- 6 months ago
The big focus of this episode of India First is on a retired Maharashtra ATS officer's allegations that he was directed to arrest RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat in the 2008 Malegaon blast case.
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00:00Good evening. A former Maharashtra police officer associated with the Malagao blast investigations
00:07has levelled sensational charges against his superiors who conducted the Malagao blast probe
00:14in 2008. Inspector Mehboob Mujaber says he was ordered by his superiors to arrest Mohan Bhagwat,
00:23the Rashtriya Swayam Sebak Sang Sarsangchalak in connection with the Malagao blast case.
00:29And he insists there was no evidence, but this was to implicate the RSS chief with saffron terror
00:36or Hindu terror. And now there is an intense war of words between the BJP and the Congress
00:42with the ruling party accusing the Congress of Muslim appeasement politics. And that is
00:49why they maligned Hindus. That's the allegation. We get you more on the show.
00:59Arrest, Bhagwat, conspiracy exposed.
01:08Former Maharashtra cop claims smear sung plot.
01:12P.J.P.L.A.G.S. Congress bid to defame Hindus.
01:30Congress continues Hindu terror push.
01:52Malagao conspiracy files unraveled. That is our top focus on India first.
02:10So this whistleblower police officer has leveled some sensational charges. He claims,
02:18one, there was no evidence against Mohan Bhagwat. Two, this was an attempt to implicate
02:24Hindus with terror. Three, his instructions from his superiors were clear. Go arrest Mohan
02:30Bhagwat. He claims he refused. And that is why he was implicated in some false cases. That's
02:37his point of view. Maharashtra police insiders say that Inspector Mehboob was not a part, not
02:43a part of the core team that carried out this investigation. The BJP says not only must the
02:49Congress apologize to Hindus, but there should be an investigation that who are these higher
02:54authorities linking Hindus to terror and why. The Congress has accused the BJP of using the
02:59Malagao blast verdict as diversionary tactics from real issues facing the nation. That whistleblower
03:07police inspector, Mehboob joins me on India first. We'll have a conversation with him. I'm Gaurav
03:13Savant. As always, let's get started.
03:17So as the BJP sharpened its knives to take on the Congress on the issue of that Hindu terror
03:22bogey after the Malagao blast verdict, a whistleblower inspector has come forward and inspector Mehboob
03:30has dropped a bombshell. He said he was ordered by his superiors not just to implicate but also arrest
03:38RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat in the 2008 Malagao blast case. Assam chief minister, Himand Biswasarma alleges
03:46that the Congress party conspired to arrest the RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat in the Malagao blast case.
03:52And the entire plan was not just to defame the RSS but Hindu religion. He insists this is a
04:00political witch hunt. After this verdict, he wants the then home minister to be questioned. The
04:06Congress has called this diversionary tactics. Our Mumbai bureau with our top story.
04:16Just a day after a bombshell verdict in the 2008 Malagao blast case,
04:20where all seven accused were acquitted by a trial court comes another stunning twist.
04:27A former Maharashtra police inspector who claims he worked with the ATS Mehboob Mujawar
04:33has sensationally alleged that he was pressured by officer Parambir Singh to frame RSS leaders,
04:40shaking the very foundation of the Malagao probe.
04:47Mujawar's claims have made the BGPC red as the party sees it as yet another proof of how the Congress tried to create the boggy of saffron terror when it was in power.
04:59Mujawar's claims have made the BGPC red as the party sees it as yet another proof of how the Congress tried to create the boggy of saffron terror when it was in power.
05:11But the political war of words over the existence of saffron terror and what constitutes
05:24it don't end with the explosive officers' testimony. Former Maharashtra Chief Minister Prithvirat Chavan has lit a fresh fire claiming that the word Bhagwa or saffron should not be used to denote terror, but the word Sanatan or saffron can be.
05:40that Bhagwa means once.
05:53be an!
05:59Who Mathemathe is a spiritual scripture for the rituals of Hmavar is Tdha.
06:08If you have a religion, you have Hindu terror, Hindu fundamentalist terror, Sanadini terror, but you don't have to run away.
06:16Samajwadi party MP Ram Gopal Yadav added fuel to fire, claiming that those behind cow vigilantism and mob lynchings are also terrorists.
06:26What is lynching? What is lynching?
06:28On the offensive, the BGP has accused the Congress of dangerous double-speak.
06:58The question is, who was the congressman?
07:19Nita Kaiska Pishon Kiran Niti Kewal or Kewal Saratana Hindu Dharm to Badnam Kata old wounds reopened
07:31old prejudices reignited and new questions about justice truth and political expediency in the
07:40aftermath of the Malaga verdict is India left with answers or just more dangerous divisions
07:46Bureau report India today
07:49the big question is will there be an investigation was there a conspiracy to falsely implicate the
08:00RSS and arrest RSS Sarsang Chalak Mohan Bhagwat in the 2008 Malaga blast case and was there a wider
08:07conspiracy to float and propagate the bogey of Hindu terror and let off the terrorists who are
08:13actually responsible for the blasts and was this done as part of vote bank politics or Muslim
08:19appeasement politics tushti karan ki raj niti maharashya police officers who incidentally had
08:25probed the 2006 Malaga blast case they've gone on record to say that their probe was thrown out
08:32despite arrests despite legal action being taken and then the 2008 accused were implicated in the
08:402006 cases and why was this done apparently to invoke makoka the maharashtra control of organized crime
08:47act is that actually what was done will that be investigated is there a direct link between that
08:54botched probe in 2006 the Malaga case of 2008 and the samjhota blast of 2007 are these all linked
09:03joining me on this india first special broadcast are pk jain former additional director general of the
09:10maharashya police someone who was associated with these investigations yashu vardhan azad is former
09:16special director of the intelligence bureau pradeep bhandari is the national spokesperson of the bjp
09:22charan singh sapra represents the congress he's the national spokesperson of the congress
09:27desh ratan nigam is an advocate and analyst he'll give us the rashtriya swayam sevak sangh perspective on
09:32the story but i first want to cut across to inspector mehbub who claims he was ordered to arrest
09:39and implicate mohan bhagwat inspector mehbub uh aap ne kaha ki aap ko kaha gaya tha ki uh mohan bhagwat ko
09:49hiraat kya aap ko hukum dya gaya tha kiya aap ko hukum dya gaya tha kiya aap ko aadish mila tha
09:55kya aap ne kya shumila tha
09:59him
10:11It was a problem for them and for them to take care of me and for them to take care of me.
