In an interview with Outlook Editor Chinki Sinha, Abhayanand, a 1977 batch Indian Police Service officer of Bihar cadre, known for changing the paradigms of policing through his innovations, talks about the ‘Jungle Raj’, what used to happen then and how did the police tackle with the Bahubalis.
Abhayanand is said to be the brain behind speedy trial and convictions of criminals in the state. As per reports, the District Judiciary, in 2010 alone, convicted 14,311 persons in speedy trials, out of which 37 persons were awarded capital punishment and 1,875, life imprisonment. As Abhayanand had envisioned, this instilled the fear of law in the lawbreakers.
In this interview, he talks about Jungle Raj, the emergence and legitimisation of Bahubalis, and the caste factor as well as the law and order situation.
Editor: Sudhanshu
#BiharPolitics #JungleRaj #BiharElections2025 #LawAndOrder #Abhayanand #BahubaliPolitics #NitishKumar #LaluYadav #RJD #LaluPrasadYadav
Abhayanand is said to be the brain behind speedy trial and convictions of criminals in the state. As per reports, the District Judiciary, in 2010 alone, convicted 14,311 persons in speedy trials, out of which 37 persons were awarded capital punishment and 1,875, life imprisonment. As Abhayanand had envisioned, this instilled the fear of law in the lawbreakers.
In this interview, he talks about Jungle Raj, the emergence and legitimisation of Bahubalis, and the caste factor as well as the law and order situation.
Editor: Sudhanshu
#BiharPolitics #JungleRaj #BiharElections2025 #LawAndOrder #Abhayanand #BahubaliPolitics #NitishKumar #LaluYadav #RJD #LaluPrasadYadav
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NewsTranscript
00:00Bahubali concept is basically humans replacing law.
00:07The only Bahubali that can survive in a civilized society is law.
00:13A man becomes law.
00:17He is a Bahubali, which is not good for any society.
00:27Hi, welcome to Outlook Talks.
00:30We are with Abhyanand and he has been the DGP of Bihar
00:36in the very volatile times, which is known in history as Jungle Raj.
00:42In fact, he was called upon by the Nitesh Kumar government in 2005 to end Jungle Raj.
00:49And I had met Abhyanandji way back in 2014,
00:55when I was very intrigued by the criminal politician situation in Bihar.
01:00And in fact, he had helped me a lot in getting to Baksar's Jail.
01:05Sir, you don't know if I remember it or not?
01:06And you had also explained to me about the dawn of Mukama, Anand Singh.
01:12He also wrote a book which is very fascinating.
01:18It's called Unbound, which actually deals with his years in Bihar as a police person
01:26and also his dream thing, which was to teach at Super 30.
01:30In fact, today morning, we had an interesting conversation about law and order situation in Bihar.
01:36And this old term, Jungle Raj, which comes back to haunt us.
01:41I mean, as a Bihari, we grew up during those times and a lot of things still don't make sense.
01:47So we are here to ask him as to what happens and what happened then and what is going to happen next.
01:57So welcome, Abhyanandji, and thank you for giving us your time.
02:00We wanted to ask you, when you were called by the Nitish Kumar government
02:07and you mentioned that Jungle Raj will be finished or not, that question, if you can begin with that.
02:15This was 2005 and when the present government took over after winning the elections.
02:26The chief minister, who is the present chief minister, even now, he summoned for me and asked me point blank, face to face,
02:40I was an ADG and I gave him a very crisp answer, yes.
02:52To which he replied,
02:56To pher hum se aap kya umeed karenge?
03:00As head of executive, I can give you money.
03:06As head of legislature, I can give you laws.
03:11So what would you expect from me?
03:16And my very brief answer was,
03:20Neither.
03:22Na paise ki jorat hai,
03:25Na laws ki jorat hai.
03:29Because paise is not needed and laws are aplenty.
03:34He was not very convinced because
03:36He said,
03:39Police ka rutba bahal kar dijiye.
03:43Ar sab kuch thik ho jana chahiye.
03:46To which my answer was,
03:49Your fundas, your fundas are incorrect.
03:54Police ka rutba ar vardi ki gundagarti mein baut antar nahi hota hai.
04:00Dono ekhi chahi chahi chahi chahi.
04:02Dono ekhi chahi chahi chahi.
04:02This perhaps did not convince him very much.
04:10So he said,
04:11Then what do you expect from me?
04:13I said,
04:15I'll give you a sentence.
04:19Just
04:19Listen to me.
04:22And
04:23If you accept it,
04:25Then leave the rest to me.
04:29He said,
04:29What is the sentence?
04:33I said,
04:34Jow bhi ho ga
04:34Kanun ke raastet se ho ga
04:38Kanun ke baar kuch bhi nahi ho ga
04:42Or
04:44Ye jow
04:47Tarika apnaayajayega kanun ke andar
04:50Woh
04:52Meray buddhi se chalega
04:55Rest,
04:58I don't need anything from you.
05:02He was
05:03He was
05:04Not convinced at all.
05:07So perhaps he
05:08Called up the advocate general.
05:13I knew the advocate general also.
05:17He
05:18Rang me up saying
05:20Aap ki cm se kuch baat hui hai kya?
05:24And I said,
05:26Yes, baat hui hai.
05:27Woh kya rahe hai ki na kanun kuch maangta hai
05:31Na paisa maangta hai
05:33Toh advocate general na kaya ki
05:37Jeb aap se kuch maang hi nahi rahe hai
05:39Toh unko karne deejye unka jo bhi plan hai.
05:43Since he is not asking for anything.
05:45And that is how it got started.
05:51I made out my plans.
05:54Nothing on record.
05:58I would talk to the SPs directly.
06:00And the SPs knew that he has the mandate of the chief minister.
06:10The things like speedy trial and
06:13Bail cancellations and
06:16Things like that.
06:20Economic offenses.
06:25That's how it got started.
06:26And
06:27It showed results.
06:29The basic concept is
06:33The criminals
06:34Show up with terror.
06:38The public
06:40Gets affected by the
06:42Terror of the crime.
