- 3 minutes ago
Jeremy White and Joe DiBiase are joined by Joe Marino, host of the Locked on Bills and Bills Squad podcasts for his weekly conversation with Jeremy and Joe to break down what we’ve seen from the Buffalo Bills. The guys start by discussing the departure of CJ Gardner-Johnson as the Bills decided to cut the veteran, and Marino explains why he wants to see the Bills trade for a safety.
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00:00Talk some football here with our buddy, Mr. Joe Marino, the Locked on Bills podcast.
00:04He joins us on the Western Hotline.
00:06You can find everything he does at thejoemarino.com.
00:09Mr. Marino, good morning, sir.
00:11Good morning, Jeremy.
00:12Hope you're doing well.
00:13I'm all right.
00:14You know, it's a trade deadline week.
00:17The deadline's a week from yesterday.
00:19So we get a Bills game on Monday Night Football, and we get maybe a trade or two here or
00:24there.
00:24But we start with C.J. Gardner Johnson's release.
00:28You know, we can talk about that a little bit.
00:29I'll get your thoughts on what they're losing in Gardner Johnson, maybe what they never really got that they thought
00:34they were going to get,
00:35and how you envision things going from here.
00:37Are you convinced they will add another player, or do you think that they might like who they've got enough
00:43and communication can improve that they will stick with what they have?
00:48Well, the Bills certainly took a swing, right, in getting a player like C.J. Gardner Johnson,
00:53where you can find yourself curious about the good possible outcomes based on some of the film that he's put
01:01out in the past
01:02and being a playmaker and being on some really good defenses, but then there's always the other side of it.
01:08And, well, the other side of it came true, where, of course, the edginess and the chippiness of C.J.
01:14Garner Johnson was on full display, but the play just didn't back it up.
01:16I mean, the 26% missed tackle rate, that's the highest of any safety in the league so far this
01:21year,
01:22and the blown assignments made everyone worse around him, and, you know, the Bills cut bait.
01:27I think that's the right decision.
01:29I'm guessing they probably wanted to start Damar Hamlin moving forward,
01:33and obviously C.J. Garner Johnson is just not going to be a guy that's going to accept a benching,
01:38so it's a cut that's also really a benching.
01:42And I think the Bills will probably, you know, for the foreseeable future, roll with Damar Hamlin,
01:47and certainly probably like what they saw from Geno Stone in that game against Baltimore,
01:51but I don't think the presence of those players should move the Bills off of pursuing some of the safeties
01:58that could be out there.
01:59And there's some names, Imani Hooker with the Titans, Cam Bynum with the Colts, Buda Baker with the Cardinals.
02:05You know, the Bills should be actively trying to pursue those players.
02:09And, of course, Damar Hamlin, I think, increases the floor based on what C.J. Garner Johnson provided,
02:16but, you know, it's certainly a very, very upgradable spot.
02:18You think you'd like Damar Hamlin to be more of a reserve-type player for you.
02:22And so I think he can, you know, handle things for now,
02:26but obviously I'm certainly hopeful the Bills will go and get a safety.
02:32And, you know, a lot of guys, all the guys I just mentioned, there's some years left on their deals.
02:37So it's not like you're trading for somebody that's going to play, you know, the rest of this year.
02:41You're going to get some time with these players,
02:43and I think it's something that Brandon Bean's got to get after.
02:45This defense, you know, they certainly enjoyed Poyer and Hyde for so long,
02:49but now it's felt like so long since that's been a stable spot.
02:53Go get yourself a safety to pair with Cole Bishop.
02:55So of those guys you mentioned, you used the term I was going to follow up with,
02:59that maybe they've raised their floor, but they really need to worry about the ceiling at this point,
03:03if it's Damar Hamlin, Geno Stone, Cam Bynum, or Jesse Bates, or Amani Hooker, or Buda Baker.
03:10Joe, do they all have cap hits that are a little bit prohibitive?
03:14I feel like I'm looking at some numbers here, and to start the year, Hooker is 12, Bates is 20,
03:20Bynum is 15,
03:22and who's the other one? Buda Baker is also like a bigger one.
03:26So you're probably going to have to do some stuff to make that happen.
03:30Yeah.
03:31Well, the stuff is you're going to restructure Deion Dawkins, right?
03:34That's the lever that you pull.
