- 3 hours ago
Rahul Gandhi's swipe at Prime Minister Narendra Modi's foreign policy, referencing Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni, has reignited a political row. Experts discuss whether women leaders are increasingly being drawn into political attacks to settle scores in India's political discourse.
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00:01Good evening, you're watching To The Point. I'm Preeti Chaudhary. These are the headlines.
00:07India Today exclusive Kiran Rijiju speaks to India Today on parliament washouts as government offer to debate opposition and Rahul
00:16changed goalposts and ran away from discussion.
00:42Amidst Rao over sexist remarks during Rahul's speech, BJP MP Nishikam Dubey sparks another storm.
00:49Hosts Indira Gandhi's image with Fidel Castro and Yasir Arafat. Congress slams Dubey, says Indira and Castro were like siblings.
01:03CGI calls out Bar Council action on students, says no punitive action on Nalsar students, says students have right to
01:12protest, claims Bar Council interfering unnecessarily.
01:21Airbus admits tech glitches alert in Phuket, Delhi flights, says flight lost control for four seconds, says flight lost control,
01:29admits full nose down input began.
01:38Big win for Vijay government amidst Rao over jobs to kin of Karul's stampede victim. Supreme Court stays Madras High
01:45Court order quashing jobs.
01:47High Court quashed government jobs for Karul's victim's kin.
01:59Our top focus viewers. One woman was dragged into a sexist slur, a sexist remark. Another was used to settle
02:06political scores. Both these women.
02:08One is and one was. Top-notch politicians, global leaders.
02:14In the first case, LOP Rahul Gandhi and Congress leader Sandeep Dixit brought in Italian Prime Minister Georgia Meloni to
02:22take a jibe at Prime Minister Modi's foreign policy.
02:25In the second, the BJP hit back with remarks just as misogynist, bringing former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi into the
02:34equation.
02:35Mockery disguised as quips and women once again reduced to political pawns. Here's more.
02:50Mockery disguised as quips and women.
02:56Foreign policy.
02:58Imagine the ignorance of foreign policy.
03:02I can say something. I didn't understand what I had to do.
03:10Sexist, crass and downright unnecessary.
03:16Leader of opposition Rahul Gandhi and Congress leader Sandeep Dixit's kit may have intended to mock Prime Minister Narendra Modi's
03:24foreign policy.
03:25But at the centre of it was a head of state who was used to take a jibe at another.
03:31The two Congress leaders hugged each other, taking a jibe at what they claimed was the Prime Minister's fondness for
03:38hugging world leaders.
03:39Sandeep Dixit then went on to ask whether Rahul Gandhi had hugged him, thinking he was Italian Prime Minister Giorgia
03:46Meloni.
03:47Imagine that.
03:48They don't know where they were in their heads.
03:51Now they are huyling from strange things.
03:53But they are huyling from their minds that foreign policy is this.
04:08I don't know who has put it, where did it go?
04:13That means foreign policy, imagine the ignorance of foreign policy.
04:32The exchange drew laughter from the audience,
04:35but soon drew widespread criticism for singling out a sitting foreign leader for a mere punchline.
04:42The Congress has defended Rahul Gandhi saying he merely showed how the Prime Minister meets world leaders
04:49and is not responsible for the actions of others.
05:12But the BJP has slammed Rahul Gandhi for crossing the line, calling the remarks obscene
05:17and disgraceful.
05:37He was resorting to cheap innuendos and he was indulging in locker room talk.
05:43This country deserves better than a 56 year old man like Rahul Gandhi behaving in a juvenile manner.
05:52But BJP MP Nishikand Dubey's reply smacks of equal amount of misogyny if not more, using clear sexual innuendo.
06:01In a post on X, Nishikand Dubey shared photographs of former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi with Cuban revolutionary Fidel Castro
06:10and Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat, asking if Rahul Gandhi would term them the fire of lust.
06:19After one woman found herself dragged into a distasteful remark, another has been used to settle the political scores.
06:27From ridiculing an opponent's credibility, politics has been reduced to mockery disguised as quips.
06:36And women, as ever, remain the easiest targets.
06:40Bureau Report, India Today.
06:55The latest news break coming in.
06:57The MEA has taken on the Congress amidst what was termed as a sexist remark and was a sexist remark.
07:04The Ministry of External Affairs says we have strong ties with Italy and we want to strengthen it further and
07:11matters should be raised with respect.
07:13This of course was in context of Sandeep Dixit bringing in Georgia Meloni's name yesterday when Rahul Gandhi was launching
07:25an attack on the Prime Minister.
07:27Listen in.
07:29We have strong ties with Italy.
07:33Our ties with Italy in recent years have expanded and strengthened in every which way.
07:38And it's important that as part of diplomatic practice that we strengthen our ties keeping in mind and being respectful
07:45of each other and this mutual understanding between the two sides.
07:53All right, so that is the Ministry of External Affairs getting in.
07:56But let's cut across to our panelists this evening.
07:58Joining me, Tuhin Sinha, Bharatiya Janata Party spokesperson.
08:02Ms. Aarti Jairath, senior journalist.
08:04Rajat Sethi, political analyst.
08:06Ashutosh, political analyst.
08:08I'd like to begin with Aarti Jairath to bring you in.
