- 6 months ago
The top focus of this episode of News Today is on India-US trade talks. Amid the India-US trade deal stalemate, New Delhi is focussing on export diversification.
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NewsTranscript
00:00:00Well, good evening. You're watching News Today. I am Preeti Chowdhury.
00:00:03Our top talking points this evening.
00:00:06Trade talks hinge on the Trump Putin meet.
00:00:10Should India wait and watch or retaliate?
00:00:12Also, human lives versus animal rights debate.
00:00:15All of that over the course of the next 45 minutes right here on News Today.
00:00:20Allow me to take you through the headlines first.
00:00:26Government sets ball rolling on impeachment of Justice Varma
00:00:29after Cash Howl Rao looks up our speaker named three-member impeachment panel
00:00:35with Supreme Court judge, High Court judge and lawyer.
00:00:42Supreme Court backs Election Commission in hearing challenging the Bihar voter roll revisions
00:00:47as poll body right in not accepting Aadhaar as proof.
00:00:50Delhi police breaks up India gate protest over Supreme Court's Roundup Stray Dogs order.
00:01:03Celebrities post against top court order met with backlash on social media.
00:01:08Sacked Karnataka, Mantri, K and Rajanna targets Congress High Command,
00:01:16threatens to expose Congress' conspiracy plot.
00:01:20BJP launches scathing attack on Congress top brass.
00:01:23First raids after 30 years in Kashmir genocide horror.
00:01:31Ex-JKLF chief Yasin Malik Srinagar home raided.
00:01:35Victim Kashmiri pundit Sarla Bhatt was murdered in 1990.
00:01:42Supreme Court grants interim relief to Delhi owner of end-of-life petrol diesel cars
00:01:48says no coercive action to be taken.
00:01:55Union Cabinet approves four new semiconductor projects worth 4,594 crores units
00:02:02to be set up in Andhra Pradesh, Audisha, Punjab and Lucknow.
00:02:10U.S. trade talks on track.
00:02:12India draws red lines, puts focus on export diversification.
00:02:16Sources say U.S. trade reps to travel for next round of talks.
00:02:25Retail inflation eases to 8-year low of 1.55% in July.
00:02:31Decline as food prices plunge sharply.
00:02:33All right, the latest news break coming in right on top.
00:02:48The Congress has decided to up the ante on their Vote Chhori campaign.
00:02:53The Congress Party will launch a Vote Chhor Gaddi Chhor campaign.
00:02:58Congress' nationwide campaign will start from the 14th of August, what this really essentially means.
00:03:04But the Congress will spread out across the country with its cadre to put for the message
00:03:10at the back of what Rahul Gandhi said was an atomic detonation in terms of what he alleged was voter fraud.
00:03:20Candlelight marches at 8 p.m. in every district on the 14th of August.
00:03:25Rallies in all state capitals, big cities from August 22nd to 7th of September.
00:03:32Congress workers will collect 5 crore signatures in support of what Rahul Gandhi and the Congress calls his voter fraud.
00:03:42The latest campaign, Congress will launch Vote Chhor Gaddi Chhor campaign, which will start from the 14th of August, which is days from now.
00:03:57Over the course of the next 20 days, the Congress hopes to mount a concerted campaign to put pressure on the Election Commission of India
00:04:04and even the government because clearly the Congress now attacking not just the Election Commission but also the incumbent government,
00:04:14roping the incumbent government in as well with its slogan of Vote Chhor Gaddi Chhor.
00:04:23Moshmi Singh, my colleague who covers the Congress very closely, is joining me with the very latest on this campaign.
00:04:29Moshmi, which the Congress is all set to embark on starting the 14th of August, now Congress taking it a step further.
00:04:36Till now, it was a concerted attack on the Election Commission of India to respond to what the Congress allegation is
00:04:42and now the Congress linking both the incumbent government and the Election Commission of India with the slogan that they have coined,
00:04:50which is Vote Chhor Gaddi Chhor.
00:04:53All right, we seem to have lost my colleague Moshmi, but viewers, all of this now a concerted attempt to add pressure on the government as well
00:05:06and importantly the Election Commission of India by the Congress party.
00:05:10Moshmi is back with me.
00:05:11Moshmi, once again a clear attempt to link both the incumbent government and the Election Commission of India
00:05:17with the Vote Chhor Gaddi Chhor campaign.
00:05:20Moshmi, thank you.
00:05:23That's right, Preeti, you know, this is a part of the Congress party leading that charge against the Modi government
00:05:34and clearly, you know, this has been the zenith time that Congress party has said that the Election Commission is a mere puppet of the Modi government
00:05:46and on 14th August, there would be a candlelight march that they are planning across districts
00:05:52and after that, there will be an upping of the ante with different sorts of protests.
00:05:58But the Congress does realize that if they have to lead the entire opposition on this one,
00:06:04they will have to have an aggressive campaign on the ground, not only restricted to the premises of the parliament
00:06:10and this being a queue after yesterday's protest.
00:06:15Moshmi, is this going to be restricted just to the Congress because the Congress over the last three days
00:06:19has made a concerted attempt to reach out to all India parties.
00:06:23This specific issue has been found as a rallying point of the India Alliance coming together very strongly.
00:06:32Is it just limited now to the Congress where this campaign is going to be launched
00:06:37or will the Congress now also urge the India Alliance partners to also join this campaign?
00:06:48Preeti, you know, this time round the Congress has made this a rallying point
00:06:53and we've seen post the Lok Sabha elections, for the first time,
00:06:58MPs of that large number, you know, of the opposition combining force with Rahul Gandhi
00:07:05and so as the leader of the opposition in the lower house, which is the elected house of the parliament,
00:07:15clearly the Congress would be looking to chalk out and outline that role in a more defined manner
00:07:23by first making its own party, the party workers, you know, go on the ground, launch a massive protest
00:07:32and then perhaps mobilize the opposition to a combined force.
00:07:37The Congress would not want to give away the lead that it has taken to its ally partners
00:07:43and say that we are aggressive on this one, why don't you join hands?
00:07:47But this is a Congress campaign that we are seeing that's being launched out.
00:07:52Alright, Mosh, we appreciate you joining us and giving us the details of what is the Congress' plan.
00:07:57We are days to come, the Congress looking at launching a concerted campaign,
00:08:03trying to put together 5 crore signatures of citizens of this country to support
00:08:08and what they call was a massive vote of fraud at the behest of the Election Commission
00:08:12and the incumbent government.
00:08:14We're going to keep a keen eye on all developments.
00:08:16With that, viewers, I want to quickly shift focus to our top debate this evening at 9pm.
00:08:21On the top focus today, US President Donald Trump has described the 50% tariffs he announced on India
00:08:27to be a big blow to Russia.
00:08:30He's betting big on the meet with Putin to be held in Alaska later this week,
00:08:34but his sudden cold shoulder to New Delhi, even as he warms up to Islamabad,
00:08:39has puzzled strategic affairs experts.
00:08:41Here's the full report.
00:08:42U.S. President Donald Trump is set to meet Russian President Vladimir Putin in Alaska on Friday.
00:08:53Ahead of the talks aimed at ending the Russia-Ukraine war,
00:08:57Trump on Monday claimed to have dealt a big blow to Moscow
00:09:01by imposing unprecedented tariffs on India.
00:09:04The oil buyer that were putting a 50% tariff on you if you buy oil from Russia,
00:09:11that was a big blow.
00:09:13And then they say, gee, he wasn't so tough.
00:09:16Nobody else would have done that.
00:09:17And I haven't stopped there.
00:09:18I mean, look, I was all set to do things far bigger than that,
00:09:23but I got a call that they'd like to meet,
00:09:26and I'm going to see what they want to meet about it.
00:09:28I'd like to see a ceasefire.
00:09:30I'd like to see the best deal that could be made for both parties.
00:09:34You know, it takes two to tango, right?
00:09:38While the U.S. President trumpeted the tariffs on India,
00:09:41the highest in the world,
00:09:43he extended the trade truce with China by another 90 days,
00:09:47right after he called his relationship with President Xi Jinping as very good.
00:09:52We'll see what happens.
00:09:54China's been, we've been dealing very nicely with China,
00:09:57as you probably have heard.
00:09:59They have tremendous tariffs that they're paying to the United States
00:10:04of America,
00:10:05and we'll see what happens.
00:10:07They've been dealing quite nicely.
00:10:09The relationship is very good with President Xi and myself.
00:10:14Trump's sudden cold shoulder to New Delhi
00:10:16has refuddled strategic experts.
00:10:18It hasn't gone unnoticed how Pakistani Army Chief General Asim Munir
00:10:24hurled nuclear threats from American soil last week.
00:10:28At an event in Florida,
00:10:29General Munir said,
00:10:31Pakistan is a nuclear nation.
00:10:33If we think we are going down,
00:10:34we will take half the world down with us.
00:10:37He also threatened to fire missiles
00:10:39at any new damn India builds on the Indus and its tributaries.