10:17And after that, what I said was a bad idea and a bad idea.
10:25I did not do that.
10:28Then I understood that I did not do that, but the secret is all I know.
10:33This is why I did a bad case and arrested me.
10:38After the arrest, I told them that I had a bad idea.
10:45I have a bad idea.
10:50I have a bad idea.
10:54I have a bad idea.
10:57I have a bad idea.
10:59I have a bad idea.
11:00I have a bad idea.
11:01After that, I have a bad idea.
11:06I have a bad idea.
11:08I have a bad idea.
11:09I have a bad idea.
11:13I had an accident and evidence that I had the entire document in the KMRI court.
11:20I want to understand that the verdict is coming from the KMRI court.
11:27I want to understand that the verdict is coming from the KMRI court.
11:33The police have been told that you were made from ATS court.
11:40foreign
11:47foreign
11:54foreign
11:59foreign
12:04foreign
12:09foreign
12:23foreign
12:39foreign
12:48foreign
12:52foreign
13:02foreign
13:06Do you have to take action from the RSS government to take action from the RSS government?
13:12I have all the evidence.
13:14There is a lot of evidence.
13:15I have posted in the court.
13:17In the court, this is the case.
13:21In the court, this is the case.
13:25So, there is evidence.
13:27If there is also an investigation,
13:29if there is an investigation,
13:32then it will happen.
13:36So, you claim you have evidence and you were a part of that investigation team.
13:41Inspector Mehboob for joining me here on India Today.
13:44Many thanks.
13:45I now want to throw it open for a wider conversation.
13:47Charan Singh Sapra, BJP alleges this is part of the Congress conspiracy
13:53to malign Hindus in general.
13:56It's part of Muslim appeasement politics.
13:58And that is why there was a plot to arrest Mohan Bhagwat
14:02and implicate the Rashtriya Swayam Se Vaksang in the Maligav blast case, sir.
14:11See, Gaurav, what else BJP can say?
14:13You know, they are also doing politics and they always indulge into divisive politics.
14:17Now, as far as this interview of Mr. Mehboob Mujawar is concerned,
14:22you should have asked him that his case, you know, that case went off from 2010,
14:28the case in which he was implicated, he is saying that went off from 2010 to 2015
14:33and finally that case was dismissed.
14:36Were these facts given by Mr. Mujawar in the court?
14:41Why the public prosecutor at that time did not take cognizance
14:45or did not feel that this is important?
14:48Why the government at that time?
14:50You know, in 2014, it was the double-engine Sarkar which had come.
14:54They could have taken up this issue.
14:55Devendra Fadnavis was the Chief Minister.
14:57Why Devendra Fadnavis and his government ignored it?
15:00They should take action on that.
15:02And even if he is saying today, then let the Devendra Fadnavis,
15:06today also there is a double-engine Sarkar.
15:09Let them investigate.
15:10Let them announce.
15:11We also have to see whether this is actual Mehboob Mujawar
15:15or this is the Sarkari Mujawar.
15:17He can be planted also.
15:19So, there are so many things into it.
15:21I feel if the government is serious, if the BJP is serious,
15:25they should go in for investigation.
15:27or doodh ka doodh paani ka paani hona chahiye.
15:30As far as the implication or saying that Congress is trying to,
15:34you know, create a bigger picture of Hindu terrorism,
15:38let me remind you that the first terrorist of independent India
15:42was Nathuram Ghodse.
15:43He was a Hindu and he followed the RSS ideology.
15:46He was the one and that ideology, you know, killed Mahatma Gandhi.
15:51He was murdered.
15:52He was the first terrorist.
15:53We need not say anything.
15:55The history itself says, whatever BJP is saying,
15:58as far as this case is concerned, let me give me just one more minute.
16:02This case was investigated by two agencies.
16:05One in the beginning by ATS.
16:07ATS took over this case and they filed a charge sheet in 2009.
16:11And probably in the years to come, they gave all the evidence.
16:16The accused were charged with Makoka and other charges were also there.
16:21Then 2011, the NIA took over.
16:23NIA started the investigation from starting only from ABCD.
16:28They investigated everything again.
16:30They got the witnesses' statements again and 36 witnesses, you know, they went hostile.
16:37And there was a CD, a broken CD which was given by NIA in the court.
16:42That CD had important evidences and a case in which 36 witnesses turned hostile.
16:48Earlier, they had given a statement in front of a magistrate only when ATS has taken the statement.
16:54So, it is not that that was taken in a police station.
16:57Sir, your initial comments were absolutely uninterrupted.
17:01The broken CD.
17:02Let me now get BJP's Pradeep Bhandari.
17:04All of this has been through courts of law.
17:06I am not a judge.
17:08All of this went through courts of law.
17:10And a verdict was delivered and all the accused were let off.
17:14So, here that case is not being argued, Charan Singh Sapra.
17:18Pradeep Bhandari, there is a point.
17:20Charan Singh Sapra says there is a BJP government in Maharashtra.
17:23There is a BJP government at the centre.