08:13Because at one end you've had somebody like a Sandeep Dixit who's clearly resorted to what is a very accepted
08:21casual sexism in Indian politics dragging the name of a very accomplished leader, a G7 nation leader.
08:28And then, as a matter of fact, you have Rahul Gandhi laughing at the back of it.
08:33The BJP could have easily taken the high moral ground, asked for an apology which was due and is still
08:39due.
08:39But on the other account, the hit back was from senior leader, parliamentarian Nishikant Dube bringing in nobody else but
08:48Indira Gandhi into this.
08:50And making a sexist slur practically as bad, if not worse.
08:56Absolutely, Priti.
08:58I'm so glad you've taken up this issue because this misogyny we see amongst our male politicians has been there
09:06for years.
09:07And, you know, I am really surprised at the two of them, Sandeep Dixit and Rahul Gandhi, both of whom
09:16are sons of prominent women politicians, women leaders, you know, who have been good leaders in their own right.
09:26I mean, Sheila Dixit is one of the most admired chief ministers that Delhi has had.
09:31And so Nia Gandhi, of course, you know, as we know, she led the party to victory for two terms
09:36in 2004.
09:38So, you know, I am really surprised at them. It just doesn't behold them.
09:44But this is not the first time. You remember Nadesh Adhawal, when he called when he called Jaya Bachchan and
09:49Nachnawali on the floor of the house in the Rajasaba.
09:54Azam Khan, when he, you know, talked about Jaya Pradha's khaki underwear.
09:59I mean, you know, it's just I don't know. I think they just have no control over their tongues.
10:04And it's just so easy for them to make, you know, women the punching bag.
10:10And, you know, I mean, this is actually the main reason why we need to get that 33% reservation
10:17for women into parliament, because we need to have more women to shout these men down.
10:24It's just unacceptable.
10:24You know, but Ms. Jaira, I don't even know if that will help, because a lot of women are quite
10:28okay with this casual sexism.
10:30And that's the fact. I don't think it's a gender issue. I think it's just how it is.
10:35They're completely okay with it. They're okay laughing. They're okay participating in humor sometimes, which is outrightly sexist.
10:42I just want to bring in our other guests as well. And let's get a timer going.
10:45So each one has exactly the time that they've spoken for and is counted for.
10:49So nobody is seemingly getting extra time there.
10:52I want to bring in Tuhin Sinha into this conversation first.
10:55Tuhin Sinha, this was an opportunity for the BJP that was handed to you in a platter.
10:59You could have, and you still should, but you could have then taken the high moral ground, asked for an
11:06apology.
11:07But what the BJP did was reply misogyny with some more misogyny.
11:11And I'm talking about in context here, Tuhin Sinha, with what Dr. Nishukam Dubey posted on the social media platforms.
11:20Good evening.
11:21Go ahead.
11:22Good evening, Freeti.
11:23Good evening, everybody.
11:24You know, Rahul Gandhi's behavior yesterday was so perverse, so cheap, so wicked that today Congress representatives' absence on your
11:34show confirms that even they are ashamed of his behavior.
11:37So please don't, you know, feel any compulsion to draw an unnecessary equivalence with what Nishikan Dubey has posted.
11:44Nishikan Dubey, I don't condone the words of Nishikan Dubey ji.
11:48But the picture needed to be posted to make Rahul Gandhi understand that personal gestures like hugging or handshake is
11:57a part of diplomacy.
11:58Is a part of the camaraderie.
12:00One second.
12:00Tuhin Sinha, I'll never hold somebody's timer, but allow me to hold it.
12:04Are you actually sitting here and telling me that that picture of Indira Gandhi and the choice of words by
12:09Nishikan Dubey needed to be posted?
12:11No, no, again, again, you can't.
12:13I said the picture he posted.
12:13You're just saying this, sir.
12:14I'm not saying it.
12:15You're saying it.
12:15No, no, no.
12:16You have to have the habit of learning.
12:20I said the picture he posted had to be posted to make Rahul Gandhi understand that these are gestures.
12:27These gestures are part of diplomacy.
12:28I don't condone the words.
12:30Now, do you understand what I said?
12:32No, I'll hold your timer again.
12:33No, I don't understand.
12:34I don't understand what you said because Tuhin Sinha.
12:37Then what you're saying, sir, I'll just hold your timer and I will give you as much time.
12:40But I have to say this.
12:42I will have to say that you ask me a question if I understand it.
12:46But Tuhin Sinha, I don't understand it.
12:48You can shout me down, but you asked me a question.
12:50I need my two minutes of time.
12:51You will get your time.
12:52You will get your time.
12:54But you asked me a question.
12:56So allow me to answer.
12:57You said now, do you understand it?
12:59No, I don't understand it.
13:00I do not understand that any political party need to deride a woman of dignity to prove a political point
13:06to the other party.
13:07No.
13:08It was wrong.
13:08You shouldn't have done it.
13:10Your time.
13:11Your time.
13:11No, I will never understand it, sir.
13:13So don't waste your time on me on this argument.
13:15No, so that's your problem.
13:15If you are hard of understanding, that's your problem.
13:18But it's a fact that Rahul Gandhi had to be reminded these are part of diplomacy.
13:24You can't, you know, you can't reduce diplomacy.
13:27You may criticize India's, you know, relations with India's foreign policy, but you can't resort to these kind of cheap
13:34antics over here.
