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00:00Hi Michael. Good morning. Good evening. Good evening. How are you? I'm very good. Thank you.
00:07How are you? So nice to meet you. It is very nice to meet you. Actually, I'm really glad. So
00:12what's up? I mean, just I know a bit about you. Thanks to Guillaume. Of course, there is so much
00:21I don't know. I know you've been shooting and I know that you've been doing many short dramas,
00:28fictions, and that you really like it, that you're passionate about it. But I would like to
00:34know more about this passion, where it comes from, and when it started, because actually it's quite
00:40recent, right? Well, yes, the verticals, that's what we call them here. You call them that as well,
00:47yes? The verticals. Yes, but actually we also use the Chinese term, Duan Zhu. We also like to use
00:54Chinese term. And I think you also like it, right? I love it. I love it. It just sounds so,
01:02it makes it sound so beautiful and so exotic and wonderful. But that's where, you know,
01:06all these things started in China a few years ago during the pandemic, during COVID. And
01:14I have been an actor my entire life. I started working as a child actor when I was a very,
01:20very, very tiny little person. And I'm from New York City. So again, I started at a very young age
01:29doing movies and TVs and shows. And I did a ton of commercials. And I did like, you know,
01:34child modeling for like catalogs and magazines and stuff like that. Lots of theater. But now,
01:42of course, many, many, many, many years later, I live in Los Angeles. And, and of course, during,
01:49as the story goes, during COVID, you know, the whole industry shut down, the film and TV industry
01:57shut down, as did everything else, right? So then this, this thing that we now call verticals has,
02:04you know, all of a sudden became very popular in China during COVID. And then they started doing
02:09them here. So I got involved, I think I did my first one, it was, it's been at least two years now
02:15that I have been doing working in what we call the vertical space. And which I think is very funny.
02:24So you were one of the first ones, right? Because I think it's not that old. So you were among the
02:30first to try? I think I was, I was definitely in sort of the first, I think they started to work
02:38here in the States, maybe the late 2023, mid to late 2023. And I believe I did my first one
02:47in either late 2023 or early January 2024, something like that. So and I actually just counted them,
02:57somebody else asked me this question the other day, I just counted them. And right now I have done
03:0231 verticals. 31 verticals? 31 verticals. It's huge. Yeah. I mean, it's great. It's great to,
03:13you know, my landlord loves that I'm able to pay the rent. And, and I'm able to buy food, which is,
03:20you know, also great. I love that because I love to eat. So yeah, so for the last two years,
03:26pretty much all of my work has come from the vertical space, which is, which is great. And
03:34I've had a tremendous time doing them all like super, super fun. And I have met great people. And
03:42I have been able to do some, some great work, some ridiculous work and some great work. But overall,
03:51it's been, I don't know, it's been a real joy to be able to do it. So yeah. And now,
03:58now they're everywhere, right? I mean, you're shooting them in France, they shoot, I just found
04:02out that they're shooting a whole bunch of them in London, in the Ukraine, of course, China still,
04:07I just was offered a job. I just was offered a job to shoot a vertical in, in Bogota, Colombia.
04:16Also in Mexico City, I hear like, I mean, it's really Oh, and Istanbul, Istanbul is huge. So yeah,
04:21it's all over the place now. Yeah, I think it's really spreading all over the world. It's becoming
04:27very, very big. But what I want also to understand because you told me that you are an actor for
04:33forever. Yes, yes. I mean, how is it, you know, to be in cinema, you know, and going from
04:40long movies to verticals and short drama? I mean, how is it like?
04:47Essentially, it's exactly the same thing. But you're doing it in like a quarter of the time.
04:54Let's say you have, you know, a month or two months to shoot a feature length film,
04:59which let's say is 90 minutes, 90 minute film, or an hour and 45 minute film.
05:07Verticals, as you know, I'm sure, we basically have like, you know, six or seven days to shoot
05:12the same amount of stuff. Like a vertical will, you know, you can watch it on your phone, and
05:17it's night, it ends up being 90 minutes or something like that. But we have to shoot it. And
05:22usually it's about seven days. So so the real difference is that everything is incredibly
05:31fast, you have to do everything just so fast, you don't have a moment to breathe, you know,
05:38you maybe get four minutes to go run to the bathroom. Like, it's just absolutely an insane
05:45amount of work in a very short period of time. So and they're long, long days, it's exhausting,
05:51minimum 12 hour days, sometimes 14, sometimes 16 hours a day. So that's, I mean, that's honestly
05:58just the only difference really is that you just everything goes so fast. And of course,
06:04instead of shooting horizontally, you're shooting vertically. But that, you know, they do that,
06:10they take care of that stuff, the crew takes care of that, not me. But in every other way,
06:15it's, it's, it's the same. Many, many years ago, in New York City, I worked on a soap opera.