00:10:43Calling India Ferrari speeding on a highway,
00:10:47General Munir described Pakistan
00:10:48as a dump truck full of gravel that blocks the car.
00:10:52Donald Trump is wrong in his targeting of India in this case.
00:10:58First of all,
00:10:59the United States purchases uranium hexafluoride from Russia
00:11:04and other strategic minerals from Russia.
00:11:08And India is right to stand up for its rights.
00:11:11That Prime Minister Modi is standing up for India's rights
00:11:15is going to be the episode that historians remember
00:11:19where the United States truly learned
00:11:22that you cannot kick India around.
00:11:26The MEA on Monday reacted sharply to General Munir's threat
00:11:30and reiterated New Delhi will not give in to nuclear blackmail.
00:11:34The MEA also regretted
00:11:35that the hostile statements were made from the soil
00:11:38of a friendly third country.
00:11:40President Trump seems to have warmed up to General Munir
00:11:43following the ceasefire after Operation Sindur.
00:11:47He had even hosted a lunch for the Pakistani army chief
00:11:50at the White House.
00:11:53Meanwhile,
00:11:54the US State Department has designated
00:11:56the Balochistan Liberation Army
00:11:58and the Majeed Bridge as a terrorist outfit
00:12:01which will be seen as a win by Islamabad.
00:12:05Now the trade talks between India and the US
00:12:08hang in the balance
00:12:09as Trump hopes putting pressure on New Delhi
00:12:12to curtail ties with Moscow
00:12:14will help him reach an agreement on Ukraine.
00:12:17The Indo-US ties described
00:12:19as a defining partnership for the 21st century
00:12:22by an early American president
00:12:24is now under a cloud.
00:12:26Bureau Report, India Today.
00:12:27There's one thing that's practically been out in the open
00:12:32that these are not just trade talks.
00:12:34This is United States of America
00:12:36trying to pressurize India
00:12:38to make a geopolitical choice.
00:12:39So some of the questions
00:12:40that we'd be posing in this debate
00:12:42is President Trump clearly linking Indian tariffs
00:12:45to the Ukraine war
00:12:47and trade talks hinging
00:12:48on the Trump-Putin meet
00:12:51at the Alaska summit later this week.
00:12:53Trade talks
00:12:54What's a long haul ahead
00:12:56and should India wait and watch
00:12:58or retaliate?
00:12:59How should India retaliate?
00:13:00What explains Trump's Pakistan embrace?
00:13:03All of these questions
00:13:04taken to our panelists
00:13:05Ashok Sajjanath,
00:13:07former Indian diplomat,
00:13:08Mr. Brahma Chalani,
00:13:09strategic affairs expert,
00:13:12Mr. Casey Singh,
00:13:13former secretary, MEA.
00:13:16I'd like to begin
00:13:17with Mr. Brahma Chalani.
00:13:18Mr. Brahma Chalani,
00:13:20how should India now,
00:13:21because we've seen the kind of language
00:13:23that Asim Munir has made
00:13:25on U.S. soil,
00:13:27how would you reckon
00:13:28India should calibrate
00:13:29its diplomatic response,
00:13:31especially to Pakistan's nuclear threat
00:13:33issued on U.S. soil?
00:13:36Well, for the U.S.,
00:13:37Pakistan has long been
00:13:40a useful form
00:13:42for its South Asian policy.
00:13:45This means the U.S.
00:13:46is willing to overlook
00:13:47Pakistan's terrorism track record,
00:13:50especially given that
00:13:51Pakistan's terrorism
00:13:53is largely directed at India.
00:13:56And this may explain
00:13:57why Rubio recently thanked
00:13:59Pakistan for, quote-unquote,
00:14:01countering terrorism
00:14:03and preserving regional stability.
00:14:07In fact, just yesterday,
00:14:09Rubio listed Balochistan's
00:14:11Majid Brigade as a terror outfit.
00:14:14And this came just three weeks
00:14:15after Pakistan requested such action.
00:14:18But I think we have to look at
00:14:20what's happening
00:14:21in the larger U.S.-India context.
00:14:25Russian oil is just a pretext
00:14:27to strong-arm India
00:14:29into accepting a Trump-dictated trade agreement.
00:14:34That is, tariffs on India
00:14:35have little to do with Russian oil
00:14:37as evident from one telling fact.
00:14:40Indian exports to the U.S.
00:14:41of refined fuels,
00:14:44such as gasoline, diesel,
00:14:46and jet fuel,
00:14:48remain exempt from his tariffs.
00:14:51So Trump has no problem
00:14:53with Russian oil
00:14:53as long as it is refined in India
00:14:56and then pumped into
00:14:57American planes, trucks, and cars.
00:14:59And as we all know
00:15:01that the U.S. continues
00:15:03to import Russian-enriched uranium
00:15:05fertilizers and chemicals.
00:15:06So, in a sense,
00:15:09what Trump is doing,
00:15:10he's using
00:15:10India's Russian oil purchases
00:15:13as a crude bargaining tactic
00:15:15to secure a bilateral trade deal
00:15:18on his terms.
00:15:20In fact,
00:15:21as the Washington Post
00:15:22has reported the other day,
00:15:23the Trump administration
00:15:26has weaponized tariffs,
00:15:27not merely to extract trade concessions,
00:15:30but also to bind other countries
00:15:32more closely
00:15:33to U.S. strategic
00:15:34and security interests.
00:15:36And in India's case,
00:15:37they're trying to bend India
00:15:38to the American will
00:15:39by targeting the country's
00:15:41traditionally independent approach
00:15:43to global affairs.
00:15:44So it's not just about trade then.
00:15:46It's about India's
00:15:48independent approach
00:15:49to global affairs.
00:15:50It's about
00:15:51undermining India's neutrality
00:15:54in international affairs.
00:15:57So there are larger issues
00:15:59at stake now.
00:16:00All right.
00:16:01So larger issues.
00:16:02And this is something
00:16:02which we've spoken about
00:16:03ad nauseum,
00:16:04the sheer fact
00:16:05that this is really
00:16:05not so much about trade,
00:16:07but pushing India
00:16:07to make a geopolitical choice.
00:16:09But Ashok Shah Janhar,
00:16:10to put the focus
00:16:11on what Aasem Munir
00:16:14issued,
00:16:15a clear nuclear threat
00:16:16from U.S. soil,
00:16:17how would you reckon,
00:16:18you know,
00:16:19what are the channels
00:16:20diplomatically
00:16:21that India can engage
00:16:23to express its concerns
00:16:24without, of course,
00:16:26escalating tensions?
00:16:29Yeah.
00:16:30Thank you very much,
00:16:30Priti,
00:16:31for having me on the show.
00:16:32You're very right.
00:16:33You know,
00:16:33as far as Aasem Munir's
00:16:35statement in Tampa,
00:16:36Florida is concerned,
00:16:38India,
00:16:39through its
00:16:40Ministry of External Affairs
00:16:41spokesperson,
00:16:42has already given out
00:16:44its version,
00:16:46its response,
00:16:47basically saying
00:16:48that it's highly regrettable
00:16:49that this statement
00:16:51has come,
00:16:52you know,
00:16:53leaving it open
00:16:55to the international community
00:16:56to draw their own conclusions,
00:16:58and also expressing
00:17:00serious regret
00:17:01that it has
00:17:02come from the soil
00:17:04of a friendly
00:17:05third country.
00:17:07So,
00:17:07and also reiterating
00:17:10what has been
00:17:11our stand
00:17:11that India
00:17:12is never going to
00:17:14cow down
00:17:15under any nuclear blackmail
00:17:17or nuclear threat.
00:17:18So I think
00:17:19as far as
00:17:19this messaging
00:17:20is concerned,
00:17:21this is the right
00:17:22message.
00:17:22We have not
00:17:23gone,
00:17:24you know,
00:17:25to the sort of
00:17:26rhetoric and,
00:17:27you know,
00:17:28the intemperate language
00:17:29that has been used
00:17:30by Munir.
00:17:31We shouldn't bring
00:17:32ourselves to
00:17:33down to that
00:17:34particular level.
00:17:35But as far as
00:17:36the United States
00:17:36is concerned,
00:17:37definitely,
00:17:38you know,
00:17:39we don't have
00:17:40an ambassador,
00:17:40a U.S. ambassador
00:17:41in India
00:17:43at the moment.
00:17:44The Sharjah is there
00:17:45and the Sharjah
00:17:46definitely,
00:17:47in my view,
00:17:48needs to be spoken to.
00:17:50We need to take it up
00:17:51with the U.S. government
00:17:53that this is not
00:17:54the way that you
00:17:55provide a platform
00:17:57to,
00:17:58you know,
00:17:59an avowed
00:18:00hostile power
00:18:01and enemy power
00:18:03who is sort of,
00:18:03you know,
00:18:04carrying on
00:18:05terrorist actions
00:18:07in India,
00:18:09against India,
00:18:10as we have seen
00:18:11just recently
00:18:12on the 22nd of April,
00:18:14that you give
00:18:14full freedom
00:18:15to that individual
00:18:17to come
00:18:19and spout venom
00:18:20against India.