06:45Now
06:45I asked myself
06:47If the criminals commit terror
06:50Then is it an answer that the state commits counter terror?
06:55And my answer was no.
07:00Although
07:00State committing counter terror
07:04Against criminals
07:07Is something which
07:10Is rampant in almost every developing country.
07:17Bihar was the first experiment where
07:19State said no.
07:22Counter terror.
07:23No to counter terror.
07:25And yet
07:27The results came.
07:29No sir
07:29I wanted to also ask you
07:30That you spent 37 years
07:32In the service.
07:33And
07:34You were there
07:35If I am not wrong
07:36From 1980
07:37When you joined Raachi.
07:39Right?
07:39That's where you began
07:41Your police career.
07:43And you were a student of physics also.
07:46And you teach
07:47Obviously
07:48At Super 30
07:49But
07:50But
07:50You had explained to me
07:57That
07:58Jungle Raac
07:59What was the time that was
08:00What was the time that was
08:02I remember that
08:04In my time
08:04There was this
08:05Huge case
08:06That was my school senior
08:07Shilpi Jain
08:08Murder case
08:09And rape case
08:10Of course
08:11That was never solved
08:12You know
08:12Even though
08:13It was
08:14Nitish Kumar's
08:15Time
08:16I think
08:18So
08:19What was the role of the caste
08:25That played into this
08:27Kind of a law and order situation
08:29I know that you were right there
08:30When all kinds of things were happening
08:32Baghalpur riots
08:33Were
08:33Miyapur massacre
08:35There was a lot of things in Bihar
08:36In that time
08:37So
08:37What was the failure of the law and order
08:39Before you
08:40Jungle Raac
08:42Ka meaning
08:44Agar
08:44Aap
08:45Humse
08:45Poochayaga
08:46It only means
08:48No rule of law
08:52Every civilized society
08:55Runs
08:58On laws
08:59Passed by the legislature
09:02If a law is not good
09:06Then
09:08There are courts to
09:11Pass judgments over him
09:15Suppose the law is unconstitutional
09:18Then the court will
09:21Tackle it by deciding whether
09:26The law is
09:28Ultra virus of the constitution or not
09:32Or some basic principle of
09:36Justice and jurisprudence
09:39Is not
09:41Is not consistent with
09:45The law
09:46That is being challenged
09:48So the answer to your question is
09:52What is jungle law
09:54Is
09:55A rule
09:56Or
09:58Things which are being done by the state
10:01Which are not consistent with the laws of the land
10:06And police is definitely not an agency
10:10To ensure that
10:13Crime is
10:16Tackled
10:17In a way that is
10:21Inconsistent with the
10:23Present law of the land
10:26Police cannot do whatever it wants to
10:30And nor can the state
10:32Ask the police to do anything
10:37Which is against the law of the land
10:41So the question that came to my mind was
10:45Can I do the policing according to the law
10:50And yet achieve results
10:51And which
10:53As everyone now accepts it
10:56The first phase of the present government
11:00In 2005 to 2014
11:04The policing
11:10Did show up
11:12And effectively
11:14We could
11:16Tell the world that
11:18The police need not be
11:21Inconsistent with the law
11:23To tackle crime
11:25It's ironical also
11:27That
11:27In 2005
11:28When Jitish Kumar Ji
11:29The election was
11:30After the election
11:31And now
11:34In 2025
11:35The CM was almost
11:37In the middle of the year
11:38The CM was
11:40But
11:40Now
11:41It's interesting
11:42It's interesting that
11:43The jungle law is
11:43It's going to be
11:45Right
11:45If the jungle law is
11:46If anyone remembers
11:47So
11:48What was the question of the
11:49What was the question of the
11:50What was the question of the
11:51Kidnapping
11:53People remember
11:54But
11:55Like what
11:56I know
11:58High court
11:58Judge
11:59Jungle Raj
12:00In Bihar
12:00That's why
12:02The term
12:03It was so popular
12:03That now
12:04It's become
12:04Like two elections
12:06Were fought
12:06On the basis
12:07Of this term
12:07Jungle Raj
12:08I just wanted to know
12:10As a police
12:11You were there
12:11As a police officer
12:12You witnessed a lot of things
12:14Why was
12:16There such a failure
12:17Of law and order
12:18What was happening
12:19I'll give you an example
12:21And that will
12:22Set everything clear
12:24As a citizen
12:27If somebody's house
12:29Is looted
12:30Law says
12:31He will go to the police station
12:33And lodge an FIR
12:35Then the police
12:37Will take up the case
12:39And go to the place
12:40Of occurrence
12:40And investigate
12:42If the case is true
12:44And the criminals
12:45Are apprehended
12:46There will be a charge sheet
12:48If the case is false
12:50Then another course of action
12:53There were instances
12:58After instances
12:59Where crimes took place
13:04But the simple principle of law
13:06That it should be registered
13:08And investigated
13:09That did not take place
13:11In fact
13:13In fact
13:13When
13:15Amongst us
13:17Policemen of
13:18IPS officers
13:20Of that seniority
