- 12 minutes ago
As Washington pushes a new vision for an AI-era supply chain, dubbed "Pax Silica," Southeast Asia finds itself at the center of a high-stakes contest between the United States and China.
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00:00U.S. President Donald Trump is making what appears to be his first foreign visit since his party got an
00:04absolute trouncing in the U.S. midterm elections.
00:07But it's not to a country that hosts one of his golf courses, or to a Persian Gulf oil ally,
00:13or even to a top 10 world economy.
00:15It's actually to the Philippines.
00:18That's because there's a massive gathering of leaders from Southeast Asian countries.
00:22These relatively small nations banded together decades ago, but are starting to play a larger role in an increasingly AI
00:30-driven world economy.
00:31And they're attracting billions of dollars of investment to this industry.
00:36But can the ASEAN countries, as they're known, stick together for mutual benefits?
00:41And how can they play nice with the U.S. while also keeping the world's second largest economy and massive
00:49regional player, China, on side?
00:51Welcome to The Dip, the podcast for money, power, and consequences.
00:56I'm Cassandra.
00:59And to delve into this topic, we're going to be zooming over to examine two countries who have a lot
01:04to gain, but potentially a lot to lose.
01:06Up first, I want to say hello to Richard Haydarian in Manila.
01:10He's a political economist and author of the forthcoming book, Fifty Shades of Hedging, Trump, China, and Southeast Asia's Struggle
01:16for Autonomy.
01:17Richard, thanks for joining us.
01:21My pleasure.
01:22And also on the line, we have James Chai joining us from London today.
01:26He was previously a policy advisor to the Malaysian Minister of Economy, where he worked on flagship policies related to
01:32AI innovation, startups, and chips.
01:34He's currently a visiting fellow at the ISEAS.
01:38James, thanks for making the time.
01:40Thank you so much for having me.
01:42Now, James, you've said before that you're super curious to understand how underdogs survive and thrive against much more powerful
01:50forces.
01:51You've even written about underdogs.
01:53What geoeconomic underdogs are you keeping an eye on right now?
01:58So the one that I think stands out the most are Los Alpes-Asian countries.
02:02The reason for that is because most of the countries there, like you've mentioned, are very small in size in
02:09terms of not only the economy, but also their global influence.
02:13This necessarily means that they always have to rely on others.
02:18In the past, it was a very open and free trade economy, which they try to hold on to.
02:24But at the same time, it is also to work with superpowers.
02:28So Southeast Asia has been always a theatre of great power, conflict, and this has been a feature of how
02:38Southeast Asia operates.
02:39And learning how to navigate big powers and trying to still benefit from conflict and rivalry is a feature of
02:47Southeast Asia.
02:48Now, Richard, you're a busy guy.
02:50You're on the go today.
02:51So viewers, forgive us for some of the noise you might hear in the background.
02:54But you're such a busy guy when you're not writing a book, hosting a podcast, or appearing or writing for
02:59other news outlets.
03:00You also train, from what I understand, in martial arts.
03:04And I'm wondering, are there lessons from the gym that can be applied to the world right now?
03:11Well, I mean, I started in taekwondo and then I went to boxing and I'm trying to dabble in martial
03:17arts, mixed martial arts right now.
03:19And I draw that into my understanding of geopolitics.
03:23I mean, you know, if you have the right techniques, for instance, in jiu-jitsu, you can take care of
03:28someone who's much larger than you.
03:30And I think geopolitical jiu-jitsu should be the name of the game as far as Southeast Asian countries are
03:35concerned.
03:36It is true that compared perhaps to China or India, Southeast Asian countries are not the biggest in the world.
03:41But if you look at countries like Indonesia, it's already a G20 economy, one of the largest democracy and Muslim
03:46majority nations in the world.
03:48If you look at Singapore, it's already part of G20 and punches well above its weight.
03:52The Vietnamese are already knocking on the door.
03:54And as far as Thailand and the Philippines is concerned, these are not insignificant economies.
03:59And collectively, if you look at the ASEAN, it's the fourth or fifth largest economic bloc.
04:03So as far as strategic agency is concerned, I won't look at Southeast Asian countries as helpless as some of
04:09the analysts try to put it.
04:11Having said that, of course, they're also in an important position because in many ways they can mediate between the
04:17superpowers.