17:25In case there was a conspiracy to arrest the Rasheya Swayamsevak Sangh Sar Sangh Chalak.
17:30Unravel that conspiracy.
17:32Arrest those who are responsible.
17:34The Congress claims for BJP, this is only politics of appeasement of the Hindus.
17:40Well, there is no closure report in the case.
17:43I will debate on the specifics of the case.
17:45But at the outside, let me just point towards a pattern.
17:48The Congress party coined a term which is called as Hindu Terror.
17:52Which is an oxymoron because a Hindu cannot be a terrorist.
17:55Let me go and point towards a pattern.
17:572006, Malegaon blast.
17:59Simi is a terror outfit which was accused.
18:02Digvijay Singh of the Congress party comes ahead and defends it.
18:052007, Samjhwata blast case.
18:08Initially, two Pakistani based nationals are caught.
18:11Congress party sets them free.
18:14Accuses Hindus.
18:15The case falls flat and the court says the accusation is completely fallacious.
18:202008, Malegaon blast case.
18:22The Congress party puts blame on a serving army colonel.
18:26Which has never happened in the post-independent India.
18:29And comes again with something called as saffron terror which is oxymoron.
18:33Mumbai terror case.
18:35Rather than pointing blame towards Pakistan.
18:37The Congress party coins this conspiracy theory.
18:40RSS ki saajish.
18:41Thank God for Tukaram Omble.
18:43Otherwise, they would have called that Kasab was not responsible.
18:46Pakistan was not responsible.
18:482007, Ajmer Dargah blast case.
18:51Initially, the accused were caught.
18:53Let free.
18:54There was a fake arrest of certain individuals.
18:56Quote unquote belonging to RSS.
18:58Nothing proven.
18:592008, Mecca Masjid blast.
19:01Initially, the angle was of Islamic radicalism.
19:04The Congress party let that free.
19:06Got the RSS angle.
19:08Again, all acquitted.
19:09Nothing proven.
19:102010, as per a US cable.
19:12Timothy Romer was at that time a US diplomat.
19:15He says in the US cable.
19:17That when Rahul Gandhi was asked.
19:18What do you think about the threat of the Lashkar-e-Taiba.
19:21Mind you, this is two years after the Mumbai terror attack.
19:24Rahul Gandhi as per the cable.
19:25Quotes that forget about LET.
19:27The real threat that India faces.
19:29Is from Hindu terrorists.
19:312011, P. Chidamram.
19:32Them home minister.
19:34On an official statement.
19:36With an official record.
19:37In front of the DGP says.
19:39That saffron terror is something which this country should fear.
19:42All of this is pointing towards one pattern.
19:44Where Sonia Gandhi sheds tears for Batla House.
19:47Terrorists not for Shaheed Mohan Chand Sharma.
19:50Flash to now, Gaurav.
19:52Just 10 seconds and I will complete.
19:53Prithviraj Chauhan says that call it Hindu terror.
19:56Backed by Renuka Chaudhary.
19:58The Congress party for its appeasement politics.
20:00Will hate Hindus.
20:01Call Hindus as terrorists.
20:03This entire conspiracy has fallen flat.
20:05And we will definitely investigate the role of the Congress leaders.
20:08Which tried to create this fake bogey of Hindu terror.
20:11Whether it is Sonia Gandhi or anybody else.
20:13There is no closure report in the case mind you.
20:15Can I give a small pivotal.
20:17Briefly sir.
20:18I want to bring in another case.
20:19But go ahead sir.
20:20Go ahead.
20:21Two things.
20:22Yeah.
20:23Yeah.
20:24See two more things.
20:25Whatever the BJP might be saying.
20:27The two facts are.
20:29While the NIF filed its supplementary charge sheet.
20:32Allow it.
20:33They got rid of the Makoga charges which were filed earlier by the ATS.
20:38That was one major thing.
20:39Secondly, if you remember Rohini Salian in 2050 she has given a written affidavit to the
20:45Minister.
20:46Allow me to do that.
20:47She has written that there is a pressure from NIA that I have to go soft on this case.
20:53And she was not willing to go soft.
20:55That's why in 2017 Rohini Salian was sidelined.
20:59So you can imagine how the case has gone.
21:01The Makoka charges have gone.
21:03Was she sidelined between 2008 and 2014?
21:06NIA has taken over Rohini.
21:08Rohini Salian.
21:09Fair enough.
21:10Fair enough.
21:11Rohini Salian was sidelined in 30 seconds.
21:13I have to bring in our other case.
21:15Allow me because he.
21:16First of all, I challenge the Congress party and appeal to the Congress party.
21:20Go to the court.
21:21Challenge this verdict.
21:23Go and say that Hindus are terrorists.
21:25Like you had gone for Prabhu Sri Ram's Mandir.
21:27Because that is what you believe in.
21:28Rohini Salian.
21:29Fake news.
21:30Bukul Rajgi at that time was representing the government in the Supreme Court of India.
21:34None of it was proven.
21:35It is all baseless allegations.
21:37This case has gone to 10,800 saboot.
21:39323 witness.
21:41Five judges.
21:4217 years.
21:43And then all the seven have been acquitted.
21:45The issue is that the Congress party only wants to blame Hindus as terrorists.
21:49That entire theory has fallen flat.
21:50They went after the RSS because RSS believed in Bharat's unity and Hindus' unity.
21:54And that is what the Congress party was against.
21:56Fair enough.
21:57Fair enough.
21:58I will come back to both of you.
21:59But let me bring in our other guests.
22:00Let me bring in our other guests for a moment.
22:02Mr. Saprat, kindly be patient.
22:04Deshraatan Nigam.
22:05Do you see a wider conspiracy to target and tarnish the RSS and implicate Mohan Bhagwat as alleged?
