00:00This week on the Europe Conversation on Euronews, I catch up with French EU Affairs Minister
00:12Benjamin Haddad, and I ask him whether Europe can supply security guarantees for Ukraine
00:18without a US backstop. He also discusses why France is ready to extend its nuclear guarantees
00:24to the rest of Europe.
00:26Minister, thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:31Thanks for having me.
00:32I just want to start off with where we are right now, what your assessment is. President
00:37Macron saying that he's willing to extend nuclear deterrent guarantees for the course
00:41of Europe. We also have leaders in Poland and Latvia saying they're going to train men
00:47of military age, talking about conscription. We're really entering a new era.
00:53We have the questions arising from the United States about the future of the transatlantic
00:57relationship, and this is a moment for us to take our destiny into our own hands. We've
01:04been seeing in the last few years, the last few decades, Europeans sliding behind when
01:09it comes to defence, when it comes to tech, investment in AI or quantum, when it comes
01:14to industry. And this is a moment where we can come together, unite, invest massively
01:22into our strategic autonomy through defence.
01:25What is your assessment of what Donald Trump, the actions of the White House in relation
01:28to Ukraine, stopping the military intelligence which has been exploited and also stopping
01:33weapons?
01:34I think they go against even the interest of the United States. How could it be in the
01:39interest of the United States to give a victory to Putin, to show capitulation in Ukraine?
01:45What kind of message would that send to China and to other competitors? And if you allow
01:51me to take a step back on this, the truth is we've seen a longer-term trend in the last
01:5610, 15 years from the United States. It's President Obama who talked about Europeans
02:01being free riders, who did not respect the red line in Syria. It's the first term of
02:08President Trump, we already talked about trade conflicts or defence spending. And even under
02:14the Biden administration, which in the tone was much more sympathetic, of course, we had
02:18the unilateral withdrawal from Afghanistan that was done without coordination with allies
02:23like Germany and Britain who were on the ground. We had AUKUS, the submarine crisis with France,
02:31and we had the IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act, a massive protectionist programme which
02:35amplified everything the Trump administration was doing on protectionism without any coordination
02:41with the Europeans. So you see these trends of the US focusing on itself, focusing on
02:47Asia, protectionist trends, you know, leaving the WTO, for example, at the expense of Europeans.
02:56So we need to see the writing on the wall.
02:59But it looks like that the United States hasn't called for Putin or Russia to make any concessions
03:04while President Zelensky is expected to sign this minerals deal.
03:08You're completely right. We need to continue to increase the pressure on Russia. No negotiation
03:12about the security of Ukraine can be done without Ukrainians, and no negotiation about
03:17the security of Europe can be done without Europeans. And Europeans will play a key role
03:23in any form of security guarantee in the long run, and this is why we need to be around
03:29the table.
03:29But we don't have any guarantee, and it's not likely to be forthcoming in relation to
03:33a backstop from the United States. I mean, President Macron had a very cordial meeting
03:38with President Trump a short time ago, but nothing substantial emerged from it. Can Europe
03:43defend Ukraine so there isn't a Minsk I, Minsk II situation without a backstop from the United
03:49States?
03:49This is why we continue our dialogue with the United States on the need for the US to
03:55stay committed to the security of Ukraine, because once again, it is not sending a message
03:59of force to other competitors in the US if you lead to a situation where Russia can just
04:04rearm and re-attack Ukraine. It would be not in the interest, of course, of Europeans
04:09and Ukrainians, but not in the interest of the US either.
04:12But can Europe do it? I mean, we're talking about a short time ahead, potentially, because
04:16Donald Trump is putting huge pressure on President Zelensky to come to the table. He says that
04:20Putin wants to end it. He wants this to be over. He wants to pivot to China and so on.
04:27So can Europe do it without a backstop from the United States?
04:31Look, at the very least, I can tell you that this is why President Macron has asked the
04:36government and other European governments are looking at stepping up our support for
04:41Ukraine and replacing the support from the United States, because once again, it is the
04:46security of Europe that is being played in Ukraine and stepping up also on security guarantees
04:51while keeping our dialogue with the United States.
04:53So potentially looking at Europe doing it without the United States, if it has to be?
04:58Not speculating on scenarios in the long run, because we're keeping our dialogue with
05:02the United States. Once again, it's our security interest on both sides that's at play. But
05:08this is also why you see Europeans stepping up both on the support of Ukraine and in defense
05:12of Europe.
05:13And in relation to troops on the ground, would they be potentially deterrent troops, not
05:17just peacekeeping troops?
05:18Well, look, the question is, once again, if you have tomorrow a ceasefire, you need to
05:24be able to have a force to be able to preserve it, a peacekeeping force, if you will. So
05:32this is where Europeans will have to take their responsibility. We are ready to do so.
05:36We've already said so with other able and willing partners. You've heard the Prime Minister
05:41of the United Kingdom already talk about deployment of a contingent. Of course, not to fight war.
05:47We always need to underscore this. But to be able to keep the peace on the ground in
05:53the long run. And this is a discussion that's being held right now among allies.
