- 4 months ago
This episode of India Today covers two major developing stories: violent protests in Ladakh and turbulence in India-US relations.
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00:00Hello and welcome to an India Today special broadcast. I'm Gaurav Savant. On India First, our key focus, discussions and dialogue between India and the United States of America on the trade deal.
00:12Now, U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, he's described India as a critical partner. He said words to the effect that India and the United States of America are working close together. He said that India is a critical partner and there are conversations that are happening not just on energy and trade, but also on defense.
00:36We'll talk about this in greater detail. Is this relationship heading in the right direction? Is this just friction or are there now structural damage that's been done to this relationship, especially after U.S. President Donald Trump at the United Nations General Assembly at the 80th session of the UNGA said that the U.S.
00:59U.S. had a role to play in the ceasefire between India and Pakistan or his role in bringing an end to that war, which India has repeatedly said is not true.
01:09Trade talks amid Trump tariff threat.
01:23External affairs ministry calls for fair, not just free trade.
01:29We today approach world affairs united, fair and transparent economic practices that democratize production and enhance economic security.
01:39Goyal pushes fair, bilateral trade deal.
01:47Mixed messaging from Washington.
01:54Rubio emphasizes ties with India critically.
02:02But Trump blames India for Ukraine war.
02:06China and India are the primary funders of the ongoing war by continuing to purchase Russian oil.
02:15India's balance versus Trump's bluster.
02:19That is our big focus on India first.
02:21There's breaking news that's coming in from the Union territory of Ladakh.
02:33The situation in Ladakh right now is very precarious.
02:36Four people have been killed.
02:38A large number of people have been injured.
02:4070 by some accounts.
02:41A large number of people have also been detained.
02:43And this after violence broke out and a rampaging mob went and targeted the office of the Bharatiya Janata Party.
02:54Right now, the situation is such that the district administration has clamped section 163 of the Bharatiya Nagarik Suraksha Sahita.
03:06Mandates not more than four people can assemble in any one area.
03:14And look at these images that we are playing out on your television screen.
03:17There is an apprehension that there could be disturbance to public peace and danger to human life.
03:25And this after violent protests left four people dead and more than 70 injured.
03:30As the rampaging mob torched vehicles that targeted the BJP office in Leh and a part of the Ladakh Autonomous Hill Council building.
03:40Initial reports seem to indicate that the protesters had assembled outside the BJP office in Leh to register their protest over the centre.
03:47Not resuming talks with representatives of the people of Ladakh over a series of demands including statehood and sixth scheduled status that tops that list.
04:02Now, Sonam Vangchuk, who is leading the apex body of these protesters had appealed for calm warning that violence will derail the fight for Ladakh's rights.
04:15Police have detained more than 100 protesters but the situation right now remains extremely tense.
04:21What's also of significant importance is, is there an attempt being made very systematically to foment trouble?
04:27We've already seen what's happened in India's neighbourhood are similar elements or same elements getting activated even in our country.
04:38This is something that the police are also investigating at this stage.
04:43Look at the funders of movements that have taken place in India's neighbourhood.
04:50And that's been a cause for grave concern that are outside forces trying to foment trouble in India.
05:00Suddenly, a rampaging crowd starts torching vehicles on the streets and then setting buildings on fire.
05:10Is all of this following a template?
05:12There's another very disturbing question right now, what is it that the administration was doing when there were intelligence inputs about possibility of fomenting trouble and fueling fires in India?
05:26Why was the administration caught napping each time?
05:30We will get you more on this story as inputs come in.
05:35We will get you more on this story as well.
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06:08Then our persec incubating away musizing alias WATTI
06:08Let's 5 minutes have to utilize the trials against the fried shots and amdala
06:10So, everything together is possible we will get you more on this side.
06:12What's the administration we use to make?
06:18Therefore, we will continue to relieve durant thehisattaki fasep real salutes.
06:20Therefore, we will continue toi-sexy radicalinging bisa,
06:20とかangan helmets,
06:27Our legal skills will be more on this field,
06:30Reservation Experiment
06:31I would like to give you a wish.
06:34If there is a way that comes from this way,
06:39then we will be able to reach the logical conclusion to this work.
06:46We will be able to reach the logical conclusion to this work.
06:51We will be able to keep everything in peace.
06:56And as soon as possible, we will start this work.
07:26Well, Gaurav, the anger was brewing up.
07:33As you rightly explained, this was not the first protest or call of its kind.
07:39Previously, all these protests were very peaceful
07:41because the person who was heading it believed in non-violent forms of protests.
07:46Sonam Wongchuk was on a hunger strike, 15 days hunger strike.
07:49He was called for a bandh and then it was also supported by the lay epic's body.
07:54This morning, as the bandh came into force at one location, the violence started.
08:00And the nature of this is that we know previously also in several occurrences,
08:04you have violence immediately spills over.
08:07It takes under various other areas and the same thing has happened.
08:12It started at location, then it spilled over.
08:15And soon you had violence, rioting, public property being damaged,
08:20vehicles being torched at multiple locations.
08:23Police, we know, Ladakh, they do not have the experience of tackling such kind of protests
08:28because previously we have seldom seen this kind of violence.
08:31So they were caught literally on the back foot.
08:34They did not know how to react.
08:35And by the time they reacted, there was a lot of violence already.
08:38BJP office was torched, several vehicles torched, highway was blocked,
08:42and a lot of damage to life and property.
08:45Then the police resulted to firing.
08:47We have been told that four people were killed in this.
08:49There are others who are also injured.
08:51And we know when there is casualty, it only adds fuel to the fire.
08:55Exactly that's what has happened.
08:56They are trying to impose curfew right now.
08:58Curfew has been imposed.
08:59There is calm.
09:00But we know situation is tense.
09:02Though Sonam Vangchuk has come out and appealed for peace,
09:05he said that whoever is doing this is against the interests and against their agenda,
09:10which obviously is through peaceful means.
09:12He is trying to do that.
09:13So just remain peaceful.
09:15Same appeal from the left-hand governor, Kavinder Gupta.
