Bibliofile | Bhavna-Vij-Aurora in conversation with former Delhi Police Commissioner Neeraj Kumar
Outlook's Bhavna-Vij-Aurora in conversation with former Delhi Police Commissioner Neeraj Kumar on his book "Khaki Files". In his conversation, he reveals many facts related to different cases he handled and challenges he faced during his tenure as a Delhi Police Commissioner.
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00:00 Welcome to Outlook Bibliophile. Today we have with us Mr. Neeraj Kumar. He is the former
00:13 police commissioner. He is also been a joint director in the CBI. He is a police officer
00:18 with 37 years experience and I think probably the only police officer who has had a very
00:25 eventful career. He has had the toughest of cases in CBI and in Delhi Police and he belongs
00:32 to the AGM UT cadre, formerly the UT cadre. So he has been a DGP in Goa and probably the
00:38 only police officer who can go to Goa and cover the underbelly of Goa which everybody
00:42 thinks is just a beach holiday place. So today we are discussing his book which he has written
00:48 about his various cases Khaki Files. We are going to talk to him about it and he has covered
00:55 very interesting cases which he has covered during his career. Basically these are Delhi
01:00 Police cases. Yes, most of the ways. Yeah, so Khaki Files we will talk to him about it.
01:05 So welcome Mr. Kumar. Thank you. So sir you have covered lots of cases and during your
01:12 last stint you covered the Nirbhaya case and I am starting with Nirbhaya because that is
01:18 again in the news now and now the death sentence has again been announced. March 3rd is the
01:24 date and what are your thoughts about that case? Has that been the most challenging case
01:29 ever for you in terms of the political pressure you face, in terms of the public sentiment
01:36 and also in terms of the sheer brutality of the case? Yeah, it has been one of the most
01:42 challenging because the kind of urgency that was required to crack the case has never been
01:50 the same in any other case. I mean the entire prestige of the Delhi Police and police in
01:57 general and my own was at stake. If we had not cracked the case that quickly then all
02:07 hell would have broken loose on the police and on me. So we were working under tremendous
02:15 pressure and the way the investigation was conducted in a professional manner and the
02:21 way the field work was done, people went to far off places, got the accused and under
02:31 very adverse circumstances, you know that is remarkable and the story was… You have
02:37 given all the details in the book, in the chapter, there is a big chapter on that and
02:42 especially I saw that where the policeman had to cross the river and some of them were
02:48 not even tall enough and they had to carry their weapons over their heads. Yeah, that
02:53 was something and you also spoke about the political situation. There was of course a
03:00 great uproar from the public and justifiably so because it was a very heinous and brutal
03:08 case and it was a woman in the capital in South Delhi being raped in that brutal manner
03:17 which ultimately led to her death. So if the public was angry, I mean they can't be blamed
03:24 for it. But how the politics unfolded at that point of time, that was again something which
03:32 was unique, absolutely unique and the pressures that were put on me were something else.
03:40 And that was just before your retirement. So I am sure you wanted to retire with a swan
03:46 song and not… Yes, I wanted to sign off on a high note and here I was virtually down
03:52 in the dumps and I had to salvage my own position and also lead the force which was under tremendous
04:01 attack and come out of it. And by God's grace we did.
04:07 So in another case where I think you did not investigate but where you filed a charge with
04:12 Sanjeev Chawla case which you have not mentioned here and but now he remains to be extradited.
04:18 So what do you think of that? Do you think the investigation was done properly, that
04:22 everything the rape has happened or should he have been extradited earlier?
04:27 See, I have written about it in my first book, Dial D for Dial. This case could have been
04:36 charge sheeted several years back. It happened in the year 2000 and I was Commissioner of
04:46 Police in 2012-13 and in 2013 we cracked the spot fixing case in IPL. And it was after
04:55 we had cracked the case that somebody from the media informed me that no charge sheet
05:02 had been filed in the first case. I didn't believe that person. I made enquiries but
05:08 he was right. So it had already been 13 years. So we traced the file, it was lying somewhere
05:18 and then we virtually reconstructed everything, got hold of all the investigating officers
05:24 through whose hands the case file had gone and prepared the charge sheet and filed it.
