- 2 hours ago
Pat Leonard joins the show to give an update on the first place Giants and preview tonight's game.
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00:00Excited to jump on the phone here and talk to our friend Mr. Pat Leonard from the New York Daily
00:06News
00:07and the Talking Ball with Pat Leonard podcast. Pat, what's up, dude? How you been?
00:12JP, I'm doing great. How are you guys?
00:14Oh, man, we're good, brother.
00:16We're good, man. Beautiful weather up here in the tri-state area.
00:23How are you? We can even start there, dude. How do you think the weather could impact things tonight?
00:30Oh, frankly, I think it plays into the Giants' hands if it's a mess
00:35because the Giants' blueprint for winning is already trying to be physical and run the football,
00:41and they're not bad at it.
00:43They're not the best in the league at it, but they're not bad at it,
00:46whereas I think the commander's best way to beat the Giants is with Jaden with the ball in his hands
00:53because their run game is not as formidable.
00:56So I think anything that helps the Giants prevent Jaden from either airing it out
01:02or the threat of the past leading to him running, I think he's a favorable thing for New York, most
01:06likely.
01:08I tend to agree with you there.
01:10Make sure you guys give Pat a follow at PLeonard, N-Y-D-N,
01:14and you can subscribe to the Talking Ball with Pat Leonard podcast on YouTube.
01:19You had Wink Martindale on your podcast earlier this week, I think,
01:24and I don't know.
01:29Wink's commentary on Steph Diggs and Dan Quinn popped up on my timeline like 50 times.
01:34I don't think...
01:36Wink talking about Cardi B would pop up on the timelines, though.
01:41Old-ass man mentioned in Cardi B.
01:44Hey, I didn't have that on my bingo card, him mentioning Cardi B, that's for sure.
01:49You never know what he's going to say.
01:51That's what makes these episodes great.
01:53Yeah, for sure, man.
01:55But I thought his commentary just about the lack of explosiveness in the commander's pass game
02:01was really pretty dead on, especially now McLaurin's down.
02:06They're going to get Burks back tonight, which helps.
02:08But what we saw in that tie back in October was the Giants late in that game
02:15almost like flipped their defensive philosophy and just went all out,
02:19zero blitz at Jaden over and over and over again.
02:22Do you expect to see a lot of that tonight?
02:24What do you expect the Giants' defense to look like tonight?
02:27No, I do.
02:28I think Denard Wilson in that game, the defensive coordinator for the Giants,
02:31who is running a branch of Wink Martindale's system,
02:36at the commanders tonight, I think in that game you could see he figured out a couple things.
02:42One, Daniels was rushing the ball out when he faced pressure.
02:47And two, the only thing they really weren't able to get a handle on was stopping Jaden from escaping.
02:54And Wink talked about this on our Wednesdays with Wink episode is the best way to defend that part of
03:00it
03:00from the Giants' center against Daniels in general is to not give him those empty and open gaps.
03:07It's to plug those gaps with bodies and show him there's a wall in front of you, Jaden,
03:13so you're going to need to throw the ball over top of us.
03:15You're not going to be able to escape yourself.
03:17And so I think he's going to see a ton of that in this game as well.
03:22His numbers against the Blitz in that game were not bad, though, as a passer.
03:26Like, he obviously is a very good quarterback, so you're kind of taking one thing away to risk giving up
03:32another
03:32when you're doing it.
03:35But what I saw in that game in Washington that ended up in a tie,
03:40and a lot of quarterbacks are playing like this, J.P. and V. Mitch,
03:43but I feel like when, and I saw some criticism of Jaden nationally this morning,
03:47I can't remember what show it was on.
03:49Might have been on one of the morning shows.
03:52But they were saying at some point he's got to put the ball in harm's way to try to make
03:55a play.
03:56And that's what I saw in the game against the Giants a few weeks ago is
03:59it felt like if there was something he obviously had, he would go to it.
04:04But rather than go for a 50-50, he'd rather just throw the ball away and live to see another
04:09day.
04:09Now, is some of that just being smart and playing the game script and trusting your defense?
04:15Is some of that kind of guarding against having your stats look too bad in a game?
04:19You know, I don't know.
04:20I mean, I think a lot of quarterbacks play that way.
04:21Bo Nix plays that way.