00:18:22So,
00:18:22definitely take it up
00:18:23with the United States.
00:18:25It's good
00:18:25that there have been
00:18:27no ministerial statements
00:18:29that have
00:18:29emanated,
00:18:31but definitely
00:18:31at the diplomatic level,
00:18:33this point
00:18:34definitely needs
00:18:35to be made
00:18:36to the U.S. administration.
00:18:38All right,
00:18:39so take it up
00:18:40diplomatically
00:18:41with the United States
00:18:41of America.
00:18:42I want to bring in
00:18:43Mr. Casey Singh,
00:18:43but given,
00:18:44Mr. Singh,
00:18:45Pakistan leveraging
00:18:46of counter-terrorism,
00:18:47cooperation,
00:18:47and economic promises
00:18:49to gain U.S. favor,
00:18:51should India now
00:18:52also prioritize
00:18:53diplomatic channels
00:18:54or multilateral forums,
00:18:56BRICS,
00:18:57SCO,
00:18:58to offset
00:18:59Pakistan's influence
00:19:00and maintain
00:19:01its strategic autonomy?
00:19:04Look,
00:19:05nothing's going to happen
00:19:05in SCO.
00:19:06The Chinese
00:19:07will not take it up.
00:19:08Although,
00:19:09the rationale
00:19:10for creating
00:19:11that organization
00:19:12was counter-terrorism
00:19:13originally,
00:19:15but it's moved
00:19:15on to other things
00:19:16and the Chinese
00:19:17will not
00:19:17let us
00:19:19approach the subject
00:19:20there.
00:19:21I think we should
00:19:22just ignore it.
00:19:23This is only
00:19:24the language is new.
00:19:25It's coming
00:19:26from a friendly
00:19:28country's soil.
00:19:29But this is not
00:19:30the first time
00:19:30Pakistan has tried
00:19:31nuclear blackmail.
00:19:33Whenever there was
00:19:34confrontation with India
00:19:35and they wanted
00:19:36even Kargil,
00:19:38when they found
00:19:39that they are
00:19:39on the back foot,
00:19:40they'll start moving
00:19:41their weapons around.
00:19:42And they knew
00:19:43that the Americans
00:19:43will see that
00:19:45they are handling
00:19:45the nuclear weapons,
00:19:46they're moving them
00:19:47about,
00:19:48and they would come
00:19:49running to the doorstep
00:19:50and say,
00:19:51hey,
00:19:51don't fight.
00:19:51We don't want
00:19:52a conflagration
00:19:53involving the region.
00:19:55But what is different?
00:19:56All these are interlinked.
00:19:57I don't think
00:19:58we should see
00:19:58approach to Pakistan
00:20:00separate, no.
00:20:02This is,
00:20:03this is not
00:20:03a new development
00:20:04because inviting
00:20:05General Munir
00:20:07to a lunch
00:20:07and then having
00:20:08the gumption
00:20:09to also invite
00:20:10the Indian Prime Minister
00:20:11who was then
00:20:12in Canada,
00:20:13that why don't you
00:20:14swing by the White House
00:20:15when the army chief
00:20:17is there,
00:20:17and this is just
00:20:18about a few weeks,
00:20:19a few months
00:20:20after what Pakistan
00:20:22had done
00:20:22in Bahalgaan,
00:20:24it showed that
00:20:25Trump is completely
00:20:26transactional.
00:20:27He is unconcerned
00:20:28about any of the
00:20:28old links,
00:20:29considerations.
00:20:31It's an entirely
00:20:32new world
00:20:32that we are dealing
00:20:33with,
00:20:34and therefore
00:20:34there's a new way
00:20:36that we have to
00:20:36approach it.
00:20:37And I think with Trump
00:20:38it has to be
00:20:38just answer back,
00:20:40correct the record,
00:20:41which is what the
00:20:42Europeans have done.
00:20:43There's no need
00:20:43to get into an argument
00:20:44with him,
00:20:45like Zelensky
00:20:45made the mistake
00:20:46of doing
00:20:46in the White House.
00:20:48By the same time,
00:20:49correct the facts,
00:20:51keep sticking
00:20:53to your basic
00:20:53positions,
00:20:55see if you can
00:20:55sit across
00:20:56the negotiating
00:20:56table and have
00:20:57a deal.
00:20:58The extra thing
00:21:00that is put in,
00:21:01I mean,
00:21:01what pressure
00:21:02is going to come
00:21:03on Russia
00:21:03because bulk
00:21:04of the oil
00:21:04is bought
00:21:04by China
00:21:05and vis-a-vis
00:21:06China,
00:21:07the Americans
00:21:07are backed off.
00:21:08After the Chinese
00:21:10said they will
00:21:10hold back
00:21:11on the rare earths,
00:21:12the duties
00:21:13were brought down
00:21:14from 150%
00:21:15to 50%.
00:21:16And now he's
00:21:17given another
00:21:1790 days to China
00:21:18to finalize the deal.
00:21:20So with Trump,
00:21:21I think there is
00:21:22a methodology
00:21:22which is emerging,
00:21:24which is that
00:21:25you keep up
00:21:25the pressure,
00:21:26you see
00:21:27how to approach
00:21:29him
00:21:29or focus
00:21:31on subjects
00:21:31he's interested in.
00:21:33And I think
00:21:34in the case of India,
00:21:35the farm products
00:21:36are coming in the way
00:21:36which are politically
00:21:37very sensitive
00:21:38in India,
00:21:39but somehow
00:21:39I think Trump
00:21:40is stuck on that.
00:21:42But we have to
00:21:43adopt a new way
00:21:44of dealing with Trump.
00:21:45And I think
00:21:46that is a challenge
00:21:47for Indian diplomacy
00:21:48and this will carry on.
00:21:50He'll reach out
00:21:51to Pakistan,
00:21:51he'll reach out,
00:21:52he'll say good things
00:21:53about China one day,
00:21:54he'll say bad things
00:21:55about China the other day.
00:21:56Just ignore all that.
00:21:58But keep,
00:21:59straighten out
00:21:59the record
00:22:00when he goes
00:22:02into man-made facts
00:22:04and his own
00:22:05assumption
00:22:05of how the world runs.
00:22:08Mr. Brahmachalani,
00:22:09so what is this
00:22:10new form of diplomacy
00:22:11that possibly
00:22:11India needs to tail
00:22:13because
00:22:13Prime Minister
00:22:14is expected
00:22:15to hold bilateral
00:22:16talks with
00:22:17the Chinese President
00:22:18Xi Jinping
00:22:18on the side
00:22:20of the SEO summit.
00:22:21Is there even
00:22:21a possibility
00:22:22somewhere down
00:22:23the line
00:22:23to counterbalance
00:22:24the US-Pakistan
00:22:25reset here
00:22:26or with the way
00:22:27things are developing
00:22:28with the doublespeak
00:22:29of President Trump
00:22:30especially vis-a-vis China
00:22:31that's not even
00:22:32a possibility?
00:22:33Well, India
00:22:36is signaling
00:22:36that it has
00:22:37other geopolitical
00:22:38options.
00:22:40Russian President
00:22:40Putin is expected
00:22:42to visit India
00:22:42later this month
00:22:44or maybe
00:22:44in the coming weeks
00:22:46and the Prime Minister
00:22:48is going to China
00:22:49now for the SEO summit.
00:22:52But
00:22:52the bigger issue
00:22:54is this
00:22:55that
00:22:56the US-India
00:22:57relationship
00:22:58has probably
00:22:59plunged
00:23:00to its lowest point
00:23:02in this century
00:23:03thanks to Trump's
00:23:05economic war
00:23:06and his singling out
00:23:07of India
00:23:08for secondary sanctions.
00:23:10And the damage
00:23:11to this relationship
00:23:12will not be
00:23:14easily repairable
00:23:16even if a bilateral
00:23:17trade agreement
00:23:18is eventually reached
00:23:19because
00:23:20what has happened
00:23:22is that
00:23:23the mutual trust
00:23:25that had underpinned
00:23:27the growing
00:23:28US-India strategic
00:23:29partnership
00:23:29relationship.
00:23:30That mutual trust
00:23:31has been
00:23:32eroded.
00:23:34In fact,
00:23:34in a way
00:23:35one can say
00:23:36that
00:23:36Trump
00:23:38has opened
00:23:39India's eyes.
00:23:40He has
00:23:41his sanctions
00:23:42and tariff blitz
00:23:44may have done
00:23:45India a favor
00:23:46by exposing
00:23:47the strategic reality
00:23:48of America's
00:23:49unreliability.
00:23:51By presenting
00:23:51the US
00:23:53as a fickle
00:23:53transactional power
00:23:54Trump has
00:23:56signaled
00:23:56that
00:23:56Washington
00:23:57cannot be
00:23:58counted on
00:23:58to separate
00:23:59short-term
00:24:00commercial
00:24:01considerations
00:24:02from long-term
00:24:03strategic
00:24:04imperatives.