03:36You've got about $4 million in space now.
03:38You do the Deion thing, and you'll have what you need to onboard any of those contracts.
03:42You felt like you maybe had an opportunity with Josh Palmer to pay somebody to take him,
03:48and you can get some cap space, but we have no idea what that injury situation is,
03:52and I think it's more likely that he goes on injury reserve than anything.
03:57And so it's that.
03:59You can nickel and dime it.
04:00You can restructure Benford and Rousseau and Shakir,
04:03and all of that might get you $2 million or $3 million.
04:06The challenge is with Deion.
04:08Yeah, Deion, you get it in one fell swoop.
04:10The other side of that is you're committing to Deion Dawkins beyond this season,
04:15which I find myself comfortable with,
04:18but I know that not everybody would agree with me on that.
04:20And so that's – and the Bills are going to be way over the cap next year, right?
04:24They're entering next offseason.
04:25It really depends on where the cap is set.
04:28But, you know, I think the lower projections are $30 million over.
04:31And so, yeah, you're losing some of that flexibility.
04:35But you obviously have a need right now and a chance right now to go do this thing.
04:39You know, one thing about the Dawkins move.
04:41Last year, didn't they restructure someone last year right at the deadline
04:44and then not make the move?
04:46Taron Johnson.
04:47Taron Johnson.
04:48Right.
04:48So they took a bigger cap hit on Taron Johnson, who they eventually – who they let go,
04:52because they restructured to make move, make room, and then they didn't make it.
04:56To me, if we get the news that they've done the Dawkins thing in the next three to four days,
05:01that is all signs point to.
05:04They're going to do something that costs money.
05:06I can't imagine they'd get caught doing that and then be stuck again without making a move.
05:12Right.
05:13Well, sure, but they did last year.
05:16So I get nervous about that.
05:19I think it's probably a hand-in-hand thing where –
05:22I'm sure these days are very, very strange in the NFL trade world where you've got buyers and sellers for
05:28sure,
05:29but the buyers would like to pay as little as possible.
05:32The sellers want as much as possible.
05:34There's a slate of games to play, and, of course, that could obviously influence things based on injuries
05:40and the demand changes.
05:42And so, you know, it feels like we're antsy for something to happen.
05:47I just feel like it's all going to come to a head Monday and Tuesday.
05:51And, of course, the Bills, I think, are at a major disadvantage playing on Monday Night Football ahead of this,
05:55where, I mean, you'd love to play Thursday this week and have a full opportunity to know where your injuries
05:59are.
06:00But the Bills, the last team to play this week, and the deadline, less than 24 hours after the conclusion
06:07of Monday Night Football.
06:08Joe, of all those veteran safety ideas that we just kind of ran through, and you also mentioned a few
06:13of them,
06:13which one's your favorite?
06:17Probably Amani Hooker.
06:19I think he's probably the youngest of the group.
06:22Versatile ball skills.
06:23He's played in a lot of different schemes, which I think is helpful when you're trying to onboard a player.
06:30So that's the one.
06:31I don't think there's any guaranteed money on his deal after this season as well.
06:34So I think he gives you some flexibility for, you know, maybe doing a new deal with him
06:39and allowing that to reduce his 2027 cap hit to kind of help with that.
06:45And he's also the player that I – I mean, you mentioned Jesse Bates.
06:49If he's truly available, geez, right, he's special.
06:51But he's the guy of that group that I think profiles best as, like, the deep post player.
06:57And I think what's helpful there is that positions Cole Bishop to play in lower alignments
07:02where I think he's a lot better.
07:04So it's the ball skills, the age, the contract, the fit with Cole Bishop that kind of has me most
07:12interested in Amani Hooker.
07:13Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the Bishop part of that because that's what I've wondered.
07:16Like, how many of these safeties might just look like great ideas but might not mesh the best with Bishop?
07:22Because now we've seen Bishop with Hamlin, with Gardner-Johnson, last year with Poyer.
07:27And it does feel like – at least with Poyer and Hamlin, and maybe this is communication too,
07:32that he – you see a difference in Bishop depending on who the other guy with him is.
07:37No doubt.
07:38And I thought Jim Leonard was very telling this week when he talked about, you know, the Bishop
07:43and when he's at his best and he talked about consistency around him.