04:23But he's going to have to try to take some risks
04:25because I think the Giants' defense is going to take some risks.
04:27Well, when you look at it, you flip the other side.
04:30And I think the physicalness of the Giants is one thing.
04:35And that wasn't working for them against Washington.
04:37It was Jameis Winston and his passing that was killing them and carving them up.
04:42They've gone to McCarthy now.
04:44You think that he has the ability to do the same thing Winston does?
04:51No, he's not the same kind of quarterback, B. Mitch.
04:54I think you're implying that too, which I think you're correct.
04:57Like, you know, this is the most interesting part of this game
05:01is everything about this game points to the Giants' direction
05:04except the quarterback matchup.
05:06Like, you know, J.J., in the Houston game,
05:10they won in his first start a few weeks ago before the bye.
05:13The recipe was run the football well,
05:15and then when they needed J.J. to make a play,
05:18they asked him to make about six to eight, like, tough throws in key spots,
05:22third downs, things like that.
05:23And he made almost all of them.
05:26And so it really looked like what he looked like at Michigan, right?
05:29That's kind of how they won the national title
05:31is exactly what I just said.
05:33In the Philadelphia game, though, they were behind the sticks a lot.
05:36They were committing penalties.
05:37They were second and third in longs.
05:39And it looked a lot different, you know?
05:41And then Jameis came in for one full drive when J.J. got hurt,
05:46and suddenly the offense was electric.
05:49So I think if you look at this and you say,
05:52is Dan Quinn going to out-coach John Harbaugh?
05:54I say no.
05:55Are the commanders going to run the ball better than the Giants?
05:57I say no.
05:58Is the commander's defense a better defense than the Giants?
06:01I say no.
06:02But Washington has a better quarterback on the field, I believe,
06:06until J.J. shows us otherwise.
06:08And so could Jameis enter this game
06:12if we see the offense look as poor early as it did against Philly?
06:16I don't think that's out of the question.
06:19It's interesting with McCarthy
06:21because I think there's obviously questions about him
06:26as maybe a limited passer.
06:27But now you've also got the health factor, too.
06:30How healthy is he?
06:32What is going on there?
06:34We've heard foot.
06:35We've heard hip.
06:36There was that video of him trying to throw
06:38and he looked in significant pain.
06:42Yeah, it's a hip pointer.
06:46They hurt like hell.
06:48Oh, yeah?
06:49Yes, indeed.
06:51What does it stop you from doing, V-Mitch?
06:53The thing about it is when you sneeze, you move, you feel it.
06:59It can stop you from lifting your leg,
07:01from being able to run in your same gait.
07:04You know, and when you step into a path of his left leg,
07:09it can make it to where his foot doesn't land properly.
07:11If it's right leg, can he get enough push-off
07:14to get the ball where he wants it to go?
07:16Very interesting.
07:17Yeah, so, you know, J.J. has not,
07:20he's not the runner that Jackson Dart is, right?
07:23He does have more mobility and that element.
07:26And he even showed it in Philly once he was dealing with the hip pointer
07:30than Jameis does.
07:32But that's another factor, J.P., is a good point by you.
07:35I mean, that's another factor where if he's not 100%,
07:39even more reason maybe to go to the veteran,
07:41especially on a short week.
07:42When we watched them practice for one day this week on the short week,
07:47J.J.'s throws and his motion and everything looked normal.
07:50But when he walked by me, he had a lip.
07:53So, you know, I think that probably tells you where he's at.
07:57Do you think there's a, like, do we know that they're going with,
08:02do we know that they're going with J.J. tonight
08:05or is there a question there?
08:08Whew.
08:10I don't have a question about that
08:11based on what John Harbaugh has said this week.
08:14But, but, I would say that thought crossed my mind this morning
08:21as I was having the conversation with myself
08:24and with some others on the phone that I'm having with you right now.
08:27Here's what I think, too.
08:29And this is just my opinion.
08:30No one's telling me this.
08:32I think Jameis looks at this,
08:33and first of all, J.J.'s done everything right since he's been here,
08:36and it's the arrows pointing up.
08:38I think Jameis is looking at this like,
08:40hey, I'm the best quarterback on this team right now.
08:42You sure?
08:43And that's how all these guys have to think anyway.
08:46But, like, after what you saw in Philly,
08:48I mean, it was the only touchdown they scored in the game
08:51was the one drive Jameis played.
