00:00David, welcome to the show. A pleasure to have your company. What a surprise.
00:03Our chief lawmaker says we should reform from within, but then doesn't sign this letter
00:10signed by nine other nations. And David, I know you're an expert on the forlorn prospect
00:16of trying to reform the ECHR from within. Tell us why you think that kind of approach
00:23is a wasted endeavour. Good afternoon, Martin. Well, I think, you know, we've just heard the
00:28Prime Minister's press conference where he was saying he was working with his partners,
00:32presumably meaning European ones. Well, that's nine that he wasn't working with because they're
00:35not part of that letter. And it seems that the nine, for instance, Denmark, Italy, you know,
00:41Belgium even wrote, obviously, saying that we need to have a grown-up conversation about reform
00:47of the ECHR. But as we know, we were not part of that. And we also know that they've said that
00:54they will not, Labour will not leave the ECHR. So we've got a bit of a problem.
01:01And the fact of the matter is, if you try and reform from within, a bit like the European Union,
01:06then every single member state has to agree to any form of change. And with the ECHR,
01:12the notion that we could say, hey, I'll tell you what, lads, we'd like to modify the ECHR. We don't
01:17want to leave it, but we'd like to modify it to make Britain a special case. That's for the birds.
01:22I think, Martin, you've got a point there. I think the problem that you've got is that
01:27when you look at it, every single country that's in the ECHR, you would imagine would want control
01:33of their borders, would be able to deport foreign criminals. That's something which the nine that
01:38signed that letter and ourselves are actually experiencing now. We're experiencing those
01:43problems. But perhaps the fact that only nine of the whole of the members of the ECHR, which I think
01:48is about 46, to sign that shows you why haven't they signed that? Why are not other people wanting
01:54to change that? And I hate to say this, but the reality is, unless we reform that or leave,
01:59we are not going to be able to get control of our borders. And we'll have human rights
02:03used against us by the people, the very bad people in this world who are effectively using
02:08our good ethics and human rights against ourselves. And that's one of the big problems that you're
02:14seeing here. Can I get your reaction to what happened at the tail end of last week,
02:19where it was announced by the Lord, the learned Lord, that it was akin to Nazi Germany to want to
02:28leave the ECHR? I mean, that was, you know, I mean, I know Lord Herman, he worked to me on a case,
02:35you know, he is an intelligent person. But what that shows, that I found frightening for several
02:40reasons, but particularly, this is the government's chief legal advisor, making such a schoolboy error
02:46and showing lack of judgment. That is very worrying in someone in that position, that's got a very,
02:52very, very important position, perhaps the most important lawyer in the country, making such a gaffe.
02:57It's very disappointing. And I think a little bit terrifying as well, if this is the person in
03:02charge of all the very substantial legal problems, for instance, the ECHR and reform that we face over
03:09the coming years, you know, a lot more than just a foolish mistake, I think. Yeah, I think you're
03:15right.
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