13:22We would
13:24We would
13:24Mazaak
13:26In fact
13:27We would
13:28Mazaak
13:29In fact
13:30We would
13:30Mazaak
13:31Frame up
13:31And put it in the drawing room
13:33In the drawing room
13:33In the drawing room
13:34If getting an FIR
13:40Registered
13:41Used to be
13:41Such a difficult task
13:44That is jungle law
13:45Why was it so difficult
13:46Not the crime itself
13:48The crime
13:48Not that
13:51So they said
13:52Crime toh kahin bhi ho sakta
13:54Yes it is true
13:55But then
13:56Where the crime
13:57Hoga
13:58The FIR
14:00Has to be registered
14:01And if it is not registered
14:03Then it is jungle law
14:04So why is it such a situation
14:06I mean
14:07Lalu ji
14:08To
14:08Blehut
14:09Bahad
14:09Me
14:09I
14:09Us
14:09Us
14:10Ke
14:10Pehle
14:10Se
14:10He
14:10When I was in Bihar
14:14Recently
14:14So I met
14:16The same
14:16Dawn of
14:17Mokama
14:17So we
14:18We
14:18So we
14:18So we
14:18We
14:18So we
14:19So we
14:19So we
14:19We
14:20So we
14:20So we
14:20So we
14:21So we
14:22So we
14:23So we
14:24Why are they
14:27Getting
14:28These
14:28These tickets
14:29You know
14:30Convictions
14:30Who
14:30Nuhi
14:30Inki
14:31In
14:31Co
14:31Jail
14:32Phe
14:32Bheja
14:32Gya
14:32To
14:32Ye
14:32Bina
14:33Convict
14:34Whey
14:34Bohut
14:34Sare
14:35To
14:35Bahar
14:35He
14:35A
14:35Gae
14:35Agar
14:36Woh
14:36Jail
14:37Me
14:37Hote
14:37Thay
14:37To
14:38Unki
14:38BV
14:38election
14:38Ler
14:39Ne
14:39Lag
14:39Gahin
14:39To
14:40Ye
14:40Situation
14:40Why
14:41Firstly
14:43Again
14:43Intersection
14:43Of
14:44Caste
14:44Is
14:44Me
14:44Kyunki
14:45Bohut
14:47Sare
14:47Bhoomihar
14:48Thay
14:48You
14:48Know
14:48You
14:48Talked
14:49About
14:49It
14:49Also
14:49Ki
14:50Kyo
14:50Ye
14:52Upper
14:53Caste
14:53Jho
14:54Thay
14:54Bahubali
14:55Rahe
14:55Or
14:56Kya
14:56Situation
14:56Hui
14:57Ki
14:57Bahubali
14:57Iska
14:58Itna
14:58Zah
14:58Legitimization
14:59Ho
14:59Gaya
15:00Ki
15:00They
15:00Are
15:01Also
15:01Becoming
15:01Political
15:02People
15:02And
15:03They
15:03Were
15:03Political
15:03People
15:04Earlier
15:04Also
15:04So
15:06Iske
15:07Baare
15:07May
15:07Thoda
15:07Sa
15:08If
15:08You
15:08Can
15:08Talk
15:09About
15:09Ki
15:09Ye
15:10Polis
15:10How
15:12Did
15:12You
15:12Look
15:12At
15:13This
15:13It
15:14Was
15:14An
15:14Aberration
15:15And
15:17There
15:19Are
15:19So
15:20Many
15:20Stories
15:21I
15:21Won't
15:22Be
15:23Able
15:23To
15:23Certify
15:24Those
15:25Stories
15:25Personally
15:27But
15:28There
15:28Were
15:28Too
15:29Many
15:29Of
15:30Them
15:30In
15:30Number
15:30For
15:33The
15:34Incidents
15:36To
15:36Be
15:36Negated
15:38The
15:40Incidents
15:40Must
15:41Have
15:41Been
15:42There
15:42To
15:43Have
15:43Gained
15:43Such
15:44Currency
15:44So
15:46The
15:47Point
15:47Is
15:47If
15:50Somebody
15:50Is
15:51Made
15:51Into
15:52A
15:52Law
15:53Unto
15:53Himself
15:54Including
15:55The
15:56Top
15:56Political
15:57Executive
15:58Then
16:01It's
16:02Like
16:02The
16:03Robin
16:03Hood
16:03Culture
16:04Robin
16:06Hood
16:07Does
16:08Become
16:09A
16:09Very
16:09Important
16:09Person
16:10He
16:11Feels
16:12As
16:12He
16:12Is
16:12A
16:12Replacement
16:13For
16:13The
16:13Law
16:14Of
16:14The
16:14Land
16:14Law
16:16Of
16:16The
16:16Land
16:16Is
16:17An
16:17Abstract
16:17It's
16:18Like
16:18Somebody
16:21Is
16:23Told
16:23You
16:23Are
16:23So
16:25You
16:27Feel
16:28So
16:28Proud
16:29You
16:29Are
16:29Elevated
16:30And
16:32Bhagwan
16:33Admi
16:35Agar
16:35Ho
16:35Jai
16:36To
16:36You
16:36Can
16:36Imagine
16:37Kya
16:37Hota
16:37Yeah
16:38But
16:40How
16:40Was
16:41This
16:41Gap
16:41Created
16:42For
16:42Such
16:42People
16:42To
16:42Take
16:43So
16:44Much
16:44Authority
16:46And
16:46Power
16:46Like
16:47Now
16:47Like
16:47When
16:48I
16:48Went
16:48To
16:48Mokama
16:48I'm
16:49Like
16:50You
16:50Know
16:50There's
16:51So
16:52Much
16:52Support
16:52For
16:52This
16:52Person
16:54Or
16:54The
16:54Other
16:54Person
16:54Both
16:55Have
16:55Bahubali
16:56Backgrounds
16:56I
16:56Mean
16:56Even
16:57Now
16:57In
16:57Bihar
16:57Where
16:58We
16:58Are
16:58Talking
16:58About
16:58Like
16:592025
17:00Jungle
17:00Raj
17:00Khatam
17:01Khar
17:01Diya
17:01Gaya
17:01Tha
17:02To
17:02Aisa
17:02To
17:02Nahi
17:03Hai
17:03Ki
17:03Jungle
17:03Raj
17:04Khatam
17:04Hi
17:04Ho
17:05Gaya
17:05I
17:06Just
17:06Wanted
17:06To
17:06Know
17:07From
17:07You
17:07Khi
17:07Khatam
17:07Hua
17:08Ya
17:08Nain
17:08Hua
17:08Because
17:09Crime
17:09Has
17:11Also
17:11Increased
17:12In
17:12Bihar
17:12Again
17:12I
17:14Mean
17:14Of
17:14Course
17:14Yes
17:14It
17:14Has
17:15Become
17:15Safer
17:15But
17:16I
17:17Mean
17:17I
17:17Don't
17:18Know
17:18There
17:18Was
17:18Recently
17:19Witch
17:20Hunting
17:20Again
17:215
17:22Loge
17:23Ke
17:23Family
17:23Me
17:23Hathya
17:23Kar
17:24Dhi
17:24Gai
17:24Then
17:24There
17:24Was
17:24This
17:25Paras
17:25Hospital
17:25Case
17:26Baut
17:26Kuch
17:26Hua
17:26Bihar
17:27Recently
17:27So