04:18I mean, if you look at the latest scandal involving NVIDIA, it shows, for instance, the important role of Southeast
04:24Asian, in particular, Singapore, as a potential conduit for the movement of semiconductors and other important materials.
04:32If you look at critical minerals, for instance, Indonesia and the Philippines are among major producers of nickel.
04:37And if you look at President Trump's upcoming visit to Manila, one of the things on the table is the
04:42Pax Silica Initiative.
04:43And the Pax Silica Initiative is an attempt by the United States to create a kind of a China-free
04:49supply chain for critical minerals, for semiconductors, and every source of input that is important in terms of shaping the
04:56future of global order.
04:57So in that sense, I'm slightly more optimistic in terms of, at least in theory, the kind of strategic agency
05:03that so-called smaller countries in Southeast Asia can exercise.
05:07But whether we can do that, whether we have the leadership and the decisiveness, of course, that's up for a
05:12question.
05:13Yeah, you've teased a lot of the things that I want to get into today with both yourself and with
05:18James.
05:18But you're in Manila right now.
05:20What's the mood there ahead of this big meeting of regional and world leaders?
05:27Yeah, well, first of all, I'm sorry about the background noise and all.
05:30This is the best I could find with traffic and all the meetings happening.
05:33And next week is going to be very busy.
05:35President Trump is going to be in town between the 16th to 17th part of the city and the country
05:40to be shut down for these major events.
05:43I mean, first of all, in the Philippines, our priority right now is to get out of a stagflation situation.
05:48For a long time, Manila has been one of the fastest growing economies next to Vietnam.
05:53But the energy crisis brought about by the foremost rate has really been a huge major issue.
05:58Of course, it's the South China Sea disputes, where the Philippines and China actually have been at loggerheads.
06:03And the Philippines is prioritizing ways to de-escalate tensions on that front.
06:07And of course, when it comes to critical artificial intelligence and energy security, very big items are up for discussion
06:15and negotiation in the coming days.
06:17From my understanding, a major digital cooperation framework is about to be signed next week here in Manila to allow
06:24for South Asian countries to have more seamless cooperation in terms of digital economy and in terms of interaction on
06:30the digital front.
06:31With clear implications for artificial intelligence and other important elements as far as the technological frontier competition is concerned.
06:38Right. James, let's break this down a little bit more for our listeners, some of whom might not be familiar
06:44with the ASEAN countries and how this organization works together.
06:47Why have they banded together to form this ASEAN, A-S-E-A-N, working group?
06:54I guess you'll know the better term than me. And what do they have in common besides geography?
07:00So ASEAN started in 1967, where it was actually a Cold War anti-communist bloc by five founding members.
07:08And the whole point at that time was to make sure that it is ideologically not on the side of
07:14the communists.
07:15But through the years, what it has actually evolved to was to find common ground from very, very different political
07:23systems, different economic outlook into something that they could agree on.
07:29There is a huge achievement track record in terms of like signing a lot of trade deals, free trade agreements
07:37between the region as well as between the countries.
07:41And in recent years, there is also more evolution in terms of like having a secretariat, having some budget, having
07:50regular meetings and more importantly, having convening power.
07:54It is probably one of the very few forums in the world that regularly hosts both U.S., China and
08:01other major powers.
08:02It is also a region that is what is often called like a non-interference way of operating, whereby individual
08:11countries, no matter how different they are, member states do not interfere with each other's political affairs.
08:18However, it is not as an institutionalized way like the EU, where they have like common legislative bodies, common executive
08:29bodies.
08:31Largely, ASEAN has been criticized as being not as effective in terms of getting a lot of key issues forward.
08:39The only thing that they have really made a lot of achievements on is maintaining relative peace relative to other
08:46parts of the world, as well as a lot of like free trade agreements that really increase the trade profile,
08:54as well as foreign direct investments that matter to all of the Southeast Asian member states.
08:59In terms of this Trump visit, as we were talking a little bit about already, what is going to make
09:05this a success for the U.S. president?
09:08Is this a trip about reassuring partners, containing China, selling the MAGA economic vision, or is it simply about being
09:16there, James?
09:16What's going to make success for this trip for President Trump?
09:21So I think the backdrop is quite important.
09:23I think, Cassandra, you pointed out the fact that there was just the midterms where the Republican had really suffered
09:29quite a huge loss of support.
09:32A lot of attention has also been divided in terms of like Middle East taking most of the foreign policy
09:38attention of the U.S.