08:53And so, I think, listen,
08:57for this giant season to be what it needs to be,
09:00J.J. has to be the guy
09:01because if the Giants had confidence in Jameis being that guy,
09:06they wouldn't have panic-traded for a quarterback
09:09the second they had to watch him start a game or two.
09:13So, they, as an organization,
09:17know they need to and want J.J. McCarthy to work out.
09:20So, I think that he would still end up being the starting quarterback here.
09:25But, you know, maybe the injury issue leaves him with a short leash.
09:29All right.
09:30That's interesting.
09:31And you combine that with division game,
09:35weird stuff always happens.
09:37It's almost like,
09:38I don't know if we can find the odds of Jameis Winston
09:41over under one pass attempt,
09:43but it sounds like maybe we should look at it.
09:45Oh, hammer that.
09:48With Jameis,
09:49you mentioned the electricity he brought
09:51when he came into that Eagles game.
09:53But Jameis is a live wire.
09:55That electricity goes both ways.
09:57He opens things up for the defense to create turnovers, too.
10:02That'll be a really, really interesting kind of sub-element to this.
10:06Talking with our buddy Pat Leonard,
10:07New York Daily News covers the NFL and the New York Giants.
10:11I wanted to ask you because Sonny Stiles has been great in Washington.
10:17Arbel Reese looks like an absolute monster.
10:20What is Arbel giving to this Giants defense?
10:23Yeah, everything.
10:24I mean, he can go sideline to sideline against the run.
10:28He does not quit on plays, which you're expecting of everybody.
10:32But because he runs like a freight train,
10:34it stands out even more.
10:36And he has more of an impact when he actually gets there,
10:38whenever he gets there.
10:39They also, the big talking point, but it's true,
10:44is that coming out in the draft,
10:45one of the reasons he didn't go higher than he did
10:47was teams didn't think he was an edge rusher
10:51or weren't confident he was a fully honed edge rusher.
10:55And the Giants,
10:56but they were still trying to pigeonhole him into that.
10:59And you saw David Bailey go to the Jets ahead.
11:02The Giants said, you're an off-ball linebacker,
11:04and that's where we're going to play you.
11:06And we'll still find ways to get you to the quarterback
11:08because we know you can do that too.
11:10And the combination of how they identified his skill set
11:13and how they've deployed him,
11:15where as a blitzer or as a rusher down on the line of scrimmage,
11:19they can fully take advantage of his full skill set.
11:23That's what's making him just an all-around dynamic player.
11:26I mean, in this Eagles game, you know, 12 tackles, three sacks.
11:30I think he's the first rookie ever to have three sacks
11:33since they started recording it in a game.
11:35Three QB hits, three tackles for loss,
11:38a forced fumble on the one sack of Joe Milton.
11:41I couldn't believe Joe Milton got back up.
11:43And what you're seeing, J.P. and B. Mitch,
11:46that was crazy.
11:47But the X factor of this is that with Brian Burns out,
11:51you know, Denard Wilson's had to send more pressure,
11:53figure out more ways to the QB.
11:55You have Kayvon Thibodeau, Abdul Carter,
11:57but like in a game like the Philly game,
12:00Abdul essentially accepted that he was going to be doubled
12:03and focused on so that Arvell could get to the quarterback
12:06and not him.
12:08Abdul's actually having a phenomenal season
12:10when it comes to disruption,
12:11but now it's kind of a pick-your-poison deal
12:13with these guys because of how Arvell is playing.
12:16That's really the X factor.
12:19Pat, one of the interesting,
12:22one of the reasons Dan Quinn and Adam Peters,
12:26who hasn't spoken publicly about it,
12:28but I think one of the reasons Washington did not sell
12:31whatever pieces they had at the deadline
12:33was because they believed they could climb back
12:36in this NFC East race.
12:38Like, I don't know that Giants people feel this way,
12:41but at least around the league,
12:43I think there's some skepticism that the Giants
12:46are the real deal.
12:48You've watched this team through highs and lows.
12:50Like, is this team for real?
12:52Do you think?
12:53I mean, they've got, what, nine games left?
12:56If they can go roughly 500, they'll get to nine wins.
12:59Do you sense a giant collapse coming in the second half?
13:04That's a great question.
13:05I would say this.