13:35Now point is, today the onus is on Sonia Gandhi, today the onus is on Priyanka Gandhi, today the onus
13:41is on Dimple Yadav and today the onus is on Mamata Banerjee to come out and seek an apology from
13:46Rahul Gandhi.
13:47And number two, you know, this is not the first time that Rahul Gandhi has embarrassed India internationally.
13:52Do you know that from 2018 onwards, the French president has visited India four times, but he has not visited,
13:59he has not met Rahul Gandhi once.
14:01And this is what Melanie apparently would do from here.
14:05This is how you disgrace somebody who has an excellent rapport with the Indian Indian leadership.
14:10So I think, you know, it is for Kharge, it is for Khargeji to really seek an explanation and possibly
14:15ask Rahul to step down as LOP.
14:18But what we saw yesterday was the lowest form of politics.
14:22It was not politics.
14:23It was the worst form of, you know, stand up comedy.
14:27So anyway, you know, I don't think I can, you know, I should go on and on.
14:32But point is that Sandeep Dixit owes his career to a woman.
14:36And, you know, for him to make such a ludicrous, such a preposterous comment only shows I won't fault his
14:41upbringing.
14:42I know Shila Dixit was a great lady.
14:44But these people out of sheer frustration with their repeated defeats have lost their mental balance.
14:49I think that I would be very surprised if we, to say that, you know, if they...
14:57Sir, your time is up.
14:59And I don't, you know, I don't even want to get into what you just defended and explained.
15:04That's for the people to understand that, because this is exactly what I was speaking of.
15:08Because you are justifying a woman who was the Prime Minister of our country,
15:13with her dignity, being bought in.
15:15And I will say it for what is, what was said by Dr. Nishikant Dube,
15:19where there is an image that he pulls out of Indira Gandhi,
15:24hugging Fidel Castro, shaking hands with Yasir Arafat,
15:28and asking Rahul Gandhi whether this was lust.
15:32And you are telling me that this needed to be put to remind...
15:36One second, sir, that this, allow me, that this needed to be put to remind the Congress
15:41that this is diplomacy.
15:43No, sir, this did not need to be put.
15:45What should have happened was ask for an apology, which should have been given.
15:50But what you've done is replied misogyny with more misogyny, because this is what Indian politics is today.
15:55But having said that, I'll come back to you.
15:57Allow me to bring in other guests.
15:59Allow me to bring in other guests.
16:00Allow me to bring in other guests.
16:01No, sir, I cannot allow you.
16:02You will have your time.
16:03I will come back to you.
16:04Don't unnecessarily confuse your views.
16:05Sir, it's not between you and I.
16:06I'm sorry, it's become between you and I.
16:08Don't unnecessarily confuse your views.
16:08Allow me to circle back to you.
16:10I want to bring in Ashutosh into this conversation.
16:12Ashutosh, there is one point that Tuhin Sinha made, and that is true.
16:16That the Congress today is too ashamed to even send a representative here on the show.
16:20Because what happened on that stage was not just bizarre.
16:24It was astounding that in a manner of which a world leader's name was dragged in, and then it was
16:31what, there were laughs, even by Rahul Gandhi.
16:37See, Preeti, first thing first.
16:40This is whatever happened, and the Congress Rachanatmak rally or whatever is condemnable.
16:47It's despicable.
16:48It is disgusting.
16:50And there is no pardon here.
16:54If Sandeep Dixit can make a statement like this, I'm really astounded.
17:00I always thought that he's not an idiot, but he has made an idiot of himself.
17:07And Rahul Gandhi should have immediately interrupted. Rahul Gandhi did not do it.
17:11So Rahul Gandhi is equally accomplished in this.
17:13And both, they owe an apology to the nation, and to the Melanie, and to the Prime Minister Narendra Modi
17:22both.
17:23There is no if and but on this.
17:26But, if other people are trying to wrap themselves in some glory, then they should look within.
17:33I don't want to talk about this man who calls Nehru a yash.
17:39I don't want to take his name.
17:40It is so despicable.
17:42And he's bringing out Mrs. Gandhi's picture with Fidel Castro.
17:46Is he worse than Sandeep Dixit?
17:49Or is he better than Sandeep Dixit that the nation has to decide?
17:52Right?
17:52And these are the people who called Sonia Gandhi Congress ki bidua?
17:57Who called Chalice Keroor ki girlfriend?
18:00Who called Sonia Gandhi Jarsi Kao?
18:02Who called Rahul Gandhi hybrid bacha?
18:05Who called Ramesh Viduri?
18:12There's a list of people.
18:14I'm not getting into this, but the sad part is Indian political discourse has come to this.
18:19This law that neither the Congress nor the BJP both are equally sinner in this.
18:25And both should be condemned.
18:28And if Sandeep Dixit did it, I think Sandeep Dixit owe an apology.
18:32And even Rahul Gandhi should also apologize.
18:34But the other person belongs to the BJP.
18:36I don't want to take his name.
18:37Because I don't think that he...
18:40Okay.
18:41The fact is, yes, Sandeep Dixit needed to apologize, should apologize.
18:46And yes, so should Rahul Gandhi.
18:47Why?
18:48Because Rahul Gandhi did laugh at the back of it.
18:51And this entire show today...
18:52This entire show today, Rajat, would have been about that.
18:56Would have been about seeking an apology from the Congress.
18:59But...