22:13Well, Gaurav, in fact, Pradeep clearly pointed out a pattern and the numerous examples that he had given.
22:20I would not repeat that.
22:21The fact remains that Mr. Saprat also, you know, said Godse believed in RSS ideology.
22:28Whereas if you look at the papers of that particular case, the IB did not name it.
22:33The FIR did not name RSS.
22:35The Chakshi did not name RSS.
22:37And the entire judgment of, you know, Godse committing a crime and getting receiving punishment did not mention RSS.
22:45Please remember that it was Mr. Nehru's idea.
22:49Mr. Patel did initially ban the RSS, but immediately it was taken off.
22:55The ban was removed.
22:56Mr. Patel realized that the mistake was done.
23:01Mr. Patel realized that there was nothing and he's on record that he said there is nothing against the RSS and therefore the ban was removed.
23:09Okay, Sardar Patel made it mistake.
23:11I did not interfere.
23:12I want to bring in Mr. Jain.
23:14I want to bring in.
23:16No, no, no.
23:17Hold on.
23:18Mr. Saprat, please maintain decorum.
23:20Hold on.
23:21Hold on.
23:22Hold on.
23:23Hold on.
23:24Hold on.
23:25Let me, permit me to moderate this, Mr. Jain.
23:27Only Mr. Jain, only Mr. PK Jain.
23:30And when a police officer who has been associated with the investigation speaks, my request to all our guests is hear him out.
23:36He knows the case better than everyone else here.
23:39Mr. Jain, your reading of the 2006 Malegaon blast case, your appreciation of the 2008 Malegaon blast case, and, sir, were the investigations tainted in your appreciation,
23:54appreciation, in your view.
23:57Gaurav, thank you very much for having me here.
24:00Yes, 2006 case was initially supervised under me.
24:05It was subsequently taken over by the ATS, from ATS that went to CBI and NIA.
24:10The case was crystal clear, certain accused had been identified, arrested.
24:16A couple of Pakistani nationals who had apparently reported to have come to India, to Malagao,
24:22to orchestrate the whole thing had slipped before the blast took place.
24:26This all came in the investigation, so eventually the charge was sent against a certain set of
24:31accused.
24:32And I'm sorry to say that in the 2008 blast, when the Sadhvi Pragya and other people,
24:38Colonel Prohit, etc., were arrested, subsequently the entire investigation of 2006 case was
24:45also reopened, and all those accused against whom there was plenty of evidence, both direct,
24:51indirect, circumstantial, forensic.
24:53They were all discharged from the case, and the accused of 2008 blast case were made the
24:59accused of 2006 blast case.
25:01So I'm being very categorical about it.
25:03My God.
25:04The entire investigation and the case of 2006 was botched up.
25:09Nothing will come out of it.
25:10The case is still pending in the court.
25:112008 case has been decided first.
25:142006 case is still pending in the court.
25:16But nothing will come out of it because the actual accused against whom there was a plethora
25:21of evidence were let off.
25:24And the accused against whom there was no evidence.
25:26Now, 2008 case judgment is very clear that there was no evidence even in this case.
25:30So 2006 case will now also go to the dogs.
25:34So that is about the 2006 case.
25:36Sir, give me a moment.
25:37I want to understand from you and I want to bring in Mr. Yashavardan Azad because both of
25:41you as police officers will help us understand.
25:45Because I want the nation, I want our country to know 2006 Malegaon blast.
25:51Who were the accused?
25:52Who did you arrest?
25:54What was the Pakistani link?
25:55What can you tell us, sir?
25:57And why were they let off in your view?
25:58See, 2006 case, there were certain operatives, members of SIMI, who were actually accused
26:06in the case.
26:08And there was evidence.
26:10The place where the bomb was assembled, there were traces of RDX from that soil samples that
26:15were taken.
26:16It was all proved.
26:17It was all evidence, forensic evidence, which was there with us.
26:21There was a person who himself was a Muslim, a devout Muslim, so to say.
26:25He was told, he was an electrician.
26:28He was told that if you help us assemble this bomb, he was supposed to be doing the circuit
26:34part of it.
26:35He was told that it will be only a little bit of a panic.
26:37And then 33 persons lost their lives.
26:43So he was running around like a mad guy.
26:46He didn't understand the implication of his actions.
26:50Till the time he went to the hospital, saw a three-year-old child who had got splinters
26:54under her chin.
26:55When he saw that he broke down, his wife was again a very devout Muslim.
26:59She counselled him and told him that you go to the police, admit your fault.
27:03If you have done a gun, if you have done something wrong, you will probably be fine.
27:07And then he was moving around with a slip in his pocket that I have committed this crime.
27:13I want to meet HV Nasik Rural and I want to divulge as to what exactly happened.
27:18We initially did not believe him.
27:19So we took him into our custody, so to say.
27:24And then we started questioning him.
27:26And it was not only our SV Nasik, by itself, ATS chief of that time.
27:32And there were officers from the Central Investigating Agency, also president at that time.
27:36We all interrogated him thoroughly.
27:39And he struck to his guns, he said.
27:41And then he only took us to various places where the bomb was assembled, how it was placed
27:44and all that.
27:45Everything was disclosed.
27:47And then we had to keep that man in our custody, in our protection for almost six months.
27:51We had to give him a flat in Nasik, in our police headquarters, so that he's not harmed
27:57by the other party.
27:58He was being threatened.
27:59The other people were asking him to withdraw his statement.
28:01So this is all.
28:03So after that, the entire case was.
28:05Then we identified the people who had brought the cycle on which the bomb had been planted.
28:10Plenty of evidence was there.
28:11As I said, circumstantial, direct, indirect, forensic.
28:14All kind of evidence was there.
28:16And I believe NTR was involved.
28:18CBI was involved.
28:19Other central agencies were involved.