00:24:05Now,
00:24:05this is a serious
00:24:06blow to
00:24:07the security
00:24:08architecture
00:24:10in the Indo-Pacific.
00:24:11A stable
00:24:12Indo-Pacific order
00:24:13demands
00:24:14more than just
00:24:15joint
00:24:16US-India
00:24:17military exercises
00:24:18and communiques.
00:24:19It requires
00:24:20political will
00:24:21to accommodate
00:24:22each other's
00:24:23core interests.
00:24:25Punishing India
00:24:26in ways that
00:24:27ignore its
00:24:27legitimate
00:24:28security and
00:24:29energy needs
00:24:29sends the
00:24:30opposite message.
00:24:32This is especially
00:24:33so given the
00:24:33fact that
00:24:34from the time
00:24:35that Joe Biden
00:24:36was in the
00:24:37White House,
00:24:37we have seen
00:24:38how US and
00:24:40Indian interests
00:24:41have become
00:24:42increasingly divergent
00:24:43in India's
00:24:44own immediate
00:24:45neighborhood.
00:24:46So while
00:24:46India and
00:24:47the US talk
00:24:48about global
00:24:49strategic partnership,
00:24:50in India's own
00:24:52immediate neighborhood,
00:24:53the US is
00:24:55working against
00:24:56India's core
00:24:58interests,
00:24:58whether it's
00:24:59Pakistan,
00:24:59Bangladesh or
00:25:00Myanmar,
00:25:01the US and
00:25:02India are not
00:25:03on the same
00:25:04page.
00:25:04They are in
00:25:05fact on
00:25:06opposite sides.
00:25:07And how to
00:25:08address these
00:25:09issues has
00:25:10become an
00:25:10important challenge
00:25:11for India's
00:25:12foreign policy
00:25:13and also for
00:25:14India's
00:25:14security.
00:25:17Mr. Sajanar,
00:25:17would you want
00:25:18to weigh in on
00:25:19this?
00:25:19Because under
00:25:20President Trump,
00:25:21clearly there's
00:25:21been a reset
00:25:22where Pakistan
00:25:23is concerned
00:25:23and the
00:25:25writings on
00:25:25the wall
00:25:25for India.
00:25:26On the other
00:25:27hand,
00:25:27you've had,
00:25:28you know,
00:25:28we've spoken
00:25:29about the
00:25:29Indian Prime
00:25:30Minister
00:25:30traveling to
00:25:31China.
00:25:32There was a
00:25:32bilateral on
00:25:33the side of
00:25:34the SCO
00:25:35summit.
00:25:35Also,
00:25:36most important,
00:25:37would you reckon
00:25:37in midst of
00:25:38this could very
00:25:38well be the
00:25:39Alaska summit
00:25:40because the
00:25:42failure or the
00:25:43success of that
00:25:44could very well
00:25:44define India and
00:25:45US relationship
00:25:46going further?
00:25:49Yeah,
00:25:50you know,
00:25:50many questions
00:25:51you have posed,
00:25:52let me try to
00:25:53respond to at
00:25:54least a few of
00:25:55them.
00:25:55The first is on
00:25:55the Alaska
00:25:56summit.
00:25:57You know,
00:25:57so if there are
00:25:58positive results
00:25:59of the Alaska
00:26:00summit,
00:26:00you know,
00:26:00it will have
00:26:01an impact on
00:26:02the 25%
00:26:03additional tariffs
00:26:04due to India's
00:26:06purchase of
00:26:07Russian oil
00:26:08that, you know,
00:26:09will be impacted.
00:26:11The other 25%
00:26:13base tariffs,
00:26:14because we have
00:26:15not been able to
00:26:16reach a trade
00:26:17deal, nothing
00:26:18will happen to
00:26:19that, so we
00:26:20need to continue
00:26:21to negotiate
00:26:22with the United
00:26:23States.
00:26:24I think we need
00:26:25to recognize
00:26:26briefly here,
00:26:27and I think
00:26:28definitely both
00:26:30the other
00:26:30panelists do
00:26:31recognize that,
00:26:32as does, you
00:26:33know, much of
00:26:34India, that this
00:26:35is a consequential
00:26:36relationship as
00:26:37far as India is
00:26:38concerned, and it
00:26:39is, behoves upon
00:26:41both India and the
00:26:42United States to
00:26:43preserve that
00:26:44relationship, and I
00:26:45think we should
00:26:46continue with the
00:26:48trade negotiations.
00:26:50The other point,
00:26:50and of course,
00:26:51you know, having
00:26:52put our red
00:26:53lines very, very
00:26:54clearly, see what
00:26:56else is possible,
00:26:57you know, as far
00:26:58as trade deficit,
00:27:00$40 billion, you
00:27:01know, India is
00:27:02number 10 or
00:27:0311 as far as
00:27:04countries with
00:27:05whom the United
00:27:06States has adverse
00:27:08balance of trade.
00:27:10So we can see
00:27:11where we can pitch
00:27:13in as far as
00:27:14increased imports
00:27:15of LNG are
00:27:16concerned.
00:27:17Last time you
00:27:18would recall
00:27:18Trump 1.0, we
00:27:20had said, okay,
00:27:20we are going to
00:27:21buy more
00:27:21aircrafts, etc.
00:27:23See what those
00:27:24possibilities are.
00:27:25Now, you also
00:27:26mentioned about,
00:27:27you know, Prime
00:27:28Minister's visit to
00:27:29China.
00:27:30Let's go to
00:27:31China with open
00:27:32eyes.
00:27:33You know, while
00:27:34we meet Mr.
00:27:36Putin, Prime
00:27:36Minister Modi
00:27:37meets Mr.
00:27:37Putin, that is
00:27:38very good, discuss
00:27:40Putin will be
00:27:41coming to India
00:27:41also, as far
00:27:43as China is
00:27:44concerned, you
00:27:44know, it is
00:27:45sitting on 38,000
00:27:47square kilometers
00:27:48of my territory.
00:27:49It is eyeing
00:27:5093,000 square
00:27:51kilometers of my
00:27:52territory more.
00:27:54It is the one
00:27:55that has not
00:27:56indirectly, but it
00:27:58has actively
00:27:59supported, you
00:28:01know, Pakistan in
00:28:02the conflict that
00:28:04took place, the
00:28:05four-day conflict
00:28:05that took place,
00:28:06not only with
00:28:07equipment, but
00:28:08also with the
00:28:10intelligence, with
00:28:10everything that
00:28:12it has done.
00:28:13So, you know,
00:28:13there are very,
00:28:14you know, there
00:28:16might be a reset,
00:28:17attempt at a
00:28:17reset, but there
00:28:19are very strong
00:28:21limits and, you
00:28:23know,
00:28:24True, the
00:28:24geopolitical map
00:28:25around India has
00:28:25also changed,
00:28:26you're right.
00:28:28So, you know,
00:28:29we can't go
00:28:30blindfolded that,
00:28:31you know, if
00:28:32Trump is behaving
00:28:33in this manner,
00:28:34we go into the
00:28:35embrace of China.
00:28:36No, not at all.
00:28:37That is just not
00:28:37possible.
00:28:38But that having
00:28:39been said, we
00:28:40of course go
00:28:41around with other
00:28:42partners.
00:28:43As I mentioned,
00:28:44Putin is there,
00:28:45we have a UK
00:28:46India FTA, we
00:28:47make sure that
00:28:48EU India FTA
00:28:49succeeds, look at
00:28:51the India GCC
00:28:53discussions, India
00:28:55Mercosur, you
00:28:56would remember
00:28:56that when PM was
00:28:57in Brazil, we
00:28:59discussed about
00:29:00the India
00:29:00Mercosur FTA.
00:29:02So, I think all
00:29:03those possibilities
00:29:04are there.
00:29:05It is not as
00:29:06if, you know,
00:29:07India does not
00:29:08have options,
00:29:09in my view.
00:29:10India has very
00:29:11tangible, viable
00:29:13options, fourth
00:29:14largest economy,
00:29:16fastest growing
00:29:16major economy,
00:29:18and as people
00:29:18have said, you
00:29:19know, $40
00:29:20billion out of
00:29:21$800 billion,
00:29:23meaning it is
00:29:23about, what,
00:29:255% or something
00:29:26of that sort that
00:29:27your exports are
00:29:28going to be.
00:29:29But continue with
00:29:30the negotiations,
00:29:31continue the
00:29:32conversation.
00:29:33I am not saying
00:29:33that, you
00:29:34know, what
00:29:35Munir is doing
00:29:36or what Trump
00:29:36is doing, that
00:29:37we sort of, you
00:29:37know, sit back
00:29:38and say that,
00:29:39you know, we
00:29:39are going to
00:29:40withdraw from
00:29:41this.
00:29:42So, continue
00:29:43the conversation,
00:29:44but also look
00:29:45at other
00:29:45alternatives.