05:33 We filed it on the 30th of July and 35th July I retired. But having served in the CBI, I
05:42 knew that at least one accused, main accused, that's Sanjeev Chawla, he is still alive,
05:52 still available unlike Hansi Kronje who had died. So the logical thing to do would have
05:59 been to send an exhibition request. Now I had already retired, I had left. It was not
06:09 quite easy to kind of follow up with the Delhi Police that an exhibition request should be
06:17 sent. But luckily the officers in charge in the crime branch, there were people who had
06:22 worked with me. So I sounded them and they said, "Go sir, we'll prepare the exhibition
06:27 request." I said, "If you need any help, I know people in the CBI who can help you.
06:35 But it must be done." So as you know the exhibition goes through a very circuitous route. It goes
06:42 through the Delhi government, left-hand governor, the court and then from the court it goes
06:49 to Ministry of Home Affairs and External Affairs. Then it goes to our High Commission in London.
06:54 Then it goes to the Home Office and then from the Home Office to the court, Westminster
07:00 Court. Anyhow, we had to push it at every stage. And the biggest hurdle came in the
07:08 Ministry of External Affairs. But fortunately we overcame it. And thank God, all our effort
07:18 - Because you had done a stint in CBI and police and maybe you had handled the Hansi
07:23 Krodhme case. And then again later towards the end you were also anti-corruption head
07:29 for the BCCI also. - Yes. So I had the necessary exposure to do it. But people would get the
07:37 feeling that it was something routine. That a case was there, it was char sheeted and
07:43 an exhibition request was sent in routine. - So we have done our bit now. - But it was
07:50 not in routine. One had to go the extra mile and pursue it. And I am happy that all those
07:59 efforts have shown results ultimately. - Sir, in this book you have taken lots of cases.
08:08 So many of them are staff cases like the lottery case and everything. And you also mentioned
08:13 that the monograph which you made at that time is still the thing which the police depends
08:19 upon. So that has been one of your satisfying investigations. What else? And also the one
08:25 which you mentioned about the Kachha Banyan gang. The gang which is the earth-right, women-right
08:31 gang. So even now have they been the most satisfying investigation in the sense because
08:37 I read you have gone to the sociological aspect also that why did they do this and all. So
08:44 I have seen that you go the extra mile to make that thing easier for the probably the
08:50 future police officers. So is that a thing that you do for all your cases or?
08:56 See, you don't do the sociological aspect of a case in routine, in every case. But in this case,
09:07 in the serial killings with the coitee and robbery, we had no clue. And we were at a complete loss
09:17 as to what to do. Then it struck me that, you know, a certain gang which belonged to a certain
09:26 erstwhile criminal tribe had indulged in crime in other districts and there a certain
09:37 implement of housebreaking had been used. And the tribe was a certain tribe, erstwhile criminal tribe.
09:44 So I said, just go and study them. And that is how I sent an officer who went and carried out a detailed study
09:52 and came back. And sure enough it is because of that study that the breakthrough came.
09:58 So, a police officer or an investigator should be prepared to adopt new ways and new strategies
10:10 to crack a case. And this is one of the few cases where sociological study resulted in a breakthrough.
10:21 I just say, another thing, there was this, the Lakshmi court which you have mentioned in this.
10:28 And you know, also among various agencies, like when the intelligence agency was speaking of the information,
10:38 about your information, do these often come in the way of your professional working, professional police working?
10:45 In the sense, you mentioned the rivalries between the departments. -I got the point. -Yeah.
10:54 It does work. And to some extent it is a human formula. But amongst agencies, it should be kept
11:07 as low as possible. I mean, inter-agency or personal rivalries should not come in the way of cases
11:19 which involve national interest. -Right. -But, well, there was some problem in this case as well.
11:26 But we managed to get over it. And thank God, the case was prevented. Because had the…
11:34 Generally we never come to know about the cases that have been prevented. -Yes. So, can you imagine
11:40 if the terror attack at India gate would have actually happened, what would have been the impact?
11:48 India and Pakistan would have certainly gone to war. They were already kind of eye ball to eye ball
11:55 of the frontiers and this would have certainly… And you can imagine what damage a war can do.
12:02 So, none of us realizes that a good piece of work done by the police can prevent so many things from happening.