13:07Are they the best team?
13:08I don't know.
13:09They are the best coach team.
13:12So, that is the reason to have confidence in them.
13:16Like, you know, the website Impredictable
13:20that factors tons of analytics into it.
13:24So, it spits out where your team is,
13:26but also where it's projected to go
13:27based on strength of schedule, offense, defense,
13:30and all the behind-the-scenes stats
13:31that you can't see on the broadcast and on the field.
13:34And as they were winning early, JP,
13:37this website was fading them like crazy.
13:40Like, even with them in first place in the NFC East,
13:43this website was projecting the Giants
13:45as, like, the worst team in the league
13:46based on the performance of their offense and defense.
13:50I mean, you referenced earlier Jameis Winston,
13:53how it goes both ways.
13:54Like, were the Giants the obvious better team
13:57in the game against the Commanders
13:58where they tied a few weeks ago?
14:00Like, no.
14:02Like, there were huge swings in the first half.
14:05It felt like if the Commanders scored touchdowns
14:07instead of field goals,
14:08it would have been over by halftime.
14:09Jameis threw an interception that gets called back.
14:12Like, there were all of these things
14:14where the Giants looked like
14:15they were getting in their own way,
14:16and then sometimes, somehow,
14:18it was just bouncing their way in the end.
14:21You know, what I think, JP,
14:24is that their schedule is going to be harder
14:25as the rest of this season goes.
14:28Like, after this, they have the Jaguars,
14:31the Niners, and the Seahawks
14:33in three of their next four games.
14:34They also have the Lions coming up,
14:36and they end with Cowboys-Eagles
14:38in the final two weeks of the season.
14:40That game against the Cowboys January 3rd
14:43probably is going to end up being for the division
14:45when all is said and done.
14:46But here's the thing.
14:48The quarterback position in Houston,
14:50J.J. looks pretty good.
14:51They win in overtime.
14:53There's a lot of excitement.
14:54In Philly, they kind of won
14:55despite the quarterback position.
14:58This is the game against Washington
15:00where I do think Washington can climb back
15:02because I think they can win games like this.
15:05And I don't think any other team in the division
15:07is good enough to just slam the door shut
15:10and say, you know, might as well pack it in.
15:13Like, we don't have a chance.
15:14There's still a lot of games left in the season.
15:17But I would say if Washington doesn't win this game,
15:21then the Giants are 3-0-1 in the division.
15:24And they're in first place at 6-2-1.
15:26That becomes a hard thing to sell
15:29that Washington can stay in it after that, I think.
15:31Yeah, I believe that if they don't win this one,
15:33then they're cooked.
15:35So, but if they win this game,
15:37everything changes dramatically.
15:40I totally agree.
15:42I totally agree.
15:43By the way, Wink Martindale,
15:44I didn't let this clip go on Twitter yet,
15:46but in that episode he did on Wednesday,
15:49every Wednesday, by the way, Wednesdays with Wink,
15:51he actually also...
15:53Well, that's good, Randy.
15:54Yeah, he went after Adam Peters a little bit.
15:57He said that Bill Parcells always told him
16:00that when you look up from the 50-yard line,
16:03whoever's standing next to the owner
16:04is your biggest enemy.
16:05And he said that he feels like there's too many GMs,
16:08and he said Adam is one of them, in his opinion,
16:10that don't let the coaches coach enough,
16:13that there's only one Howie Roseman,
16:15and that a lot of these guys are kind of too involved
16:18in the coaching operation,
16:19too much turnover with guys like Kingsbury
16:22and Bobby Johnson not being there anymore.
16:24What do you think about that?
16:25I'm curious what you guys think about that.
16:28We've been talking a lot,
16:30as Bemich just sips his tea on this one,
16:32we've been talking a lot about
16:35the coaching staff construction this year
16:38and this offseason,
16:40and I think for Washington to roll with David Blau,
16:44I think that was a measured risk, right?
16:49I really like Blau.
16:50I think he's really sharp.
16:52Brian and I have talked to people around the league
16:54that know him, that really like him,
16:56and think he's really sharp.
16:57It was a calculated risk to go with an unproven guy,
17:01right?
17:01But I think to surround him with other unproven guys,
17:05like Bobby Johnson, that was fired,
17:09and then they promote internally a first-time offensive line coach,
17:14first-time pass game coordinator.