09:18We will have to wait and see how this unfolds tomorrow.
09:21It's a very critical day.
09:22But as you rightly said, all angles being looked into whether there is some external influence to this.
09:28We know what has happened in the neighborhood.
09:30Well, almost in every country where there have been protests, especially in Nepal.
09:33So that is very critical.
09:35But right now, the focus is on to take control of the situation, ensure there is no more rioting,
09:40and then take it from here.
09:41And that's exactly what the left-hand governor has also said.
09:44Back to you.
09:48Beneficiaries of foreign aid.
09:50Beneficiaries of foreign aid, their role in fueling trouble, is that being looked into,
09:55is something that India must investigate in the right earnest.
10:00There's more breaking news that's coming in.
10:02Meir, stay with me.
10:04The crackdown on the terrorists and terror supporters after Operation Sindur continues.
10:10And these are those who'd helped the terrorists, the Pakistani terrorists who came and targeted.
10:1526 people were killed.
10:17Hindus were singled out and massacred in Pehelgam in front of their wives and children.
10:23And a local person from Kashmir.
10:28And his name is Mohamed Yusuf Kataria.
10:33Mohamed Yusuf Kataria has now been arrested by the police in Jammu and Kashmir.
10:40He's reported to have provided assistance and logistics support to these terrorists who came in from Pakistan.
10:48I want to once again bring in Meir Fareed for more on the story.
10:53Meir, what more do we know of this Mohamed Yusuf Kataria?
10:57And what role did he have to play in aiding those Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorists who came from Pakistan
11:04and massacred innocent Hindus and Indians in Jammu and Kashmir in Pehelgam?
11:09Well Gaurav, we know the investigation right now is at a stage where you can call it a reverse investigation.
11:20They're trying to figure out each and every angle.
11:23And the most important part is that once this Lashkar squad infiltrated, who all helped them?
11:29I mean they were, it's not just about Pehelgam attack but they were here months before the Pehelgam attack.
11:35So who all helped them especially when they were trying to move towards the South Kashmir areas
11:40and especially Anat Nag through Kulgaam.
11:42There were reports that they were helped by OGW's people especially who live on the higher reaches.
11:48Now this person came under the scanner once the belongings or the weapons and especially the mobile devices
11:55of these three terrorists were looked into and his name cropped up.
12:01There was a detailed investigation.
12:02They had brought a charger, a mobile charger from a shop in Kulgaam.
12:06From there they got further leads and finally they came to, this buck stopped at his place.
12:12This person was arrested.
12:14And now we have come to know that he helped these terrorists when they were in Kulgaam
12:19moving through the South Kashmir areas.
12:21And this was almost four, five months before the Pehelgam attack.
12:25While he has no direct role in the Pehelgam attack but for their survival and by providing them logistics
12:31he ensured that he helped them while they were staying in the forest area.
12:36So that's what they're telling us.
12:38And he's a teacher by profession, a seasonal teacher.
12:41He's from Mazama area of Kulgaam.
12:44And right now he has been detained.
12:46He's under arrest.
12:47And his questioning is underway.
12:49So all these angles are being looked into.
12:51Keep tracking that story.
12:52I will come back to you for more.
12:54It's very important to crack down on the overground workers.
12:58Because unless these Pakistani terrorists get local support of these overground workers of terrorist organizations,
13:06whether it's Lashkar-e-Taiba or Jaish-e-Mohammed, whatever secular name like the resistance front they may try to give these radical Islamist organizations,
13:14the fact remains these terrorists will be like fish out of water.
13:19It's because of local support that they're able to survive.
13:22And that is why it's very important to continue draining the pond to ensure there is no overground worker who assists these elements.
13:31Evidence-based prosecution and punishment is required.
13:35Let me now cut back to our top story.
13:37And that is the visit of the External Affairs Minister Dr. S. Jai Shankar to the 80th session of the United Nations General Assembly,
13:45where he's representing India and Commerce Secretary Piyush Goyal and his interactions with his counterparts in the United States of America.
13:53So U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, he said India is a relationship, a partnership of critical importance.
14:00External Affairs Minister Dr. Jai Shankar, while he was addressing countries of the Global South,
14:06he said developing countries have been let down by the West.
14:11And it's not just the Russia-Ukraine war or the Israel-Iran or the Israel-Hamas war,
14:16but it's also that predictability that is not there and new rules of the game that keep coming in.
14:23The arbitrariness with which developments are taking place.
14:28We have an excellent panel of experts joining us on the show, but before that, this report.
14:41Trade winds are shifting and it is high-stakes game of global chess.
14:45We meet external affairs minister S. Jai Shankar at a high-level meeting of like-minded global south countries,
14:53warned of growing challenges facing the developing world.
14:57The global south in particular is confronted with a set of challenges which have heightened in the first half of this decade.
15:06They include the shocks of the Covid pandemic, two major conflicts in Ukraine and Gaza,
15:14extreme climate events,
15:17volatility in trade,
15:19uncertainty in investment flows and interest rates,
15:24and the catastrophic slowing down of the SDG agenda.
15:30He also went on to call for fair trade and shorter chain supplies.
15:34As like-minded global south countries, we today approach world affairs united and through a broad set of principles and concepts.
15:46And these include, one, fair and transparent economic practices that democratize production and enhance economic security.
15:55A stable environment for balanced and sustainable economic interactions, including more south-south trade investment and technology collaborations.
16:09In New York, India's Commerce Minister Piyush Goel is in talks with US trade representatives to revive the stalled bilateral trade deal discussions.
16:19We are working in India to support the private efforts on nuclear power and to sort out the issue of liability that is held by nuclear power between the US and India.
16:38Sources say India-US trade talks are looking positive, with US Secretary Rubio playing a key role in reviving discussions.
16:46If progress continues, a Quad summit is likely before year-end.
16:51And a Trump visit to India for the summit is being planned.
16:55US Secretary of State Marco Rubio flagged tensions with India over Russian oil buys,
17:01calling ties critical but in a need of a fix.
17:05But mixed messaging continues.
