Watch | Ram Madhav On RSS At 100: Adaptation, Ideology, And Hindu Rashtra

Name: Watch | Ram Madhav On RSS At 100: Adaptation, Ideology, And Hindu Rashtra
Uploaded: 2025-10-10T08:27:12+00:00
Duration: 44 min 58 s
Channel: OutlookIndia

00:00When RSS talks about Hindu Rashtra, it's not a factory that is going to build a Hindu Rashtra.

00:05No, no, of course not.

00:06What it says is, this country is essentially a Hindu nation.

00:12Hindu Rashtra is a kind of an awareness that one has to understand.

00:15India constitutionally will remain a secular country, constitutionally,

00:19because that is Hindu Rashtra. In Hindu Rashtra, every religion will have equal respect.

00:30Hi, welcome to Outlook Talks. We are with Mr. Ram Madhav, who doesn't need any introduction,

00:35but has been associated with the RSS, with the BJP and has been an author, runs the India Foundation

00:42and has recently come out with a book on the occasion of 100 years of RSS,

00:46the most interesting speeches by the Sarsangh Pracharas. And it's a very interestingly curated

00:54bunch of essays, which gives a lot of insights into how the RSS kind of functions. And it's very

00:59important to look at it in the context of RSS 100 years. And we are here to talk to him about

01:05how the RSS has survived for so long and has only grown and what the future holds for us.

01:12So the first question I had was, how did you come up with the idea of the book itself? You know,

01:17the speeches are very interesting. How did you get to curate them? How much time did it take?

01:22As you mentioned, this year happens to be the centenary year of the RSS. And RSS as an organization

01:30is very well known in the country. It is understood, misunderstood. The reason is RSS is a little

01:39difficult to understand, but very easy to misunderstand. That's what you say in your intro.

01:43Yes. The misunderstanding stems from a very important reason. The reason being, there is

01:51not much literature about what RSS stands for or what its leaders from time to time, what they

01:57articulated. That kind of literature is not available in the public domain. It's available within the

02:04organization for its followers. But if you look at the outside domain, the outside public always

02:10depended on the critics of RSS to understand RSS. So obviously, the understanding has largely been

02:16very low-sided, very incorrect. So we thought, why not present the views of RSS leaders right from the

02:22first chief of it, who founded the organization in 1925, to the current chief. RSS has had five chiefs

02:30in the last hundred years, I would say. Dr. Bhagavati is the sixth chief of RSS. So we brought together

02:37the main speeches of the six people, although there are hundreds of those speeches. We picked up a few

02:43of them. Then also together with these five, six people, we also selected some important thinker leaders

02:51of the RSS in its journey of hundred years. Try to present their views so that, you know, you can

02:56understand now RSS thought process from the horse's mouth, from first-hand account. You don't have to

03:02depend on somebody else writing about it and all that. I thought this will be a very useful collection

03:08of articles to understand RSS first-hand, from first-hand accounts. I'm sure it will be a very useful,

03:16you know, go-to reference book for all those who work on RSS. About the adaptability itself of the RSS,

03:22where the fundamentals remain intact, but the way RSS has moved, and it's not an easy feat for any

03:29organization to complete hundred years, you know. And over the years, obviously, you know,

03:34when you look at your own book, you talk about Gulwalkar, who was more spiritual and kind of then,

03:40but he was not, you also write, I mean, the speech that you quote, he was not against politics. And then

03:46obviously Deora's time comes and then, you know, things happen. So if you could elaborate a bit on

03:51the adaptability, particularly with regards to caste, because there was this speech which I read about

03:57the Verna Vaivasta, where it's not really critical of the caste system, where they also talk about the

04:02hereditary part of it, and how if somebody from the lower caste wants to get to the higher thing,

04:08they have to work hard, and then they get there. It's very flexible also, they say, right? I think

04:12it was Deora's speech. So if you could talk about the RSS and the caste, and how does that work,

04:18because this mandal kama mandal always comes in clash, and you know, as we would see in the recent Bihar

04:22elections also. So one very unique aspect of RSS, its 100 year journey is, probably there are a few

04:32other organizations in the country, or in the world for that matter, who have had such a long

04:39journey, such a long existence. But the uniqueness of RSS is that 100 also, it is growing.

04:46Yeah. Other organizations, probably after a few years, after a few decades, they stagnate,

04:52then there will be buildings, there will be some, you know, assets and all. They survive in that.

04:56You know, I give you the example of him in that political party, like the Communist Party of India,

05:00Yeah. Which began its journey in India just one year before the RSS was founded. Yeah.

05:05This Communist Party of India started working in India in 1924. RSS began.

05:09In fact, they are also completing 100 years this year. They completed last year.

05:12Last year. Yes, you are right. So 24-25 was their centenary, 25-26 is RSS centenary.

05:16And the Dravidian movement as well. But look at the RSS. At 100, it is today all over.

05:22Yeah. It has now emerged as the mainstream of the country and still growing. The reason is,

05:27RSS has kept itself not as any prisoner of a fixed ideology. Yes.