17:28If
17:29Ticket
17:30Distribution
17:31There
17:31Are
17:3222
17:33Bahubaliz
17:339
17:34RJD
17:35Ticket
17:35Dhi
17:35What
17:37Is
17:38This
17:38Like
17:38Why
17:38Do
17:38We
17:38Have
17:38To
17:39Relay
17:39So
17:39Much
17:39On
17:39Bahubaliz
17:41You
17:41Know
17:41I
17:42Just
17:42I
17:42Just
17:43Want
17:43I
17:43Am
17:43Very
17:43Intrigued
17:44Personally
17:44Ki
17:44It
17:46Na
17:46Kuch
17:46Changes
17:47Hua
17:47Internet
17:47A
17:47Gaya
17:47Social
17:48Media
17:48A
17:48Gaya
17:48But
17:50Why
17:51Bihar
17:51Is
17:51Still
17:52Like
17:53There
17:53Bahubali
17:55Concept
17:56Is
17:57Basically
17:57Humans
17:58Replacing
17:59Law
18:00The
18:01Only
18:02Bahubali
18:02That
18:03Can
18:04Survive
18:05In
18:05A
18:06Civilized
18:06Society
18:07Is
18:07Law
18:07As
18:10I
18:10In
18:11The
18:11Answer
18:11To
18:11Your
18:12Earlier
18:12Question
18:12I
18:13Said
18:13A
18:15Man
18:15Becomes
18:16Law
18:16He
18:18Is
18:18A
18:18Bahubali
18:19Which
18:20Is
18:21Not
18:21Good
18:21For
18:22Any
18:22Society
18:23But
18:23How
18:23How
18:24Does
18:24He
18:24Become
18:24This
18:24Bahubali
18:25Is
18:25The
18:25State
18:25Capacity
18:26That
18:26Is
18:26Failing
18:27What
18:27Is
18:27Happening
18:28That
18:28They
18:28Are
18:28Getting
18:28So
18:29Much
18:29Legitimacy
18:30Also
18:31And
18:31People
18:31Are
18:32Just
18:32Like
18:32Worshipping
18:32Them
18:33I
18:34Understand
18:34That
18:34They
18:34As
18:35I
18:35Told
18:35You
18:35In
18:35The
18:36Morning
18:36Also
18:36That
18:41Is
18:41Their
18:41Thing
18:41But
18:43He
18:43Is
18:43Our
18:44Protector
18:44Now
18:45Why
18:45Do
18:45Need
18:45An
18:45An
18:45Thing
18:46To
18:46Protect
18:46You
18:46The
18:46Law
18:46And
18:47Order
18:47Should
18:47Be
18:47There
18:47I
18:47Mean
18:48They
18:49Talk
18:49Everybody
18:49Is
18:50Talking
18:50About
18:50Development
18:50In
18:51Bihar
18:51Everybody
18:51Is
18:51Talking
18:52About
18:52All
18:52These
18:52Visible
18:53Development
18:54But
18:55I
18:56Find
18:57It
18:57Very
18:57Strange
18:58That
18:59That
18:59That
18:59That
19:00That
19:00Is
19:01That
19:01Is
19:02That
19:02Is
19:03Why
19:03That
19:04Is
19:04That
19:05State
19:05Capacity
19:06Where
19:06Failed
19:06And
19:07Why
19:07Not
19:07That
19:07Is
19:08That
19:09Like when you said that you had implemented your arms act, you had made a fast track course at that time.
19:15Then what happened? Where did it slip?
19:19Your question is very relevant as to why do Robin Hoods keep coming up?
19:28And the same ones?
19:31Same one or his family?
19:33Yes, family.
19:34Shabuddin's son also gave a ticket which has become a huge issue.
19:37Yes.
19:38So that's a very good question and it needs an answer.
19:47Not that rule of law at least on paper doesn't exist.
19:52It does.
19:54But it's not effective.
19:58As a police officer working in the districts, maybe range and a zonal IG or ADG, I tried to collect some data to come to a conclusion.
20:14And the answers that I got were overwhelmingly ridiculous.
20:21So you can say that a criminal case has an origin 30 years ago in a particular police station at a particular moment.
20:42So there is a process which got started.
20:47Just keep tracking it.
20:50Because as time goes on, the process must take a legal course and come to an end.
21:01The process can have a beginning and no end.
21:06But our criminal justice system or for that matters, even civil justice system is such that the course, the thing will start a particular moment.
21:22The F.I.R. is lost and a criminal process or a civil process starts with a complaint.
21:32You just keep tracking it and you will find that it escalates at every moment.
21:39It will escalate into revisions, appeals, memorials.
21:46I do not know what words come up in the judicial dictionary.
21:53We were taught only police F.I.R., police investigation, police charge sheet or final report.
22:01But when I started learning more, I found that there were diversions.
22:10If there are eight accused, then each one will follow his own matter and each one will create his own mesh.
22:21So when I started learning about it as ASP, I found that the judicial process starts but never ends.
22:34And I am putting it very succinctly.
22:37Judicial processes do start in a million matters, but they will never end.
22:47You can keep tracking it.
22:49You will find some part of the process still lingering somewhere.
22:54So what type of judicial system do we have where things start but never end?
23:01And if this is true, then the people will want to know,
23:08what happened in my case.
23:11So my conclusion was,
23:15people, the case ends only when the parties get tired.
23:21Yeah, and give up eventually.
23:23But why do you not have conviction?
23:24Why do you not have conviction in both cases?
23:25Why do you not have conviction in both cases?
23:26Why do you not have conviction in both cases?
23:30Yes, never end.
23:32Never.