17:08Trump, in his UNG address, blasted India and China for buying Russian oil, accusing them of funding the Ukraine war.
17:16China and India are the primary funders of the ongoing war by continuing to purchase Russian oil.
17:22But inexcusably, even NATO countries have not cut off much Russian energy and Russian energy products.
17:32Which, as you know, I found out about two weeks ago and I wasn't happy.
17:35Think of it.
17:37They are funding the war against themselves.
17:41China has hit back, pointing out that the US and EU also trade with Moscow.
17:47India and China are not the only nations trading with Russia.
17:51Beijing warned of countermeasures if its trade with Russia is obstructed.
17:57Trade deals, global games and power plays.
18:00India is making move amid a complex world puzzle.
18:04If all goes well, a big Quad meet is likely before 2025 wraps up.
18:10Making sure India's voice rings loud on the global stage.
18:14Bureau Report, India Today.
18:18So let's try and make sense of these latest developments.
18:20Joining me on this India Today special broadcast is Ambassador Kamal Sibal, former Foreign Secretary of India.
18:26Also with me, Sushant Sareen, Senior Fellow at the Observer Research Foundation.
18:30And Arun Kumar Sharma, Senior Associate Chair of the India and Emerging Asia Economies Center for Strategic and International Studies.
18:37Ambassador Sybil, Ambassador Sybil, your appreciation of Secretary of State Marco Rubio saying India is a relationship of critical importance and President Trump at UNGA saying countries like India and China are primary funders of the war on Ukraine.
18:55Is America sending mixed signals, sir?
18:59Well, first of all, when Rubio tweeted or put his post on X after meeting an external federal minister, there was absolutely no reference to relationship with India being of critical importance or any reference to Quad.
19:13It was a very tough statement focusing on the agenda which Trump has outlined in terms of putting pressure on us with regard to trade matters and sanctions and what have you.
19:30So it's only the State Department subsequently, whether as a result of some comments that may have been made here and there, issued a statement in which there were references to India, a relationship with India being of critical importance and a reference to Quad.
19:52So it's good that they made some amends to say that they still attach importance to India and the State Department's agenda is not simply that of Harvard Lutnik or Besant, the Treasurer Secretary or for that matter Peter Navarro.
20:11That's one aspect.
20:12The second is what Trump said at the UNGA.
20:15He blasted everybody, everybody.
20:16But I was surprised when he said that it's only a couple of weeks ago I learned that Europe was buying, NATO countries were buying energy from Russia.
20:27I mean, they've been buying energy ever since 2022.
20:32And we have been pointing out repeatedly, even the external affairs minister, how Europe actually is a big buyer of Russian energy.
20:41But this escaped Trump's attention and he only came to this couple of weeks ago.
20:46Either he is being economical with the truth or his advisors don't advise him properly about the realities on the ground and therefore let him say what he wants to say with regard to India being responsible for continuing the war.
21:01Now, in the same speech, or for that matter, later on when he met Zelensky and made a post on Truth Social, he says that I'm going to give arms to NATO and they can transfer it to Ukraine the way Ukraine wants to deal with them and he's going to make money out of this.
21:23And he has trashed Russia as a paper tiger and this and that and surprisingly said that Ukraine can regain the territory it has lost.
21:34So, who is fueling this war?
21:35So, who is fueling this war?
21:36Europe is fueling this war.
21:38Trump himself is fueling this war and unnecessarily scapegoating India which is buying Russian oil legally.
21:47Oil is not sanctioned.
21:49We are buying at discounted price.
21:51We are not violating anything.
21:53Absolutely.
21:54It has power play.
21:55It has power play.
21:56It is bullying.
21:57And there it is.
21:58And that would this this it's power play and bullying.
22:01Does this indicate, Sushant Sari, that means that that the trade deal is unlikely to get anywhere or are these just negotiating leavers?
22:09If they see India bends, they gain.
22:12If they see India does not bend, then a trade deal happens.
22:15They tried and they did not succeed either ways.
22:18Yeah, Gaurav, I think over the last six months, the one thing which you cannot do is predict what will happen tomorrow.
22:26We thought we already had a trade deal and then the Americans reneged on it last minute, right?
22:32So, now we are saying, okay, fine, let us see if you can do something more to get this trade deal back on track.
22:38Even if you get it back on track, what is the certainty that the, you know, the Americans will sign on it?
22:44Assuming they sign on it, how do you know that they are not going to keep changing the goalposts?
22:49Dealing with America is now as difficult as dealing with any third world country.
22:54I don't want to name any country, but, you know, any country with a capricious leadership where you don't know what tomorrow will bring and what day after will bring.
23:03Look at the kind of uncertainty, whether it's on visas, whether it's on investments.
23:08You name the damn thing and there is no clarity on what direction the United States is going to take.
23:15So, whether or not you have a trade deal, I don't know how much difference it's going to make.
23:20And, you know, maybe, of course, people with a stake in the system will continue to soldier on, but for most of the people who were thinking of building up some kind of a trade relationship, some kind of an economic relationship, I think they are going to be extremely wary of dealing with the United States, not just in India, but around the world.
23:39So, one is on this whole trade deal thing. Now, if this is the way you put, you know, Ambassador Sybil is out here, he's a diplomat.
23:48There are ways and means of putting pressure, using levers of power, not the way these guys are doing it.
23:55You know, instead of writing art of the deal, Trump ideally should have written a book, the art of alienating people and making enemies out of friends.
24:05That's what he is trying to do. He is scrapping on everybody.
24:09Absolutely. That's exactly what he appears to be doing.
24:12Yeah, so… And Mr. Sharma, Professor Sharma, does this indicate, you know, Sushant Sarin pointed out, it's the art of destroying a deal.
24:21Where is that trust in the United States of America anymore? Even if a deal is negotiated, this administration, can you even trust Donald Trump?
24:31Or is it wise to just ride out this storm for another three, three and a half years?
24:36Yeah, I've said, Gaurav, on the last couple of panels we've been on, that I believe this is a deliberate strategy on the part of President Trump to, A, be unpredictable, number one, deliberately, so that keeps everybody off balance.