05:34It has had certain very solid idea. I don't deny that. But ideology is a different thing. Ideology

05:40means you fix certain framework. Yes. You want to live only in that framework.

05:45Communist Party had that ideology and it is stuck today because that ideology has become irrelevant.

05:50As a result, party also has become less relevant today. You talk about the ideas and ideologies.

05:54Yes. So with RSS, it never said that I am probably propagating any new ideology. Yeah.

06:00If you read from Dr. Edgar was the founder to number, I mean, those speeches which I presented in the book,

06:07they all say that our thought process is based on the ancient Hindu culture, history, experiences,

06:14civilization. So I am not saying anything new. I am only taking all those good aspects from ancient

06:21Hindu civilizational history and trying to make Hindu society aware of those things and create a larger unity.

06:27Now in that, RSS has tried to keep itself contemporaneous all the time. Because you don't have any shackles of ideology,

06:36you can be free. Yeah. So the leadership from time to time articulated that thought process

06:41relevant to the changing times. That has been the secret of RSS survival also and also growth also.

06:48Otherwise, the kind of adversities that RSS faced in its hundred years. If it is any other organization,

06:53it would have simply collapsed. Yeah. It would have perished. But RSS did not do that.

06:57When RSS survived, RSS grew, Hedgavar's view was more political. In fact, when Hedgavar started RSS,

07:04there was an oath that every RSS member used to take. That oath used to begin with the statement,

07:10Bharat ko swatantrakat. I mean, the very first mission of every RSS member at that time was to free India

07:17from the foreign yoke. From there, when Golvalkar added a spiritual, religious, spiritual dimension.

07:23Yes. Then when RSS became the third chief, Bala Sahib Devaras, he added a major social dimension.

07:30Yes. He was the one to first articulate very firmly that caste has outlived its utility.

07:36Yes. Now, Golvalkar had a slightly different view in the sense that he was not glorifying the present day

07:42caste system. But he was only trying to differentiate it from the ancient system of Varnas.

07:49Yeah. He used to say that Varna was an order created for the orderly life of the society.

07:56Don't blame that order. Probably the current caste system has become corrupted.

08:00Yeah. Because of certain evil things that have crept in.

08:03But Bala Sahib was more forthright. Bala Sahib was categorical that if untouchability was not a crime,

08:08nothing in this world was a crime. Then he went one step further to say that this caste system has

08:12outlived. You should go lock, stock and barrel. That was a major step forward for RSS. Then based on

08:20that idea, RSS launched its service activities among countries poor, backward, socially, economically

08:27backward, majorly socially backward, cost and all. So RSS has focused on service in 90s and early 2000s.

08:34Now with the advent of Bhagwat Sira in RSS, RSS has now started becoming more open as an organization.

08:45Yeah. The current chief is one person who has reached out to so many different people outside

08:53of the RSS spectrum in the last 15 years of his stewardship. So those new things that each chief

08:58has added free from any shackles of fixed ideological framework have helped this organization grow

09:05and helped this organization remain relevant even to this day, 21st century.

09:09And Mr. Bhagwat's speeches recently, he has been talking about caste, right? So where does it stand now?

09:15Because the caste system continues to be there. You know, I mean, if you look at incidents of violence in

09:20India, you see… So RSS has this view that caste as an institution has outlived its utility.

09:26Yes. It remains because, majorly because of politics.

09:31Yeah. And what about the reservations then? So on reservations, RSS's view has always been very clear

09:37that as long as the caste differences exist in our society, there can be any reason for it.

09:44Yeah. One major reason is politics. Of course, politics plays a big role in keeping caste alive in our

09:49society. But as long as that is there, there is some amount of support system, support mechanism

09:56needed for certain sections of the society. In that sense, reservations are a very important

10:02necessity today. It has to continue. And the other question was about women.

10:08The women's role in RSS. I mean, the Rashtriya Sevika Samarthi was founded in 1936.

10:12I think 2010 and 2019, they held all these meetings to make women more kind of empowered

10:19within the RSS and kind of looking at their role. Also, the Western feminism, there is actually

10:24one section that also talks about that. So where do women stand now? And how does RSS see women's role

10:31in the society? It has to be seen in two different components. One is the role in the organizational

10:38activity per se. So RSS has a definite kajya panthati, we call it, working mechanism. In that,

10:48because the shakhas happen in the morning time at six o'clock and all, women have been given a separate

10:53shakha. Now, that need not be seen as, you know, any kind of discrimination because, you know, even today,

11:00you have lions' club, but lions' ladies' club separately. Yeah. You have, if you see the games,

11:06boys and girls don't play cricket together, boys and girls don't play football together, they play

11:10separately. Yeah. Depending on activity, certain different activities have been created for men

11:15and women. But in terms of thought process and in terms of wider social activity, women have a big

11:22role in RSS activity today. In fact, RSS annual meetings, when they happen nowadays, even almost 15-20

11:29percent of the participants are women. Is that a way of adapting? That has, over the years, that has

11:34gradually increased and which is a good sign. Also, RSS view on the status of women is very forward-looking.