00:29:47Mr. Casey
00:29:47Singh, do you
00:29:48concur, because,
00:29:50you know,
00:29:50ultimately, all
00:29:51eyes right now,
00:29:52which we were
00:29:52speaking of earlier,
00:29:53will be on the
00:29:54Alaska Summit,
00:29:55and how much
00:29:55do you think
00:29:56that meeting
00:29:56between President
00:29:57Trump and
00:29:57Putin have a
00:29:58bearing on tariffs
00:30:00where India is
00:30:00concerned?
00:30:01Do you think
00:30:01that's going to
00:30:02be key?
00:30:03Look, that's
00:30:04an ideal best
00:30:04case scenario.
00:30:06I don't think
00:30:07anybody, even
00:30:08President Trump
00:30:09himself has
00:30:09climbed down.
00:30:10He's not saying
00:30:11he's going to
00:30:12bring back a
00:30:12deal.
00:30:13He's not saying
00:30:13I'll see what's
00:30:14on Putin's
00:30:15mind.
00:30:16And then the
00:30:16Europeans are
00:30:17having a
00:30:18teleconference
00:30:19with the
00:30:20Americans and
00:30:21including
00:30:22President of
00:30:23Ukraine, and
00:30:25they're going to
00:30:25be putting
00:30:25pressure on
00:30:26Trump that you
00:30:27can't go there
00:30:27and just decide
00:30:29on behalf of
00:30:30Ukraine what
00:30:31territory can be
00:30:32ceded.
00:30:32it's a sovereign
00:30:34country.
00:30:35And President
00:30:36Brzezinski is
00:30:37right that he
00:30:38would have to
00:30:38consult his own
00:30:39people, including
00:30:41perhaps a
00:30:41referendum.
00:30:42So it's not
00:30:43something which
00:30:43Trump can do.
00:30:44He can just go
00:30:44there.
00:30:45And I think
00:30:45Trump is
00:30:46beginning to
00:30:46realize that.
00:30:47So I don't
00:30:48expect any
00:30:49tremendous outcome
00:30:51out of the
00:30:52Alaska summit.
00:30:53Best case
00:30:54scenario is
00:30:55that yes,
00:30:56Putin climbs
00:30:57down and
00:30:58Putin says,
00:30:58OK, I don't
00:31:00want the whole
00:31:00of Donbass.
00:31:01I'll be willing
00:31:02to settle for
00:31:02what I have.
00:31:04And that is
00:31:04then the starting
00:31:05point of
00:31:06Brzezinski and
00:31:07the Russians
00:31:08sitting down
00:31:08together and
00:31:09talking about it.
00:31:10then, of
00:31:11course, we
00:31:11can say that
00:31:12the oil
00:31:13sanctions
00:31:14regarding Russian
00:31:15oil can go
00:31:16off.
00:31:16Because one of
00:31:17the things that
00:31:18Putin would
00:31:18demand from
00:31:19the Americans
00:31:19is for the
00:31:20U.S. to
00:31:21lift sanctions.
00:31:22So the
00:31:22American sanctions
00:31:23are lifted.
00:31:23Where is the
00:31:24question of
00:31:24imposing sanctions
00:31:25on India to be
00:31:27trading with
00:31:27Russia?
00:31:28But the problem
00:31:29is more
00:31:29complicated.
00:31:30You see, in a
00:31:30sense, back to
00:31:31the 20th century
00:31:33of bipolarity,
00:31:35the bipolarity
00:31:35this time is
00:31:36U.S. on
00:31:38one side and
00:31:38China and
00:31:39Russia on
00:31:40the other.
00:31:41Now, in this
00:31:41bipolarity, the
00:31:42problem is in
00:31:43the 20th century,
00:31:45we had non-aligned
00:31:45movement.
00:31:46But one of the
00:31:47poles, that is
00:31:48Soviet Union, was
00:31:50friendly towards
00:31:50the non-aligned
00:31:51countries.
00:31:52We didn't have
00:31:53any conflict of
00:31:54interest with
00:31:54them.
00:31:55This time, we
00:31:55have a problem
00:31:56with one of
00:31:57the poles, as
00:31:57Mr. Sajan
00:31:58has just pointed
00:31:59out.
00:32:00How do you
00:32:00deal with
00:32:01China?
00:32:01Because we
00:32:01have outstanding
00:32:02problems.
00:32:04It's very
00:32:05clearly, it was
00:32:05involved in
00:32:06the four-day
00:32:08battle that
00:32:09India had
00:32:09with Pakistan.
00:32:10It's giving
00:32:10weapons, 80%
00:32:12of the weapons
00:32:12Pakistan is
00:32:13getting from
00:32:13them.
00:32:14So we are
00:32:15stuck in a
00:32:16new bipolarity.
00:32:18And that's
00:32:19why we have
00:32:20to end.
00:32:20Many of the
00:32:20old assumptions
00:32:21have disappeared
00:32:22that we are
00:32:24critical.
00:32:24At this point,
00:32:25Mr. Singh, I
00:32:26just want to
00:32:26come all of
00:32:28you and let's
00:32:29begin with you.
00:32:29So what, as
00:32:30per you, are
00:32:31the options that
00:32:32lie in front of
00:32:33India where you're
00:32:34dealing with a
00:32:35new normal?
00:32:36geopolitically,
00:32:37especially around
00:32:38your own country
00:32:39where dynamics
00:32:40have drastically
00:32:41changed?
00:32:44Are you asking
00:32:45me?
00:32:45Yes, sir.
00:32:46Go ahead.
00:32:47No, no, I
00:32:47think you have
00:32:47to just reconfigure
00:32:49your diplomacy.
00:32:50And some of
00:32:51it is the old
00:32:52experience of the
00:32:53last century.
00:32:54We have to start
00:32:54looking at,
00:32:56diversify your
00:32:57trade.
00:32:57I don't know
00:32:58why we haven't
00:32:58done it so far.
00:32:59But we've been
00:33:00let down very
00:33:01badly because the
00:33:01Europeans are
00:33:02backed out.
00:33:02Otherwise, the
00:33:03Europeans were
00:33:04one of the
00:33:05poles that
00:33:05we're looking
00:33:06at in a
00:33:07multipolar world.
00:33:08Now, how do
00:33:08we create a
00:33:09multi?
00:33:09The Japanese
00:33:10are there.
00:33:11The Koreans
00:33:11are there.
00:33:12But they've
00:33:12all got a deal
00:33:13with the
00:33:13Americans.
00:33:14So now we
00:33:15have left
00:33:15stranded as
00:33:16far as the
00:33:17deal is
00:33:17concerned.
00:33:17So we have
00:33:18to do a
00:33:18deal.
00:33:19In that,
00:33:20nobody is
00:33:20going to
00:33:20help you.
00:33:21But long
00:33:22term, you
00:33:22have to plan
00:33:23in terms of
00:33:24really not
00:33:25depending on
00:33:26Americans.
00:33:27And that's
00:33:27why weapons
00:33:27already, there's
00:33:28news.
00:33:28We have told
00:33:29them we are
00:33:29not interested in
00:33:30the F-35s.
00:33:31You can't
00:33:31rely on the
00:33:32Americans.
00:33:33So I think
00:33:33the trust which
00:33:34is gone, as
00:33:35Mr. Jalani
00:33:35put it, is
00:33:36going to be
00:33:37very difficult
00:33:37to restore.
00:33:39So the
00:33:41Indian diplomacy
00:33:41will get
00:33:42reconstructed over
00:33:43the next decade
00:33:45or so, five
00:33:46years to ten
00:33:46years.
00:33:47Mr. Jalani,
00:33:48would you want
00:33:48to come in?
00:33:49Because internally,
00:33:50hopefully this
00:33:50will push us
00:33:51to make those
00:33:51reforms that the
00:33:53country has been
00:33:53crying for.
00:33:54But diplomatically,
00:33:55what would you
00:33:56think currently
00:33:57would be the
00:33:58best path for
00:33:59India?
00:33:59Firmness with
00:34:02engagement should
00:34:03be India's
00:34:04approach.
00:34:05India cannot
00:34:06just be making
00:34:07strong statements.
00:34:09In fact, India
00:34:10handled Trump
00:34:10better in his
00:34:12first term.
00:34:14In his first
00:34:14term, Trump
00:34:16stripped India
00:34:16of its GSP
00:34:18status.
00:34:19He also slapped
00:34:20tariffs on
00:34:21Indian steel and
00:34:22aluminum.
00:34:23What did India
00:34:24do?
00:34:24They imposed
00:34:25counter-tariffs.
00:34:27And those
00:34:28counter-tariffs came
00:34:29into force in June
00:34:302019 that
00:34:32colonized U.S.
00:34:35exporters.
00:34:36They lobbied in
00:34:36Washington for
00:34:37relief from the
00:34:38Indian counter-tariffs.
00:34:39That eventually led
00:34:41to bilateral
00:34:42negotiations.
00:34:43And a deal was
00:34:44reached on the
00:34:45eve of the
00:34:47September 2023
00:34:49New Delhi summit
00:34:51of G20.
00:34:53Then both sides
00:34:54compromised and a
00:34:55trade deal was
00:34:57reached.