24:52And that's kind of, in a way, he's done business in the past, that's number one.
24:57And number two, I think the whole idea of optimizing to get the best deal, it's his own way.
25:04Now, what he doesn't realize is that it is creating long-term, I would say, disadvantage for the United States for a perceived short-term game.
25:14So right now, he's playing like any other transaction, good cop-back-cop game.
25:19So you have a really tough statement coming out of, you know, one communication or one interaction, and then a conciliatory statement that is coming out subsequently from a different source, or even from the same source as President Trump himself.
25:33And the other thing that you notice, not only in India, we talk about all other countries.
25:38He's taken extreme positions, and then forgets about them, because they're not tactically, you know, relevant for him at that time.
25:45You know, he wanted to annex Greenland, he wanted to annex Canada.
25:48Now, none of those things appear on his radar, and they might appear tomorrow.
25:52Because this is the challenge we're dealing with the United States in this format, that he's completely transactional, and he's completely focused on optimizing, trying to get the best deal, by all means necessary.
26:07That is, unfortunately, the reality, that he's using everything necessary.
26:11Okay, Ambassador Sybil, do you see a deal happen?
26:15Do you see a deal happen at all?
26:17Or will it be perhaps postponed for yet more rounds of negotiation, because they seek access to Indian agriculture, which no Indian government would give them access to?
26:29Well, I'm a bit skeptical.
26:31I might be proved wrong.
26:33Because what will happen is that even if some deal is struck between Piyush Goyal and Jamie Sung Grier, and both sides feel that they have made some progress,
26:44when it lands on Trump's table, we don't know what he'll do.
26:48He may not be satisfied.
26:49What he really wants is to humiliate India.
26:52He wants India to make public its commitments in certain areas before the deal is announced.
27:01That you're going to invest X amounts in the United States, you're going to buy X amount of LNG, you're going to buy X amount of defense equipment.
27:10He would want that.
27:12Because the whole game is precisely that, to humiliate and come out as the winner, and to be able to say that he extracted millions and billions and trillions for the United States.
27:26He's been doing that.
27:27The manner in which he has humiliated South Korea, Japan, the European Union, why should he deal with us differently?
27:34Even Vietnam, he has humiliated.
27:36So why should he treat us differently?
27:39And there are red lines which no Indian government can cross, and therefore there are limits.
27:44We can, on the sidelines, a little bit, import some dairy products under quotas, also maybe some corn under quotas for animal consumption.
27:55Some things can be done, but this is not going to satisfy him, because soybean and corn production in the United States has reached a record level, and they can't sell it because China is not buying it.
28:09So there are a lot of uncertainties ahead, and there's one last thing I want to say.
28:14You haven't asked me the question, but let me say it.
28:15We should play down this quad summit in October.
28:18Don't have this summit.
28:20The manner in which he has performed at the United Nations, when he comes here and speaks to the press, he can say anything.
28:26And he can embarrass the government of India.
28:29And in any case, he has more or less disowned the quad.
28:34His whole thrust towards China is not in that direction.
28:38This is just a caution.
28:39That's a very important point you're making.
28:41The last 30 seconds that I have on this part of the show.
28:45Okay.
28:46Sushant Sareen, would you agree?
28:48Let's not have the quad summit of this is how Donald Trump is to behave.
28:52You know, I imagine Sybil has taken the words out of my mouth.
28:57I was just going to say that.
28:58See, I'll tell you the problem.
29:00The problem is the Indians are, one, constantly talking about quad and constantly saying that,
29:05yes, you know, despite all the tensions in the relationship, the defense part of the relationship remains pretty much robust.
29:12The strategic partnership remains very much in place.
29:15That is one of your leverages against the Americans.
29:18You can't have it that you are dumping on me everything.
29:22You know, you're taking a dump on me all the time.
29:24And then you expect that I tell you that the strategic part of the relationship is all very well.
29:30This is partly your leverage.
29:32And this is partly what you have to use.
29:35And this constant refrain that we hope Trump will come in October, November, December next year.
29:41Why the hell are we so keen on his coming out here?
29:44What is he going to come out here and do?
29:46In any case, that trade deal which Majdan Sybil is talking about, we had already accepted.
29:52We were already ready to buy more energy from the Americans.
29:55We were already ready to do a lot of other things which would kind of balance the trade.
30:00Yet they want to shove things down our throat which we don't want.
30:04Now, this is like a shopkeeper telling somebody that you have to take the stuff I want to sell you,
30:09not the stuff which you want from me.
30:11It doesn't work like that, does it?
30:13Finally, it's one thing to deal with unpredictability and act unpredictable if you are doing a real estate deal, right?
30:23If you are a construction magnate.
30:25This is not how you deal in diplomacy.
30:27This is not how you deal with other countries, other peoples.
30:30There are a lot of sensitivities involved.
30:32Clearly not how you deal with strategic partners.
30:36Absolutely.
30:37Especially when you are dealing with civilizational states and this is something that Donald Trump or anyone dealing with India,
30:44they may take time to understand this, but sooner than later, they will understand this.
30:49And especially when they see and hopefully that India stands together and the entire nation keeps India first.
30:57To all my guests, many thanks for joining me.
30:59Varsh tad bharat namah bharati yatra santiti.
31:04This is how the Vishnu Puran describes bharat varsh.
31:09Land to the north of the oceans, land to the south of the Himalayas.
31:13That is bharat varsh.
31:15That is the land of bharat vasis.
31:19My guest today on the Chakraview Podcast is best-selling author, diplomat, writer, podcaster, producer, Amish.
31:30Amish, welcome.
31:33With the Chola Tigers, the Avengers of Somnath.
31:37I want to begin by asking you, Amish, why you chose these lines from the Vishnu Puran to describe bharat varsh when you talk about the Chol Vansh?
31:48You know, I think there are many things around the discussions about our history which trouble me, which irritate me.
32:02Various things like, you know, Indians, they never wrote anything.
32:07We were an oral culture.
32:09Apparently, the British came and somehow saved us, which is nonsense.