06:22And, and that was similar in that you got a tremendous amount of dialogue. And, and you had
06:30to learn it quick. Because I mean, they shot one episode a day. And one episode was an hour long,
06:36and you had to basically shoot it in one day. So that was similar as far as so I was happy that I was
06:43able to do that, because that was great training. Because here, I will get a script, I will get my,
06:50you know, my script, my sides, they call them for the next day, and I have to, you know, learn whatever
06:5710, 12, 15 pages of dialogue by the next morning. So, okay, because you receive the script one day
07:05before, not more. Yes, right. Yeah, usually the night before, or yeah, usually the night before,
07:11I will get what we call the sides, which is just the script for what we are shooting that day. And,
07:17you know, and sometimes you get it late, you know, let's say if I have a call, if I have to be on set
07:23at seven in the morning, I will get the I will get the sides that seven o'clock the night before.
07:31So they usually give you 12 hours, but eight of those hours, hopefully I'm sleeping.
07:35Sure. Maybe, maybe, hopefully, hopefully. But I mean, you told me that you made 31, right? 31
07:45verticals. Yes. And I'm wondering, you know, about the style, about the genre. Are they alike? Do you
07:54our favorite ones? Do you think also the verticals, as let's say, that they have, let's say, different
08:03stories, characters? I mean, how would you name that? And how can you describe also the, let's say,
08:12trend in your job, and maybe how it's going to be in the future? Because you're into it, so you
08:20you, you should know better than us. And maybe you can tell us, you know, in the States and in LA,
08:26how it is, and how you think things are going forward.
08:30Yeah, I can absolutely speak to that. Because the overwhelming majority of roles that I play,
08:39it's, it's, up until very recently, there's has been a formula. And it has pretty much stayed the
08:48same. It's been successful. So it hasn't changed. I usually play the same. There are one of two roles
08:59that I that I play, basically, either I am the really mean spirited, cruel, abusive, old, rich
09:07billionaire, CEO of a company who, you know, who wants an heir and who wants his son to like, give him a,
09:17give him an heir and get married, blah, blah, blah. So I'm usually very angry, old, cruel, and abusive
09:27physically and verbally. And but then the other role that I tend to that I also play, I do one of two
09:35things is, I have a I have a very long background in comedy. So so I also do a lot of comedic roles,
09:46like super over the top roles that are things like flamboyant hairdressers, or, you know, fashion
09:56designers, or, you know, yeah. And so so I do one of those two things, basically, that's how that's
10:04sort of how they see me. And the genre, I mean, the the verticals, again, like I said, have been
10:10basically following this sort of very successful formula for a while now. Up until recently,
10:19recently, there has started to be a change, a lot of the a lot of the productions, a lot of the apps
10:27that we're on are starting to change and sort of starting to like broaden, broaden their horizons a
10:35little bit and do different kinds of different kinds of stories. Certainly stories, we have all
10:43been, you know, fighting for this stories that are where, where we are less abusive towards women.
10:52You know, because if you've seen these things, I'm sure you have a lot of them. It's hard to find a
10:58vertical where a woman doesn't get slapped in the face. So very much like that. So we the actors
11:08certainly have been trying very hard to see if we can sort of like get away from that. Every time I
11:13get a job now, I look through the script. And if I see something like that in the script, I always go
11:18and talk to them, I say, Is there any way we could change this is do I have to do this? Do I have to say
11:23this very horrible word to her? Do I you know that stuff? And we're finding that the that the response
11:31has been positive that they that they are allowing us to move away from that somewhat. And also the
11:39stories are starting to be different are starting to open up. There are now you can actually find some
11:48verticals where there is not a love story, which I think is great, right?
11:53Because it began with romance, right? To also talk about where it comes from, also coming from web
12:01novels, right? With let's say, female audience. So love stories, stereotyped stories. And now it's
12:10tending to more. Yeah, more different stories, which is good, I think, right?
12:15Yeah, I think it's great. More just more real life stuff like, and just and they're exploring
12:22different, different genres. I had mentioned to you guys that, you know, I just finished shooting
12:30this one called Game of Choice. Right? Yes. And I don't know if you know, if you got any of the
12:37information about it. But it's very, it's like, it is the most different vertical. It's from any other
12:44vertical that I've done so far. All of us, all of us in the cast felt like we were really doing
12:50something very different, something very interesting. No love, no romance. Game of choice.