00:34:57Today, again, we
00:34:59have to approach
00:35:00Trump in a
00:35:02similar way.
00:35:03Because if we
00:35:05turn the other
00:35:05cheek, he is
00:35:06going to keep
00:35:07slapping us.
00:35:08Look at the
00:35:09way he has,
00:35:11you know, his
00:35:12harsher treatment
00:35:14of India than
00:35:15China.
00:35:16That really is
00:35:17astounding.
00:35:17India is a
00:35:18strategic ally.
00:35:19China is
00:35:20America's main
00:35:22adversary and
00:35:23competitor.
00:35:24But he
00:35:25handles China with
00:35:26kid gloves, but
00:35:28he's driving the
00:35:29U.S.-India
00:35:29relationship with
00:35:30an iron fist.
00:35:32As far as what
00:35:33Pakistan is doing,
00:35:35and it's linked to
00:35:35what, you know, to
00:35:36the questions that
00:35:37you asked earlier.
00:35:38Look, we should not
00:35:40normalize Pakistan's
00:35:42behavior.
00:35:43Pakistan may have
00:35:44engaged in nuclear
00:35:45blackmail earlier, but
00:35:46we have never seen a
00:35:48Pakistani army chief
00:35:50make such threats
00:35:53openly, publicly.
00:35:55He's saying he's
00:35:56going to, he's going
00:35:57to take half the
00:35:58world down.
00:35:59He's going to nuke
00:36:00India.
00:36:00He says he's going
00:36:01to bomb.
00:36:02Especially whether,
00:36:03if we build a dam,
00:36:05the water treaty, he's
00:36:05bought all of that up.
00:36:06Exactly.
00:36:06He's going to bomb,
00:36:07bomb India's hydro
00:36:09infrastructure.
00:36:10Not realizing he's a
00:36:11reckless guy, but
00:36:12being reckless, he's
00:36:13also quite silly.
00:36:15He doesn't realize that
00:36:16by bombing any Indian
00:36:18hydropower plant on
00:36:20the Indus river system,
00:36:22the consequences will
00:36:24be, will be felt by
00:36:25the Pakistanis.
00:36:26The, the death and
00:36:27destruction will happen
00:36:28largely downstream in
00:36:30Pakistan, not in India.
00:36:31And if, if in response
00:36:33India were to hit.
00:36:34But it rightly termed a
00:36:35saber rattling, Mr.
00:36:37Jalani.
00:36:37Yeah, but we, but that,
00:36:39that, that should prompt
00:36:40us first to review of no
00:36:44first-use nuclear
00:36:45doctrine.
00:36:46Okay.
00:36:46Can no first-use nuclear
00:36:48doctrine be relevant when
00:36:50there's a, there's a
00:36:52army chief in Pakistan
00:36:54making these kinds of
00:36:56threats?
00:36:57Now, also, when he
00:36:59threatens to dam, to, to
00:37:01bomb India's dams, should
00:37:04be still hew to this
00:37:07government approach of
00:37:09keeping the Indus waters
00:37:10treaty in abeyance?
00:37:11The keeping a treaty in
00:37:13abeyance is not defined in
00:37:14international law.
00:37:15International law only
00:37:16recognizes two things,
00:37:18suspending a treaty or, or
00:37:20abrogating it.
00:37:21India should reconsider its,
00:37:24Indus waters treaty policy
00:37:27too.
00:37:28You know, Mr.
00:37:30Sajanar, would you want to
00:37:31weigh in on what Mr.
00:37:31Brahmachalani, you know,
00:37:33said?
00:37:34Because does clearly, you
00:37:36know, Asim Munir's explicit
00:37:39linkage of water disputes to
00:37:41potential missile nuclear
00:37:42strikes underscore the
00:37:44resource competition, which
00:37:45could, could have far-reaching
00:37:47complications.
00:37:48And how would you reckon
00:37:48India should deal with that?
00:37:51Yeah, definitely.
00:37:52You know, I'd like to respond
00:37:54to a couple of comments that
00:37:55have been made.
00:37:55Number one, you know, it
00:37:57was said that we should not
00:37:58be turning the other cheek.
00:37:59I don't think anyone is
00:38:00turning the other cheek.
00:38:01I think the statements that
00:38:02are emanating from India,
00:38:04from the Ministry of
00:38:05External Affairs and from
00:38:06the Prime Minister are very
00:38:07categorical, that these are
00:38:09our red lines.
00:38:10We have drawn the red lines
00:38:11and we are sticking to
00:38:12those red lines.
00:38:13So, you know, let's be
00:38:14clear on that and let's not
00:38:15sort of, you know, put it
00:38:16that we might be turning
00:38:18the other cheek.
00:38:18Not at all.
00:38:19The second is also on the
00:38:22issue of buying F-35s.
00:38:24You would remember that,
00:38:25you know, Mr. Trump
00:38:26offered F-35s even when
00:38:29Prime Minister Modi was in
00:38:30Washington, D.C. in
00:38:32February.
00:38:33We have not taken up that
00:38:34offer.
00:38:34We realize that F-35 does
00:38:37not meet our needs, our
00:38:39defense community, our
00:38:41air force community has
00:38:42very categorically stated.
00:38:44As far as Munir's
00:38:46statements are concerned,
00:38:48definitely, as I said, you
00:38:49know, we need to raise it
00:38:50with the United States also
00:38:52because, you know, such
00:38:53sort of statements, the
00:38:55rant that he has engaged
00:38:57in, could have been done
00:38:58without F-35 going to do it.
00:38:58I'm running out of time
00:38:59and I want to bring in
00:39:00K.C. Singh in this.
00:39:01Does it really matter or
00:39:02could it really help raising
00:39:03this for the United States
00:39:04of America, though
00:39:05diplomatically we must?
00:39:07Because, you know, Mr. Singh,
00:39:09let's look at what's
00:39:09happened in the last 48
00:39:11hours.
00:39:11You have the Baloch
00:39:12Liberation Army, which has
00:39:14now been labelled as a
00:39:15terrorist outfit.
00:39:16all of that where, you
00:39:19know, where India's role,
00:39:20which Pakistan has never
00:39:21been able to prove in
00:39:22support of the Baloch
00:39:23Army.
00:39:23So these are all, you
00:39:24know, signs which America
00:39:26is giving out, which can
00:39:28be really counter by going
00:39:29back to America and
00:39:31playing the diplomatic
00:39:32game and saying, how can
00:39:33Pakistan do that on
00:39:34American soil?
00:39:36No, I think we should do
00:39:37it.
00:39:38It depends on what level
00:39:39you take it up.
00:39:39It should be taken up at
00:39:40the diplomatic level.
00:39:42The embassies can take it
00:39:43up and so on and so forth.
00:39:44But I don't think it
00:39:46should be done at much
00:39:48higher levels.
00:39:49You don't want to involve
00:39:50Americans in the Indo
00:39:51Park differences.
00:39:53If you recall, that's one
00:39:54of the issues that Trump
00:39:55has because he says, I'm
00:39:57the one who mediated
00:39:59between India and
00:39:59Pakistan.
00:40:00So you don't want to draw
00:40:01Americans into it by
00:40:03doing that.
00:40:03But make the statement
00:40:05certainly and should be
00:40:06forcefully done, which has
00:40:07been done by the Ministry
00:40:08of External Affairs.
00:40:10But we should call in the
00:40:11CDA and read out the
00:40:12right act to him.
00:40:13And a master should in
00:40:16Washington do likewise, go
00:40:17to the State Department
00:40:18and tell them that we
00:40:19would like you to
00:40:20criticize this.
00:40:21How can you put up with
00:40:22a thing like this which
00:40:23is being said in your
00:40:24country?
00:40:25Tomorrow another country
00:40:26comes to India, Iranian
00:40:28leadership comes here and
00:40:30starts cursing you out.
00:40:31How would you react?
00:40:33You know, that needs to be
00:40:34brought to the American
00:40:35attention.
00:40:37All right.
00:40:37You know, it's going to
00:40:37be a tightrope walk.
00:40:38I appreciate all three of
00:40:39you for joining us,
00:40:40gentlemen.
00:40:40Thank you there and giving
00:40:41us your comments.
00:40:42I'm going to quickly, right
00:40:43now, shift focus as we
00:40:44continue to track the story
00:40:46very cleanly on India
00:40:47today.
00:40:48The other developing story
00:40:49over the last 48 hours
00:40:51which not just the Delhi
00:40:53NCR region that has India
00:40:55split down the middle, a
00:40:57Supreme Court order to
00:40:58relocate all stray dogs in
00:41:00Delhi NCR to shelters
00:41:01within eight weeks has
00:41:02sparked massive protests.
00:41:04Several animal rights
00:41:05activists were detained at
00:41:07India Gate with police
00:41:08warnings that interference
00:41:09could lead to contempt of
00:41:11court.
00:41:12Here's more.
00:41:20A howl of protests
00:41:22encounter in Delhi.