12:14 And I think the police never gets enough credit for that. For things that have been prevented. -None whatsoever.
12:21 Achha, sir, you also investigated the Mumbai blasts and especially the one which you have mentioned here,
12:28 the train blasts. And one thing that I found interesting in that which I am going to ask you,
12:34 you mentioned meeting the Hyderabad police commissioner, Mr. H.G. Dora, who you describe as a true leader,
12:40 not scared of standing up to political pressure. The sort of cork thing no longer make.
12:45 So, what kind of corks are being made now? I mean, we all know what has happened in Delhi,
12:51 how the Jamia case was handled, how JNU case was handled and the police has received a lot of criticism for that.
12:59 So… -Yeah, one can't make a sweeping statement but nonetheless, what one sees with certain amount of anguish
13:09 all around, especially in state governments, that the police do not enforce the rule of law.
13:19 They enforce the rule of the ruling party. Which is very very unfortunate. And they can be forced to do
13:29 various things which they would not normally do. Which is very very unfortunate.
13:36 It's not something very new. It was happening in West Bengal during the CBI government. It has happened in other states as well.
13:44 It was happening even down south. But in Delhi, it has been a recent phenomena. And it is really worrying.
13:53 Because Delhi is one place where the police is more or less independent, you know.
14:00 Thanks to the system of, shall we say, no control from the local government, Delhi government,
14:09 we are monitored and supervised by the central government which has so many other more important things to do.
14:17 So, they don't… -Bother. -Yeah, they are not very bothered about micro-management of the police.
14:24 So, you are more or less left to yourself. But then are you doing what you should be doing?
14:32 Or are you for every little thing turning to, you know, your superiors for orders? That is the moot question.
14:40 And that is the unfortunate part of it. Because one gets the sense that the police are not dealing with matters on their merit.
14:50 But on account of certain instructions that have come from quarters, from where the instructions are not required.
15:00 And given my understanding and, you know, as a commissioner of police, I know that day to day working,
15:07 the home ministry or the home minister does not interfere. And… But if you start seeking orders from there,
15:16 then it becomes a totally different ball game. -Some food for thought for the current police officers.
15:23 Actually, talking about taking orders, you have this Shahbhudeen case also which you have mentioned.
15:29 And I think which you did not, which did not culminate to your satisfaction since you could not arrest him.
15:36 So, there was immense, there you saw the nexus between the political parties, the police and the local goons.
15:45 Will you just tell us something about that case because that's also a very interesting chapter in this.
15:49 See, in this particular case, the case, I was in the CBI, but this case was not with the CBI.
15:55 It was with the Delhi police special cell. But informally I was associated with the investigation.
16:03 And there I spot this man in an aircraft, in the same flight as I had taken from Patna to Delhi.
16:12 And he was a sitting MP at that time. -Sitting member of parliament. But nonetheless, I mean, he was an accused in the case.
16:18 And he was required to be interrogated and he had been absconding. So, I thought it was ideal situation in which
16:26 the Delhi police could come and pick him up from the airport. And from that point of view, I did everything I could
16:35 to inform the police and gave them the seat numbers of the member of parliament and his assistant and so on and so forth.
16:44 And this was in days before mobile phones or mobile phones? -Mobile phones had come but they were not there in every city or every place.
16:52 For instance, they were not there in Ranchi. Mobile telephony was not there in Ranchi.
16:57 So, but again, orders were sought because it was a member of parliament and various political, you know, issues were involved.
17:11 So, it seems, orders were sought and orders were not granted because of which the man could not be picked up at that point of time.
17:21 But mercifully now he is in jail. -Yes. -Paying a price for all the wrongs he has done.
17:29 So, is it still quite rampant this nexus between political parties, the so called strongmen, goons, whatever you may call them and the police?
17:42 I should think so because, you know, muscle power as much as money power is very important factor in the electoral politics of India.
17:53 So, these Bahubalis as they are called play a very important role in the politics of India.
18:01 Acharya sir, there is a very important chapter in this that is about your stint when you were in DG prisons, Tehar jail,
18:11 where you encountered a person, accused by Manjeet Singh and who was there because he had murdered somebody who was,
18:19 who had helped you, an advocate who had helped you when nobody else did, Baba Bucharan Singh.