07:46And I think that was probably foreshadowing of the move that was to come in the release of C.J.
07:51Garner-Johnson.
07:52And so I think Amani Hooker is certainly that guy.
07:54He's played with Kevin Byard for some time in Tennessee.
07:57And like I said, the different systems that he's played and I think positions him well to step in and
08:03pick things up.
08:04Joe Marino joining us on the Western Hotline.
08:06All right, Joe, so looking back at the game that was,
08:10they're talking about their communication being better in the secondary.
08:15And I know that we're all doing the dance where it's, all right, how good was it?
08:19What would you expect?
08:21You know, they win a game by 26 where they play a scout team quarterback.
08:24So, you know, the 36 to me is the sign of a good offense.
08:27The defense I don't really know what to do with.
08:30What do you feel comfortable taking away from that game?
08:34Yeah, I think four things.
08:35And, of course, everybody knows they played a third-string quarterback that's an undrafted.
08:39Like you said, I think the best way to put it, Jeremy, is you played a scout team quarterback, right?
08:42He was Josh Allen all week, and then he had to go be the starter for the Ravens, right?
08:47Four things.
08:48First of all, Jim Leonard in the booth.
08:50I thought his remarks on that were pretty candid, talking about how he had an emotionally mature coaching staff and
08:57team.
08:58And, you know, he took that early season opportunity to be on the sideline and leverage being able to look
09:03guys in the face.
09:04But when he's up in the booth, he can be in the lab, and things can be more organized for
09:09him and get to things that he wants to get to.
09:11And he doesn't have to rely on other people to say things about, you know, what the other team is
09:15doing.
09:16And so I think that put him in a position to call a better game.
09:19He acknowledged that.
09:20So I think that's helpful moving forward.
09:22Number two is you had personnel changes.
09:24You did get a look with Damar Hamlin as the starter.
09:28You had two different nickel packages, one with the Corey Couch, one with Geno Stone.
09:32I think that's a good wrinkle to build off of.
09:34And then you had a 33-percentage-point increase in both man coverage and blitz rate.
09:38And the one thing that I talked all week about during the buy and, like, what's the problem with the
09:43defense,
09:43it was that, in a nutshell, it was passive and predictable.
09:46They were running a ton of zone that was passive.
09:48It wasn't disguised.
09:50And they weren't blitzing.
09:51They weren't doing anything to make life difficult for the quarterback.
09:54And so they're just taking free access all over the place.
09:56It's compounded by having blown coverages all over, you know, assignment issues.
10:00And so, yeah, they played a scout offense.
10:04But they did do things differently that I think are positives for the direction moving forward.
10:11And, look, I mean, they're playing this Minnesota.
10:13The offense is not really that good.
10:16They didn't get the Jets and the Dolphins.
10:17So, like, sorry, great offenses aren't coming.
10:19But I think playing better matters.
10:22Getting some confidence, right?
10:24Like, I'm sure that matters.
10:26Like, that'll help build over the next few weeks as opposed to, oh, no, here we go again.
10:29We can't stop them.
10:30We can't help the offense.
10:32Get the confidence.
10:33You're going, trying some different things in a lot of different ways.
10:37And it gives you something to build off moving forward.
10:39There's a reason today to be more optimistic about this Bills defense than there was a week ago.
10:44So, Joe Marino with us on the Western Hotline.
10:47Joe, on the defense, how do you feel like they stack up then against this Minnesota offense?
10:51And I know we don't really fully know who will start a quarterback yet.
10:54But they are not playing murderer's row coming up, especially at that position.
10:59Like, it's either Kyler or Wentz, and then it's Geno Smith, Malik Willis.
11:02With what they just did against Baltimore, even it being scout team quarterback, and with what you just said,
11:08do you feel like they're about to look a lot better in these next couple weeks starting on Monday?
11:12You know, Minnesota's offense is interesting to me because I feel like they're really talented, right?
11:18Like Jordan Addison, Justin Jefferson, Jawan Jennings, T.J. Hawkinson is your top four in the passing game.
11:23They have a pretty good offensive line across the board.
11:26I mean, really good tackles.
11:27Center that's been there for a while.
11:29A guard that's big-time paid in Will Fries now.
11:32Of course, their left guard is Donovan Jackson.
11:33He's a first-rounder that's out, so they have kind of a plug-in player there.