09:40And also very closely to this ASEAN summit is the APEC summit that Trump is scheduled to meet with President
09:47Xi Jinping.
09:47What this necessarily means is that this summit has not been probably thought about significantly in terms of like what
09:57they want to achieve compared to, let's say, the last year,
10:01where there are more concrete agenda when it comes to like the peace accords between Thailand and Cambodia, more issues
10:09relating to tariff, reciprocal trade.
10:12All of those are like very, very big items.
10:15A lot of analysts, including myself, think that even walking away with one big commercial agreement, relative acceptance by Southeast
10:25Asian countries that has been in a lot of the tariff discussions,
10:29as well as reciprocal trade discussions, walking away with relative harmony and acceptance of President Trump would give enough standing
10:38to President Trump walking away from it.
10:41So I don't see a major, major deliverable that is very important to the U.S., but that appearance still
10:49lends a lot of like weight to Southeast Asia.
10:52At the same time, walking away with one big commercial agreement, it could be something relating to AI or the
10:59digital economy that the U.S. could offer either as a stack.
11:05Those things I would foresee at least one item of that nature.
11:08Richard, we've alluded now to Pax Silica a few times.
11:13People might be wondering, you know, why are we throwing around what sounds something like almost kind of Roman Empire
11:18times, right?
11:19But in one sentence, maybe I'll give you two because I know that you're a smart guy.
11:23What is Pax Silica?
11:27Well, I think this is the greatest expression of what Leifizer, this is the person behind both the Reagan and
11:35Trump 1.0 trade, essentially, doctrine, right?
11:40The idea there is to create a new global economic order.
11:44So the conception here is that there's going to be a China block, meaning China and countries that are dependent
11:50on Chinese technology and down the road, Chinese AI and supply chain.
11:54There's going to be a zone of potentially non-aligned countries.
11:57I don't know how many of them will be left by the end of this century as the two superpowers
12:00pressure everyone to take a side.
12:02And then the idea, basically, thereby, this is the protectionist-minded people in Washington, this is to create a kind
12:09of a U.S.-led supply chain on everything that matters,
12:13whether it's critical minerals, semiconductors, artificial intelligence data centers.
12:17And this is where Pax Silica is.
12:19So Pax Silica is some sort of a U.S.-led enclosed model together with allies, free from China.
12:26China and Philippines will produce the critical minerals, semiconductors will come from Taiwan, the packaging and design comes from the
12:33United States.
12:34So the whole idea is to create that special economic block.
12:37And that will more or less determine the direction of the great power competition in global order.
12:42At least that's the idea behind the Pax Silica.
12:44But as we speak, the Pax Silica itself is under question.
12:47There are different versions of it.
12:49And as I said, yes, the U.S. and China will force us to make a choice.
12:52But as much as possible, none of us, including U.S. treaty allies or Chinese partners in this part of
12:57the world, want to choose.
12:59Because they know that the moment that they choose to criticize, that weakens their bargaining position.
13:03And that puts them in contraposition to one of the two superpowers.
13:06And they don't want to be in that position.
13:08And I know you said that there's a few versions maybe still being discussed at this point.
13:13What role does the Philippines have in this project?
13:15I understand it's quite critical.
13:19Yeah, so one way to understand Pax Silica is this is where, you know, you could build a lot of
13:24AI data centers, you know, in places like the Philippines, across the Indo-Pacific.
13:28And these AI data centers will be essentially a drug of America's AI frontier companies.
13:34The other idea is that this will be also coming along with critical minerals, critical minerals processing.
13:39So the Philippines is, I think, the second largest producer of nickel.
13:43And unlike Indonesia and other countries, it's not as dominated by Chinese companies.
13:47So you're expecting not only the Americans, but the Japanese, the Koreans, the Europeans to get involved in that.
13:53And then there are also discussions about semiconductors.
13:56The Philippines actually exports close to $50 billion annually in terms of electronics and more than $10 billion annually in
14:02terms of semiconductors.
14:04But it's more at the lower end of the supply chain, the value chain.
14:08And what the Philippines wants to do with Pax Silica is to move up there.
14:11And, of course, much of the high-grade semiconductor production is in Taiwan with TSMC.
14:16And from what I understand, TSMC, some Japanese and Korean companies, not to mention Americans, are looking at the Philippines
14:23as a way to diversify away from Taiwan,
14:26also as a way to create new nodes for semiconductor-critical minerals processing hubs.
