00:00And I'm joined here at the Munich Security Conference by Benjamin Haddad.
00:03He is France's minister for Europe.
00:05And we have some big issues to talk about with France, of course, as one of the leading
00:10forces in both NATO and the European Union.
00:12Thanks for joining us, Ben.
00:13Thanks for having me.
00:14So we've had some shocks here at the Munich Security Conference, and your president has
00:21described the interventions of Piet Hegseth at NATO as an electroshock for Europe.
00:29Of course, that was before the J.D. Vance speech.
00:32Would you say that this is just one more in a series of shocks for Europe?
00:36And what are the implications?
00:38This is indeed an electroshock.
00:40This is a wake-up call for Europeans.
00:42And this is a moment where we have to be united and step up, take matters into our own hands.
00:47We see the war of Russian aggression against Ukraine on our continent.
00:50We see the messages coming from the United States.
00:53And this is about our security as Europeans, stepping up and increasing our defense spending,
00:57increasing our cooperation, and giving ourselves the means to continue to support Ukraine as
01:02we're headed into this negotiation.
01:04A bad ceasefire, a bad negotiation, a capitulation for Putin would be in no one's interest, neither
01:09the United States nor Europeans.
01:12This is what President Macron said in the Financial Times interview.
01:16He is also famously called NATO braindead.
01:18Would you consider this along the same lines?
01:20And was there a good outcome from that sort of, you know, kind of rhetoric?
01:27And would you expect the same this time?
01:28Look, at the end of the day, when you look at what Vice President Van said yesterday,
01:32the rhetoric coming out of President Trump, you see the long-term trend of the United
01:36States basically saying that they want to pivot to Asia.
01:39You see the protectionist trends.
01:40You see the hostile messaging.
01:43And I think what President Macron has always said is Europe needs to wake up from its vacation
01:47from history.
01:48You have tensions.
01:50You have geopolitical turbulence.
01:51You have a war of Russian aggression on our border.
01:55So it's up to us to take our destiny into our hand.
01:58So this means stepping up on defense and cooperation.
02:01This means finding new financing instruments at the European level.
02:05And we've been discussing this, of course, today at the Munich Security Conference.
02:08This been also investing massively in our competitiveness, in our innovation and technology.
02:13We had this week the AI Summit, as you know, in Paris, where we announced massive investment
02:18in France and in Europe to support our tech ecosystem, our talents, our startups in AI
02:25and quantum, because also this is the condition of our sovereignty in the long run.
02:29We cannot afford to wait because the rest of the world is going fast and there's a sense
02:32of urgency now.
02:34But France must be among them.
02:36You're not the highest spenders on defense.
02:40So is he talking about France as well?
02:42Well, over the two terms of the Macron presidency, we have doubled the defense spending.
02:47And even though now we have a budget with lots of budget cuts in different directions,
02:50we're preserving the defense budget because this is the condition of our security.
02:54We're above 2 percent.
02:55We've been participating to military operations both in Europe and in Africa.
03:00You know that France is the framework great nation and Romania has troops in Estonia within
03:05the NATO reassurance.
03:06But it's true.
03:07We all need to do more.
03:08We all need to increase our cooperation.
03:10We all need to invest more in the long run.
03:13And as we think about the security guarantees that we'll need to provide Ukraine to ensure
03:18the long term stability and deterrence against further Russian aggression, European will
03:22also have to take their responsibility and face tough choices ahead.
03:27And this is why this moment is clearly an urgent wake up call.
03:30Let's talk about those security guarantees, because Ukraine has a bilateral security guarantee
03:34with every member of NATO, as well as some other countries.
03:37What are those providing at the moment?
03:40And what more can you provide, especially with France always named as the leader in
03:46preparations for some kind of ground force, if there ever were a ceasefire to maintain?
03:51Well, I think the last part of your question is actually critical, right?
03:54Because first, let's make sure that we put Ukrainians in the best possible situation
03:58on the ground to reinforce their position for a negotiation.
04:03Because otherwise, you know, you just give in to Russia and to, even though they're escalating
04:09on the ground, even though they're keeping maximalist aims against Ukraine.
04:13So you can talk all you want, you can have the commentary you want, the reality will
04:17be on the ground.
04:18Let's continue to support Ukraine and put them in the best possible situation.
04:22There can be no negotiation, no ceasefire without Ukrainians, who are the ones fighting
04:26and sacrificing, and without Europeans, because this is the security of Europe.
04:31But then the best way to ensure the stability of any kind of ceasefire is the question of
04:37security guarantees.
04:38And this is what we're also talking about with Ukrainians.
04:42You know, when I go to the different summits like this one, Ukrainians often talk about
04:47the Budapest Memorandum.