19:00And the BJP would have come out at least in this debate smelling of roses
19:05because they had asked for a debate, asked for an apology.
19:07But what has happened at the course of that?
19:10Would you agree, Rajat, with what's happened?
19:16So, first of all, you know, it's not a matter of a political win when a woman that too ahead
19:25of the state is being...
19:26So, I mean, had this remark from Nishikand Dube not come, even then, it's not a matter to be celebrated
19:35by the BJP as well.
19:37But having said that, I think what Rahul Gandhi, with his laughter and the entire audience, when they giggled on
19:47this remark, was, I think, the lowest point that Congress's national convention could have reached to.
19:54Again, having said that, I don't think what Nishikand Dube intended or intention or anything of that sort matters.
20:04What he said was equally class.
20:06You know, I think the women of this country are reaching a tipping point.
20:11You've seen Gen Z protesters, you've seen all kinds of generations protesting.
20:15I think things are reaching to such a tipping point that you...
20:19I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if women hit the streets again.
20:23Demanding something which is duly and rightfully a dignified position in public life.
20:29That's not asking too much.
20:32And if you leave it to the men of this country, you won't get it.
20:35It is therefore important that women take charge one way or the other.
20:39The women leaders, that too, women leaders from both the Congress party as well as the BJP, should step out.
20:46At least pick one issue where you can not be belonging to a political party.
20:51Where you can step out of your differences and call spade a spade.
20:54Try and pull down your party leaders who make such crass remarks.
20:58Let there be no politics about it.
20:59It's not something where one party has to gain a brownie point at the cost of the other.
21:03And I think, I feel that, and I feel increasingly, women of this country are getting restless.
21:09They won't take this lying down easily.
21:12There will be repercussions of this.
21:14And I believe people like Sandeep Dixit and Nishikant Dubey...
21:18Fair point. Your time's up.
21:20But you know, he's making a strong point.
21:22And I want to give all our panelists one minute each to put their point forward.
21:25Because something is shifting.
21:27You can't sit in moral judgement when you're doing exactly the same thing.
21:31You cannot.
21:32People are seeing through you.
21:34They will call you out.
21:35One minute each, Aarti Jairat.
21:38So, you know, I think Rajat made a very, very valuable point.
21:43Because I remember when, you know, the things were said about Jaya Bakchan in the Rajasaba.
21:50BJP leaders, Sushma Saraj and all, came out in her defense and demanded an apology from Nadesh Agarwal.
21:57He was forced to apologize and take back his remarks.
22:00It's very sad that, you know, the BJP women leaders did not at all condemn Nishikant Dubey.
22:07Why they condemned Rahul Gandhi and Sandeep Dixit and rightly so.
22:11They did not condemn Nishikant Dubey.
22:14You know, and I mean, Nishikant Dubey should be condemned equally as much as Rahul Gandhi and Sandeep Dixit.
22:20I'll hold your time.
22:21I'll hold your time.
22:22But it's the same thing.
22:23The most Congress leaders, which are women, haven't condemned Sandeep Dixit.
22:27They've condemned Nishikant Dubey, but they haven't condemned Sandeep Dixit.
22:30Absolutely.
22:31No woman has come out to condemn.
22:33No woman political leader.
22:36I mean, forget Congress, I don't expect them to say anything.
22:40But, you know, none of the other political leaders, women political leaders that we have, have said anything about either
22:47of the two rivals.
22:51Fair point.
22:52Short of time, I want to bring in last one minute.
22:55Tuhin Sinha, one minute.
22:57Make your points.
22:58Well, you know, Preeti, I hope you'd appreciate that I follow exemplary debating etiquette.
23:03So, you know, when I get interrupted, it just breaks my flow.
23:06What I said was very simple.
23:08There are hundreds of handles which have posted that video of Indira Gandhi.
23:12But the words that follow cannot be condoned.
23:15They are, they were clearly avoidable.
23:17I think there is a distinction over here.
23:19Rahul Gandhi needed to be reminded that hugs or, you know, handshakes or, you know, personal gestures have been a
23:26part of diplomacy.
23:27You know, because, you know, the equation between two leaders only enhances the equation between two countries.
23:33But obviously, somebody who has rubbed every country the wrong way.
23:37Rahul Gandhi has spread all kinds of canards even during the Rafaldi.
23:41That is perhaps the reason why the French president has not met him for the last eight years.
23:44Last year, he was very upset why President Putin did not meet him.
23:47These are the reasons, if Rahul Gandhi does not realize, I think it's high time.
23:52The Congress takes a stand and asks him to step down as LOP.
23:56I think it's high time the women leaders, especially his mother and his sister,
24:01who sermonize ad nauseam on women empowerment, seek an apology.
24:05All right. Fair point.
24:07Seek an apology from Dr. Nishikhand Dubey as well, sir.
24:10But fair point, fair point.
24:12One minute, Ashutosh, make your point, sir.
24:16You know, you know, Preeti, the biggest disappointment I had with the parliament was when this gentleman was doing character
24:24assassination of our former prime ministers
24:26and using all kinds of slurs and abuses.
24:29And parliament did react to that.
24:32The speaker did not react to that.
24:34And he, in fact, repeated the same thing about Nehru in the parliament again.
24:39A large chunk of the opposition leaders' speeches were expunged, but not his.
24:46This is what, so let's not blame one individual here or other.