23:33I remember you were with one of these SPs who was also shot dead by one Bahubali,
23:40I am forgetting the name,
23:42Krishna Maya,
23:43Krishna Maya,
23:44what happened in all cases?
23:45What happened in all cases?
23:46No conviction or not?
23:47I mean judges have...
23:48Exactly.
23:49If you just keep tracking the cases,
23:52you will find that it leads nowhere.
23:55Yeah, why?
23:5640 years ago.
23:58No, but what happened then, sir?
24:00Krishna Maya,
24:02if I am remembering correctly.
24:04Krishna Maya was a district magistrate with me.
24:08Yeah.
24:09In Bethia,
24:10and unfortunately,
24:11he got shot dead.
24:13By one Bahubali's gang, no?
24:16Yeah.
24:17Allegedly.
24:18It just points to the same thing.
24:23The matter will keep dragging.
24:26There is no finality in time.
24:29There is no finality in space.
24:31No, as I said,
24:32in the introduction of your book,
24:34you start with these five questions.
24:37What is the necessity of the police?
24:39I'm only talking in context of Bihar.
24:41Who will police the police?
24:43Why are crimes committed at all?
24:45Why is there so much mistrust
24:47between the people and the police?
24:49Can the human dynamics which we see around us
24:51every moment be explained by some unifying theory?
24:54Sir, did you figure out which unifying theory?
24:57Because it seems like there is still a lot of mistrust
25:00between the police and the people,
25:01in Bihar at least.
25:03You said also you were seeking answers.
25:05Did you find any answers?
25:07Ah, yes.
25:08I think there are certain answers
25:12which I tried as an experiment.
25:17And I have given those answers in my book.
25:20Yeah.
25:21Yeah.
25:22I mean,
25:23you can talk about the police.
25:25Hmm.
25:26Now the answer to this is when the constitution was made,
25:37our constitution makers put the two services,
25:42IAS and the IPS as referred to by the,
25:48in the constitution itself.
25:51So the IPS was not only meant to investigate into cases,
26:00except you know, the very serious one.
26:03But the IPS was created to keep a check on the lower functionaries
26:13of the police, which there are certain IPS officers who get so thick
26:23with the subordinates that they become a part of it.
26:29That is one extreme.
26:31The other extreme is they will alienate themselves from the subordinates
26:42to an extent that the subordinates will not be able to deliver
26:46under their leadership.
26:48So to police the police, you need to have a very good senior level,
26:57senior echelons of the police, which is the Indian police service.
27:03And it was the job of the Indian police service to ensure that policing is done
27:12in a very proper manner where the delivery is made and they are not alienated
27:20to an extent that they become aliens to the, aliens to the system.
27:27You know, this Bihar, it's a very intriguing place, very complex also.
27:32So elections.
27:33Now, again, this question, two, three things, you know,
27:37you know, it's criminal politicians.
27:39They are not alienating.
27:41The other thing, sir, what is the caste angle?
27:44Like, somehow these elections and you have had a fair experience of elections.
27:49I mean, you also write in your book about this.
27:52Again, the list actually, voters list.
27:54You saw discrepancy between the voters list and the census data.
27:59And how do you get a free and fair elections in Bihar?
28:04In your experience, what happens, sir?
28:14What is this caste situation in Bihar?
28:17And how does that relate to law and order situation?
28:21Because all of this is interrelated in many ways.
28:24Caste is an undeniable truth in Bihar.
28:29No matter how much I wish to do away with it,
28:35or imagine that it is not there.
28:38Yeah.
28:39I'll fail.
28:43I've learned it the bitter way.
28:46How?
28:47I started with that same concept.
28:49Now, I'm not taking caste into cognizance.
28:54It does not work.
28:56So, one has to be very clear in his mind that whatever decision he takes
29:02will be painted in the light of caste.
29:08I stumbled on it.
29:12I made mistakes.
29:15But then I learnt it finally.
29:18Yet, there are ways of tackling it without getting enmeshed into the caste network.
29:29So, sir, how does it work?
29:30Does the caste thing, the whole arithmetic of caste feed into the lawlessness in Bihar?
29:36How does it work?
29:37Like the whole to and fro situation?
29:38Because that's very interesting.
29:39If I'm looking at, let's say, even criminal politicians, most of them are upper caste, you know?
29:46I mean, except I think Ashok Mehta and a few others.
29:49Now, what we discussed also was this whole concept of yadav terror, which is what people are talking about,
29:55and which is also being talked about in the sense that Jangal Raj Baisa will go back.
29:59Why is this happening?
30:00What gives them the legitimacy?
30:02Is it the upper caste entitlement?
30:04Which, I think, Lalu ji ke pehle se, I think, yeh shuru tha ki Janayu movement hua.
30:11Was work around that time, the women movement was happening.
30:14And then after that, Karpuri Thakur ne wo reservation kiya OBCs ka 25% to empower the OBC caste and the EBCs.
30:23But then, how do we interpret it in terms of Jangal Raj, this caste situation?
30:28That's the question I'm very intrigued with.
30:31I mean, I can see ki log jat ke basis peh vote to karte hai.
30:34But law and order, Jangal Raj or caste kaise related is that I thought maybe if you can...
30:39Because you have had extensive experience.
30:41I mean, in fact, you were...
30:43A lot of people said that you were very fearless ki aap kahi bhi chale jate teh rat ko.
30:47In fact, you mentioned in your book about that night when you go to this dairy onson ap ka sasaram na posting tha.
30:55When you told your wife ki aap ruko mein round laga ke aata hon.
31:00And then you realize ki this is not an easy job.
31:03So, what did you figure out in terms of the nexus?
31:09My perception of caste and the impact it has on the daily functioning of the districts is that it's not exactly a monolith on caste.
31:29A man will...
31:31A politician belongs to the ex caste.
31:34The officer belongs to ex caste.
31:37And the criminals also belong to ex caste.
31:41Then...
31:43This is how the decision will be taken.
31:46I don't think it works as simplistic...
31:50Simplistically as it sounds.
31:54Is finally about...