04:49You remember that in the 90s, they were asked to give up their nuclear weapons from the
04:53USSR?
04:54And promised that they would be, their security would be guaranteed.
04:56Exactly.
04:57And promised security guarantees on their borders from Russia.
04:59And we all saw that these security guarantees were not credible, and Russia reneged on it.
05:04So the key also to long-term peace, to a stable peace, to the development and reconstruction
05:08of Ukraine, to the anchoring of Ukraine as a European democracy to our continent, will
05:13be also making sure that we have credible deterrence and security guarantees.
05:17And this will also be the responsibility of Europeans.
05:19But it's easy to say that we would need security guarantees for these troops on the ground.
05:24It's not easy to figure out how those would happen, especially now that the U.S. has ruled
05:28that out.
05:29Although, to be fair, you and I know the U.S. was never considered likely to put troops
05:32on the ground.
05:33But now that they have explicitly said, you can't be covered by Article 5, because this
05:37would not be a NATO operation, what are you guys thinking?
05:40When you say France is making preparations, what could that possibly mean?
05:44How do you put soldiers there when you don't know how you could protect them?
05:47As I said, the first priority is to make sure that we put Ukrainians in the best possible
05:51position for a negotiation, right?
05:53So before even talking about this, let's first make sure that Ukrainians are in the best
05:58position on the ground for a ceasefire.
06:01But I would say, you know, you talk about the United States maybe not being committed
06:04or involved.
06:05Is it in the interest of the United States to have maybe Russia re-attack in a couple
06:10years?
06:11Is it in the interest of the United States to have Russia re-arm, re-double on its aggression?
06:15What kind of message and signal will that send to the rest of the world, to other theaters
06:20when you think about Asia, when you think about the credibility of U.S. power?
06:25So I think that's also a question that U.S. strategists and leaders will have to ask themselves.
06:29And those questions are being posed to them, but at the moment the answer is, we're not
06:33going.
06:34It's up to you, Europe.
06:35So what could it look like?
06:36I mean, you guys are supposed to have been thinking about this for quite a while.
06:40What are the possible configurations of such a force?
06:42Well, this is a conversation we'll have to have with other Europeans, with the Ukrainians
06:47as well, because this is really also about the security and sovereignty of Ukraine.
06:50As I said, they're the ones who are fighting.
06:52They're the ones who are dying, sacrificing not only for their freedom, democracy and
06:56sovereignty, but for ours, for our security as Europeans.
07:00And this is what will be committed in the long run.
07:02And with fears about a U.S. withdrawal in some ways, not a complete withdrawal from
07:06NATO perhaps, does this put more pressure on France as a nuclear power to perhaps consider
07:10extending the nuclear umbrella, which now comes from the United States, to actually
07:15centering that here?
07:16What are you guys thinking about that?
07:17It puts more pressure on all of us to step up.
07:20OK, well, that's a non-answer there, Minister Haddad.
07:24But final question.
07:26We could have had this conversation three years ago when the war started about Europe
07:29knowing it needed more defense spending, a lot of pressure now.
07:34That wasn't enough of a shock.
07:36That wasn't the shock that Europe needed.
07:38Is this new administration's rhetoric going to do more to unify Europe and strengthen
07:44Europe's resolve than the full-scale invasion of Ukraine?
07:49We could and should have had this conversation 30 years ago when we had a genocide on the
07:53European soil in Bosnia and we weren't able to stop it in Srebrenica.
07:57We could have had it in 2007 when Putin gave his infamous speech at the Munich Security
08:01Conference, in 2008 after the aggression on Georgia, or in 2014 with the annexation of
08:07Crimea and already the war through proxies in the Donbas.
08:12And we should have had it also in 2016 after the first Trump election, or maybe when President
08:17Obama did not intervene in Syria after the red line, or maybe when the Biden administration
08:23withdrew unilaterally from Afghanistan without telling European allies or did the IRA at
08:28the expense of European companies.
08:29OK, but you're making my point.
08:31What makes you think it will happen now?
08:32Well, there's a sense of urgency, but it's true.
08:35I mean, we need now this wake-up.
08:38It's been too long.
08:39There's been a sense of denial for too long that we have a vacation of history, that war
08:44is away from Europe, that we can live with the dividends of peace.
08:48And we see now that we're under pressure, that others are accelerating, that we have
08:52war at our border.
08:54And now, you know, it's a time for Europe, and we need to use this moment as an opportunity.
08:58But yes, you're right to underscore the sense of urgency.
09:01All right.
09:02Well, thank you very much.
09:04That's Ben Haddad, Minister for Europe, for France.