28:21I didn't want to name the agencies.
28:22But yes, central agencies, what you said is correct.
28:26So, God of this is how it happened.
28:29Yeah.
28:30Yashwarda Nazad, isn't this sinister?
28:33So a Maharashtra police team, it starts an investigation.
28:37The NTRO joins in.
28:39The CBI joins in.
28:40The IB join in.
28:41And they collect forensic evidence.
28:43So where the bomb was assembled, where were the traces of RDX, all of that.
28:48Forensics, carefully assembled.
28:50That investigation is thrown out.
28:52And Hindus are implicated in that case in 2008.
28:56And if I am to understand correctly, all of this was done.
28:58And Mr. Jain, you can help us understand this.
29:00Because Makoka had to be enforced.
29:04And Makoka, as you know better, Mr. Yashwarda Nazad, I want you to tell our viewers what are circumstances in which Makoka can be imposed.
29:11And that a case was botched up and Hindu terror bogey was put forward, sir.
29:16Well, first, let me define a few parameters.
29:22Because most of it, the debate has been so far political.
29:25And, of course, Mr. Jain is the one who has talked about the specifics of the case.
29:30First of all, yes, I totally agree there is no such thing as saffron terror.
29:33And it's a very wrong nomenclature.
29:35And it's absolutely wrong.
29:38So let's forget about that.
29:40We are not talking about that.
29:41If somebody does it for political considerations, that's a different thing.
29:45Number two, I am not too particularly, you know, enamored or believing kind of the statement made by that inspector.
29:56Because the first thing is that if I don't think any IPS officer would be a fool to tell somebody to catch some innocent man,
30:05that also very well known and put him as an accused.
30:08Sir, I am very specifically on the case for the moment on the parallel between 2006 and 2008 case, sir.
30:17Makoka ko dalna tha to 2006 ka blast,
30:21jis mein people have been taken into custody.
30:23There's a Pakistan, you know, angle to it.
30:26There are Pakistanis involved in it.
30:28They are let off to so that Hindus can be implicated in a 2008 case.
30:32And Makoka can be imposed.
30:34Well, I am not aware under what consideration this has been done.
30:38Mr. Jain would be able to tell you.
30:39Yes, Makoka is there when you have an organized crime, when you have a known year.
30:44And I think it was removed later when the ATS took charge, under what conditions it was done.
30:52But those Pakistanis, they were never traced also.
30:55And they were never caught.
30:58And when the ATS took over, again, you know, talking about the officers per se,
31:03each one were fantastic officers, whether it's Hermant Karkare,
31:08and whether later in the NIA, the investigation was done by Sanjeev Kumar Singh,
31:13an outstanding officer again from Madhya Pradesh.
31:15So, I don't know how these simple things like chain of custody, like, you know,
31:22if the witnesses go hostile after 14 years, I can understand any witness can go hostile after 14 years.
31:28Sir, if an upright army officer is assaulted by these fantastic officers in custody,
31:33I wonder how fantastic these police officers are.
31:37If they're assaulting an upright army officer in custody,
31:39and he's saying so in writing, and he's seeking the protection of the court,
31:43that he's, as an army officer, Lieutenant Colonel Prasad Shrikant Prohit was being beaten up.
31:49He was being beaten with belts and boots.
31:52Yes, there are allegations in the terror cases or even in other cases also.
31:56So, I agree with that. I totally agree.
32:00But the question is that when the supplementary charge sheet was being filed before the court,
32:06we are talking about the court release.
32:08They talked about, they did not oppose the bail plea of Praki Savva.
32:12Sadhvi, sorry.
32:14And they also in a supplementary charge sheet removed her name.
32:17But the court kept the name.
32:19Sure.
32:20So, you know, I'm only on investigation.
32:22I'm on investigation at the moment.
32:24I'm on the investigation.
32:26Our investigations in our country, depending on who's the government in power,
32:30and who's a powerful leader.
32:32That I agree.
32:33Now, let me talk about that.
32:36Let me talk about that.
32:36One second.
32:37Gaurav, Gaurav.
32:38Let me add to this point.
32:42Today, that's exactly what I wanted to say.
32:44Today, the lawmakers must look at the fact that our investigation agencies,
32:50our prosecution is completely in tatters.
32:53And it is influenced by the ruling governments because the postings of the chiefs are done like that.
33:00The posting of the officers are done like that.
33:03And unless you make the investigative agencies not accountable to the government,
33:08make it accountable to the court or make it accountable to Loka Youk or to the High Court or Supreme Court,
33:15and you'll see the difference immediately.
33:16Okay, but I want to once again come back.
33:19While I'm on that wider issue, I want to come back to the 2006 and 2008 investigation.
33:23Sir, in your appreciation, and I'll bring in Pradeep Bhandari and Charan Singh Sapra also into this conversation in a moment.
33:292006, you're saying there's a Pakistani angle.
33:32Was that Pakistani angle investigated?
33:35People who were taken into custody, you chart-sheeted them.
33:38They were let off.
33:39And Sadhvi Pragya and Purohit, Karl Purohit and others were implicated in this case.
33:43Was there any evidence against them in 2006 blast case?
33:47Or was it just to impose Makoka?
33:49And were they implicated in other cases?
33:50Because I believe Makoka requires more than one organized crime in the past.
33:58See, Gaurav, 2006, there was no mention of Sadhvi Pragya or Colonel Purohit
34:03because that issue was…
34:05These two were never on the scene.
34:06They were never in the zone of consideration.
34:08So it was only on the basis of investigation that certain individuals had been identified, arrested, and prosecuted.
34:15So, as I said, we had ample evidence against them to charge them in the court of law.
34:20It was only in 2008, after October-November, whenever Sadhvi Pragya and other people were arrested,
34:26that the angle, that saffron terror angle was brought in, and the case of 2006 was reopened.