24:50The whole, every institution in this country has come to a pass where everybody has to think.
24:55And that is why people are on the streets.
24:57Because they do not trust the political establishment because they know the one person's abuse will be celebrated by another
25:05person
25:05and the other person's abuse will be celebrated by a third person.
25:09And this is what exactly is happening.
25:10This is not a ping pong between the BGP and the Congress.
25:13There are certain universal values which has to be adhered and has to be celebrated
25:16and it should not be tolerated come what may be.
25:21Sir, time's up.
25:22One minute, Ranjit Sethi, make your point.
25:25Well, I think I've said what I had to.
25:27But, you know, the problem between duplicity and being hypocritical is really appalling.
25:34I mean, if you see a few days back, Rahul Gandhi was talking about in his cargo jeans
25:38and trying to sound very cool, somebody who's going to smash patriarchy
25:43and, you know, use those liberal jargons in a way as if he deeply meant all of this.
25:49You know, and your real intent comes out instinctively.
25:52The instinctive words that he used when Sandeep Dixit made these cross remarks
25:59made the whole thing even more vulgar.
26:01When he said that I had not come to it yet.
26:03I mean, it was, he understood, but his instinctive and a reflexive reaction was
26:08that, hey, I will come to Meloni.
26:10So that was going to be part of his trajectory to stoop down to.
26:15And the entire audience, he didn't even get a moment to reflect.
26:18I mean, he could have gone, he slept over it.
26:20He could have come in the morning wearing his famous cargo pants
26:23and started to, you know, stepped out and he could have come out with an apology.
26:27He did not do that, which is...
26:30Alright, well, you know, that's all the time I have for it.
26:32I apologize, but, you know, this debate should have been longer.
26:34But thank you, with all four of you, for taking the time out and joining us today.
26:37For someone who has looked at Indian politics, viewers, this is what I have to say.
26:42The last 24 hours, viewers.
26:45The last 24 hours have exposed an uncomfortable truth.
26:51Ideology may divide our political class, but misogyny unites it.
26:55Yesterday, Rahul Gandhi held a press conference attacking the Modi government's diplomatic approach.
27:00But standing beside him was Congress leader Sandeep Dixit.
27:03Gandhi hugged him to make a point about diplomacy.
27:07Dixit then joked, did you hug me thinking I was Meloni?
27:11Referring very clearly to Italian Prime Minister Georgia Meloni.
27:15Rahul Gandhi replied, I have not reached there yet.
27:18This was a cheap joke and it was deeply sexist.
27:21But casual sexism is very much part of our politics.
27:25Georgia Meloni is a democratically elected world leader.
27:29Not a prop for political banter.
27:30Everybody knows it, but she's fair game, clearly.
27:32If the Congress wants to speak credibly about gender justice,
27:37Sandeep Dixit should have apologized.
27:39Plainly and publicly.
27:42No excuses, no deflection, no double standards.
27:44The BJP was absolutely entitled to demand that apology.
27:48But then, the BJP did what Indian politics does far too often.
27:53It answered misogyny with more misogyny.
27:57BJP leader Dr. Nishikan Dube posted a photograph of Indira Gandhi embracing Fidel Castro
28:03and asked whether Rahul Gandhi would call this lust.
28:07Think about that choice of word, viewers.
28:10There are countless photographs of former Prime Minister and Congress leader Rajiv Gandhi
28:14embracing foreign digritories.
28:16But Mr. Dube deliberately did choose Indira Gandhi.
28:20And then attached a sexual insinuation to that image.
28:24So an insult to Georgia Meloni was answered with an insult to Indira Gandhi.
28:29Different parties, same instinct.
28:31Put a woman at the centre of the punchline.
28:34And that is precisely the point.
28:36This is not about defending the Congress.
28:39Sandeep Dixit was wrong.
28:40He should apologize.
28:41Rahul Gandhi laughed at the back of that comment.
28:44He should be sorry.
28:45It is also not about defending the BJP.
28:49Nishikan Dube's response was, if not worse, equally revealing.
28:54Because misogyny does not become acceptable when it is used as political retaliation.
28:59Women should not become ammunition every time politicians run out of arguments.
29:04But our politicians know that.
29:06Not Georgia Meloni.
29:08Not Indira Gandhi.
29:09Not any woman.
29:10So yes, ideology divides our political class.
29:13But when it comes to using women as the easiest targets in a political fight, they seem remarkably united.
29:21All right.
29:22With that, we are going to quickly cut across to the other story that we are tracking very closely.
29:27It's just been, what, 24 hours.
29:29The Bar Council of India went from threatening the entire future of Nalsar's 2026 badge to completely backing down.
29:37First, a blanket ban on enrollment as advocates.
29:40Why?
29:40Because these young students who were passing out at their convocation ceremony said that they did not want the Chief
29:46Justice of India as their chief guest.
29:48However, there was a history withdrawal.
29:51All of this stemmed from students, like I said, of the law school opposing the invitation to Chief Justice Surya
29:58Kant as chief guest for their convocation.
30:00The space for dissent for students is once again under question.
30:09The Nalsar University in Hyderabad is in eye of a storm.
30:13The Bar Council of India briefly froze enrollment of Nalsar's 2026 graduates after students objected to inviting Chief Justice of
30:22India Surya Kant as the chief guest for convocation ceremony.