32:13Ancient Indians wrote a hell of a lot, more than the rest of the ancient world combined.
32:17Or that, you know, we were basically just losing thousand years of defeats.
32:23I have some views on that too.
32:24We'll discuss that with this book.
32:26But a third thing that really troubles me is this, there was no India.
32:30And that the British created us.
32:32So we should be thankful to the British.
32:34Right?
32:37And this is utter nonsense, actually.
32:41Which is why I wanted to start with this line.
32:43Because when they say that there was no India, they are essentially asking for textual evidence to prove that it wasn't the British, but our ancestors who created India.
32:55There are many textual evidences.
32:57This line, these lines from the Vishnu Puran is just one of them.
33:02It's very clear.
33:03North of the ocean, south of the Himalaya lies the nation, Varsham, lies the nation of Bharat.
33:08And there live the descendants of Bharat.
33:10There the Bharatwasis live.
33:13Our ancestors created India.
33:15It's evidenced in the Vishnu Puran.
33:17There are various other textual evidences.
33:19And we can discuss that if you want.
33:21But the British didn't create India.
33:23We shouldn't give them credit for stuff that they didn't do.
33:26But what about, I mean, I'll come to the Chola Tigers in just a moment.
33:30But what about those who say, fine, there were these villages and they had their chieftains.
33:36Or there may have been the Magad empire.
33:38You know, there may have been empires in the past.
33:41But they did not control the whole country.
33:44The manner in which, for example, the Mughals did.
33:46No one else controlled the country like the Mughals or the British.
33:51That's the traditional historical perspective we've been taught.
33:54Not true.
33:55The Mauren empire was far bigger than the Mughals at their empire.
33:58And the correct term is actually Temurid, not Mughals.
34:01We call them Mughals.
34:02They call themselves Temurid.
34:04Descendants of Temur.
34:06It's evidenced by their seals, by the way.
34:08You know, we think Babur is the founder of their dynasty.
34:11They themselves thought of Temur as the founder.
34:14So that's how their circular seals were structured.
34:17So Temurids.
34:18But the Mauryans controlled far more than the Temurid Mughals ever did.
34:23The Temurid Mughals, you could argue that their administration did not extend to all of India.
34:29Their core area of control was between Lahore and Agra.
34:33Whereas the Mauryans, as is evidenced in the texts such as Arthashastra and various stone pillars, various other things, the roads that they build, it's all evidenced out there.
34:48They actually ran an effective administration, which ran those places.
34:53To be fair, the British also ran an effective administration.
34:57But you know, when in our history books, they say that Allaudin Khulji controlled all of India.
35:04Or Aurangzeb controlled all of India.
35:08Allaudin Khulji only lived in Delhi.
35:10If they are showing Tamil Nadu and Karnataka as a part of Allaudin Khulji's empire,
35:15the only thing that happened was he raided those areas, looted them and went back to Delhi.
35:19That doesn't mean running the place.
35:21Right?
35:22His administration did not, his writ did not run in those areas.
35:25No.
35:26Not at all.
35:27There were times when Aurangzeb wanted temples in Varanasi destroyed.
35:33He couldn't implement it because his writ did not run there.
35:36And even though his capital…
35:39He would have collected loot from there.
35:41Yes.
35:42His capital was Agra and he could not even have his writ prevailed in Varanasi.
35:45So, in many of these empires in the last millennium, you could argue they didn't run an effective administration
35:54across all these places.
35:56The places that are shown as a part of their empire in our history textbooks,
36:00large parts of it they could loot whenever they want.
36:03Yes, that's a fact.
36:04But to give credit to the British, yes, the British actually administered many of those lands,
36:11including those that were called the princely states.
36:14In effect, the British administered at least their revenue policies, no doubt.
36:19It's interesting you mentioned the Mughals.
36:21And when they say Mughals ruled this country from 1526 when Babur invaded India to, let's say,
36:28I'm not coming to 1857 because barely was Bahadur Shah Zafar an emperor in name,
36:34especially after the Peshwas came in, the later Mughals post 1707.
36:38So, it's actually from Akbar 1556 to 1707.
36:43That's all that the Mughals have ruled for about 150 odd years.
36:47And even Akbar controlled much of conquered large parts of India, more in the late 1560s and 1570s.
36:57So, the effective rule actually began around that time, 1570s.
37:04And even there, the Bhartiya kings were always fighting for their freedom.
37:11This is a strand which we often don't talk about.
37:14For example, Maharana Pratap is dismissed as just a small ruler of Mewad.
37:19He was much more.
37:20But I'll come to Maharana Pratap in a moment.
37:22There were rebellions all the time, even from, forget about, from the big kings.
37:27Even from communities which were relative to the Temurid Mughals, relatively powerless.
37:33Akbar was among the better Temurid Mughal rulers.
37:37That cannot be denied.
37:39But where do you think his body is?
37:42Where is his body?
37:44It should be in Akbar's tomb.
37:47Yeah.
37:48Yeah, it's not there.
37:49Okay.
37:50There was a Jat rebellion.
37:51This was during the time of Aurangzeb.
37:54Akbar's tomb had been attacked.
37:56His body by the Jat.
37:58Because they attacked Agra.
38:01From what I recall, they killed the Mughal governor.
38:05Agra, which is a heartland.
38:07And Akbar's body was dragged out of his tomb and burnt by the Jats.
38:13So, let me just take a step back.
38:16When you write about the Chola Tigers, you want our people to know that we had great kings.
38:25Even if you were to compare the Mughals and the Chola dynasty, Mughals in their zenith,
38:32150 years or in their entirety, 350 odd years, 330 years.
38:37What about the Cholas?
38:39Close to a thousand years in all phases.
38:42So, look the way I see it, the lack of balance in our history, particularly in the last thousand
38:53years, is that it is more the history of our invaders rather than the history of our ancestors
38:59who fought those invaders.
39:03And were there some among the invaders who were relatively better?
39:08No doubt.
39:09Yes, there were.
39:10There were some among British administrators also who were relatively better.