34:32And I, as a sane police officer, can say that it was all because of certain political considerations.
34:39There was no reason.
34:40Because even when we were investigating the 2006 case, and we were about to name these people,
34:45I was to hold a press conference because the press was breathing down our neck.
34:50And there were a number of OB-bands standing there.
34:51We wanted to disclose the names of the accused and, you know, how the entire conspiracy was cooked.
34:57I was prevented by the then-home minister not to speak out these names
35:00because the local populace would probably go against the party in power.
35:04But then, as these things were, and it was a fact, we went public.
35:092008 case, as I said, I'm not privy to the investigation of that case.
35:13But to make those accused, accused in the 2006 case was absolutely atrocious.
35:19It was absolute falsification of the records.
35:22I am absolutely, clearly telling you this fact.
35:252006 case, these people had no role to play.
35:29Jaran Singh Sapra, those who were directly associated with the investigations,
35:34their blood, their sweat, their effort, their sacrifice,
35:37all sacrificed at the altar of Muslim appeasement politics is the allegation, sir.
35:44In your appreciation, sir, does the Congress owe the country an explanation here, sir?
35:53No, see, I don't think so.
35:55The issue is that if there were any flaws,
35:59the eminent IPS officers that time, they could have come out,
36:04they could have spoken like this Mahbub Muzawar is now talking,
36:07the IPS, why they did not speak that time?
36:10Why the law, you know, it cannot go as per the ruling party.
36:16There are constraints into it, but the IPS officers could have spoken out.
36:21So even the government today, they can go in for correction, na?
36:25The issue is that.
36:25The issue majorly is that Bharatiya Janata Party just want to create a huhalah of this
36:30just to divert the attention from the kind of goof up they have done with Trump,
36:35with the 25% tariff and the undisclosed penalty,
36:39with the kind of foreign policy they have gotten.
36:41It is a blunder.
36:44Neither our neighbors are with us,
36:46nor the other countries have supported us during the pandemic.
36:50Where are we taking the debate, Safraji?
36:52Where are we taking the debate?
36:52No, I completely agree.
36:53I'll come to that aspect in just a moment.
36:55I'll come to that.
36:55No, no, where are we taking the debate?
36:56No, no, I am just trying to say that Rahul Gandhi in the Congress
37:04hate the progress of the Indians.
37:06Only a man who hates India, an Indian can do it.
37:10Yes, sir, I'll be coming to that report shortly.
37:13I'll come to that report shortly.
37:15But hold on.
37:16This bogey of Hindu terror is also a very serious story.
37:19I want to focus on this.
37:21I want to focus.
37:22I want to focus on this bogey of Hindu terror.
37:26You know, we cannot, we cannot, we cannot have this in our country.
37:30We must be very clear about it.
37:31But Pradeep Bhandari, why blame the Congress?
37:34Because the Congress turns around and says that there were the then Home Secretary.
37:39He was quoted confirming that there are several accused of terror cases with links with the RSS.
37:44He claimed there were at least 10 persons who were associated with the RSS who were under investigation.
37:50And the then Home Secretary came and joined the BJP and became a Union Minister, RK Singh.
37:54And after that, he gave the statement that he was pressurized by then political establishment of P. Chidambaram and Sonia Gandhi to do so.
38:01As various other investigative officers have done.
38:04No, Gaurav, this is not how it can happen.
38:05I was not interrupting this gentleman.
38:07He cannot heckle in between.
38:08This is exactly what Raul Gandhi does.
38:10Please allow, either he will speak or I will speak.
38:12No, one by one, one by one.
38:13I am listening to this gentleman.
38:14Mr. Sapra, Mr. Sapra, give me a moment.
38:16Mr. Sapra is acting like a troll.
38:17No, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
38:18All very well respected guests.
38:20Mr. Sapra, kindly let Mr. Bhandari complete his point.
38:23I am coming to you, sir.
38:23Mr. Bhandari.
38:25From 2008 to 2014, Gaurav, the Congress party was in power.
38:29If their case was strong on Hindu terror, they would have proved it in the court of law.
38:34The court has, after 17 years, said that Hindu terror is myth.
38:39All these seven have been let, have been acquitted.
38:43This is where it proves that the entire investigation of the Congress party was preconceived, was malicious,
38:49and was directed to blame certain innocent individuals for their larger vote bank politics.
38:54And I will illustrate it with another example.
38:56You are an extremely learned man, Gaurav.
38:58Recall what happened on 29th of June 2009.
39:02Arif Kasmani, an Aishkar-e-Taiba operative, was declared by the UNSC having been involved in the Samjata Blast case.
39:09You know what the Congress party's government had done?
39:122007, when they started to investigate the case, initially this Arif Kasmani and Ajmat Ali were caught.
39:18But Congress party let them free.
39:19And they had again got this bogey of catching certain Hindus.
39:23And when they went to the court, the court said that this entire case is felicious.
39:26And this was further proven by the investigative officer, Mr. Gurmeet Singh.
39:30So it is just not one case.
39:31Please tell me, repeated cases, what happened with the 26-11 investigation?
39:36Is it true or not that the Congress party coined RSS Ki Sajish?
39:39Is it true or not that the Congress party gave a clean shit, Hafiz Saeed, terrorist Hafiz Saeed,
39:44was called by Diguja Singh as Hafiz Saeed Ji?
39:45Okay, quickly let Charan Singh Sapra respond because I want to bring in our panelists, our experts on it.
39:52Mr. Sapra.
39:52Just a 10 second.
39:53Mr. Sapra, you are an India hating party.
39:56No, no, no.
39:57Hold on, hold on.
39:58This is why you can call the Biden-Indian economy economy.
40:01Okay, Mr. Sapra.
