stuff about, you know, but now about dopamine and its role

46:27in ADHD, essentially.

46:28I mean, it's a bit crude, but essentially we are dopamine deficient.

46:31And dopamine's got two functions.

46:33One is the want and two is the execution.

46:35We get the want enough, but we don't have enough for the execution.

46:38So the stimulant pushes that forward.

46:40So that's, it's a bit crude, but as a model, but it kind of makes sense.

46:45Andrew, do you ever feel like the drugs make you not you?

46:48They change something about your personality?

46:50Yeah, they make me like a neurotypical when I need to be.

46:52Oh, okay.

46:53That was a revelation for me.

46:55It was the first time I took Ritalin.

46:57It was just, oh, so that's what all these other people see.

47:02For me, like, I found it to be so positively life-changing that, like, God, it could make

47:07me grow an extra arm and I'd be like, yeah, all right, I'll put up with that.

47:11But like, if you've had a bad experience, well, yeah, but I'd probably pick the wrong one.

47:16I want to ask you all about the positives, right?

47:20Because there is this idea, and I suspect some of your eyes may roll, that ADHD can be a superpower.

47:27It absolutely can be.

47:29So, Christophe, when you're out in the wilderness and alone, how was ADHD helpful there?

47:37Anything that is a problem back at home was suddenly out of mind, so time seemed to not exist.

47:43Didn't have to mask.

47:44Didn't have to mask.

47:45That's interesting.

47:46You're all by yourself.

47:47It's you and the elements.

47:48There's nobody to put on the show for, right?

47:50Yeah.

47:51I could hyper-focus.

47:52All these things I'd be doing while I was back at home to try and blend in, I didn't have

47:56to do, so I suddenly had more energy.

47:58It was great.

47:59It was, I was in heaven.

48:01Does anyone else feel like it is a superpower?

48:04In my career, I worked in advertising, so, you know, and that's where lateral thinking is the currency for a lot of the business.

48:15Um, so that's a great, like, superpower.

48:17You know, going to your ad agencies and I can guarantee you 80% of the creative department

48:21are ADHD.

48:2280%?

48:23I reckon it's huge.

48:24I mean, that's the thing.

48:25It's that ability to lateral think.

48:26I mean, companies invest huge amounts of money putting neurotypicals in a room and trying

48:30to teach them lateral thinking, but for us, lateral thinking is the default.

48:33That's how we think.

48:34That's how we think.

48:35When I was trying to break into radio, I thought I was an idiot.

48:39I tried to get into radio school.

48:42They rejected me, so I drove to most of the regional radio stations in New South Wales on

48:48a road trip with, like, a really bad demo CD and a resume.

48:52And, um, yeah, Dubbo took pity on me in the end.

48:55And, like, if I didn't have ADHD, there's no way I would do something that ridiculous.

48:59I used to look at it as a superpower when I was younger.

49:02Um, and, like, I didn't have as much executive dysfunction as I do now.

49:07Um, but now it's definitely not a superpower.

49:11It's just pissing me off.

49:12Why can't I just wash a fucking dish for fuck's sake?

49:16Sorry, beep, beep, beep.

49:18But, you know, ADHD is fucking annoying.

49:21Fucking annoying.

49:22If there was a pill that would stop you from being ADHD, Andrew, would you take it?

49:29Oh, no way.

49:30Absolutely no way.

49:32I'm lucky, right?

49:33Super lucky.

49:34Not just did I, you know, an accident of birth and my privilege and all that,

49:38but I also landed in an environment where my ADHD is an asset.

49:43I would never give up the creative thing for anything.

49:46Not for anything.

49:47Very similar.

49:48You don't want to lose that part of you.

49:50It's like, I don't know who I am, but I know I am.

49:54If I have a problem, I'll do my best to find a solution.

49:58Um, I'm not a victim and I'm happy.

50:01Good on you.

50:03Emily?

50:04Hmm.

50:05If you could not have ADHD?

50:07I'm okay with having it.

50:09I just feel like I wish I'd known earlier.

50:13Dan?

50:14I'd take the pill to get rid of the ADHD if it existed.

50:18Um, I've already learnt how to hustle.

50:22Um, I can, you know, I can still keep that trait, that aspect, which kind of helps as well.

50:29Plus, um, I haven't, like, watched an entire movie for years.

50:32Oh.

50:33And I've heard there's some really good stuff out.

50:35Um, so...

50:37Rocket, your thoughts?

50:39If I could press a button, not have ADHD, then I probably would.

50:42I mean, I love my personality.

50:44I don't think not having ADHD would change that.

50:47Yep.

50:48But if you take the time to speak to me and that, I'm a fucking cool person.

50:52Um...

50:54And I'm funny and smart and...

50:57And I think I'd carry that over to not having ADHD, just lose that executive dysfunction.

51:03Well, I want to say, um, thank you for welcoming me into your club.

51:09But also, um, cheers to the eternal doom pile that awaits us all.

51:14Cheers.

51:15Cheers.

51:16Cheers.

51:17Cheers.

51:18Coming up next week, the fear for fat.

51:21Because fat is seen as, like, this big evil.

51:24It's like the villain.

51:25I know I'm fat.

51:26I have a mirror.

51:27Or they say, no, no, but you're pretty.

51:30And it's like, I didn't say I was ugly.

51:31Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:32Hang on a minute.

51:34And for the first time in my life, I speak to a doctor about my weight.

51:38When you're a fat kid, it never leaves you.

51:41There are some things that you've told me that make me slightly concerned.

51:47But could new weight loss drugs spell the end of fatness?

51:51There's been a staggering scientific breakthrough.

51:53I mean, it's changed my entire life.

51:55Sounds like a rich person's drug, like cocaine.

51:58Or will they supercharge fat phobia?

52:01I just, I love being fat.

52:03I love my fatness.

52:05I don't think that that's very healthy.

52:07That's next week on Tell Me What You Really Think.

52:10Shit.

52:11I love the fact that I can commit pressure over the sun.

52:16A silly bag.

52:18It doesn't matter that you why I want the game because I am so happy.

52:20I am so happy.

52:23I am so happy to guess what it did,

52:25I am so happy to go.

52:28And at your disposal, there was a shame.

52:30I am so happy to laugh,

52:31the sound of this.

52:33And remember, I just hope I pé夏 and connection from mind,

52:35got bronze книge,

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