11:43RSS has always held that we have to emphasize on the family, not man and woman. When we say family,

11:51in that, woman has as much role, as much authority, as much say as the man. So, RSS has always believed in

12:01that system and one of the major programs that the RSS has undertaken now, post the 100 years, is what we

12:09call in our terminology as Kutumba Prabodhan. Yes. That is basically emphasizing on our promoting family

12:15values. In that important aspect is, woman should have equal say as a man. And what are those family

12:22values that kind of RSS focuses on? And whether it's also looking at gender roles that have existed

12:28throughout and have been challenged by Western feminism models, which RSS doesn't think works in

12:34India? The important reason being, Western feminist movements were the products of Western experience.

12:40Yes. That experience is the same in India. In India, if you civilizational, you see,

12:48women have always been accorded a place of dignity and honour. It's another matter. Certain evils have

12:55crept into our system. Because of that, women sometimes feel suffocated. We have a kind of a

13:02patriarchal mindset that has developed over certain decades or I would say centuries.

13:07When does the Manuspriti come? No. I don't know whether you guys read Manuspriti or only propagate

13:13Manuspriti. Manuspriti, do you know, gives four situations where a woman can divorce a man. Tell me

13:20which other religion has allowed that. It's easy to criticize Indian scriptures. But my point is,

13:25don't go into those things. Broadly speaking, society at the societal level, women have always been held

13:33in very high esteem. Look at all our major scriptures, whether it is a story of Ramayana,

13:39story of Mahabharata, stories of many others. Woman is presented as a very fiercely independent

13:45personality. What was Draupadi? I mean, if you ask any modern feminist, look at the personalities.

13:52Sita, a self-confident woman. So, our portrayal has always been about dignity and status for women.

14:00I agree with the suggestion that over the course of history, probably certain

14:04evils have crept in. That's where issues like Manuspriti come up because one sloka in Manuspriti

14:09is misunderstood. Nastri, Svatantriya, Marhati, one stranja. But you have to see it in a comprehension.

14:15He says, when in difficult situations, man has to always protect woman whenever necessary. If woman can

14:21protect herself, there is no need for man. Yeah. But where there is no such situation, man should protect

14:26her. That part, there can be a debate. Then if you don't like it, reject it. Absolutely. I mean,

14:31no scripture in Indian history or civilization is eternal except, you know, certain core beliefs.

14:38They can change. But same one who says what I said also. If there are four situations he explains,

14:45in those four situations, a woman can decide, I don't want to live with the man. That's also a part of

14:50a Manuspriti. So, but all those things apart, RSS view today is we have to accord that place of

14:57dignity and respect to women. Once you do that, all your laws will work. Otherwise, you have this

15:03stringent laws about women. Nirbhaya law is there, which actually now allows people to be hanged.

15:12That much of penal provisions are there. But did it stop assaults on women, atrocities against women?

15:18Problem is you have not taught the society that woman, as a human being, she needs to be respected.

15:25She needs to be accorded the place of dignity. And how is the RSS going to do that? Because

15:29recently guys have had those meetings and there's an increased emphasis and a lot of women are very

15:36active from the RSS in the Northeast as well. I think maybe probably if I'm not wrong, half of the

15:42women carders are over there. So just to say why that and what is, how are you going to do this?

15:48So this Kutumbha Prabhupadaan is one activity through which we, I mean the RSS would like to

15:55tell its, I mean people at large that this is how our family view should be. And there's a Mahila Samanwai.

16:01So those are all exclusives for women activities. There are several small groups which operate among the

16:06women. But on the question of gender I'm saying. Gender has no, you know, low and high. We cannot treat

16:16people on the base of gender as superior and inferior. That education will happen through

16:23Kutumbha Prabhupadaan. Now to encourage more and more women to come into various types of social

16:29activities. The RSS has been trying to encourage women to get into more activities. RSS has a number

16:36of sister organizations. If you see, see those organizations, a large number of women participate.

16:41For example, I'm in the political field. In BJP, you see a lot of women actively participating in

16:46political activity. There is Vijadi Parishat, RSS,

16:48A.B.B.B.P. Lots of women, lots of girls are active in that. So in all these organizations,

16:55there is a special effort to encourage more and more women to come forward. Not for the sake of RSS.

17:01They have equal role to play in the remaking of the country, rebuilding of our society, rebuilding of

17:09our nation. With that, RSS is encouraging women participation. Okay. And the other thing I

17:14I wanted to ask was, see when you say the rebuilding and the reimagination, how you would reimagine

17:20India as the Hindu Rashtra, you also quote the Supreme Court judges saying that Hinduism

17:26is a way of life and dharma is, I mean the whole thing, the debate on secularism for

17:31instance that they did not understand, I think one of the speeches mentions that also, the

17:35people did not understand the language so the translation of religion became dharma

17:41and dharma nirpeksh became secular, so why secularism is considered not so good?