13:00Can you just teach us the story and maybe your character?
13:05Yes. So if anyone out there watching or if you have ever seen Squid Games,
13:15Squid Games, the the show on Netflix, it's similar to Squid Games and in that a group of people have
13:22are sort of being forced to sort of play this game. And this one is called Game of Choice. And
13:28and, and it's really all about like the, the choices one is forced to make under dire circumstances and
13:39how, how people react to, to certain things. It was a very interesting script. It was a very emotional,
13:50very violent, actually. There's a, we spent, we spent, you know, I think it was 17 days on this
13:59one or something like that. Lots of stunts. My whole body got bruised. I got thrown around and
14:06there's, you know, there's guns and there's knives and there's things happening all over the place.
14:11Huge budget. It was the biggest budget that I've worked on, on a vertical so far.
14:15Can you tell us more about, you know, uh, let's say a figure so that we can maybe just,
14:20uh, or is it like, uh, it's not something that's public?
14:26I don't know. I don't think it's a secret. It was a huge budget. I would, I would venture to say
14:31that it was at least half a million dollars, um, to shoot, to shoot this vertical, which for verticals,
14:37I think is pretty big. Uh, and it might've even been more, I don't know. I mean, we had a gigantic
14:42crew again, tons of stunts, tons of, uh, very difficult setups, huge cameras. Um,
14:51and, and again, like a long, uh, a long shoot. I think it, in total, it came to 17 days, which again,
14:58is double as you used to have more than double. Yeah. And so, um, it's, um, again, the story is
15:09very exciting. It's very interesting. There are, I want to say one, two, three, four, five, six,
15:16maybe six or seven, uh, of us who are sort of an ensemble, like in the main, the main, the lead
15:22characters in the show. And we are all forced to, and I'm not going to tell you why we are forced,
15:28but we are all forced to, um, to, to play this game, the game of choice. And, uh, and I guess like
15:35squid games, you'll have to watch to see like who survives and who gets to the next game and to the
15:41next game and to the next game and so on and so on. Um, and I got to play a really interesting
15:49character. Again, what was so nice about this one, which was different from sort of the stereotypical
15:55roles that we've been playing in verticals is that my character in this, in game of choice had a real,
16:00um, a real arc, like really what, you know, started a journey went from a all the way to Z
16:07and ended up sort of a, um, a different person than how he began. And, uh, and the choices that
16:15he made and, and why he made certain choices and what he ended up doing in order to survive the good
16:21things and the bad things. Um, it was all really interesting. I joked the other day, uh, in an
16:26interview that it was almost, it was almost, uh, Shakespearean, the, um, the, the, the,
16:35the humanity of this guy. He's a priest. I'm playing a priest. Um, and I almost don't want to tell you
16:43anything more about him. Um, because I don't, I don't want to give anything away. I don't want to like
16:51have you any clue about, about this spiritual guy. He is a priest. He's a, he's a Catholic priest who
17:00has lots of secrets. Let's just say that lots of secrets that, that all sort of come out in the
17:09process of, of playing this game with the other people. Um, and we had a, we had a, a great director
17:16and a great crew and I worked with really great actors. It was a, um, it was a really fun, interesting,
17:24and absolutely exhausting shoot. And hopefully it'll be out sometime this month. We think
17:29hopefully it will premiere sometime in September. We don't, I don't have any specifics on that yet,
17:36but that's my hope. That's what they, they keep sort of hinting at that. Yeah.
17:39But the great thing about it, for sure, of course. Uh, but the great thing about it,
17:47about the whole process was that they really went into this wanting very much to do something
17:52absolutely different, something that no one had done in a vertical before, uh, make it,
17:58they really went out of their way to make it sort of the biggest and grandest and, and, and best and
18:04most exciting and most interesting vertical, again, something that people have not seen in this
18:11vertical space that we live in. Sorry about that. Um, so I'm excited about it. I, I, and I think
18:19when it comes out, you know, when it comes out, hopefully we'll be doing a ton of publicity because
18:25we want everybody to watch it. And, um, uh, and yeah, but, but, and hopefully when it comes out,
18:34it does really well so that the other apps and the other production companies out there see it and
18:40go, Oh, okay. Yes. Now we have proof that we can, we can expand this. We can do something different.