00:41:26After the Supreme Court
00:41:28ordered all stray dogs off
00:41:29the streets in eight weeks,
00:41:31protests broke out at
00:41:32India Gate.
00:41:34Rescuers, feeders and dog
00:41:36lovers showed up.
00:41:37So did the cops.
00:41:41Detentions followed.
00:41:43Emotions ran high.
00:41:44The cops armed with
00:41:45top court order to clear
00:41:47the streets of canines
00:41:48or face contempt.
00:41:49Minimum 10,000 dogs
00:41:52for 5 acres.
00:41:53There are 5 acres of
00:41:54land required.
00:41:54So you will find
00:41:56where many of the
00:41:57land in Delhi NCR
00:41:58will be found in Delhi
00:41:59where you will
00:42:00transport more than 3,000,000
00:42:01dogs from there.
00:42:01They will be able to
00:42:03transport them.
00:42:03They will be able to
00:42:04take them one time.
00:42:05They will also do it.
00:42:05Then you need infrastructure
00:42:07for them.
00:42:07You need medical staff.
00:42:09You need staff to
00:42:11care for them.
00:42:12One dog for
00:42:13one month is 5,000.
00:42:15In fact, India today found out that some dog shelters in Delhi are not even properly
00:42:27functional.
00:42:28This is called the MCD ABC unit which is run under the Animal India Trust, it is registered
00:42:36trust and we have knocked two three times but there is no one here to actually open
00:42:40the doors of the shelter, at the moment also you can see that this has been closed from
00:42:47inside and there is no one out here to kind of open the shelter, there are dogs barking
00:42:53inside and we are trying to get in touch with somebody to open the shelter for us but this
00:42:59seems to be the grim reality of the shelters in Delhi at the moment.
00:43:07Amit the crackdown, voices of dissent grew louder.
00:43:12Lok Sabha leader of opposition Rahul Gandhi slammed the Supreme Court order as a step backward
00:43:17calling stray dogs not problems to erase but lives to protect.
00:43:22He called the order cruel, short-sighted and inhumane.
00:43:27BJP leader and noted animal rights activist Menika Gandhi called the Supreme Court ruling
00:43:32strange and delivered out of anger.
00:43:35Her warning, no shelters, no plan, a 15,000 crore budget and chaos lying ahead.
00:43:41You have not seen how many bites are from people's owned dogs which are Videshi dogs.
00:43:49You will find and any study will show you it's 70% pet dogs and 30% street dogs.
00:43:59Delhi Chief Minister Rekha Gupta welcomed the Supreme Court's decision, calling stray dogs
00:44:03a big problem for Delhi.
00:44:05This problem is in which we are standing in front of Delhi.
00:44:10It is to give the government support to give the government support.
00:44:16This is a great pleasure.
00:44:18We will do the work in which we have made the whole society.
00:44:22Caught in this tug of war between humane care and hardline clean-up Delhi faces a crucial
00:44:30question.
00:44:31Can the city find a compassionate way to keep its streets safe without losing its soul?
00:44:37With Rahul Gautam and Anisha Mathur in Delhi, Bureau Report, India Today.
00:44:44Meanwhile there was a stray dog attack in Bengaluru on Tuesday left two female students injured
00:44:48and one of them is critical.
00:44:49The incident took place at about 11am inside the Bengaluru University campus.
00:44:54The victims from Telangana are both third-year students in Dr. B.R.M.
00:44:58Betkar School of Economic University.
00:45:01One student who sustained severe injuries has been admitted to the ICU of a private hospital,
00:45:07while the other is receiving treatment for wounds.
00:45:09Meanwhile, Karnataka Chief Minister Siddharamaya has slammed the Supreme Court order, saying treating
00:45:14stray dogs as a nuisance to be removed is not governance, it's cruelty.
00:45:20All right, so the big questions that we are asking before we go to our panelists, human
00:45:24lives versus animal rights.
00:45:26That's something that has been contended today in a deeply divisive debate, not just in Delhi
00:45:33NCR region for which this order was passed, but across the country.
00:45:37Removal of all stray dogs practical is a question that needs to be answered.
00:45:41And why have current rules failed?
00:45:44What is the root cause of this menace?
00:45:46I want to cut across to Ashir, our USIDO's executive member, Delhi Animal Welfare Board,
00:45:53Ryan Lobo, award-winning filmmaker and photographer.
00:45:56I want to begin with Mr. Lobo, who has penned a huge big column, Mr. Lobo, today advocating
00:46:03the Supreme Court's order, suggesting it is the best thing that could happen right now.
00:46:09Why do you say so?
00:46:11But many people actually feel that this is nothing else but a death sentence, especially
00:46:16in Delhi NCR region where there are 10 lakh dogs and just 20 sterilization centers.
00:46:22Well, I think this whole issue is not necessarily… it should not be framed as an animal welfare
00:46:29issue.
00:46:30It's a human rights issue.
00:46:32And people suffer the effects of stray dogs on the street.
00:46:35And one of the fundamental duties of government by a social contract with its citizens is
00:46:40to provide citizens with safe public spaces.
00:46:44And the ABC rules, which is subordinate legislation to the PCA Act, actually calls for the release
00:46:50of stray dogs post-terilization onto streets.
00:46:54And this is a public health and safety threat.
00:46:58So, the Supreme Court order, which calls for the sheltering of dogs, is actually good for
00:47:03people.
00:47:04And perhaps, if it's done right, also for the dogs who live miserable lives on the street.
00:47:10Dogs suffer terribly being homeless.
00:47:12And stray dogs are a suffering species by virtue of the fact that they are homeless.
00:47:20So, sheltering them would allow the government to perhaps take care of these dogs and at
00:47:24the same time protect human rights.
00:47:27But, you know, you're talking about the fact that if they do it well…
00:47:32Now, what does doing it well mean?
00:47:34Because we really lack the infrastructure.
00:47:36You know, you have 10 lakh dogs where Delhi NCR region is concerned.
00:47:40You have just 20 sterilization centers.
00:47:43Where is the infrastructure to actually implement an order like that?
00:47:47So, let's assume it's not done well.
00:47:49There's a hierarchy of value over here.
00:47:51And what comes first are human rights.
00:47:53So, this was stated very clearly in the Jalikatu judgment, which said the PCA Act, for example,
00:47:59is against unnecessary suffering.
00:48:01It's not against necessary suffering that may be caused so as to uplift human rights
00:48:08or out of human necessity.
00:48:10So, the fact is that dogs are causing a lot of damage on the streets of Delhi.
00:48:14Children are being attacked.
00:48:15Old people are being attacked.
00:48:16You see CCTV footage of horrific attacks all the time.
00:48:19So, regardless of whether it's the dog's fault or somebody stepped on the dog, etc., etc.,
00:48:26humans have a first right to public spaces.
00:48:29Dogs do not.
00:48:30Humans have rights, fundamental rights in India.
00:48:33Dogs do not have fundamental rights.
00:48:36Fact is, I mean everyone is talking about animal rights activists.
00:48:39The constitution does not afford fundamental rights to animals.
00:48:42And that was made very clear in the Supreme Court decision recently, the Jalikatu decision.
00:48:47Alright, okay.
00:48:48But many of the videos that we do see, and I want to bring in, you know, our other panelist,
00:48:52Ashir also into this conversation.
00:48:53But, you know, many of the videos that you do actually see are videos which, you know,
00:48:58these are pet dogs, really not stray dogs that the videos actually come out of.
00:49:02But I'll come back to you.
00:49:03I'll circle back to you, sir.
00:49:04But, Ashir, I want to, you know, I want to pull you in.
00:49:07You've been very vocal, a big advocate of, you know, how this order is practically a death sentence
00:49:13for the likes of dogs where Delhi is concerned.
00:49:15But if you're going through the data, Ashir, and I am going through some of the data,
00:49:19Delhi has one of the most alarming numbers where dog bites are concerned.
00:49:23Many of rabies cases go under-reported in any case.
00:49:27You know, that's also been documented.
00:49:29Well, first of all, you know, I've said this before, and I'll say,
00:49:36this again at the cost of repetition, that dog bites are actually not under-reported.
00:49:43Sorry, they're not, they're over-reported.
00:49:47They're not under-reported.
00:49:48And I'll tell you why.
00:49:49Because we found out from an RTI that, you know, the central government has actually issued a notification,
00:49:57a circular, saying that what state governments do, the health departments, the Director General of Health Services,
00:50:03has issued this letter saying that the state governments actually record a bite as every vial of vaccine that is dispensed.
00:50:12Right? Now, if I get bitten and I take five vaccines, it counts as five different bites.
00:50:17That means that the numbers are inflated to five times the actual number.
00:50:21And we also don't know, like you mentioned, that whether these bites are from stray dogs or are they from pet dogs or from another animal.
00:50:31So these, the old proforma that the state governments were using do not, does not account for any of these details.
00:50:37It also does not document the circumstances of the bite, whether the bite was provoked or unprovoked.
00:50:44So all of these loopholes were kind of fixed by a circular that was shared by the central government last year,
00:50:51where they mandated that all states need to implement this new circular.