17:47Look, what happened in our country unfortunately was, we took a very wrong meaning of secularism

17:55after independence, there were country Nehruvians and leftists, do you know that out of 27 European

18:03countries, more than a dozen western European countries in their constitutions declared their

18:09countries as Christian countries, in their constitution, we don't say that in our constitution, in

18:14our constitution we call ourselves secular and also socialist, but those countries call

18:18themselves very proudly following a particular religion, Christian religion, denominations,

18:24are they communal, are they anti-secular? No, every nation respects its own cultural, civilizational

18:31roots, they are sometimes represented through their religion, but in India what happened was,

18:37anything to do with Hindu, we started looking at it with a very negative prism, that is only

18:42after independence, remember, remember, that's why I said this was the fault of leaders like

18:48Nehruv, who tried to portray in generally religion as something negative but also especially Hindu

18:56as something parochial, but that was not the case during the independence movement, look at

19:01Tarvindu Khosh, look at Lokmanya Balaganga Dharthilak, even Mahatma Gandhi, of course Sabarkar, even

19:09Ambedkar, Ambedkar, if you read his writings, he used to openly say that there is no salvation

19:16for Indian society unless Hindu religion is reformed, one may say you are a political person, why

19:22do you bother about Hindu religion reform? No, they all thought that for India to progress,

19:26this reform is necessary, but when RSS also followed that same spirit, initially there

19:32was no issue, but after independence, suddenly RSS has been branded as communal and all that,

19:36so this whole thing stems from that misunderstanding about the word Hindu, that's why the current

19:41RSS chief has said, if you still have those mental blocks about Hindu, use Bharatiya, don't

19:46mind, but content should be same, what is that content? Today RSS says, we need five kinds

19:53of major transformations for which RSS works, that is what Hindurashtra means for RSS, one

19:59is we have to overcome these caste differences, so you have to build a sohar, a harmonious

20:05society. But they have always said that also RSS has been very Brahminical in the way it has

20:09functioned, if you look at most of the Pracharats and there was one, I think a memoir that came

20:14out from Meghwanshi, if I am not wrong, who wrote about his experience in the RSS and how

20:20he was treated, his Dalit from Rajasthan, I think. So how? You know, if by leadership one

20:26has to decide about an organization, do you know the Maoists always had the upper caste

20:31as a leader? No. So Maoist movement, do you say upper caste movement? No.

20:35The Communist Party, Politbureaus never had a single Muslim, do you know? No, no, I totally

20:40get it. Never had it. So it's a Hindu organization. These are all very ridiculous kinds.

20:43So in RSS, we have had people from all different social strata. For example, we don't talk about

20:53caste in Delhi. So since you asked that question, I am compelled to say this. One of the RSS

21:01chiefs was not a Brahmin. He came from another, but we don't see that way at all, whether you

21:05are a Brahmin or you are somebody else. And in RSS, there is a conscious effort today to ensure

21:11that every section of the society is represented in its hierarchy, in its leadership. So to call

21:17RSS a Brahminical organization today is a very frivolous thing. I mean, for the sake of criticism, one can do.

21:23But I am coming back to that, what is the current view of Hindutva or Hindurashtra concept is, you have to

21:29build a harmonious society. You have to be conscious of, you know, protecting your family values. When I say

21:35family values, today you have this challenge of wokeism. Today you challenge, you have the challenge of

21:41breaking up of marriages, breaking up of families. Anxiety, depression, all kinds of things.

21:45Leading to so many other things. And victims are the children again. So RSS wants to address this challenge.

21:51No, that is Hindutva RSS for RSS. So through Kutumbha Prabodha. Kutumbha Prabodha is intended for that. Then RSS is now focusing largely

21:58big time on environment, climate, we treat it as mother. So that is another very important aspect.

22:06Like that RSS, whatever new issues it has taken up today, RSS, very interestingly, you know, you hear the

22:15criticism that RSS never respects constitution of India. You know, one of the very funny countries.

22:20Very wrong, very wrong notion. RSS, in 1950, the constitution was promulgated. Golvalkar, the Guruji Golvalkar,

22:29gives a statement to all RSS members. Whatever may be our thinking about this constitution, it's our

22:36constitution. We all as citizens must respect it. That has been the stance from the beginning in RSS.

22:43Now, today, RSS is undertaking a new campaign to educate people about fundamental duties.

22:48Do you know, in our constitution, from 1976 onwards, we have an article called Article 51a,

22:55which talks about 10 fundamental duties. Can you tell those 10? Even I can't tell,

23:00because we never taught our people that these are our duties. Yeah, yeah.

23:03RSS is undertaking a campaign to educate people about duties. And what is it called, the campaign?

23:07It is called, Samajik Kartavya. Samajik Kartavya. Social responsibility, fundamental duties,

23:14which are... But why is it every time that we hear everything, you know, people say that RSS wants to

23:20change the constitution, you know, there was this secular thing firstly. And obviously, the abrogation

23:26and all of that, you were there. Funny thing is, those who criticize, who criticize that we want to

23:30change the constitution? Or there was, who changed the constitution for 100 times? You know, Indian

23:36constitution was amended 107 times so far. Assuming that BJP has done a few times. But who was...