18:47We can try, like, I have been trying to get them to do a, um, uh, a vertical musical.
18:53Like I desperately want to be in a vertical musical. Um, I think it would be great.
19:00Right. And, uh, so any, if it's successful, you know, people do what they, what they think
19:06is successful, of course, what's going to make them money. Um, and so if they are able to, uh,
19:11if this is able to be successful and make money that other companies will see this, other apps will
19:15see this and think, Oh, we can do something different. We can do something bigger. We can
19:19do something more interesting. We don't have to stick with this same old formula that we've been using.
19:23Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a very good science verticals because we also need, uh, more than
19:29what we used to have. We need more differences. As you said, we need more stories, uh, or people
19:35are going to get bored. Right. Absolutely. I mean, again, these verticals have, have been very
19:41successful so far. People seem to like them, but, uh, but there is, you know, there is that factor.
19:48Like after a while, people are going to be, people are going to be bored and they're going to like, Oh
19:51God, I've seen this a hundred times. So let's do something different. I hope so.
19:57And do you think that there is more flexibility, uh, with the crew and with the teams? Because you
20:02said that sometimes you can, you know, go to the director or go, um, to the writers and maybe
20:08tell them, okay, can we change that? Maybe that would be a bit better not to go towards the
20:14stereotypes. So do you think that there is, let's say a space for creativity, for actors also to,
20:20to tell what they would like to see on screen?
20:23I think that it is getting better. Um, I think now at this point, um, the, the companies,
20:32the apps, the producers, all that are, are becoming more open to, uh, change open to suggestions.
20:40I think it's because there are a lot of us actors who have been doing this pretty much
20:45since the beginning. Uh, in fact, we just had our, uh, for, uh, the very, the first annual, uh, vertical
20:51Verticon, like Vertfest, uh, which was just this past weekend where just a whole bunch of us actors
20:58participated in different panel panels and one-on-ones meet and greets and stuff like that. So,
21:04so, so there are a lot of us who have been with this from the beginning, since it came to the States
21:10and who are popular, I guess. And, and so, because I guess we're popular, we have been able to, uh,
21:20make suggestions to try to steer things in a different direction. And the, and the, uh, production,
21:26it seems to be moving more towards being open to suggestions, being open to change, being open to
21:35listening to us and, uh, and getting feedback from us. And that was, you know, that was definitely
21:40not the way it was in the week in the beginning, but now I think we're definitely moving in that
21:44direction for sure. Yeah. And this festival, I mean, uh, how long, um, when was it created?
21:51Is it recent? It was just this past weekend. Uh, today is Wednesday. So it was this past
21:57Saturday and Sunday. It was two days and, uh, the first annual, uh, Vertfest, it was called the
22:04Vertfest. And, uh, and so all of, yeah, a whole bunch of us act vertical, vertical actors, um,
22:11did panels. We talked, I did, uh, I did a panel talking about this show game of choice. Um,
22:17we also did, uh, meet and greets with some of the fans. I did that. Um, and it was fun. It was
22:23great to meet the fans. It was great to answer questions. It was great to talk to people. Um,
22:27and it was also great to just sort of get the word out there about verticals and, and about
22:34what this world is that we, that we live in now. And I, I only think that it's going to get bigger.
22:39Uh, you'd ask this. I, I think the, uh, I think the future is bright for, for this space that we're
22:48in, uh, because, uh, there are many reasons for this, but I also think that, you know, the industry,
22:55the film and TV industry, especially here in Los Angeles has been really difficult the, the last few
23:02years, you know, because of COVID. And then of course there was a writer's strike and then there was
23:06a SAG strike as actors went on strike. And then, and then, you know, I, last year we had all these,
23:12um, uh, huge fires in Pacific Palisades, which really, um, I think really hurt the industry
23:19because a lot of industry people lived there and lost everything. So there are a lot of reasons for
23:24why it is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, but I think, I think it is only going to continue,
23:30uh, in that vein. I think it's only going to get bigger. The, uh, some of the major studios,
23:37are now looking at verticals. I think Hulu is, is, is looking at verticals and I think,
23:41and Disney as well. So. True. Yeah. Yeah. And you think also the, the reputation of, of verticals
23:50is, is getting better because I know that for people from Hollywood or let's say real cinemas,
23:57they may say, you know, it's low budget stereotype stories. So do you think it's changing? Can you see
24:02people moving towards this? Do you see actors changing their minds and saying, maybe I'm
24:07going to try verticals because I think that some people used to say, you know, this is kind of,
24:14you know, um, lame or maybe, you know, not what you want to aim at. So do you think it's changing?