39:14So, some of the Adil Shahi rulers who are completely ignored in our history books.
39:21So, I don't see it as a Hindu-Muslim issue.
39:23It's more a Delhi, non-Delhi issue.
39:25The Adil Shahis are completely ignored even though Bijapur was a bigger city than Delhi
39:31or Agra after Vijayanagar was destroyed for a few decades.
39:34Right?
39:35But they are completely ignored because they didn't rule Delhi.
39:38Some of the Adil Shahis were relatively decent rulers.
39:41Akbar, one must acknowledge, was a relatively decent ruler by the standards of his time.
39:47Some were terrible like Aurangzeb, like Allahuddin Khilji.
39:50But they were foreigners.
39:51That's a fact.
39:52Akbar did not look like Hrithik Roshan or Prithviraj Kapoor.
39:57He was central Asian.
39:59To us, he would have looked Chinese.
40:01But they weren't Chinese.
40:02They were central Asian.
40:04They were from the steppe lands which extends from Hungary to Manchuria.
40:08Hungary in Eastern Europe to North East China, Manchuria.
40:11It's a vast land of grasslands essentially.
40:14Tons of horses and among the greatest warriors the world has ever seen.
40:18Scythians, Mongols, Huns, Turks.
40:21These are all cousin tribes.
40:23And our invaders, particularly the Turkic colonial invaders, came from these areas.
40:30What I want to bring out is a few key things.
40:35One, the British colonial rule has not been called the Christian invasion.
40:40Then why is the Turkic colonial rule called the Islamic invasion?
40:44This, if you think about it, is a very mischievous approach that the British took.
40:52The aim very clearly was to divide Hindus and Muslims.
40:55Modern Indians are very clear that British rule had nothing to do with Indian Christians.
41:02But there are many sadly who are not clear that Turkic colonial rule had nothing to do with Indian Muslims either.
41:07True.
41:08And sadly, this British policy of divide and rule on our history continued even post 1947.
41:16Our establishment historians did not change the term Islamic invasion to Turkic colonial rule.
41:23Which is a correct term.
41:24They were all Turks.
41:25They weren't Indians.
41:26As Faiz Ahmed, Faiz has said, Paswanda Muslims or Indian Muslims would not be allowed into Agra during Temurid Mughal times.
41:37But some Apakars Hindus were.
41:39Right?
41:40So, Indian Muslims were as oppressed as Indian Hindus by these foreign Turkic invaders.
41:46It's interesting.
41:47Our ancestors were also very clear.
41:52If you see, you know, the texts by the Vijayanagara emperors or Chhatrapadi Shivaji, they didn't
42:02say Muslims.
42:03They said Turuksha.
42:04They called the Delhi Sultans and the Temurid Mughals Turuksha, which is Sanskrit for Turk.
42:11They were very clear that these guys were foreigners.
42:14We need to be clear of that.
42:16That's the first thing.
42:17Second thing, the way our history books tell us that we just kept losing every battle for
42:23a thousand years.
42:24You know, the British obviously had a selfish reason for again coming out with that narrative
42:30because they convinced us that we are a bunch of losers whose job is to just accept
42:35the next invasion.
42:36Right?
42:37And they civilized us and they trained us just to be clerks in the British Empire.
42:42Exactly.
42:43And to be Babus.
42:44And to be Babus.
42:45That's all we are fit to be.
42:46We are a conquered, defeated people.
42:48Right?
42:49That's the narrative taught to us.
42:51But a question that had struck me when I was in school, that if what our history textbooks
42:57say is right and that we were losing every battle for a thousand years, why the hell are
43:03we still alive?
43:04We should be dead.
43:05Yeah.
43:06We should be dead.
43:07The same invaders who came to India, the Turks, the Huns, the Mongols, the Portuguese,
43:13British, Dutch, French, they went to every corner of the world.
43:18They wiped out all ancient civilizations.
43:21Aztecs, Mayas, Central America, Bichare, Native Americans in America, Pharaonic Egyptians,
43:28Greco-Roman culture, the pagan European culture, all of them all wiped out.
43:34Great Zimbabwe and Africa all wiped out.
43:37But a thousand years of invasions, we Indians are still standing.
43:40We are still here.
43:42Right?
43:43So in my mind, the real story of the last thousand years is not a thousand years of defeats.
43:49It's a thousand years of the greatest resistance in human history.
43:55No bunch of indigenous people have fought so long and so hard to protect their culture.
44:02Every other culture gave up.
44:04The Zohrashtans are alive in India.
44:07They are massacred out of existence.
44:09The massacres that we have seen in Persia, that katliyam happened in India too.
44:14But we fought.
44:15But we fought.
44:16Our ancestors fought and they kept fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting.
44:22Kisi ne, humare sanskriti ko kisi ne humain khairat mein nahi di hai hai.
44:29Humare purwajohne ladke se bachaya hai.
44:32And that's the truth we should know.
44:34We aren't a bunch of defeated people.
44:36We are the toughest buggers around.
44:39We are the only ones who survived.
44:41The only ones.
44:42The same invaders wiped out every other civilization.
44:46We are the only ones who survived.
44:49The only ones.
44:50Brilliant you should mention that.
44:52In fact, even Alama Iqbal has mentioned this.
44:57Mith gai Roma, Yunnan or Misr.
44:59Kuch baat hai ki hasti mitti nahi humare.
45:01Sadiyo na hai dushman doore zama hamara.
45:04Ironically, it was Iqbal who said it.
45:07Yes.
45:08Because, well, we know what happened to him.
45:11Regrettably.
45:12But, yeah, what he said, I agree with.
45:16There is something special in us that we are still here.
45:19And that is the self-image we Indians should have.
45:22We are the toughest people around.
45:24Our ancestors were the toughest around.
45:26They kept fighting when every other ancient people,
45:29they surrendered.
45:31Yep.
45:32And you mentioned that.
45:33So, okay, when all these Turkic invasions started
45:36and they were breaking our temples
45:38and they were trying to destroy our culture,
45:40which is what they did world over.
45:42To conquer a country, you destroy their temples.