14:32So that is the game.
14:34That's a great game that is being played, at least in theory, by Pax Silica.
14:37The reason why I'm a little bit ambiguous about this or I'm a bit iffy about this is that Trump
14:43is on his last leg.
14:45And the Philippines' Marcus administration is also entering its last leg.
14:49So 2020 countries could have new presidents with new directions.
14:52And the reason, again, I'm a little bit ambiguous about this is because I've covered multiple U.S. administrations throughout
14:58decades.
14:58And each of them comes up with a big initiative, Trans-Pacific Partnership with Obama, Digital Free Trade Agreement with
15:05Biden, and now Pax Silica.
15:07And for some reason, none of them get past the finishing line.
15:11So we might end up in a year or two with a hodgepodge version of whatever Pax Silica is supposed
15:15to be all about.
15:16No, a completely fair point.
15:19James, Malaysia isn't a part of this deal, at least as I understand it, but it is a part of
15:23ASEAN.
15:24And you were a part of the Economy Ministry's AI development plans in Malaysia.
15:29What's it like to get an industry like this off the ground or to further develop it so that it
15:34is a major regional, if not global, player?
15:38So that's a really good question because ultimately, I think it comes with a combination of the natural conditions that
15:45a country has,
15:46as well as whether that country could take advantage of it quick enough.
15:50I think the example of data centers in Malaysia is worth highlighting because the state of Jofor, which is where
15:57most of the hotspot is,
15:59went from a country with less than 10 megawatts just three years ago to now 1,000 megawatts at the
16:07minimum.
16:07And people are really looking at a few multiples of that.
16:12It started off from having the natural conditions of competitive costs when it comes to land, water, electricity, as well
16:21as construction costs.
16:22It comes from having a high density of subsea cables around that part of Southeast Asia, which really opened up
16:30all of these opportunities.
16:31And the country really took a very adaptive approach in terms of responding to these billion-dollar investments by branded
16:39names,
16:40AWS, Microsoft, as well as the Chinese side of Huawei, Alibaba, and so on.
16:47So I think it took a combination of all of that.
16:50And then through a reiterative approach, determining a lot of the AI strategy going forward,
16:56what is interesting is that all Southeast Asian countries actually had their own AI or similar strategy before ChatGBT was
17:05released in 2022.
17:07And they changed all of their AI strategies after that, as did many parts of the world.
17:12And suddenly, things that have worked well in their favor, like AI infrastructure relating to data centers, became front and
17:20center.
17:20So to some extent, it came from an external wave of what their superpowers wanted.
17:26But it also came with some degree of agency on their part in determining where they would like to play
17:32the most,
17:33where they think that they have the highest opportunity of winning.
17:36And that became a really defining fact in terms of how they look at AI.
17:43Richard, I can't help but wonder, it seems like the last year has been a really defining year across many
17:49countries for the AI industry.
17:51When we step back and look at chips and the semiconductor business, is it already the world's most strategic, important
17:59strategic asset?
18:02Well, I mean, for those who are following the stock market and latest scandals falling on some of the titans
18:10of the industry,
18:10everyone is wondering if this were a bubble, right?
18:13Because, I mean, Malaysia is already a major player as far as data center is concerned.
18:17A lot of that has to do also with the fact that, you know, Malaysia has a very affordable energy
18:21infrastructure.
18:22That's why they were not so much hurt by the Hormuz Strait shutdown as, let's say, the Philippines.
18:27And the Vietnamese obviously are also rapidly developing their own, not only, you know, semiconductor industry,
18:33but they want to also be part of the artificial intelligence game in the coming years or so.
18:37The Thailand, the Thai also developed their own initiative here.
18:41I mean, the sense I'm getting here is that, you know, there's a fear that maybe we're talking about a
18:49bubble
18:50and that bubble might burst earlier than we thought.
18:52And if indeed there will be major initiatives moving forward, perhaps it will not be led by market considerations,
18:59but rather purely national security and geopolitical consideration.
19:03I mean, the idea that if American companies are going to invest in country X, Y, and Z in South
19:07Asia,
19:07it's not necessarily because, you know, this is what, you know, the profit margins or the cost curves are showing,
19:14but this is precisely because these are the countries that we can trust in order to diversify our base of,
19:20I mean, data centers or the basic infrastructure for our frontier research company.