23:44No, but why anybody doing it, why should it change so much? Look, the constitution, change

23:50constitution is a provision built into the constitution itself. Yeah. Ambedkar gave a very

23:55important speech while submitting the final draft on 25th November 1949. In that he says, he tells in

24:03the constitution assembly, look, we are building a constitution for the country, but none of us is

24:08an elected member. We were all just like that here as intellectuals and we built it. Who are we to bind

24:13future generations to what we thought as right for the country? So, let future generation, if they

24:19think that certain things have to change, let them decide. Ambedkar was so liberal. Nehru at that

24:24time was of the same opinion that the constitution when future generations want to change, let us change.

24:29So, there is a provision for changing it as per the requirement of the country. That's why we change it

24:34107 times now. So, RSS has not done it. But RSS has got a lot of influence, no, now.

24:40No, no. Well, if we had the influence, things are only limited to our organizational relationship.

24:47Beyond that, in governance, RSS never interferes. BJP, where we have our members, Swimsevaks, we have

24:55full faith in them. Whatever they do, they will do for the good of the country. Even if they want to

24:59change the constitution, they will do necessary consensus, they will build consensus and do that.

25:03But I'm coming to that point that changing the constitution is an inbuilt mechanism.

25:09We have full respect for this constitution. We have full faith in the wisdom of those who build

25:14the constitution like Dr. Ambedkar. And then you were talking about the RSS five-point agenda. So,

25:19two were remaining. So, no, already I mentioned about four or five of them. Essentially, what I'm trying

25:27to say is, RSS is a very forward-looking organization. So, what the country needs today, based on that,

25:35RSS builds its activity, that's what is the secret of its survival.

25:40Okay. And the other thing I wanted to ask was the two things. Mohan Bhavgat also said about three

25:45children. I think I met somebody in RSS in Bihar. I'm from there. And they were talking about 2.1, which I

25:52didn't understand really and how the 0.1 cannot be applied in children's case. Come on. See,

25:58demographics is a science. Demographics should be understood as science. Yeah. 2.1,

26:05it's called TFR. Yeah. Total Fertility Rate, meaning average a woman gives birth to 2.1,

26:13if that is the average we achieve in the country. It's average. Yeah.

26:17How does it apply? 2.1 means what? Every 10 families, there should be three children. Yeah.

26:23Nine families will have two children. Yeah. Then average is 2.1. Yeah. That's why I'm saying it's

26:28it's mathematics. It's science. Demography should be understood like that rather than thinking that

26:322.1 is a ridiculous number. No. It's an average. Today, what is happening is overall India's population

26:40growth rate has fallen below this. Yeah. Below 2.1, which is naturally the

26:47substitutional rate. If you are maintaining the 2.1, you will have enough younger people in the society.

26:53Now, it has come down to 1.9 in India. 1.9 may look okay today because you see

26:59a lot of population, a lot of traffic congestion everywhere. So, you want the population to come down.

27:03This, that, yeah. But what will happen 20 years hence is, you would have young people. Yeah.

27:07Which is a problem faced by a lot of nations actually right now.

27:10Today, China is facing, Japan is facing, all countries are facing. Yeah. European countries.

27:13You know China, after following this one child down for 30 years, today is insisting that you

27:18should have three children. Yeah.

27:19Their three children have become a necessity because already they have a huge shortage of youth population.

27:25So, 2.1, actually it is 2.19. If you can maintain 2.19 TFR, you have enough young people added to the

27:33population continuously. Kind of like, yeah. But that has the danger of population growing. Yeah.

27:37Because in one lifetime, there will be two generations. Yeah.

27:41That means you are adding four children. Yeah. Not two. So, it's a, it's a, it's a science. That's why I'm

27:46saying. So, in that sense, Bhagavad suggested that now it has come down to 1.9. So, you increase.

27:51In future, it may cause problems. So, some people may have three children. Yeah.

27:56Today, that number is very low. I mean, you don't come across in cities and all, people with three

28:02children. But, you know, that doesn't mean that, you know, we are advocating that everybody,

28:06every woman should have. It's a, it's a decision a family takes. Yeah. That is true. And one should

28:12never see women as child producing machines. Of course. That is a family decision, but it's an advice.

28:19Yes. And the other thing I wanted, you talked about religion and science. How do you blend

28:24it together in the RSS? Because, you know, it remains very religious. We follow Swami Vivekananda.

28:30Yes. Who said, whatever is unscientific, whatever has no scientific basis, cannot be sanctified as

28:40religion. When you are saying something, that's why I'm saying, even if Bhagavad Ji is talking about

28:46three children, there is a scientific reason behind it. And this is the situation population is facing.

28:52You think about 20 years, 30 years hence. Not today. So, that scientific approach is what is

28:59fundamental to Hindu religion always, right, from the beginning. In fact, Hindu religion is

29:03described always as jnanam vijnana sahitam. This jnan, this spiritual knowledge although,

29:11but is always supported by science, which is unscientific, has no place in this. So, we regard

29:16science as an important element, but with one rider. That sometimes there will be some aspect,

29:22where science is yet to reach. Yet to reach, yeah. But sometimes your spirituality can reach there.