30:26Around 450 students of Hyderabad's premier law school, Nalsar, had written to the university administration, opposing the invitation to the
30:35Chief Justice.
30:37The Bar Council's directive sparked outrage, forcing it to backtrack.
30:42Bar Council chairman Manan Kumar Mishra posted a message on X announcing he was withdrawing all action against students.
30:51But he still wants students to voice opinions with respect and institutional decorum.
30:56Saying while dissent is welcomed in a democracy, public ridicule is often counterproductive.
31:02The order to ban the students from getting enrolled, that was improper.
31:09We also realized, we received a report that students, most of the students are innocent.
31:16And some internal politics of teachers was going on.
31:19We have no concern with the internal politics of any teacher or anybody.
31:23Therefore, we dropped the matter and the matter stands closed.
31:28Now, Chief Justice Surya Kant has also stepped in.
31:31The CGI directed that no punitive action will be taken against Nalsar's students.
31:36Adding that the Bar Council has nothing to do with the matter.
31:41The legal fraternity has echoed a similar line.
31:44The decision of BCI was wrong. It was a harsh decision. It was a illegal decision.
31:50And I am very happy to see that that decision has been rolled back.
31:54These students, in some days, who have colleagues in the Bar,
31:58and the harsh decisions are not correct.
32:03You can understand what kind of an example he is setting up the impressionable minds.
32:09Because the present generation of these students are actually the future of the legal profession.
32:15It's a very serious issue.
32:16And I think it needs to be debated whether a person like this can continue indefinitely
32:21and whether he should be allowed to pass orders.
32:26But Union Minister Kiran Rijiju has urged that all institutions must exercise tolerance despite differing opinions.
32:36We must be tolerant to each other. We all must respect each other.
32:43The chief justice of India is head of the Indian judiciary.
32:48His position has to be given due respect.
32:53If you are not prepared to invite or if you are there to prevent the entry of any person whom
33:01you don't like,
33:03the institution cannot run that way.
33:05The controversy has once again ignited the debate on space for dissent in India's education institutions.
33:13Bureau Report, India Today.
33:17Alright, at the back of all of this, there had been the Kokoro Janata Party,
33:21which had said it is a time to ask for the resignation of Manan Kumar Mishra,
33:26who is the Bar Council of India's chairperson.
33:28Joining me right now is Saurav Das, chief spokesperson of the Kokoro Janata Party.
33:34Saurav, the Supreme Court has also now sought a response from the BCCI on its circular,
33:38saying no punitive action be taken against Nalsar students or faculty members.
33:42You guys had said that you would agitate at the back of what happened.
33:46Are you satisfied with the Chief Justice of India now stepping in and saying this is between the students and
33:52him?
33:53Preeti, what the Supreme Court has done, we welcome that decision.
33:58However, you know, the entire letter, the notification or the order, whatever you call it,
34:04was withdrawn by the Bar Council of India.
34:07So there remains nothing to do legally as such.
34:09But however, the Supreme Court's comments are welcome.
34:12It shouldn't have happened in the first place.
34:15And this kind of order is simply dictatorial,
34:19because you can't have these young students who have spent years together preparing for a law examination,
34:25getting into that most, one of the most prestigious law schools in the country,
34:30you know, working and doing so much hard work at the end,
34:34being, you know, insulted in this manner by someone who's supposed to be the head of an institution that will
34:42regulate their profession.
34:44So it shouldn't have happened in the first place.
34:46It speaks volumes about the kind of people that are in the institutions in our country.
34:53Sort of the Bar Council of India chairman, Manan Mishra, also responded to you directly on social media,
34:58that the circular has been withdrawn in completion.
35:01And is that enough?
35:03Or do you think there will still be an attempt to hound certain students
35:06who were at the forefront of protesting against the Chief Justice of India's invitation for their convocation?
35:15I want to make it very clear that this India that we are living in today is post-Jantar Mantar
35:22India.
35:23Attempts to intimidate students, attempts to intimidate protesters, organizers of such protests,
35:29and people who are just speaking out against this corrupt, broken system,
35:35I don't think that can be done anymore.
35:37The students at Nalsar are brilliant persons.
35:41They will be brilliant lawyers, I'm sure, in the future.
35:44You can't be doing all of this and trying to scare them off.
35:47If anything, it will only strengthen their resolve.
35:50Number two, the order has been withdrawn, sure.
35:54But then what about the accountability?
35:56Now, if your mindset is such that you would pass such a dictatorial order
36:01and try to, you know, ruin the entire batch of students' future,
36:07then it speaks volumes about what you have done in your tenure as the chairman of the Bar Council of
36:13India.
36:13Remember, Preeti, that he's been the chairperson since 2012,
36:19and he will be till 2030 of this very important institution which is supposed to regulate and regulate the advocates,
36:27bring out rules and regulations for them and also weed out corrupt and, you know, the bad apples in the
36:35profession.
36:36That is not happening.
36:37So, Mr. Manan Mishra should be answering what all did he do since 2012?
36:43Because, you know, last I was reading up on his tenure, the Supreme Court is criticizing him for sitting on
36:50several disciplinary complaints against advocates.
36:54They are not being weeded out from the system under him.
36:57Number two, 14 crores in the last one year have been spent by the Bar Council of India for travel
37:04expenses,
37:04for holding meetings, for holding conferences.