11:37But outside of quarterback, you're like, this is a pretty good group of personnel.
11:42But look, the frustrations are big in Minnesota right now.
11:46You know, listening to Luke Brown of Locked On Vikings this week, he's calling for Kevin O'Connell to give
11:52up play-calling duties,
11:53talking about the scheme being broken, Kyler Murray and these executions.
11:57Like, there's a lot of, for a 6-1 football team, like, they are not happy about a lot that's
12:03going on with that offense.
12:04And I think what you have is a consequence of a very disjointed operation over the last several years with
12:10Quacey as their general manager,
12:12who's now been fired.
12:13And, you know, him really just, it felt like he was at odds with or listening to two different voices
12:19and Flores and Kevin O'Connell.
12:21And there just wasn't a really cohesive plan to build.
12:23And I think it just kind of led to this point where you've let quarterbacks go that are now playing
12:29really good ball elsewhere,
12:31some that play good ball for you.
12:32And it just feels like it's a chaotic moment for this offense.
12:36And so from an on-paper, like, player's perspective, I think they're in pretty good shape.
12:41They're just, it's not performing well.
12:43And, you know, I think the Bills have to build off of the things that they did last week and
12:47do it against this team.
12:49And, obviously, I think there's more receiving talent to be mindful of that can get you in trouble.
12:54But I think you've got to kind of trust where you're going.
12:57And I think they have a good chance to limit Minnesota.
13:00Everybody's been limiting Minnesota.
13:01I think, you know, it's how many points can they score?
13:03We'll find out.
13:04Joe Marino.
13:05Joe, does the Josh Palmer injury do anything for you in terms of how the Bills should approach the roster,
13:12the deadline, anything like that?
13:15Well, no.
13:16I'll say this.
13:17No, because I think anything that you were going to get from Josh Palmer, you could probably get from Tyrell
13:22Shaver.
13:22So I think you have, like, your natural swap there.
13:24But that doesn't change the idea of if opportunities are there to add some firepower.
13:30I think you have to consider it.
13:31I mean, we see how different this team is when DJ Moore's available.
13:35And he's, like, banged up continuously.
13:38It feels like every play, something he gets up and he's taking a shot at his ankle or shoulder, whatever's
13:43going on.
13:45But, I mean, give yourself as much juice as you can.
13:48I mean, that's the thing about receivers is they're just always available through trades.
13:52And so if the right one were to come along that adds another layer to your team, I think you
13:56have to think about it.
13:57Do I think it's the number one thing the Bills need to do?
13:59No.
13:59But if they came out of this deadline period with some more juice at receiver, I think it makes a
14:06lot of sense.
14:06And, again, to me, that's absent of what Josh Palmer was giving you.
14:11I think, you know, I think regardless if he was healthy today, I think you still could think about it.
14:15Is there a name you like?
14:16I mean, Brian Thomas Jr.'s name is out there.
14:18Joe Kelly's got it in updates.
14:20Josh Downs is said to be on the radar for the Steelers and the Chiefs.
14:26What role, if you're trying to find one, you know, maybe the answer is anybody that boosts the room.
14:32But is there a skill set?
14:33Is there something that you would want?
14:35For me, I think it would be speed.
14:37I would want some speed because without Palmer, you know, they lose a little bit of that.
14:42And if it's field stretching, I mean, his yards per catch is up near 30, even though it's not the
14:47most efficient.
14:47He gives them that downfield punch.
14:50And if I'm thinking about, like, a type, it would have to be a guy that's got plenty of speed.
14:56Yeah, it's Josh Downs for me.
14:58That's the guy that I'd be interested in.
14:59And I think it's going to cost more to get Brian Thomas Jr., right?
15:04I think the Marvin Harrison deal sets a precedent there.
15:07And you've got San Francisco and that whole Mac Jones thing, right?
15:10Like, not that Mac Jones is the starter, but there's influence there.
15:13And then you've got Kansas City, right, that I think should be all over Brian Thomas Jr.
15:17I think someone is going to give a two for him.
15:18If you can, I mean, I'd rather give a two for Josh Downs, to be frank with you, but I
15:23don't think it's going to cost you a two.
15:25He's in a contract year, which I think helps the Bills.
15:28Because, all right, you get him for a third-round pick, and you probably get that third-round pick back
15:34in a comp pick, right?