19:24So I think we are probably in the middle, in media rest, right?
19:29We're in the middle of things being built, right?
19:31The pyramids are still being built and we don't know if this is a scam, this is a bubble or
19:36not.
19:36But the reality is that we have no option but try to bet on this because not being part of
19:41the AI game
19:41means you're basically out of the question, you're out of the equation.
19:44So the AI might be a hype, but it's a hype that has its own geopolitical reality and keeping a
19:50lot of people busy.
19:52All right. James, Richard alluded to it.
19:54There's been a recent scandal regarding the CEO of NVIDIA and a mega-speeding executive.
20:01But from the business point of view, we'll leave the salacious part of this to the side.
20:06From the business point of view, it raises a question about chip smuggling,
20:09chips that are supposed to undergo export controls from the U.S. side into China.
20:14What does this tell us about chip smuggling in the region, in particular via Singapore?
20:22Yeah, so I think a lot of this, not only in terms of smuggling, but also what they call transshipment,
20:28as well as remote access, all of these things are basically,
20:32how do you still serve Chinese clients without violating the law, right?
20:38So I think in the past few years, there has been a lot of crackdown in both Singapore, Malaysia,
20:43and a lot of servicing of all of these allegations of transshipment in other parts of Southeast Asia as well.
20:50I think it comes from this very, the thing that we talked about earlier,
20:55whereby the need for Southeast Asia to not be very, very strict on these things,
21:02to the point that it damages a lot of the commercial relations that it has with outside investment.
21:07And therefore, at the same time, trying to navigate this highly disruptive period
21:12of trying to think about what is allowed by export controls and what is not allowed, right?
21:17There has been many back and forths, like the AI diffusion framework
21:20of putting different Southeast Asian countries in different tiers,
21:24capping how many chips you can actually have.
21:27And there was also a period of time where people say,
21:30oh, is it okay that countries in Southeast Asia purchases those chips,
21:34but for Chinese usage through rentals?
21:38All of those things were actually quite murky grounds in terms of how to navigate this space.
21:43But when it comes to a lot of like more high profile scandals that we are seeing recently,
21:49I think a lot of Southeast Asian countries are also trying to think,
21:53what could they do that could enforce some of these export controls
21:58without damaging their own foreign direct investments
22:02as well as commercial relations with other investors coming in,
22:05but still protecting this whole notion of being a trusted neutral ground
22:11for them to continue to invite investors,
22:14as well as satisfy a lot of the security concerns of the US.
22:19This by no means is a very challenging task.
22:22Some countries like Singapore has gone very,
22:24very hard by prosecuting and investigating,
22:27raiding a lot of these offices.
22:29A lot of other Southeast Asian countries are more middle ground,
22:33whereby they would react by using their own domestic legislation
22:38to actually open up cases if there are grounds for doing so.
22:41And some, they would only do it if, let's say,
22:44US asked them to do it, right?
22:45So there are many, many different approaches,
22:47depending on what they feel would be defined balance here.
22:51But as what I think we've discussed so far,
22:54this is a delicate balance to actually navigate.
22:57And I wouldn't think that it is so common for other foreign direct investments in the past
23:03where it requires so much geopolitical acumen in navigating this space.
23:09Yeah, we've talked about this idea that maybe NVIDIA is in a bubble.
23:14It's not just for people who are really read in on this industry,
23:18like the three of us here.
23:20I'm in a workout group chat,
23:22and NVIDIA has come up in that group chat
23:25that's supposed to be about, you know, lifting weights, so to say.
23:28So I can't help but wonder, Richard,
23:30how risky is it to invest in AI right now,
23:35in particular, in a world that increasingly uses AI for military purposes?
23:40When it comes to AI, it depends what you have in mind.
23:44I think the Chinese version of AI is interesting,
23:46because the Chinese are less interested in developing a kind of an AGI,
23:50artificial general intelligence, some sort of a science fiction type.
23:53They're more interested in leveraging the artificial intelligence
23:56in terms of robotics, in terms of manufacturing capacity,
24:00in terms of enhancing their productivity, right,
24:03as they face a demographic winter.
24:05And I think for us in Southeast Asia,
24:07we have to really look into the mirror,
24:08because for a long time,
24:10Southeast Asia has struggled to build up its own manufacturing capacity
24:14because of competition from China at the lower end of the value chain.