29:27Your thought process can reach there. When HG Wells wrote novels about spacecraft and all,

29:32there were no spacecraft. No. And today there are. But 50 years later, there are spacecraft today.

29:37So, sometimes spirituality, religion can go farther than science. So, science need not reject it. But

29:45that doesn't mean religion and spirituality need not have any scientific basis. That also, we don't take any.

29:49RSS also considers and has said that Muslims are also Hindu, you know. So, patriotism is important and

29:55internationalism is important and whoever has that is a Hindu. Now, then why is there a problem when

30:02Muslims marry Hindu girls? Like this whole love jihad thing that kind of is happening. If they are Hindus,

30:09how do you kind of look at that? Look, as far as the first party is concerned, look, unlike in

30:15countries in Europe or elsewhere, in India, the Muslims and the Christians have not come from outside,

30:22except a microscopic minority who are the descendants of those Arabs who came during those 500-600 year

30:29period in our medieval history, 99.9% of Indian Muslims and Christians are from the very racial

30:38stock of India. At some point in history, they changed their religion. So, that's why we say you just

30:44change the way you practice, you follow your God. That's all. Your history doesn't change. Your other

30:51other civilizational roots don't change. In that sense, we all belong to same historical stock,

30:57civilizational stock. That's why we say Hindu, not necessarily religious sense. In religious sense,

31:01in India, full freedom. No, but they say Hindu is a born Hindu. Then, like,

31:06no, no. Let's say there was an instance in one of the speeches of the Peshwas, basically,

31:10when the people were returning after conversion. One of the speeches, I think Guruji's speech or Dr.

31:15Ji's speech, they say that they did not sprinkle Ganga gel on them. That would have made the

31:21Ghar Vapsi and they would have returned. So, that the Peshwas... So, there were times when there was

31:25resistance to it. Once you leave this religion, go into another religion, you become what they used to

31:32call as Malachsha. Yeah, Malachsha. These were all certain... So, you can do it. RSS has a program

31:39by which it encourages reconversion. And how many people have returned? They call it Paravaratan.

31:43I can't immediately give you any statistics about it, but I know that it is in hundreds of thousands.

31:49There are a lot of people left because of the caste issue as well. But it's not forced. It's not forced.

31:53It's not through allurement. It's not through any other thing. If voluntarily, one wants to come back to the

31:58ancient faith to which he belongs. That freedom should be there. Now, freedom of religion means

32:04what? We say that if I want to adopt another religion, I should have that freedom fair enough.

32:09But then, if I want to leave that religion and come back to my home religion, that is also freedom

32:13of religion. Yeah, that is true. So, it works both ways. Yeah. Somehow, for minority leaders,

32:17don't want it both ways. They only want it one way. Yeah. A Hindu should become a Christian or a Muslim,

32:22that freedom is required. But he cannot go back. Not return. It doesn't work that way. If it is freedom,

32:27freedom for both sides. But in both cases, it should not be through fraud. It should not be through

32:31allurement. It should not be through coercion. You cannot adopt these things. So, that is where

32:38RSS family believes that we are all culturally one stock. We call it Hindu. You call it Bharatiya.

32:44But content should be that, okay, I respect this cultural, civil educational thing. In that sense,

32:50sometimes what happens is India is a very diverse society, remember? Yes.

32:53You mentioned about inter-religious marriages leading to, you know, issues like Law Jihad.

32:59Don't inter-caste marriages lead to tensions in our country? Always.

33:02India has a very peculiar... But I think one of the speeches also said that inter-caste marriages

33:05should be kind of promoted. Exactly. So, any of these things have to be always handled very carefully.

33:12If there is any feeling that something is happening as a conspiracy, then people react.

33:19For example, Law Jihad you mentioned. Do you know who raised this Law Jihad issue in Kerala? No Hindu

33:24organization. It was raised by Christian organization. It was the Christians who said that our

33:29girls are being, you know, allured into marriages by other religious people. So,

33:36these issues, that's why you understand, there is always full freedom and full sanction for genuine

33:44inter-faith, inter-caste marriages. In fact, we will be very open to those things which are

33:49out of consciousness they happen. Yeah. You take the case of some leaders in our party.

33:55They have, if he is a Muslim, he has a Hindu wife. If he is a Hindu, he has a Muslim wife. Vice versa.

33:59Vice versa. Muslim husband, Hindu wife, Hindu husband, Muslim wife. So,

34:03that is never objected to. And they are important leaders in our party. That is not objected. But,

34:07if something is seen as happening as a conspiracy, then there will be some reaction.

34:13Those things we have to treat very cautiously in India. These are sensitive issues.