05:57Okay. I want to ask you about that extraordinary offer or announcement by President Macron
06:02about France extending its nuclear deterrence throughout Europe. What does this mean exactly?
06:09Is that the European Union? Is it the whole of Europe? Is it Ukraine? Is it within NATO?
06:13Of course, the French nuclear deterrent will always stay sovereign in the sovereign decision
06:18of the head of state of the French Republic. So it's no question, of course, of sharing
06:23the use of the nuclear deterrent, the nuclear button, if you will. With that being said,
06:30French presidents ever since General de Gaulle, actually the founder of the French nuclear
06:34deterrent, have always said that French nuclear deterrent is here to protect the vital interest
06:42of the French nation. And these vital interests have a European dimension. Of course, when
06:47our neighbors and our allies in Europe are attacked, it has an impact on the French vital
06:52interest. So what President Macron has said is that he wants to open a conversation with
06:56partners who want it. And he said this actually for the last few years, this is not something
07:01new, about how the French nuclear deterrent can contribute to the security of European
07:08partners. It's been striking to see that the next chancellor of Germany, Frédéric Merz,
07:15is actually quite forthcoming in a recent statement saying that he wants to have this
07:19conversation. This is something very important to us.
07:23So it could potentially, though, include Ukraine, for example?
07:26I think let's see where that could go. But at the very least, having this conversation
07:31with Germany and other countries in Europe.
07:34And I want to talk to you about defense as well and investment, because obviously that
07:37is something that each country is really having to put money in towards and taking out of
07:41their exchequer. In France, in particular, you have a very good social system, a very
07:46strong social system that's coveted across the world. Where would that money be coming
07:51from for all this major investment from France?
07:54There's a few responses to your question. First, about what we can do at the European
07:58level. So the European Commission, just on Thursday, announced a series of measures to
08:05relax budgetary rules to make it easier for member states to be able to invest in defense.
08:13That's already a major step and that's something that we had been advocating alongside partners
08:16in Europe for a long time. Then a loan from the European Commission, 150 billion euros,
08:22to member states when they invest in the capabilities that I was mentioning earlier, where we are
08:27lagging. You have the possibility of creating euro bonds, borrowing money. Look, we did
08:33it during the COVID crisis, right? We've benefited for decades from what we call the
08:39peace dividends, which basically that we could invest in our domestic politics when the United
08:45States was taking care of our security. To be fair, in France, a little less so than
08:50elsewhere because we have our nuclear deterrent and because we have constantly invested in
08:54defense. But yes, we will have to make budgetary decisions. And this is the conversation we're
09:00having in France right now about how we can increase our defense budget while keeping
09:06investors, so not raising taxes, keeping our companies here, keeping investors. Does that
09:12mean working more? If you look at the amount of time worked in France compared to other
09:18European countries, we're slightly behind.
09:21Is France ready for that discussion? Because we know that domestically, from a political
09:24perspective, everybody's quite divided. You have the rise of far-right parties and so
09:30on, serious problems getting the budget passed recently.
09:34It will have to be a moment of responsibility for everyone. We see the world around us.
09:38And I think the French are very lucid, very conscious about the world that is changing.
09:43Just before I let you go, Minister, just two more questions. First of all, do you think
09:47that this decision by President Macron to extend nuclear guarantees to Europe will bring
09:52France under the threat of Russia? Because we know the Russians have said that this announcement
09:57threatens them. And second of all, one of the things that you've spoken about is the
10:01decades of Europeans buying U.S. weapons. And you said you have concerns before that
10:07these could become immobilized.
10:09First I would say, if you allow me to answer quickly your second question, Russia is already
10:14a threat to France and to Europe. We see cyberattacks. We see foreign interference. We see Russia
10:20going after our interest and influence elsewhere. We see the incredible pressure we've seen
10:26on democracies like Romania or Moldova. We see, of course, the aggression against Ukraine.
10:33Through Ukraine, we know that Russia is going after the European security architecture and
10:38that it's targeted France also repeatedly.
10:41To your question on the industry, it's a very important point because we support the notion
10:46of the European preference for funding for our European defense industry. Because the
10:52only way to have an autonomous European defense industry is to make sure that you have the
10:58control of the technology, so you have the technological know-how. Look at just the debates
11:03we had over the long-range missiles sent to Ukraine. If you have American components and
11:09Americans decide that they can't do deep strike to be able to defend themselves against Russian
11:13targets, they can control the use, even though the European countries that will want Ukrainians
11:19to be able to do so have agreed to it. So there is the question of control of use. There's
11:24the question of technology. And I would even say, if you want to make the case also that
11:31we need to increase our defense budget in the long run, politically, you also need to
11:36show that it trickles down in terms of reindustrialization, in terms of factories, in terms of job, not
11:42that it's funding defense factories in Kentucky or Pennsylvania. I think it's a fair point.
11:49Okay, Benjamin Haddad, Minister for European Affairs and Fronts, thank you very much for
11:52joining us in the Europe Conversation.
11:54Thank you very much.