00:50:55Now, we're definite that Delhi has not implemented this circular.
00:50:59And the numbers, therefore, are five times what they actually are.
00:51:06They've been projected.
00:51:07The second thing is, again, you know, in terms of numbers, you know, I've heard this number is 10 lakh dogs in Delhi.
00:51:13We're not sure. Someone says 3 lakh dogs, someone says 7 lakh dogs, someone says 10 lakh dogs.
00:51:18There is no official census that's been done.
00:51:20And when you're trying to solve a problem, the scientific way of proceeding towards the solution is to first identify the scale of the problem.
00:51:28So we don't even know how many dogs there are, right?
00:51:32I hope that answers your question.
00:51:34I've got a lot more points, but I'll let you kind of direct the conversation.
00:51:38What is the solution because, Ashir, if you actually do look at the videos, they are horrific, some of them.
00:51:44Many of them come in where packs of dogs are seen attacking a child, you know, an elderly on a morning walk.
00:51:50And they're triggering to many as well.
00:51:52So there has to be a solution to this.
00:51:55Right. So the problem is caused because of the overpopulation of dogs.
00:52:01Now, as everyone knows, you know, when a dog, when a female dog has a litter, there are about, you know, anything upwards of four puppies, right?
00:52:09Four to 10, sometimes 12. And that's the leading cause for the increase in numbers.
00:52:13So that's why that's precisely why the animal birth control rules exist, which is to control the population of the dogs.
00:52:19Right. So when you control the population of the dogs, it automatically reduces the bite instances.
00:52:26But Ashir, you know, at the cost of interrupting you, why am I interrupting you is because if you actually look at the fertility and, you know, where the dogs are concerned,
00:52:35Delhi has done a bismal in that, Uttar Pradesh, you know, seemingly the kind of figures that I see are far better where Delhi comes into play.
00:52:43So Delhi really does have a dog menace problem. It does.
00:52:47It does. It does. And it also has a corruption problem where the municipal cooperation of Delhi is, you know, running 20 ABC centers.
00:52:55Now, you, I'm glad that you mentioned UP because when you look at the Lucknow ABC center, they set up a model ABC center.
00:53:02And it's just one center in the entire city. And they've managed to, you know, sterilize almost the entire street dog population of the city, just one center.
00:53:11And because this is a model center and it's something that we can use as a model to look up to.
00:53:17So Delhi should look at how cities like Lucknow and Dehradun have function, how states like Goa have, you know, successfully implemented the ABC program,
00:53:26how Sikkim has gone dog free, how Bhutan as a nation has gone rabies free.
00:53:30There are several instances of how the ABC program has been scientifically implemented at both a country wide level, at a state level, at a city level, at an institutional level and universities.
00:53:41We've got data where, you know, at a university, we sterilized, you know, about 70, 80% of the dogs aggressively in a year and a half.
00:53:48And the numbers went from 600 to 250 within five years.
00:53:51So there are success stories everywhere when you see it.
00:53:54But what's happening in Delhi is that there are 20 ABC centers.
00:53:58And we found out from RTI, we actually created an elaborate report that was submitted to the government.
00:54:05It's also presented to the High Court in a matter where, you know, some of the numbers that these centers, the Municipal Corporation of Delhi is claiming to have achieved.
00:54:16According to their data, in fact, that was submitted to the Supreme Court, they say that there were seven lakh dogs sterilized in the last seven years,
00:54:24which means that Delhi should be, should be, you know, completely sterilized by now.
00:54:29But it's not true.
00:54:30Okay.
00:54:31So the numbers are highly indicated.
00:54:32The budget was allocated.
00:54:34The budget was spent.
00:54:35So what happened to the money?
00:54:36That's the question that needs to be asked.
00:54:38But we're still left with the problem where the citizens are concerned.
00:54:41And Ryan Loba, I just want to ask you one final question, because many would suggest, you know,
00:54:45you might want first world streets and roads in societies, but we're not a first world country.
00:54:50If you take dogs out, you're removing an important scavenging unit in how the ecosystem of, you know, Delhi actually works.
00:54:57What happens to, you know, what if we have a population of cats then, which is bejorning?
00:55:01We have rodents.
00:55:03We have to think of all of that, right?
00:55:05Actually, that's absolutely not true.
00:55:08Dogs defecate.
00:55:09So you have five lakh dogs defecating every day and dog feces are highly pathogenic.
00:55:14It's not a question of wanting to be like a first world country.
00:55:17It's a question of adhering to law in the Indian constitution, which affords all of us our fundamental rights.
00:55:23See, the problem is…
00:55:24Mr. Loba, how does dogs defecating have anything to do with the fact that they're a part of the scavenging ecosystem where Delhi NCR is concerned?
00:55:31There's no such thing as a scavenging ecosystem, first of all.
00:55:34This is propaganda from animal rights organizations.
00:55:38See, the problem is stray dogs and their negative effects.
00:55:41And the solution cannot be maintaining stray dogs on the road.
00:55:45And that is what the ABC rules mandate and call for.
00:55:48They call for feeding and maintaining huge populations of stray dogs on the road.
00:55:53So even if a stray dog is sterilized or vaccinated, it can still bite you.
00:55:57It can still cause a traffic accident.
00:55:59It can still howl at night and keep you awake.
00:56:01And all these are fundamental rights.
00:56:03These are not normal rights.
00:56:04These are fundamental rights guaranteed to people.
00:56:07Okay, Ashir, this is all propaganda.
00:56:10But it's not…
00:56:11It's the law.
00:56:12It's not…
00:56:13I'm making this up.
00:56:14It's actually a part of the PCA Act, which is the parent legislation…
00:56:17No, no, I'm just…
00:56:18Because I'm not an animal rights activist.
00:56:20I actually sit right in the middle where this debate is on opinion.
00:56:23But I want to bring in Ashir because Ashir will be able to…
00:56:26If there is…
00:56:27It's…
00:56:28You know…
00:56:29Because I've been made to believe that you do need dogs where the Delhi ecosystem is concerned.
00:56:35Ashir, am I correct or wrong?
00:56:36You're absolutely wrong.
00:56:38No, I want to bring in an animal rights activist on this.
00:56:41Go ahead, Ashir.
00:56:42In the 1600s, in the 1600s, you know, in London, they killed off all the street dogs, right?
00:56:51Because they thought that, you know, street dogs were dirty.
00:56:53And what resulted was that 60 to 70% of the population, the human population of London
00:56:59perished in what was called, you know, the Black Death because rats, the rat population increased.
00:57:05And this is there.
00:57:06You can Google it.
00:57:07You can read about it.
00:57:08The rat population increased because the dogs, you know, were kind of wiped out.
00:57:12And 60% of the London population perished.
00:57:15The Surat plague is another example where dogs were removed from the streets and the rat population increased.
00:57:21And there are several other examples where, you know, this happens.
00:57:24And just to talk about the Supreme Court order, when you pick up large numbers of dogs from the streets,
00:57:30A, it creates a vacuum, you know, in the ecosystem where either new, unsterilized, unvaccinated
00:57:36dogs replace friendly dogs or the cat population would increase, which creates a different set of problems.
00:57:43Or the rodent population will increase.
00:57:44All right.
00:57:45Twenty seconds, Mr. Lobo.
00:57:46I need to close my show.
00:57:47Go ahead, Mr. Lobo.
00:57:48Make your point.
00:57:49As a biologist, that is grossly untrue.
00:57:52For example, dogs do not necessarily kill enough rats to be in effective control of rats.
00:57:57You go walk down any street at night in Delhi and you see rats feeding alongside with dogs.
00:58:03It's absolutely not true.
00:58:05And dogs, besides transmitting rats, transmit a whole bunch of other diseases.
00:58:09For example, leptospirosis.
00:58:11Okay.
00:58:12All right.
00:58:13You know, I'm going to leave it at that.
00:58:14I'm going to leave it at that.
00:58:15We're going to leave it for our viewers to decide.
00:58:16And most of our viewers have very, very strong views on this story, either side of the divide.
00:58:22Either you're on the side of what the Supreme Court said or those who were today protesting at India Gate for dog rights.
00:58:29A quick break.
00:58:30Stay with me on the other side.
00:58:31My colleague, Akshita takes over.
00:59:01I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:02I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:03I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:04I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:05I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:06I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:07I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:08I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:09I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:10I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:11I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:12I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:13I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:14I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:15I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:16I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:17I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:18I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:19I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:20I'm going to leave it at that.
00:59:21What's still ahead of us?
00:59:30Ahead of us
00:59:33Chandigarh, Coimbaltour, NCR and Bangalore
00:59:37Jayapur, Ahmedabad, Raipur and Hyderabad
00:59:40We've been here, we've been there
00:59:44Vekar's been just everywhere
00:59:51Vekar's been just everywhere
01:00:21JK.Puncha-Gahtire
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01:00:28Ab Joke.Puncha-Gahtire
01:00:29Shrivaashtav Ji
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