34:17Sensitive issues. And the last thing is about the BJP and the RSS relationship. Over the years,

34:23100 years and now that the BJP has been in power for a long time and Narendra Modi himself,

34:28the Prime Minister was a Prachara. Where does it stand now? Where does it go from here? And,

34:33you know, everybody is getting old. There was a thing about retirement also. But, I think,

34:40then Mr. Bhagwat came and said that we are lifelong. But, you know, there are medical issues also,

34:46and age-related issues. But, where does it go from here? Because there is a lot of populism also that

34:51has come in. I mean, RSS was a very private kind of an organization over the years, but has now become,

34:57as you said, very open. So, where do we go from here? RSS relationship with politics is a very

35:04interesting subject. You know, for the first 25 years, if you take 25 years as one unit in RSS's

35:11100-year history, first 25 years, it was during the British rule. It was facing problems from the

35:18British government and all that. And, once India became independent, it faced a major challenge from

35:24the independent Indian government in the form of a wrong accusation of involvement in Gandhi's murder.

35:30Until then, RSS never had any idea of anything to do with politics. Yeah, it was banned several

35:35times, you know. So, when that ban happened, so after first 25 years, it was first time that there

35:41was a view within RSS, some sections, that we also need to have a political voice. Yeah. But, RSS was very

35:47clear that we should not become any political wing, but some of our members can go and become active in

35:53politics. That's how Barthi Jansang was born. That's how you got into it. 1950, 25 years after RSS was born,

35:59some sections have joined the political activity. Yeah. After 50 years of RSS, like second 25 years

36:05have ended, Jansang RSS became so strong, another ban happened. Yeah. All of them were arrested and put

36:12in jails. That time, the RSS decided that this BJP can be, Jansang can be dissolved. They should join

36:19Janata Party. Yeah. Janata Party did not last long. No. BJP was formed. 25 years after that,

36:27BJP became the ruling party in 2000. Yeah. Yeah. When the RSS celebrated 75 years, the political

36:33activists are the ruling party. Vajpayee was the Prime Minister. Yeah. Yeah. RSS has reached 100.

36:38a strong RSS man is today a global leader. Yeah. Look at RSS journey in politics. Yeah. It's quite interesting.

36:44But from 1925 to 2025, RSS has kept itself aloof from day-to-day politics. That is a perfect reality.

36:55But it seems like RSS is everywhere now. RSS members are everywhere. That is the story of RSS 100 year growth.

37:01RSS 100 year growth. Yeah. But all these, for instance, whatever they are doing in politics,

37:06and other things, they are all independent. They run their activities. And that question about

37:12what will happen to them. It's, I mean, age. Do you ever ask what will happen, when will my father die?

37:19You won't ask that question. I'm not saying die. I'm saying, oh, he's there, he's your father,

37:23he's running your organization, he's getting all the good. No, but young people also should come.

37:28That's precisely what I'm saying. Who is stopping young people? Young people are everywhere. You know,

37:34today, if you take BJP, the kind of young chief ministers that BJP has got today, the other parties

37:41don't have. No, no, they should also correct their situation. So, we have better, younger leadership

37:45in the country than all other parties. Yeah. Otherwise, Jendri will come for everyone.

37:48So, even in RSS today, I wrote in one of my articles. Today, RSS provincial level

37:54are in the age group of 30 to 40. Yeah. No, I met some of them, actually.

37:58Yes, yes. RSS, general organizers are 40 to 50. National organizers, most of them are between

38:0445 and 60. So, RSS has ensured that younger leadership takes over and it's a process.

38:09That doesn't mean all seniors should go. No, no, they should not go. They will be there.

38:13They will be there. They play their role. They also need rest. No, I mean.

38:15Yeah, younger leadership has prominent responsibilities and roles in RSS.

38:18And will we ever see a Mahila RSS chief ever or a Muslim? Because in Kashmir and all,

38:24a lot of shakhas are run by Muslims as well. So, is there?

38:28I mean, how is the future? What is in store for is in future? I obviously can't predict.

38:36But I can only again repeat that. We don't see it from that prism at all. Whether you are a Muslim,

38:42or a Hindu or who is becoming. You have to be qualified to be there in that position.

38:47Yeah. And what is that qualification? That qualification is that complete

38:51dedication, complete understanding of the RSS philosophy, RSS view,

38:56complete understanding of Indian society. You are now, RSS is in a position where

39:00its world is taken seriously by the entire society. Yeah, yeah.

39:03Not just the followers who go to shakha. That is true.

39:06In fact, they are only 10%. Yeah. 90% of those who support RSS are outside the shakha. Yeah,

39:10that is true. So, we need people with that kind of understanding,

39:14then they will automatically rise in the hierarchy. Maybe what you are suggesting will also be a reality

39:19one day. And what does a Hindu Rashtra look like? Well, what will it look like?

39:24Are we already one or there are still issues? Look, when RSS talks about Hindu Rashtra,

39:30it's not a factory that is going to build a Hindu Rashtra. No, no, of course not.

39:33What it says is, this country is essentially a Hindu nation. If it is not a Hindu nation, Gandhi would

39:42not have invoked Raghupad Rakhav Rajaram in independence movement. Tilak would not have invoked,

39:47you know, Ganesh Utsavs and Chattopas Shivaji's coronation ceremonies for, you know,

39:53rousing that patriotic sentiment in this society because they know that this society is a cultural

39:58entity. It is not just a political entity. It's not a political unit. It's a cultural unit.