24:18And now with China creating its own second shock or third shock,
24:22even to the industrial wars,
24:24I think a lot of us in Southeast Asia should wonder,
24:25is the AI race going to help us to generate enough jobs
24:29for hundreds of millions of young people
24:31in this part of the world who are hungry for well-paying jobs?
24:34Or the AI game is all about,
24:37we're just going to be incorporated into a Chinese order,
24:39or at best, we're going to be incorporated into an American order,
24:42but create very limited jobs.
24:43So my personal worry is that, you know,
24:46the AI is being sold as a panacea,
24:49but in fact, it could be either a Trojan horse
24:51for infiltration and influence by the superpowers,
24:54or at worst, it could be just a hype
24:56to cover up more structural,
24:58fundamental structural economic vulnerabilities
25:00across Southeast Asia,
25:01whether it's Indonesia, whether it's Philippines.
25:03You know, we have very weak manufacturing base,
25:06or at least not strong enough to create enough jobs
25:08for youthful populations.
25:10And now with China also docking robotics
25:14and manufacturing using AI,
25:16that China squeeze element is going to get more poignant for us.
25:21James, respond to what we're hearing from Richard,
25:23especially when we're talking about
25:24potential dual military use for artificial intelligence.
25:31So it is true.
25:32I think there are a variety of risks
25:35that are associated to AI.
25:37The first one is systemic,
25:39which means that the entire world's economy,
25:42including a lot of like Southeast Asian countries,
25:46central banks, bonds, their stock market,
25:48how much of it is tied to this entire AI hype.
25:53And anything that goes wrong
25:55that will significantly affect
25:57not only this entire ecosystem,
26:00but also in terms of like
26:01all of these data center build-outs
26:03that have been super rampant
26:05and the entire infrastructure for energy
26:07that's built around it,
26:08all of it will be severely affected as well
26:11if let's say things go south
26:12or even slows down for correction.
26:14In terms of like military usage,
26:17I think it would open up a new frontier of like controls.
26:21If let's say chips now,
26:23even for like ordinary cloud usage
26:25is highly contested.
26:27In the future,
26:28I think military usage would also be highly contested
26:32in terms of like security grounds.
26:34But if you add in AI,
26:36that chain of accountability
26:38as well as control
26:40will be even more significant.
26:42And lastly,
26:43I think what is very apparent here
26:45is also wider societal risk, right?
26:48So not only in terms of like
26:49not getting sufficient spillovers
26:52as is promised
26:53by a lot of the governments
26:55in developing economies,
26:57but more in terms of like cyber attack risk,
27:01in terms of like loss of control
27:03against all of these AI agents
27:05that are breaking out of ordinary environments
27:08that are put by developers,
27:10as well as sort of like
27:12as cognitive influences,
27:15either in terms of like
27:18what people undertake as knowledge
27:20or like foreign influence on democracies,
27:23which has been covered by Entropic.
27:25All of these are instances
27:26that will affect Southeast Asia,
27:28especially being a hub
27:31that is so open
27:32to so many different kinds of technologies
27:34and they pride themselves
27:35with having very few controls.
27:37I think 2027 will be not only a year
27:40where people start demanding
27:41for spillovers that come from AI,
27:44but also start regulating
27:47more persistently
27:48against the risk
27:49that emanates from this.
27:52Lots to look forward to there
27:54in the coming months and years,
27:56but we're going to have to hold it there.
27:58And I appreciate you both
27:59making the time to join us today.
28:01Richard Haydarian,
28:02author of the forthcoming book,
28:03Fifty Shades of Hedging,
28:04Trump, China, and Southeast Asia's
28:06struggle for autonomy.
28:07Richard, thanks for making the time.
28:10Pleasure.
28:12And James Chai joining us today.
28:13He's a visiting fellow from ISEAS.
28:16James, thank you as well.
28:18Thank you so much, Cassandra.
28:23That is it this week for The Dip.
28:25Thank you very much
28:25for tuning in, by the way.
28:26And of course,
28:27if you have a question or a comment,
28:28you can leave them
28:29wherever you're watching
28:30or listening to us right now.
28:32And speaking of listening,
28:33if you didn't know,
28:34now you know,
28:35we are actually also a podcast.
28:36You can find us
28:37and subscribe or follow
28:39by searching The Dip
28:40on the app of your choice.
28:42But until next time,
28:43thank you for watching
28:45The Dip.