15:36So it's a true rental, yeah, almost like a free rental.
15:39Yeah, it's a true rental.
15:39Yeah, and you get it back.
15:40You've got to wait a year.
15:41But, I mean, the Bills have no money to play with next offseason.
15:43I think you just leverage that opportunity and give yourself some juice this year.
15:47But, like you mentioned, that speed dynamic.
15:49And, you know, I know everyone's interested in Skylar Bell, and he's interesting.
15:52He has speed.
15:53But Downs is a better yak player.
15:55Downs is a better vertical player.
15:56Downs has better ball skills.
15:58So I think that juice adds another layer to this offense that has me pretty interested.
16:03The concern – his name's come up a bunch.
16:06I love Josh Downs coming out.
16:07My concern about that – it doesn't have to be a concern.
16:10Is he – would it be fair to call him an upgraded Shakir?
16:13And are they a little redundant for what they do, or would you just not worry about it?
16:18No, I think it's a good question, Jeremy.
16:19I think where Shakir is just a lot more of a traditional slot player where I think, you know,
16:25yards after catch, you know, he's going to work the middle of the field where I think
16:27Downs gives you true verticality, right?
16:30And then Shakir has speed too, but I think there's a better vertical receiving skill set
16:35with Josh Downs.
16:37And so, you know, look, I like the way that it would just build out your inventory, right?
16:42You have big physical receivers and Keyon Coleman and DJ Moore and you'll get Tyrell
16:47Shavers back and, hey, you want to go with speed and really get yourself into some matchup
16:51advantages, you have the opportunity to do that with a Josh Downs and with a Kilo Shakir.
16:57So I like how it diversifies the offense.
17:00Thanks, Joe.
17:01Thank you, guys.
17:02You know, everybody comes around to the receiver train.
17:04And Joe Marino of the Locked on Bills podcast, he and I will do a show with Jerry Ostrowski
17:09tomorrow on the Bills squad on YouTube.
17:11I know Jerry O's on the receiver.
17:12Listen, I have loved Josh Downs since North Carolina.
17:16He is a former future Bills receiver that I loved as a, can you get this guy in the third?
17:23Can you get this guy in the second or the third?
17:24This was probably before Shakir's breakout happened.
17:28Josh Downs would have been a add him to the room with Stephon Diggs in it kind of idea.
17:33I think that timeline, anyway, I love Downs.
17:37My concern would just be, I think he's just better than Shakir.
17:41Yeah.
17:42And you just go in.
17:44You could also, you want to do what, can we play a think about it game?
17:47Sure.
17:48Think about it like acquiring a receiver that makes $26 million a year.
17:52Because next year he will.
17:55Downs?
17:56Yeah.
17:57He'll make $20 million next year.
18:00I can see $20.
18:01Fine, not $26, $20.
18:03I can see $20.
18:03Think of it like a $20 million receiver.
18:07I like him a lot.
18:08The only question I would have is, can he play, does he have to play in the slot?
18:13Because in his entire career in Indy, he's almost exclusively played the slot.
18:18And I know going into this year, there was talk that they were going to start to expand that.
18:22That they felt he can do out on the perimeter and still get open and get down the field.
18:28And that's going, it's tough to know how that's going because the offense is so broken.
18:32Right?
18:33He actually is averaging a career high in air yards per attempt.
18:36It's 10.8, which is three yards higher than any other season.
18:40So they are throwing to him down the field more.
18:42But again, it's kind of tough to gauge because the Colts and Daniel Jones have been so bad.
18:47Matt Harmon, reception for reception, writes this on Downs.
18:50On last year.
18:51He's been pigeonholed as a slot-based option.
18:54Maybe that's right for him.
18:55And frankly, the fact he's been on and off the field consistently with injuries at his size, 5'9", 171,
19:00doesn't help the case.
19:02Needs more snaps.
19:03However, he looks bigger this offseason.
19:06And he says, I do think it's tough to rule out a slot-only player.
19:11Changing the course of their career to add more to their plate is a boundary option.
19:14As we just watched the season JSN had.
19:18Just like JSN, I have confidence Downs can do more than just play in the slot.
19:28Hit that horn, baby!
19:30What?
19:31JSN.
19:31I hear the next JSN.
19:33He's not the next JSN.