24:21Do you feel. I do. I, I absolutely do for a couple of reasons. Uh, one, because I think, uh,
24:28absolutely the quality has gotten better and better and better. Um, uh, and so as soon as,
24:34and people see that, and I think, you know, if they look at something from, you know,
24:382023 and they look at something from 2025, they're going to see, they're going to see a vast difference.
24:43Um, and, uh, and then, and think, oh yeah, this is absolutely something that I could do.
24:49And, and also to be honest, uh, be like I said, the, the way the industry is now, especially in Los
24:55Angeles, uh, there's not a whole lot of work here anymore. So eventually if you want to work as an
25:04actor, you're going to do this and you're gonna, um, and I feel like I've been very lucky. I've been
25:10very lucky, uh, to get in pretty much at the beginning, uh, and have sort of established myself
25:17here. Um, so yeah, I, and like we were saying earlier, now it's all over the place. How exciting
25:23is it for us to be able to go to France and shoot a vertical or to go to London and shoot a vertical or
25:27to go to, um, uh, you know, countries, Mexico, Bogota, Colombia, the Ukraine,
25:33the Ukraine, they shoot Lithuania. I've had friends who have actors who have gone all over
25:38the world to shoot these things. So besides it just being, um, financially great, uh, it's also
25:45exciting. How exciting is it to travel the world and, and be an actor, right?
25:50Yeah. You told us you were attracted to coming to Europe. Would you like to shoot, uh, in Europe
25:57with European crews?
25:58Very much so. I actually, um, have just finished the process of, um, getting my Italian citizenship.
26:06My parents were from Italy. Um, so now that that's sort of taken care of, uh, I want to,
26:13yeah, I want to spend more time in Europe. Absolutely. In Italy. Uh, I have friends who
26:17just, who just shot a vertical in Italy as well. Um, so yes, I mean, and who would not want to go to
26:23France, come to Paris and shoot. I mean, my God, come on. Yeah. I hope projects are coming,
26:30but it's, it's the beginning and that that's very exciting as you said, and I feel excited about it.
26:36I'm not sure. Uh, do we have kind of awards or, I mean, you told us there was a festival. So
26:43do we have awards for verticals where also, let's say it would help people to go towards quality and not
26:50only, you know, uh, profitability, but also make art with verticals. Do you think it's getting there?
26:57Yeah, we had it. We did it. Uh, there was a, um, there is a, a woman named Jen Cooper,
27:04who you may know. She lives in England and she has a, uh, an Instagram page called vertical drama love.
27:11And, um, um, and this, uh, this past year, she had, um, she had her vertical drama awards and, uh, um,
27:21they were actual awards, like, you know, that she got, um, you can hold it. It was an actual award.
27:29Um, and, uh, I didn't win. I was nominated for, uh, a comedy performance in a, uh, a vertical of that I did,
27:37which was called, um, fake it until you love me. Yes. Fake it until you love me. Uh, so I was nominated
27:44for a comedy. Uh, I didn't win, but that's totally okay. Um, but I'm assuming that will happen, uh,
27:51once a year as well now. And, uh, I'm assuming that, um, real short, real short is one of the
27:57companies that, uh, that start pretty much started this whole thing and they're from China. Uh, and they
28:03had their own awards as well for, um, for their own, for their real short, uh, verticals. Um,
28:10so yeah, I definitely think that's the thing. We're going to have more and more of those things.
28:15Right. I really share your optimists, your optimism, and, uh, I really think that it's,
28:20it's getting somewhere. So hopefully we can see you in more and more, um,
28:25uh, as we call them, uh, or verticals. So what can we wish, uh, for you for, for the next, uh,
28:38weeks or months? What are your projects? Uh, I just started working on a new, uh, vertical. I just
28:45started working on it yesterday. It is, uh, it is hilarious. It's, uh, it's about cheerleaders,
28:49uh, cheerleaders. It's called, uh, uh, cheer queen returns to slay. So, um, and I play, uh,
28:58this is one of those ones where I play a super over the top funny character. Um, so, uh, uh,
29:05I'll be shooting that for the next week or so. And I'm definitely looking forward to, like I said,
29:10the premiere of game of choice, and I want everybody to watch it. And, uh, and then,
29:15and I'm also looking forward to coming to, uh, to France, to Paris and shooting with you.
29:20How about that? We're waiting for you.