18:26 And yet you helped him get parole when nobody else had done. So, what I wanted to ask you that, I mean, I think you got a sentence commuted.
18:35 Yes. -So, Tehar is a place to reform prisoners after sending some raided criminals and terrorists there yourself.
18:44 Is it easy to kind of, to get that kind of a compassion which you did because all your life you spent sending criminals to jail
18:53 and there when you encounter one of the accused and yet you have that compassion and empathy for him.
18:59 It is not easy. It's not easy. But when you become the head of prisons, you suddenly begin to see everything in a different perspective.
19:10 You are on the other side of the law, you know. Those same people you have arrested, you see them in flesh and blood every day.
19:18 And you see how, what they are doing, what has been their record, have they tried to reform themselves,
19:27 what special efforts they have made to acquire new skills to educate themselves and all.
19:33 So, here was a case where the man for 19 years had been in jail. He had not come to adverse notice even once.
19:44 He had educated himself. He had become a graduate. He was teaching other inmates.
19:53 And therefore, there was no reason, I mean, nobody would gain any more by keeping him inside
20:02 after lapse of 90 years of sentence. And the law provides for commutation.
20:08 That means the remaining part of his life sentence can be commuted and he can be allowed to go.
20:14 So, much as I was kind of upset and angry with him, but gradually I overcame that feeling.
20:27 I was surprised at myself when this transformation happened. But it happened and I thought it is my duty
20:35 to ensure that his side of the story, somebody pleaded before the sentence review board.
20:43 And as DG prisons, I did that. And fortunately, you know, for him, my recommendations were accepted.
20:52 And having kept track, what is he doing now?
20:55 Yes, he does keep in touch with me and he does occasionally call me up and tell me what all he is doing.
21:03 So, he has been out of trouble?
21:05 Yes, he has been out of trouble and no complaint has come to light against him.
21:10 Sir, you mentioned in the beginning about your stint in Goa. So, there is a very interesting chapter,
21:16 Goa and Thapsiti. And you had a very short stint there because, understandably, because you were,
21:22 I think, got on the wrong side of powerful people. So, I don't think anybody else has gone there
21:30 and actually tried to cover that underbelly. We all keep hearing about drugs being rampant and everything,
21:36 these parties and everything, rave parties. But you are the only one who actually went and tried to stop them.
21:43 What kind of resistance did you face in that? -As I have written in the book, the resistance was very strong
21:51 because, you know, the political leaders at that point of time were openly in support of these illegal activities.
22:01 And it was quite horrifying that how brazenly they would come forward, they will come to your office and say that,
22:09 you know, a member of the legislative assembly telling me that, well, I am going to have a rave party in my house.
22:17 And I want security. -And I will see what you can do. -Challenge. Basically, you set the challenge at you. -Yes.
22:24 I said, well, you try it. So, of course, I didn't want to send my men to his house. But I blocked the, you know,
22:33 passage to his house at a little distance. And all we did was started checking papers of people who were to come.
22:41 And when they, people realized that, you know, the police is there and they are checking travel documents, they just kind of disappeared.
22:50 So, and the leader was very upset that how come I have done this. In fact, I was ruining the reputation of Goa as a tourist place.
23:04 So, this is one, you know, interesting experience of my career. -Sir, after all this, all these years and everything
23:13 and after facing resistance, facing all kinds of pressures and everything, you still think it's better to take on the system
23:20 or be part of the same unscrupulous system like many people do? -I can speak for myself. I can't speak for everybody.
23:28 I think I will sleep better if I take them on. You know, even though the risks are very high,
23:38 you can be in trouble, you can be transferred, you can be, you know, all kinds of things can be done to you.
23:44 But I will be at peace with myself if I take them on. If they are asking me to do something
23:54 which is out and out illegal. -That's very nice. Thank you so much. And you will be seeing another book now, after this?
24:02 I am trying to write another book now. -Would you like to say what it is about?
24:08 I am trying to write about my stint in the BCCI as chief of the anti-corruption security unit
24:16 and how the corruption is to get and what are the stakes and so on and so forth. -That will be something.
24:24 Looking forward to it. Thank you. -Thank you so much.
24:27 [Music]