31:59Who gains what through adopting the caste.
32:03If all three of them...
32:05The criminals belonging to ex.
32:08Politicians belonging to ex.
32:10And officers belonging to ex.
32:13They all gain...
32:17By working simplistically on the caste line.
32:22Then it will work that way.
32:25But it...
32:26If it turns out that...
32:28By...
32:30Helping...
32:31Criminals of a particular caste.
32:33The politician...
32:36Loses support of others.
32:39Then he may not...
32:42Go simplistically...
32:44With the criminals of belonging to his caste.
32:48So...
32:49He'll weigh it...
32:50In terms of votes.
32:52So...
32:53Ultimately...
32:54It's...
32:56The logic is...
32:58How much do you gain by working...
33:02Straight away on caste line?
33:04In your experience...
33:05Like...
33:06You must have...
33:07Had your encounters with a lot of these criminal politicians...
33:09At that point in time.
33:10So...
33:11What was...
33:12What did you think?
33:13How did it go?
33:14What was happening?
33:15In terms of your own understanding...
33:17In the police services...
33:20What was going on actually?
33:22And why is it now?
33:23Why is it not finished?
33:25If the judicial system...
33:29That we have...
33:31And those systems are...
33:33Very good...
33:35But they are too good...
33:37They are so good...
33:39That they take ages to deliver...
33:42If that can be cut short...
33:46And...
33:47And...
33:48The justice...
33:49Can be delivered...
33:51Very...
33:52Sharply...
33:54Within...
33:55No time...
33:57Justice delayed...
33:58Should not be there...
34:00Then I think...
34:01Caste...
34:03That can be a good solution...
34:04To the caste problem.
34:06You will meet many criminal politicians...
34:08You will meet many times...
34:09You will meet many cases...
34:10Many cases will be met...
34:11Some cases will be met...
34:12What was your learning in that?
34:15If you have...
34:16If you have a few interesting stories...
34:19If you can tell us...
34:21If you have a good idea...
34:22Where you have posted...
34:23Or you have met someone...
34:24Who were those people?
34:25What did they do?
34:26You had to be scared of...
34:27The conclusion that I draw is politicians have more information
34:35about things going on in their constituency
34:38than the SP or the SHO can ever have
34:43because he has contacts with the local people.
34:48The story was there was a deputy
34:51which was committed in a village.
34:54I rushed to the place of occurrence,
35:00supervised the case.
35:01There was one person who was named in the FIR
35:04and came back, passed an order saying,
35:10this man needs to be arrested, go ahead with the process.
35:15I had personally supervised it.
35:18Then came the MLA of that place
35:21and said, sir, aapka decision galat hai.
35:26So I said, hum ne case supervised kya
35:28aur aap karte hai ki sithi galat hai, this decision.
35:33So then he said, ek offer hum aapko karte hai.
35:37You send anyone with me whom I do not know
35:41as my relative and I'll go and talk to the villagers
35:46who have attested before you
35:49when you said, go ahead and arrest that man.
35:54An IAS trainee was sitting in my room.
35:58I told him ki aap tiyaar ho jaiye aur in ke saath chalye jaiye
36:03kurta pajama paheni hai.
36:06Yeah.
36:06And act as his relative.
36:11Hmm.
36:13The officer, he later retired as a chief secretary of
36:17Jharkhand.
36:19Hmm.
36:19So he went there with him
36:23and came back and narrated the whole thing.
36:25He said,
36:26jitnye loog aapko gabaahi diya thai,
36:29wo log kahe ki
36:30yeh joh aadmi hai,
36:32heh badmaash hai ek number ka.
36:34Hum log pahchane to nahi teh,
36:36legin pura gaon decide kiya
36:37ki isko hum log
36:40case mein pahsayenge.
36:42Achha.
36:43And when I heard this,
36:48I was like,
36:50what have I done?
36:51He may be a badmaash,
36:52but he didn't commit that crime.
36:55Yeah.
36:56And believe me,
36:58it took me about two months to
37:00undo whatever I had done.
37:03And I did undo it.
37:06And nobody challenged it.
37:08Hmm.
37:09Because they knew that
37:10when I wrote the
37:13order for arrest,
37:15it was
37:15honest
37:19recording of things.
37:21Then when
37:22the MLA
37:23convinced me
37:25through his own process,
37:27that was not the legal process.
37:30But then
37:31I
37:31employed my
37:34special branch team,
37:35my CID team,
37:37and they finally reported
37:39ke aapka decision
37:41galat.
37:42So I accepted it.
37:44No, sir,
37:45jahaan pepi jese aap
37:47bhoot saare cases
37:49aise hoa
37:49to jese
37:50shirpi jain
37:51mudder case hua tha,
37:52mudder and rape case,
37:53waz tak kiyo nahi solve hua?
37:54CBI involved hui
37:55sab hua kuch
37:56pata
37:57kya hua?
37:58Why cases have
37:59become like this?
38:01Choda
38:02CBI se bhi
38:04pooch lije
38:04because once
38:05a case
38:06goes to the
38:07CBI,
38:08then nobody
38:09bothers.
38:10Yeah.
38:13Aap kabhi
38:14CBI se
38:15poochta hai
38:16even
38:17PIL
38:17even
38:18PIL karke
38:21CBI se
38:22pooch lije
38:23as I have
38:24worked in
38:25the CBI
38:26four years.
38:28Yeah.
38:30And
38:30they keep
38:31following
38:32the old
38:33cases.
38:36Woh
38:36six months
38:38old ho gaya
38:39uska kuch
38:41technical
38:41naam bhi
38:42rakta hai
38:42te logu.
38:44Yehaan
38:45to
38:45ek
38:48sal bhi
38:49purana
38:49ho gaya
38:49to
38:50you can
38:51ask
38:52ki
38:52iska kya
38:53hua
38:53us case
38:53me
38:54kuch
38:54hua
38:54nahi.
38:55So
38:56CBI
38:56go
38:56agar
38:56chala
38:57gaya
38:57then
38:57you
38:57can
38:58keep
38:58quiet.