17:15It's an interesting decision-making,
17:18and you couple that with the reporting late last year.
17:22I think Rossini reported it,
17:23and then others had the story
17:25that Cliff Kingsbury and Adam Peters' relationship
17:28had deteriorated to the point where they weren't speaking.
17:31It does make you wonder.
17:33I'm not sure on other teams
17:35how much the GM and the OC are talking on a daily basis.
17:39They shouldn't have to.
17:42You know what I'm saying?
17:43Right.
17:43They shouldn't have to.
17:44The head coach is who the GM should be talking to.
17:47Nobody else.
17:49Agreed.
17:50Yeah.
17:51So send me that clip,
17:52or tag me on Twitter,
17:53whatever you did the last time,
17:54because I saw it everywhere I looked.
17:56So do it again.
17:58I'll say this.
17:58Yeah.
18:00I'll say this, Pat.
18:02People always look at the head coach
18:04when the team is losing.
18:06There's somebody that constructs a football team,
18:08and I think that person should be looking at
18:10just as close as the head coach.
18:13Completely agree.
18:14So those two guys cannot be separated.
18:17Those two guys work hand in hand.
18:20Well, Pat, let me ask you,
18:21because it's possible
18:23that Washington is going to have massive changes
18:27this offseason.
18:27At 2-5-1, nobody can ignore that possibility, right?
18:31Yeah.
18:32The same scene just unfolded for the Giants,
18:34where Brian Dayball gets bounced,
18:37but Joe Shane sticks around.
18:40How did that work in New York,
18:42that the GM stuck and the coach was out,
18:44and now you've got a veteran,
18:47John Harbaugh is probably the actual boss
18:49of the organization, I would guess.
18:51Correct.
18:51Yeah.
18:52Well, it worked by exactly what Beamish just said,
18:55which is, you know,
18:57there was a meeting after the second-to-last season
19:00of that previous regime,
19:01where Dayball could suddenly sense
19:04that the word we was no longer being said.
19:09It was he and I,
19:11and it was,
19:12okay, here are the things you're responsible for
19:14or to blame for,
19:16but I'm not taking a part in that.
19:18And, you know,
19:19once you're not a team,
19:22you know,
19:22that means somebody's on their way out.
19:24And really,
19:25the only reason it's working,
19:26JP and Beamish,
19:27is because despite retaining the GM,
19:30they stripped him of all of his power
19:32and gave it to Harbaugh.
19:34Yeah.
19:34And so that's why,
19:36and really,
19:38really,
19:39you know,
19:39we haven't seen a coaching search like that in a while,
19:41where not only was it so high profile
19:44and we were hearing about it minute to minute,
19:46but even after Harbaugh clearly made obvious to everyone,
19:50including the Giants,
19:51that he wanted the job
19:52and that this was the job he preferred,
19:54it wasn't going to happen
19:56if he didn't get that final say,
19:58full control.
19:59And of course,
20:00that depends on what the owner signs off on.
20:03It always ultimately just determined by
20:07whether the ownership says
20:09we're okay with this new structure
20:11and the Giants had to accept that
20:13in order to land the type of coach
20:16that was able to correct some of the issues
20:20that had been plaguing them for more than a decade.
20:24Pat,
20:25we got to let you go.
20:26Always appreciate your time.
20:27You got to pick for tonight?
20:29I'll pick tonight.
20:30I would say,
20:31I think the Commanders win this game.
20:34I think they're desperate.
20:36I think Jaden is just something
20:39the Giants haven't completely figured out.
20:42And I'm surprised this stat doesn't come up more.
20:45I feel like I keep having to tell people
20:46the Giants have not beaten Jaden yet.
20:49They've never beaten him.
20:50He's 3-0-1, I think, against them.
20:53He's never lost a game to the Giants.
20:55So I'm still waiting.
20:57I can't pick the Giants against him
20:59until they beat him once.
21:02Yeah, fair point.
21:03Thank you for your time, brother.
21:04See you tonight.
21:05Thanks, guys.
21:07That's our guy, Pat Leonard.
21:08You got to check out his podcast,
21:10Talking Ball with Pat Leonard.
21:11Give him a follow.
21:12P Leonard, N-Y-D-N.
21:14A lot of good work covering the Giants
21:15and covering the entire NFL.