19:34Okay, but you want something else on...
19:36He's good.
19:36You want something else on Downs?
19:37He's a good player.
19:38Matt Harmon, whatever, tracks percentiles.
19:42How good are you at beating man zone and press?
19:44Yep.
19:44Downs is in the 96th percentile in press.
19:48That's pretty good.
19:49This is a player I've liked quite a bit.
19:52I would also say this.
19:53You want a little fantasy juice?
19:55Hmm.
19:56Go trade for Josh Downs in a league.
19:57Because if he's about to go to either of them, Holmes, I don't know about the Bills.
20:01Even to Pittsburgh.
20:02Rogers throws short all the time.
20:04That's the place where I feel like he'd be pigeonholed slot short.
20:08Yes.
20:08But from a fantasy standpoint...
20:09Here, here he would be more.
20:11...standpoint.
20:11Yeah.
20:12If you can go...
20:12A bunch of receptions.
20:13If you can go trade for Josh Downs, you can try and go get that guy.
20:15If he's about to be moved.
20:17Well, we definitely don't want Brandon Ayuk, right?
20:20Because there's news on him in the last 10 minutes.
20:22I saw that there's news on him.
20:23So, Ayuk has turned in his paperwork to be reinstated.
20:27He got a new agent.
20:28He got Rosenhaus.
20:29And so the Schefter report...
20:31This is funny.
20:31He will be reporting to the 49ers training facility on Friday.
20:35Great.
20:36And he's healthy and ready to get back on the field.
20:38Two problems with that.
20:39The Niners have said multiple times that he will never play for them again.
20:43Okay.
20:43So, I'm not sure he'll be allowed in the facility.
20:45And two, he has an active arrest warrant in Santa Clara County.
20:49For what?
20:49So, for going like 160 miles an hour.
20:52That'll go away in two seconds.
20:53But that's like a six-month-old arrest warrant.
20:55They'll know where he is.
20:56Great.
20:57And he'll get out on bail.
20:59And he'll pay a ticket.
21:00And he's doing what Hellebuck did.
21:01He's doing the Hellebuck.
21:02He's doing the, oh yeah?
21:03I'm going to show up there.
21:05I think he's going to get arrested.
21:06Well, we don't want you here.
21:08Anyway.
21:09Right.
21:10Cassandra climbing through the air vents to get back into his office.
21:12Hey guys, I'm back.
21:13Oh, all right.
21:14We got to cut this guy.
21:14They're going to cut him by Friday.
21:16Right.
21:17Yes.
21:19Ayuk.
21:20He'll get cut.
21:20Don't let that arrest warrant distract you, Joe.
21:24Sneaky Joe.
21:25From the fact that my dominant team in our Dynasty League still is holding on to Ayuk like a life
21:32preserver.
21:32I've noticed that.
21:33I have not let him go.
21:34You've been holding him.
21:37Because if he ever got his head on right again, why can't he be Antonio Brown, who comes back into
21:42the league, wins the Super Bowl.
21:44That happened.
21:45It did happen.
21:46He was good.
21:47Brady brought him back, won the Super Bowl, and then he crashed out.
21:52Yes.
21:52Because the crash out didn't take long after that.
21:55But they got him on the field just long enough.
21:57They got the Super Bowl.
21:59Yeah.
22:00Well, didn't he like, he lived at Brady's house, right?
22:02All right.
22:02Who was going to do that?
22:03Stafford?
22:05All right, Ayuk.
22:06Come on in.
22:06Let's go.
22:07I need 10 weeks.
22:09Josh doesn't want to live with Brady.
22:10He does not want to do that.
22:12Ayuk is phenomenal, but he's just, you know.
22:15He had five for 22 and a touchdown in the Super Bowl, Antonio Brown.
22:19There you go.
22:20When we get back, I have a very fun Josh Allen game to play.
22:25Okay?
22:26Okay.
22:27Into that.
22:27Do you want to play the game?
22:28Here's your homework assignment.
22:30Do this right now.
22:31I want you to search your Twitter for September 23rd, 2018.
22:39What did you tweet that day?
22:43September 23rd.
22:43September 23rd, 2018.
22:45If you were on Twitter back then, Owen, Joe Calle, I want you to do this.
22:48Search your Twitter, September 23rd, 2018.
22:50Let's go through them when we get back.
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