38:59CBI
39:00go
39:00chala
39:00gaya
39:00then
39:01nothing
39:02can
39:02be
39:02done.
39:04You
39:04know
39:04your
39:04encounters
39:05with
39:05encounter
39:06man
39:06he
39:06mithilab
39:06jo
39:06agar
39:07aapki
39:07bhet
39:07hui
39:08ho
39:08matab
39:08yeh
39:09bahu
39:09bhali
39:09logo
39:10se
39:10jo
39:10bihar
39:11me
39:11te
39:11aapke
39:11I'm
39:12sure
39:12your
39:12tenure
39:12or
39:12you
39:13had
39:13met
39:13many
39:13what
39:15did
39:15you
39:15think
39:16what
39:16what
39:17was
39:17going
39:18on
39:18like
39:18kone
39:19logo
39:19the
39:19kya
39:19tha
39:19kyun
39:20itne
39:20you
39:21said
39:21robin
39:21hood
39:21figures
39:22the
39:22to
39:24yeh
39:25bad
39:25agar
39:25ek
39:25do
39:25vaqya
39:26ho
39:26aapke
39:26pas
39:27jo
39:27you
39:27know
39:28your
39:28meeting
39:28what
39:29what
39:29you
39:29saw
39:30it
39:31would
39:31be
39:31very
39:31interesting
39:32to
39:32get
39:33that
39:33the
39:34type
39:35of
39:35approach
39:37that
39:37I had
39:38against
39:38any
39:39criminal
39:39whether
39:40bahubali
39:41or
39:42non
39:42bahubali
39:43was
39:44I
39:46took
39:47them
39:47as
39:48x
39:49y
39:49z
39:49never
39:52with
39:52a
39:52name
39:53he
39:55did
39:56have
39:56a
39:57name
39:57but
39:58I
39:58wouldn't
39:58pursue
39:59the
39:59matter
40:00with
40:00a
40:00name
40:01I
40:03would
40:03pursue
40:04it
40:04with
40:04an
40:06arop
40:07and
40:08evidence
40:09this
40:10was the
40:10training
40:11of
40:11mind
40:12which
40:12I
40:12got
40:14maybe
40:16from
40:16my
40:16father
40:17who
40:19was
40:19himself
40:19the
40:21yeah
40:21your
40:21father
40:21was
40:22in
40:22service
40:22so
40:25he
40:26used
40:26to
40:26tell
40:27me
40:27you
40:28are
40:28there
40:29to
40:29follow
40:31the
40:31crime
40:31and
40:32not
40:32the
40:32criminal
40:33get
40:36evidence
40:36if
40:37you
40:37have
40:38evidence
40:38then
40:39pursue
40:39it
40:40even
40:42I
40:44got
40:44my
40:44information
40:45that
40:47the
40:47criminals
40:48no
40:49matter
40:49how
40:50volatile
40:52they
40:52are
40:53it
40:57really
40:57didn't
40:58matter
40:58to
40:58me
40:59I
41:01would
41:01just
41:01follow
41:02it
41:02like
41:02a
41:03case
41:03with
41:04evidence
41:05I
41:23have
41:24gone
41:24into
41:24the
41:25naxal
41:25affected
41:26areas
41:26with
41:29bodyguard
41:30and
41:31a
41:33driver
41:33only
41:34two
41:34arms
41:35I
41:37developed
41:38a
41:39simple
41:39process
41:40don't
41:42tell
41:43anyone
41:43where
41:44you're
41:44going
41:44like
41:46I
41:47wouldn't
41:47even
41:47take
41:48a
41:49pilot
41:49or
41:49escort
41:50or
41:50a
41:51siren
41:51because
41:52the
41:52moment
41:53you
41:53have
41:53a
41:53pilot
41:54and
41:54escort
41:55you
41:55have
41:56been
41:56bracketed
41:57in
41:58the
41:59sense
41:59that
41:59your
42:00vehicle
42:01is
42:01between
42:01the
42:02pilot
42:02and
42:02the
42:02escort
42:03which
42:03are
42:03very
42:03visible
42:04my
42:05approach
42:06was
42:06no
42:07pilot
42:08no
42:08escort
42:09no
42:10nothing
42:11nobody
42:13can
42:13make
42:13out
42:14where
42:14I
42:14am
42:14and
42:17that
42:17that
42:17is
42:18how
42:18I
42:18you
42:21know
42:21went
42:23past
42:24all
42:24these
42:24things
42:25which
42:25you
42:25are
42:25saying
42:25you
42:26know
42:31last
42:31in
42:31your
42:32book
42:32you
42:32say
42:33that
42:33the
42:33story
42:33that
42:34was
42:34never
42:34told
42:35when
42:36you
42:36say
42:36that
42:36in
42:37parliamentary
42:38general
42:38elections
42:39after
42:40fractured
42:41so
42:42then
42:42you
42:45asked
42:46him
42:46to
42:46give
42:46you
42:46home
42:47guards
42:47you
42:48said
42:48you
42:48thought
42:49about
42:49it
42:50and
42:50you
42:50said
42:50no
42:50now
42:51why
42:52did
42:52that
42:52happen
42:53why
42:53did
42:54you
42:54decide
42:54to
42:54kind
42:54of
42:55I
42:55sat
42:56alone
42:56for
42:58about
42:58two
42:59hours
42:59with
43:01my
43:01eyes
43:01and
43:04looked
43:05at
43:06the
43:06situation
43:07in
43:08Bihar
43:08in
43:09the
43:09next
43:10three
43:11years
43:11I
43:13could
43:13see
43:14it
43:14very
43:14clearly
43:15that
43:17there
43:18will
43:18not
43:18be
43:18one
43:19chief
43:19minister
43:20in
43:20Bihar
43:20there
43:22will
43:22be
43:22at
43:22least
43:22three
43:23of
43:23them
43:23I
43:25can
43:26I
43:27was
43:27used
43:27to
43:28dealing
43:28with
43:28one
43:29chief
43:29minister
43:29as
43:30DDP
43:30I
43:32had
43:32a
43:32viewpoint
43:33the
43:33DCM
43:34had
43:34a
43:34viewpoint
43:35we
43:36used
43:36to
43:36discuss
43:37at
43:37length
43:37the
43:39only
43:39two
43:39of
43:39us
43:40but
43:43when
43:43that
43:44situation
43:44came
43:45up
43:45I
43:47knew
43:48that
43:48there
43:48will
43:48be
43:48a
43:49de
43:49jure
43:49chief
43:50minister
43:51there
43:51will
43:51be
43:51a
43:51de
43:52facto
43:52chief