40:02Only Mr. Sapra.
40:04Go on, sir.
40:06Mr. Sapra.
40:06No, no, shame, shame on Bharatiya Janta party and shame on Narendra Modi because when-
40:12Sir, shame on you.
40:13You are such a Hindu hater.
40:16There's a specific Hindu hater that you cannot answer on facts.
40:20Shame on you that you are calling the fourth time.
40:21Hold on.
40:22As a dead economy, you are an India hating individual.
40:27Your party hates the country.
40:28This is not that channel.
40:30Gentlemen, gentlemen, this is not that channel.
40:32Is there merit that Arif Qasmani was let off, Lashkar-e-Taiva terrorists were let off and Hindus were implicated in Samjhauta blast case?
40:43Answer that question, sir.
40:46Mr. Sapra, Arif Qasmani, UN and US designated him as a terror financer connected with Samjhauta.
40:55Sir, let BJP also answer that in this Malega of Blast case, what are they going to do ahead?
41:07Are they going to take the provision in the law?
41:09They are going to go for reappeal?
41:11They should also answer this.
41:13And all the allegations of BJP are not holding both the basic thing.
41:15Sir, I will ask them the question.
41:16I have asked you a question.
41:18You answer that.
41:18But let me bring in, and just because we have time is at a premium, Mr. Jain, your appreciation and specifically on the Samjhauta blast case, initially the Haryana police investigated that blast.
41:30The US Treasury Department, and I want this generation also to know.
41:34So Samjhauta was a train between India and Pakistan.
41:39That was a blast in that train.
41:41U.S. Treasury Department named Lashkar-e-Taiba, Pakistan-based terrorist organization, and its financer, Arif Qasmani, being responsible for this attack.
41:50Some suspects and accused were taken into custody.
41:53But then it was changed to Hindu terror.
41:55Mr. Jain, your appreciation before I bring in Mr. Azad into this conversation.
42:00See, I am, you may call it, whatever it is, I am in agreement with Mr. Bhandari.
42:05This is a fact that two, you know, men from a particular community were arrested.
42:11They were let off, and Swami Asiman, and then a whole lot of other people were made accused in that case.
42:16And subsequently, they also got acquitted.
42:18It was unfortunate that they had to undergo such a torture of getting prosecuted for a wrong case.
42:24And it was all, in my opinion, see, what has happened in this case is, please try to understand.
42:28MCOC in Maharashtra is imposed on accused who have got two or more charges against them, and it need not be against each individual.
42:38Suppose there's an organization, there's a gang of goons, and they are doing something for money, extorsions, murders, robberies, decoities, whatever it is.
42:47So they have to have two charges against the group as a whole for MCOC to be imposed.
42:52Now, the MCOC in this case was imposed, which was actually not done, because MCOC is not invoked in the case of terror cases.
43:02It is only done in the case of financial matters, because all robberies, decoities, extorsions, everything comes under that, and violence associated with it.
43:10So MCOC, it was only, that was one angle.
43:12And second angle was to prove the point of the saffron terror, because, you know, you have very correctly pointed out,
43:18Mr. Chidambaram, Mr. Digvijay Singh, Mr. Tindey, all these senior ministers and functionaries of the Congress Party have been crying hoarse over their voices to say that there was something called a Bhagwa Atankwad.
43:34And that is why this entire narrative was created to fix certain individuals and a particular party which was pro-Hindu or which was a Hindu outfit.
43:45Mr. Azad, isn't this making a mockery of India's war on Pakistan state-sponsored terror?
43:53Samjhauta blast investigated as a Lashkar-e-Taiba terror attack.
43:58UN and US both put Arif Kasmani on their sanctions list.
44:02And suddenly, just to impose, if that's the theory, just to impose Makoka in the 2008 blast case accused, 2006 investigation was botched up, 2007 investigation was botched up.
44:16The terrorists were let off and Hindus were implicated.
44:19Mr. Azad.
44:20See, Gaurav, first of all, we have to find out also in Samjhauta Express, when that fellow was named as you are talking about,
44:27we have to see what was the evidence lined up against him.
44:30So, yes, I agree, there should be an inquiry.
44:33The other thing which I want to say is, if a Home Secretary says, because of pressure from a Home Minister, that this is Saffron terror, I'm shocked.
44:41Why is he a Home Secretary?
44:43I mean, he's my batchmate.
44:45It's amazing.
44:46Look at the IPS officers, and they convert straight away, and from, yeah, they make it into Saffron terror.
44:53So, that's exactly what I'm telling you.
44:55Today, if you have the investigative agencies only accountable to the political bosses, it will change.
45:01You see the case withdrawal in one case, what happens when a new government comes, all the cases are withdrawn.
45:08So, this is going to happen.
45:09Look at that instance.
45:10Also, there are cases.
45:11And, you know, Mr. Nigam, you recall the instance of RVS money, that undersecretary in the Ministry of Home Affairs,
45:19somebody who's sitting in North Block, somebody who's sitting in the seat of power, in the corridors of power,
45:27he gives a written affidavit in court that he's being burnt with cigarette butts by a senior IPS officer to change his affidavit.
45:34Mr. Nigam, what does that indicate?
45:37See, there is a clear sinister conspiracy at the highest levels at that point of time.
45:43And bureaucrats were pressurized, tortured, and in fact, if you look at Sadhvi Pragya's, you know, order of bail in Supreme Court,
45:51the way she was tortured in Supreme Court has noticed all that.
45:54The pattern is very clear.
45:55And one of the sinister things in this particular case is, as was told by the ex-ATS inspector,
46:02that two Swam Sevaks were arrested and they are absconding.
46:07And he has said that they were killed in custody.
46:10That needs to be investigated.