37:07Now, he should, he should also tell us, give us the, actually publish the minutes of the meetings,
37:14where this decision, you know, this draconian decision was taken,
37:17because that is, and my hunch is, and this is what I've been told by people inside the system,
37:22that no such meetings take place, no such conferences take place, right?
37:26And Mr. Manan Mishra, one day he feels that he wants to say something
37:30and he just brings out his letterhead and, you know, issues whatever kind of fatwa of this kind that you
37:37are seeing
37:37against students and other people in the profession.
37:40So, he should be telling us why the Supreme Court is criticizing him,
37:44why elections, internal elections are not being held in, you know, bar councils across the country under him,
37:51why 14 crores is being shown as expenses for meetings and conferences where this kind of draconian, you know,
37:59steps are being taken against students and young people.
38:02Okay.
38:02And I think there are several questions that are popping up about to stand out to something to do with
38:07institutions.
38:08Now, the CJP's founder, Abhiji Dipke, says on social media that he's trying for,
38:14he says that Manan Mishra ka istifa hona chahiye ke nahi.
38:18So, in what capacity? Is the Kaukro Janata Party now going to ask for the resignation?
38:26What route are you going to follow?
38:29See, Preeti, from day one, we've been very clear that this is a leaderless movement.
38:35Every student who is suffering at the hands of this system is a leader in their own right.
38:40Whoever protests, whoever goes online and, you know, frankly speaks their mind,
38:46everyone is a leader in their own right.
38:48And that is why we also put out a tweet yesterday that all the legal cockroaches have to unite.
38:54Legal people, law students, practicing lawyers, lawyers who have a, you know,
39:00law degree and doing something else, judges, retired judges,
39:03all of them have to speak up about what is happening in their fraternity.
39:07Because ultimately, the CGP, you know, we, there may be four, five, six, seven faces from the CGP,
39:14but we are not interested in, you know, barging into every issue and claiming credit for it.
39:19We want people from the grassroots, from the ground up to start talking about these issues,
39:25start organizing and start agitating.
39:27That is where the real awakening happens.
39:29So we want this kind of an awakening from the legal community also, and we are pushing for it.
39:34So I think lawyers across the country, lawyers based in Delhi, law students,
39:41every all well-meaning young cockroaches need to start asking questions from Manan Mishra.
39:45He needs to explain whatever has happened under his tenure.
39:49He has to tell us on what basis he took this draconian decision yesterday.
39:54So the CGP is not going to unilaterally go ahead and launch an agitation asking for that resignation
40:00because Abiji Dipke's social media tweet was a little ambiguous.
40:05Thank you, Saurav Das, for joining us with that.
40:07I want to cut across to Swapnil Kotari, senior lawyer, Supreme Court,
40:10and Shadan Farasad, senior advocate, Supreme Court.
40:13Thank you both for taking the time out and joining us.
40:16Swapnil Kotari, is there any explanation for what has happened
40:20or what the Bar Council of India chairman did within hours to only retract?
40:27Well, Preeti, it sounds a little bit knee-jerk on Mr. Mishra's behalf.
40:31The fact that he passed a diktat of that nature, which was a little tad premature in many ways.
40:38And then suddenly to retract, because then if you've taken a decision,
40:42you don't need to retract that, you can stay put with that.
40:44And I think it was a little bit too harsh to begin with.
40:49Dissent must be allowed, and it's for the CGI to take umbrage at the fact
40:53whether the kind of protest which was there was appropriate or not appropriate.
40:58And within the bounds of constitutionality and within the bounds of the fact that
41:02you've taken a high-handed attitude saying that, okay, you're not going to be the officers of the court
41:06and you are the to-be advocates, and if I were to enroll you as advocates,
41:09that is something which I should not be doing because your behaviour is not becoming or not befeiting
41:14and it does not behoove you as future lawyers if that's the way they are going to protest.
41:18Now, that is a judgement call that was not appropriate for Mr. Mishra to pass.
41:23You could have admonished them, you don't have to pass such a dictat of that sort,
41:26but you can always say that, I don't think that this dissent was appropriate,
41:29you should not have done that, you're not going to be future lawyers.
41:31It should come across as more mature, more forgiving, more kind of enterprising
41:36in the way that you are trying to teach something because you are at a position of power
41:40and you are trying to tell the young people that, yes, this was a rush of blood in our opinion
41:44or in my opinion, you should not be doing that.
41:47But to pass a dictat that I am not going to enroll you is a little tad too difficult.
41:51What about the five years that I have passed in my bar school, in my school, in my law school,
41:55having studied, having passed my exams and then just on the basis of one straight protest,
42:00are you going to deny me my right to become an advocate, which is my right to fundamental right to
42:04livelihood?
42:05So, being at the top of the Bar Council of India, you should have thought about the fundamental rights first.
42:11Apart from the fundamental right to protest, the fundamental right to livelihood,
42:13which every student, every person has. So, this, to me, if you've retracted it,
42:18it's absolutely peevish and childish in my opinion, Preeti. And it should not have been done.
42:24You should have stayed put for some more time. Let there be an hour of rousing. Let there be anger.
42:28And then, you know, maybe come out with an apology or something of that nature.
42:32And in the first place, she should not have passed that kind of a dictat at all.