43:52minister
43:53and
43:54there
43:54will
43:54be
43:55somebody
43:55from
43:55behind
43:56I
43:58couldn't
43:58handle
43:59that
43:59situation
44:00that's
44:01exactly
44:01what I
44:02did
44:02you
44:03saw
44:06this
44:07expression
44:07of
44:07relief
44:08when
44:09you
44:09said
44:09that
44:09you
44:09had
44:09decided
44:10to
44:10take
44:10a
44:10transfer
44:10so
44:11why
44:11would
44:11you
44:12think
44:12that
44:12why
44:12was
44:12he
44:13relieved
44:13accepting
44:14me
44:15as
44:15the
44:16DGP
44:17of
44:17the
44:17state
44:18yeah
44:20not
44:23all
44:24chief
44:24ministers
44:24can
44:25handle
44:25why
44:27because
44:30I
44:32can
44:32tell
44:32you
44:33very
44:33clearly
44:33no
44:35chief
44:35minister
44:36can
44:36accept
44:37a
44:37no
44:37from
44:37the
44:38DGP
44:38and
44:42which
44:42I
44:42was
44:43used
44:45to
44:45saying
44:47very
44:47frequently
44:48because
44:52a
44:53chief
44:53minister
44:54can
44:54take
44:55political
44:56decisions
44:57the
44:59implications
44:59on the
45:00department
45:01and the
45:02police
45:02can be
45:04understood
45:05only by
45:06the head
45:07of the
45:07department
45:07and
45:09Nitish
45:09Kumar
45:10used to
45:10listen
45:10to you
45:11he was
45:14open to
45:15arguments
45:16because
45:19you did
45:25it in
45:252005
45:26and
45:26ironically
45:26this
45:27election
45:27again
45:27they're
45:28talking
45:28this
45:28jungle
45:29Raj
45:29term
45:29is
45:29being
45:29thrown
45:30around
45:30you
45:31took
45:31your
45:31exit
45:32after
45:32you
45:32did
45:33what
45:33you
45:33did
45:33why
45:34did
45:34it
45:34never
45:35end
45:35and
45:36will
45:36it
45:36ever
45:37end
45:37there
45:38is
45:38enough
45:40evidence
45:41in the
45:42last 15
45:43years
45:44people have
45:45generally
45:46accepted
45:46this
45:47narrative
45:47that
45:49the
45:49first
45:50phase
45:50of
45:50the
45:53present
45:53government
45:54things
45:55showed
45:56up
45:56is
45:57is
45:57being
45:58being
45:58generally
45:58accepted
45:59with
46:01little
46:01bit
46:01of
46:02dispute
46:05on the
46:05level
46:06of
46:06showing
46:08up
46:08about
46:08I
46:15did
46:16it did
46:16show up
46:17politically
46:17also
46:18it was
46:192010
46:20the
46:21assembly
46:21elections
46:22the results
46:23just put a stamp
46:26on this fact
46:27that that was the best part of
46:30best period of
46:31the present government
46:33yeah
46:35the RJD just getting
46:3822 seats
46:39so
46:42I was not there
46:45I had retired
46:46I wouldn't exactly know
46:50what happened and why it happened
46:52and why it happened
46:54the way it happened
46:55I don't know
46:57and I don't care
46:58don't you feel like
47:00why are we still
47:04in the same place
47:05I did what I had
47:08you did so much
47:09I mean it must have taken a lot of effort
47:12to tackle it
47:15again
47:16I was being paid for it
47:20I was being paid to work
47:22as a DGP
47:23so the day I retired
47:2514th
47:27sorry
47:27December
47:2831st 2014
47:31I retired
47:32and I bid goodbye
47:33I did not even go and meet the chief minister
47:36and neither did I get a call
47:39I was not expecting it also
47:42I got an
47:44I
47:45I'm not going to be a servant
47:49all along
47:49I was a government servant
47:51I was a public servant
47:53why does anyone expect me
47:56to work as a servant
47:58all through my life
47:59I would like to be the master of my time
48:03I said now
48:04you've written one book
48:06this
48:07the book that
48:08I was reading
48:08what are you planning on
48:10what are you planning on
48:10what are you planning on
48:11something that you want to do
48:13live a peaceful life
48:15and
48:16I have something to offer
48:20yeah
48:22and that is
48:22I have two subjects
48:25and they come to me
48:27and they come to me
48:28and they come to me
48:29who have physics
48:31and mathematics
48:32so I'm teaching physics
48:36and mathematics
48:37to very poor children
48:38at the level of
48:4011 and 12
48:42with a purpose of
48:45making them get into
48:46the IIT
48:47I keep doing it
48:49I love it
48:51so
48:53yeah
48:54my work is
48:55to keep teaching them
48:57not with a view
48:59to making them
49:00and
49:00scientists
49:01because
49:02they are too
49:03poor
49:05it's a program
49:07which I
49:08have told myself
49:10is poverty
49:11eradication
49:12and not education
49:15the way these guys
49:17get into IIT
49:18or NIT
49:19and they
49:20turn their leaf
49:22around in life
49:23is something
49:25which gives me
49:26immense
49:26happiness
49:27no that's great
49:30thank you so much
49:31sir
49:31for talking to us
49:33to make you
49:36IIT
49:40to make you
49:41take me
49:43to make you
49:44IIT
49:45the way
49:47to make you
49:47IIT
49:48the way
49:49is that
49:50what I do
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