45:45You destroy their Nalanda, for example.
45:47You destroy their university's knowledge
45:49and you destroy the people.
45:51They did that to our country,
45:52but our country was constantly fighting.
45:53Your first book,
45:54and I want to talk to you for a moment about that,
45:56Sohal Dev.
45:57If Somnath was raided by Mehmood of Ghazni,
46:04which is what this book also talks about,
46:06you had a king in Uttar Pradesh
46:09who was fighting the Ghazni army.
46:12You know, Mehmood Ghazni's army.
46:14True.
46:15True.
46:16And if it was any other culture,
46:19any other country with a hero like this,
46:21his statues would have been in every city.
46:23Absolutely.
46:24But we are such an idiotic bunch.
46:26Why?
46:27That many of…
46:28Because we don't even know these stories,
46:30because they haven't been taught to us.
46:31But let's be honest,
46:32we can't keep blaming the British forever.
46:34They've been gone for 75 years,
46:35nearly 80 years.
46:36It's time we take charge.
46:38Who's stopping us from decolonizing our history?
46:40Who's stopping us from learning these heroes?
46:42It's our fault.
46:43King Charles is not going to come and do a protest at Pragati Maidan.
46:48Or where do the protests happen in Delhi?
46:50Yeah, Jantar Mantar.
46:51He's not going to do a protest in Jantar Mantar
46:54if we decolonize his ancestors,
46:56the education system that his ancestors set up.
46:58So someone like King Suelde, for example,
47:01he was the ruler of Shravasti,
47:04which is to the east of Ayodhya in UP,
47:07as you rightly said.
47:08He put together an army of Hindus of all castes,
47:13Indian Muslims, Indian Buddhists.
47:15He defeated the Ghaznaved army.
47:17And he followed the policy of Lord Krishna.
47:20Nothing like I will defeat you and let you go.
47:22He killed every single one of the Turkic soldiers.
47:25Didn't leave one person alive.
47:27And then legends say he burnt all their bodies.
47:30And then apparently the head of the commander was beheaded.
47:37He was beheaded and the head…
47:40Masud Salar or something.
47:41Yeah.
47:42And his head was sent back to Ghazni apparently,
47:44with a message.
47:45And the message was well received,
47:48because for over 150 years,
47:50no Turkic army came back to India.
47:52And while at that time,
47:56the Turks were going around massacring much of the rest of the world,
47:58by the way.
47:59The Turks destroyed at that time,
48:01because they were the foot soldiers of the Mongol army.
48:04They destroyed what was the high point of Arab Islamdom,
48:08which is the Abbasid Caliphate.
48:10Yes.
48:11They are the ones who destroyed it,
48:12but they didn't come back to India.
48:13Because they got the message.
48:15Yes.
48:16From what King Suhail Dev did.
48:17King Suhail Dev's story is something that every child in Bharatwarsh should be brought up on.
48:24But we don't know the story.
48:25We don't know the story of King Suhail Dev,
48:27and the manner in which he killed and destroyed these invaders,
48:33cut off their heads.
48:34And you know, unfortunately in our country,
48:37till this year, I mean 2025,
48:40we were celebrating that Ghazi, Masood, Salar in our country as Neza Mela.
48:44But it's not just this, Gaurav.
48:47So many other…
48:49We celebrate terrorists.
48:50You know, so many other of our resistance heroes.
48:55That's what I call them, right?
48:57Like Abakka Rani, right?
48:59Yes.
49:00Rani Chalamal, right?
49:01Martanda Verma.
49:03And I'm saying again, it wasn't a Hindu-Muslim thing,
49:06it was an Indian foreigner thing.
49:07Yes.
49:08Many of the…
49:09You know, some of the soldiers,
49:10they were descendants of Peshwa Baji Rao,
49:13who fought in the third battle of Panipat.
49:15They were Indian Muslims.
49:16Yes.
49:17Who fought Abdali.
49:18It was…
49:19And I'm saying once again,
49:21even someone like Chhatrapadi Shivaji,
49:23he used the term Turushka to refer to the invaders.
49:27He didn't use the term Muslim, right?
49:30He was a very proud Hindu.
49:32And that…
49:33I don't see what's wrong in that.
49:34You can be proud of who you are.
49:36We'll be proud of our religion.
49:37But it was not an internal division.
49:40It was a fight against foreigners.
49:42This should be made clear.
49:43It was a fight against invaders.
49:44Why does our history glorify the invaders
49:47and not sons of the soil
49:50who were constantly fighting for independence
49:53against invaders and imposition of their culture on ours?
49:58In your view.
49:59Look, this…
50:01This needs analysis and research.
50:03You know…
50:04Why the British did it is obvious.
50:07Right?
50:08They wanted to convince us that we are a defeated people.
50:11Divide and rule and convince us that we are a defeated people.
50:15Like I said, you know,
50:17mischievously calling Turkic colonial rule as Islamic rule.
50:20And well, I mean, many Indian Muslims were convinced when they asked for Pakistan.
50:26Yes.
50:27There are many Pakistanis who think they are Turkic descendants.
50:29The Turks don't buy that argument.
50:31Absolutely.
50:32The Pakistanis, wherever they get money, they think they are descendants of those people.
50:37But that's one aspect of it.
50:40But why it continued post 1947 is genuinely a mystery.
50:47In your school book and mine, did we read more about the Mughal rule of 330 years and not the Cholas who ruled us for 950 years?
50:57Yes.
50:58It is so obvious.
51:00Okay?
51:01And yes, the Mughals should be covered.
51:02Temurid Mughals were among the largest empires that India ever had.
51:06But the Lodhis were glorified Zamidars.
51:08Yes.
51:09Why are they given more air time than the Cholas?
51:12Why are they given more air time than the Gurjar Pratiharas?
51:15So, it's not just about South India.
51:18Yes.
51:19The Gurjar Pratiharas of Western India, the Sindhi rulers, the Karkotaks of Kashmir, the Ahoms of Assam, the Pallas, Buddhist Pallas of Bengal, Adil Shahis who are Muslim, Adil Shahis, they are all ignored.