42:35And then to do it within 24 hours isтАж
42:38Mr. Kothari, you know, as I bring in Mr. Farah Saad, the fact is that you said that he should
42:43have
42:43admonished them. It was a rush of blood.
42:46Since where does dissent warrant, you know, admonishment or it's a rush of blood?
42:53You know, it doesn't quite add up there. Because that's all the kids wanted.
42:56That's what they said. That they didn't want the CGI to be there.
42:59They're well within their rights to say that.
43:01And why should that be considered as a rush of blood or deserve judgment or admonishment?
43:06But having said that, I want to bring in Shadan Farah Saad. Shadan Farah Saad, what do you make of
43:10what really happened?
43:13No, I think Mr. Manan Kumar Mishra is a repeat offender.
43:16I mean, those of us who are in the legal fraternity know this is not the first time he has
43:20made comments which are beyond his remit.
43:22Bar council is a regulatory body for advocates in India and its committees have certain disciplinary powers.
43:28He himself doesn't have any disciplinary power anyway. There are specific committees which are with state bar councils.
43:33They have disciplinary powers. There's a whole due process which has to be followed.
43:37Now, he has absolutely, not just this letter, but there are enough communications before which he issues on the letterhead
43:43of Bar Council of India.
43:44My understanding is there are never any meetings held. These are his personal opinions which are passed off as the
43:49view of the Bar Council of India.
43:51And this is not the first time. There are at least two dozen I can remember. I think there's a
43:55piece in the Live Law from 2020 which catalogues a huge number of them.
44:00So he's a repeat offender. This is not the first time. And I think honestly now it's time for him
44:05to go.
44:06This is not sufficient. It's time for him to go. We cannot have a person such as him who doesn't
44:11understand the basic parameters of what his position entails should continue in a post like this.
44:18And who is passing off resolutions as Bar Council resolutions, which are his personal views on a Bar Council of
44:24India letterhead.
44:25He should, in fact, there should be an immediate audit asking for all these resolutions which he so-called, which
44:31he issues on his Bar Council of India letterhead.
44:33In how many of them even meetings are held? There is now a person from Kerala because every state has
44:39one member.
44:39My understanding is that 20 members of Bar Council of India and plus their ex-officio attorney general and solicitor
44:46general. So total there are 22 members.
44:48Now, how many of them, the Kerala member has already issued a dissent saying we were not even informed, there
44:53was no meeting, etc.
44:54Now, this kind of action with a person who doesn't understand his elementary role.
44:59He's obviously using the office for some other purpose.
45:02He has no business in being in office.
45:04And this is not the first time he's a repeat offender.
45:06He's backing off only in light of the fact that there is a serious anger.
45:10And I cannot tell you how much of the anger I have been in touch with young law students, with
45:13lawyers, with senior councils.
45:15Entire bar is outraged by this.
45:18So for him now to back off in light of what he's facing is hardly anything.
45:22I think he has no business continuing in that office.
45:25And it's time we have better people heading as the Bar Council of India as chairman.
45:29You know, I just want to give both of you 30 seconds because that's all the time I have for
45:33now.
45:34But Swapnil Kothari to bring you in taking off, you know, from what your panelists just said and to add
45:39to that.
45:40If you go back, you know, to the trajectory and the history of this individual and this gentleman, it's clearly
45:47his partisan, where there is open letters, where he's pledging support, not just of himself in as an individual, but
45:54also of the institution, which is the Bar Council of India to a particular political party.
45:59And that is clearly not kosher.
46:04Absolutely.
46:04I agree with you, Preeti.
46:05So all of those predilections which he's showing towards a political party or anything of that sort is definitely not
46:11within his remit.
46:12And that is something which needs to be questioned, which needs to be checked and investigated upon.
46:17Now, if this incident and his behavior or his reaction to this incident is something which we need to take
46:22account of and start an investigation, albeit on the basis of this, what has happened, is something which I'm absolutely
46:28welcome.
46:29And if he if he is founded not to be fit and I would go, I would want to look
46:33at the entire trajectory of events.
46:34I would look at everything possible.
46:36And to be fair, give him also a due process of being heard.
46:39Of course, he'd be given that due process before I ask him to leave or before I send him a
46:42show cause notice as to why a primitive action should not be taken against him.
46:46So he also needs to get a chance to explain himself.
46:49I'm not for a moment condemning or pardoning what he has done or anything of that sort.
46:53I only use the word admonition in the fact that, yes, you may have a viewpoint.
46:57Yes, the fact is that you're passing it off as something which is a view of the Bar Council.
47:00Okay.
47:00May not be appropriate on his behalf because that is something which you should have taken into as a proper...
47:04Fair point, Mr. Kothari.
47:05Mr. Farah Saad, can I bring you in, sir? Final comments.
47:08Yes.
47:08No, final comments is I think we have had our institutions really decay.
47:12I think this is a very good example of how bad the decay is.
47:17And I think it's real time for some serious cleanup.
47:20Lawyers, all lawyers, I think this is a moment I can see a unison of lawyers clearly making the point.
47:26And I've been in touch with a large number of them, young, old, all kinds of lawyers, who are of
47:31the view that this is not on.
47:33We, our institutions cannot continue in this form of decay.
47:36Okay.
47:37All right.
47:38I appreciate both you gentlemen for taking the time out and joining us this evening.
47:41We are going to keep a keen eye on developments here.
47:44We'll see you next time.
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