40:03So, in that sense, Hindu Rashtra is a kind of an awareness that one has to understand.

40:07It's not a, you know, some people ask me, why not you declare constitutionally India is a Hindu Rashtra?

40:13I say, no, India constitutionally will remain a secular country constitutionally,

40:18because that is Hindu Rashtra. In Hindu Rashtra, every religion will have equal respect.

40:24Absolute religious freedom, given those three conditions, no coercion, no deceit,

40:28no fraud, no allurement, and that's freedom. So, that is the kind of Hindu Rashtra that one has to,

40:36that realization has to happen in the society, not something which is a constitutional status

40:41or something we declare. In that Hindu Rashtra, what I said was, what the RSS wants today is complete

40:47harmony, non-bevisive kind of political establishment. Climate should be good,

40:51Swajeshibhav should be there. I mean, we have to build an economy, which is self-related economy.

40:56That is one of the programs. And a good family values should be encouraged in the society.

41:01That kind of a society. That is Hindu Rashtra. That is the religion of Hindu Rashtra.

41:05And where do Adivasis fit in the Hindu Rashtra?

41:07Absolutely, very integral part of it. Call them one Vasi.

41:10Yes, you know, we sometimes don't understand these words like Adivashis.

41:16Everybody is Adivashis. I mean, those who have been living, they have had their...

41:20That way we all are Africans, no? Oh, so then nobody is Adivashis here. Everybody came from

41:26somewhere else. I mean, if you go by the western archaeological or western understanding of

41:31human existence, they all came from Africa. That is their understanding. So, this whole

41:36artificial debate, somebody is Adivashis, somebody has come from outside is a very wrong understanding

41:40of our society. We are all Adivashis. There are one Vasis who live in tribal area. There are

41:45Gram Vasis who live in rural area. They are Shair Vasis who live in urban area, Nagar Vasis.

41:49We all together constitute in that, yes, the interest when we talk about environment, we see

41:55the Adivashis or one Vasis. Yeah. To be the most integral to that discourse. Yeah.

42:00It is they who should decide how we should manage our forests. That's RSS view. You know,

42:05sometimes women think only Naxos think that way. No, RSS, sincerely thing.

42:09All this mining and all is happening. There has to be a balance. Yeah.

42:14You cannot become environmental fundamentalist. No, no, no. I mean, you say that now that I'm an

42:19environmental activist, no development should happen. That's also not correct. Yeah.

42:22We have to build a balance where you need some developmental activity to happen.

42:27That has to happen while not harming the overall environment and those who are depending on that

42:34environmental situation. Like you said, one Vasis, their livelihoods, their survival, their culture,

42:40their lifestyle, all that should be protected. Yeah. How is the RSS prepared to, let's say,

42:45tackle the forces of aspiration, globalization, you know, capitalism for instance. That's a big one

42:51as well. There are a lot of these other things that are, quote, unquote corrupting. Look, these are all

42:55catch words. I tell you why I'm telling you. I don't know how much you understand capitalism.

43:00Yeah. Capitalism has undergone so many changes. Yeah, yeah. You know, capitalism as how Karl Marx

43:06quoted. Yes, yes. Or Adam Smith articulated. That capitalism and 21st century capitalism are very

43:12different. Very different. Do you know, World Economic Forum has come out with the latest paper.

43:16It says, now, the kind of capitalism that is needed in this world is stakeholder capitalism. Yeah.

43:24What is stakeholder capitalism? Do you know what Gandhi used to say, Dharmakartrutva. That is stakeholder

43:29capitalism. World Economic Forum is saying this. It is saying, capitalists cannot no longer now

43:35only worry about their shareholders. Yeah. But they have to worry about stakeholders. Stakeholder

43:40means what they say, entire society, community, people, everything. But that is what we have been

43:46saying in this country. Economics should follow certain dharma. Dharma, that is, you cannot,

43:51your economics cannot be divorced from the interest of the society. You can't harm people, exploit people.

43:58That is what, it is already happening. It will happen. See, that is what I am saying. We have

44:04those very, very well thought out principles about these things. We borrow these words from outside,

44:11but we never give that due recognition to our own, our own ideas, our own thought. As I said,

44:17stakeholder capitalism is nothing but Dharmakartrutva Mahatma Gandhi. And will that be

44:22implemented? Absolutely, absolutely. And what's your plan now after this book and you are running the

44:28India Foundation for sure, more political role. Of course, and I am also a part of the BJP.

44:33Yeah, of course. And abrogation was necessary or you, what do you think? Whichever? The Kashmir,

44:40the Article 370. Oh, it was necessary. It was overdue since 1950s and it was done at an appropriate time.

44:48Thank you so much for talking to us. It was a extreme pleasure and thank you for writing this book.

Watch | Ram Madhav On RSS At 100: Adaptation, Ideology, And Hindu Rashtra

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