51:32It's not just an obsession with our foreigners.
51:37Among the things that strikes me in our history textbooks is also an excessive obsession with Delhi.
51:47Like apparently anything worth happening happened between Khyber and Agra in the last thousand years.
51:53And I'm not saying Delhi is not important.
51:55Of course it's important.
51:56But it's not the only important part of India.
51:58There were other parts of India too.
52:00And if you covered the other parts of India, you'd get a more complete understanding of India.
52:05Because our history only covers that region.
52:08We see our land as essentially a land of farmers who were largely waiting for the next invader to come from Khyber for the last thousand years.
52:17But if they had taught us about the Gajapatis and the Kalingas, we would know we were actually among the largest seafaring nations on earth for most of human history.
52:27The Bali Yatra which happens in Odisha to this day is an ancient festival.
52:33Bali is in Indonesia.
52:34This is an ancient festival which used to mark the day when traders and seafarers from Kalinga would sail out to Indonesia.
52:44We would know all this if we had a more complete understanding of our history.
52:49If it wasn't just obsessed with our invaders and with Khyber to Agra.
52:54It should cover other parts of India too.
52:57And India's civilizational knowledge, our trade.
53:04Cholas for example and since your book is on the Cholas, the fact that they were trading and our culture was spreading to Malaysia, to Thailand, to Indonesia, to Sri Lanka.
53:17Not through the sword but through convincing them.
53:21And the biggest temples…
53:23We didn't force them.
53:24We attracted them to our culture.
53:26This was soft power the way it has rarely been seen in history.
53:30Even American soft power today is built on their hard power.
53:33And it's shocking that this was not taught to us.
53:36In our own education system, only those of us who are interested and would read outside of our education system and would read rebel books that were not covered by our establishment would get to know about this.
53:50And these quote-unquote rebel books weren't just written by Indians.
53:54They were written by foreigners as well who wrote of the glory of India.
53:59Sir, tell us more about how our culture spread to Indonesia for example.
54:02Or you know Cambodia.
54:04Angkor Wat mein itne sundar bade mandir.
54:07Yeah.
54:08Now when there is war happening between Thailand and…
54:11It's over Hindu temples out there.
54:12It's over a Hindu temple.
54:13Those…
54:14Many of your viewers would have travelled to Southeast Asia.
54:17And if they hadn't read enough, they would be shocked to see murtis of Ganesh ji out there.
54:22Murtis of Kuber who we stopped worshipping in India.
54:25Yes.
54:26But they are still worshipped out there.
54:27And they are Buddhist but they worship Hindu gods as well.
54:31In any case, it's all intermingled in the Indian way.
54:33Yes.
54:34You can be a Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh at the same time simultaneously.
54:36Absolutely.
54:37Just like in Japan where you know 70% are Buddhist, 68% are Shintos.
54:42Yeah.
54:43Goes up to more than 100%.
54:44Because people identify with more than two religions.
54:46We…
54:47Japan accepts the dharmic reality, India doesn't.
54:49So we think people can only follow one religion.
54:52The dharmic you can follow two, three religions.
54:54It's okay.
54:55Because we were seafarers, something that we to an extent forgot.
55:00Great shipbuilders, great traders.
55:02Not just Southeast Asia but you've also spoken and written about it.
55:07Trade with Egypt, trade with Europe, trade with Rome.
55:12You know Indian silk getting into the Roman Empire.
55:15There are brilliant…
55:16West Asia.
55:17Yeah.
55:18There are brilliant scholarly books written by authors like Sanjeev Sanyal, William Danrimple,
55:23various others on this subject.
55:27India became wealthy because of trading largely.
55:30Right?
55:31And innovation.
55:32It's not that we suddenly got oil or something and we became…
55:35No.
55:36It wasn't a…
55:37We had spices.
55:38It wasn't a geopolitical lottery.
55:39We had spices and silk.
55:40But we had to grow our spices and sell them to make money.
55:42Yeah.
55:43Right?
55:44That's how we made gold.
55:45India has the largest hordes of Roman gold coins outside of the Roman Empire.
55:50It's because of centuries of trade surpluses.
55:53Emperor Vespasian had banned trade with India in the second century common era
55:59because Rome was going bankrupt, importing goods from India and paying us in silver and gold.
56:04Yeah.
56:05Pliny the elder had complained that Rome is going bankrupt because we are just buying Indian manufactured goods.
56:13Our traders went to Southeast Asia, to China.
56:16They took our culture as well.
56:18This is how Buddhism, Hinduism spread to all these areas.
56:22The Roman soldiers used to follow a religion called Mithraism.
56:26Mithra was a Vedic god.
56:28Right?
56:29It was a very popular religion among…
56:30So there was trade, our culture, it all spread.
56:33How terrible are we idiotic Indians of today if we don't even remember these great ancestors because of whom we are alive today?
56:42Yes.
56:43How worthless are we that we won't even celebrate their sacrifices?
56:48That's the least we can do.
56:49And I'm so glad you're doing that and I'm so glad I have this opportunity not just to talk to you but to share this, you know, as wide as we can.
56:59And we will continue to do so.
57:01So wish you all the best for your next book, Amish.
57:04Many, many thanks for joining me here and being a part of this Chakraview conversation.
57:10Chakraview, I'll end with this.
57:12Chakraview can only be broken with knowledge.
57:14Yes.
57:15Abhimanyu had no shortage of bravery.
57:16Yes.
57:17Right?
57:18It was Arjun who had the knowledge.
57:19We need to revive the knowledge of our ancestors.
57:21That's how we'll break the Chakraview.
57:22That's how we'll break the Chakraview.
57:24And this is exactly what we intend to do.
57:28To bring out these tales of unparalleled valor of our ancestors.
57:33Because if you and I are able to follow our dharma today, it's because of the supreme sacrifice and that endless sacrifices made by our ancestors.
57:44We'll be back with the next round of Chakraview with more knowledge.
57:48Because as Amishwari rightly put it, it's knowledge that will help us break the Chakraview.
57:54Many thanks for watching.
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