46:12And second very sinister thing is that a Muslim inspector was being used to arrest Bhagwadji,
46:19to create social disharmony in the country and to polarize Muslim votes to have, you know,
46:25some kind of an advantage in the 2009 elections.
46:27Probably Congress got that advantage.
46:29We don't know.
46:30That needs to be investigated.
46:32However, this clearly needs to be investigated and investigated because you cannot play with the country's security.
46:38You cannot play with national security.
46:40And look at the...
46:42And I want to have all our guests to consider this.
46:44Those 10 Pakistani terrorists who attacked our country during 26-11, all of them,
46:49all those 10 terrorists were wearing a kalawa.
46:53They had fake identity cards with Hindu names.
46:56So how was it that this bogey of Hindu terror was coming even from Pakistan?
47:03What was happening in our country?
47:05And does this actually need to be investigated in the right earnest?
47:09I've run out of time on this part of the debate.
47:11And we perhaps will explore this topic in the days and weeks ahead.
47:15To all my guests, many thanks for joining me.
47:17Is Pakistan's Army Chief Field Marshal Asim Munir now plotting a constitutional coup?
47:22After his visit to the White House, is he plotting not just to remain the Army Chief,
47:27but also through a constitutional amendment, become the President of Pakistan?
47:31And what are these games that play in Pakistan,
47:33especially at a time when both Baluchistan and Khaybar Pakhtunkhwa are on fire?
47:39I spoke to Tilak Devashar, former Special Secretary Raw, on the Chakravue podcast.
47:45We get you an excerpt.
47:46Do watch the entire Chakravue podcast online.
47:49Is Asim Munir completely in control of Pakistan also in terms of control of the Army?
48:01Are all the co-commanders with him?
48:03There were some reports that seemed to indicate that there was a degree of opposition to him
48:07even amongst the co-commanders and the seniors didn't like him.
48:10That doesn't happen in the Army, in Pakistan.
48:13The highest decision-making body is the co-commanders' conference.
48:18They will debate issues pretty democratically.
48:21People will have opposition to something.
48:23They will express their views.
48:25But once a final decision is taken, everybody falls in line.
48:30They may, like Imran Khan, they may be popular.
48:33Imran Khan may be popular in the Army.
48:35But that doesn't mean Triple One Brigade, Brigade Commander goes,
48:38you want to get up and go and attack Gujaranwala or something like that.
48:41That's not going to happen.
48:42Personally, their families can be supportive of Imran Khan.
48:47The retired veterans would be supportive of Imran Khan.
48:51But so what?
48:52Once the, you see, the popularity of the Army Chief
48:57and the hold of the Army Chief are two separate things.
49:01The Army Chief may not be popular amongst the soldiers and the Army officers.
49:06But he has control.
49:08No colonel or no general is going to go up and stage a coup.
49:11So there won't be a coup like that in Pakistan?
49:14Not at the moment.
49:15There have been attempted coups in the past.
49:17This Abbasi fellow, for example.
49:19Or this…
49:20Or that Ziauddin who was egged on by Nawaz Sharif.
49:23He was appointed by Nawaz Sharif.
49:25You know what happened there?
49:26The Defense Ministry refused to send the notification.
49:29Because the notification was not sent, people said we don't accept it.
49:34Unless he was a section officer of the Defense Ministry's notification that he has been appointed Army Chief, he is not Army Chief.
49:42Because it was very fascinating.
49:45I covered the Kargil War and after that in October, we were watching those images on Pakistan television of the Triple One Brigade going into PTV.
49:53Over that railing into PTV office and arresting the people.
49:57And through the night, I was talking to friends in the government here and across just to know what is happening in Pakistan.
50:06So when that coup happened, we don't foresee a coup like that happening in Pakistan.
50:10You see, unless there's a black swan event, at the moment, no.
50:13I mean, I'll stick my neck out and say at the moment, no.
50:15Simply because Pakistan Rami has not had a tradition of this.
50:20You know, the chain of command holds.
50:22Because they're all making money on the side.
50:24Yeah.
50:25Otherwise, if there is some sort of a disruption, somebody's stages of a coup,
50:30that all those Fauji Foundation, Bharia Foundation and all that…
50:34That Korna Plot Foundation.
50:35Yeah.
50:36F-16 is Korna Plot, you know.
50:38That.
50:39So all that will be in jeopardy.
50:41So they all hang together or hang separately.
50:44What is the cooperation in your assessment, sir, in the coordination between TTP and Baloch Liberation Army?
50:52Because it almost appears that Pakistan's entire, you know, the western part is no longer or in semi-control of the Pakistan Army.
51:02Balochistan is bleeding and Khyber Pakhtunko is bleeding.
51:05So they have a tie-up.
51:06They have a tactical tie-up.
51:08In the sense that the Baloch have given space to the TTP.
51:12So the TTP have now got their own Balochistan.
51:14They've got two provinces in Balochistan.
51:16One is the north, which is Pashtun.
51:19Correct.
51:20And in the Makran coast.
51:23So the Kalat and Makran province.
51:25Correct.
51:25And one in the north.
51:26So Baloch and Pashtun, they have their own border also there.
51:30And in turn, the TTP has shared their weaponry and allowed them space for rest and, you know, for sanctuary in Afghanistan.
51:41Taliban have allowed that.
51:43So, but this is a tactical cooperation.
51:45You know, in the sense, because their objectives are totally different.
51:48The Baloch wants separation from Pakistan.
51:49The TTP doesn't want separation.
51:51It wants to convert.
51:53The entire Pakistan into a caliphate.
51:55Yeah, into their version of Sharia.
51:57Into their version of Sharia.
51:57So there is no meeting ground ideologically.
52:00But because they both have a common enemy, they can cooperate tactically.
52:04So in many of the operations that they have done, you'll find that the TTP claims credit in something which has been done in the Baloch area.
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