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William Branham Historical Research
  • 1 hour ago
John and Pia examine how spiritual warfare, prophetic intercession, and the pursuit of miraculous power can become tied to identity, status, and control. Pia reflects on her involvement with prayer movements associated with the New Apostolic Reformation and explains why their intense gatherings once offered her purpose, belonging, and emotional fulfillment.

They explore identity fusion, bounded choice, crowd psychology, religious hierarchy, and the personal cost of placing an organization’s mission above individual needs. Pia also shares how abuse and unresolved trauma affected her experience, why transparency matters, and what helped her recognize that leaving an unhealthy system was a real choice.

CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
05:12 Militant Intercession and Spiritual Warfare
13:30 Faith Healing, Marketing, and Transparency
19:31 Why Pia Joined the NAR Movement
25:48 Worship, Emotional Experiences, and Identity Fusion
31:15 How Spiritual Leaders Become Trapped by Their Own Identity
35:19 Gamifying Religion: Crowds, Status, and Influence
41:01 When the Mission Becomes More Important Than the Individual
46:35 Bounded Choice and Escaping an Abusive Marriage
53:04 What Genuine Pastoral Care Should Look Like
______________________
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Category

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Learning
Transcript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former member
00:46of the New Apostolic Reformation.
00:49Pio, it's good to be back and to talk about wizards and wizardry.
00:53If you had have told me when we began this journey that suddenly you would come out of
00:58the closet as you were a former wizard, I don't know if I would have believed you first
01:02off, but I don't know if I would have had the podcast.
01:05The funny thing about this is I have had a few wizards now who came on the podcast.
01:09You probably have heard them.
01:12And whenever I began this podcast journey, I never knew that this was a thing.
01:16I had never actually heard this term, spiritual warfare, and I had never heard intercessory
01:23prayers and demons and all of this stuff.
01:26The way this Lateran thing began, it was the formation of the five-fold ministry as a hierarchical
01:32pyramid with the apostle on the top, the prophet, and so on and so forth.
01:36But what's funny is most every church that's a five-fold ministry ignores all of the other
01:42four, it's whoever's the guy that's behind the pulpit, that's the one, and you go to
01:47this one, and he's the one that intercedes for you.
01:50But that was an implied thing.
01:52They did not turn it into a marketed thing.
01:55So what I came out of was actually the core of what you are going to be talking about, but
02:01it did not yet have the marketing engine.
02:03If you go back to our early podcast, it didn't have the system with all these gears and wheels
02:08and et cetera, and the real problem with all of this wizards and wizardry, it's kind of
02:14like Wizard of Oz.
02:15If you see the wizard behind the curtain, well, once you pull the curtain back, that
02:19person's not really a wizard.
02:20There's something going on here, and it's that lack of transparency that is really the
02:25problem.
02:26That's one of the reasons why in my podcast, you can go back through the blog, you can
02:31look in the history.
02:32Every once in a while, you'll scroll through the blog, and you'll see this part where it
02:35says, Correction and Apology, and I find something that I've made as a mistake, and I put it out
02:40there because it confused people so greatly.
02:45Why is John being transparent?
02:47I've never heard of transparency.
02:49That's because the wizard behind the curtain does not like transparency.
02:53And anyway, that's also going to tie into something we'll talk about today.
02:56So I'll let you introduce the podcast about wizards and wizardry and transparency.
03:02Very good, John.
03:04Well, I don't think anybody has ever called me a wizard.
03:08I would never call myself that.
03:11But in the context of what we're talking about, like you said, spiritual warfare, prophetic
03:18intercession, decreeing and declaring and taking down demonic strongholds, that actually
03:27is a very accurate term, if you do think of that, you know, Wizard of Oz, and how it was
03:37all trickery, right?
03:39Like he didn't have actual powers.
03:41Now, here's the interesting thing.
03:44Apparently, if you look at Wicked, you know, the very popular Broadway show that became a movie,
03:55the Green Witch, she actually had real powers.
04:00You know what I mean?
04:02The fake wizard in the Emerald City didn't, but she did.
04:07And why am I bringing that up?
04:09I actually believe that God does anoint us sometimes with the ability to pray for people and they
04:23do get healed.
04:24I need to say that because I have prayed for people and, you know, I'm not going to tell
04:31you how many times I would never tell you.
04:34Oh, yeah, I do it all the time, but I have experience praying for people and they did get
04:43well.
04:44Was it immediate?
04:46No, but I do believe that, you know, what the Bible says about God's healing power.
04:55Jesus did it all the time.
04:56So I just want to make sure your audience knows that where I stand is I do believe in miracles.
05:04I do believe in, you know, spiritual healing, but definitely not in the way that was prescribed
05:14by Cindy Jacobs in that 1994 book called, and I have to make sure that I say it correctly,
05:26Possessing the Gates of the Enemy, a Training Manual for Militant Intercessors.
05:32And that is what I thought I was.
05:36I thought I was a militant intercessor, not a wizard, a militant intercessor.
05:41And I was proud of that title.
05:45Now I'm scared of it.
05:47Anytime I see the word militant, you know, red flags come up.
05:51But back in the day when I was in my 20s, I love to call myself a radical, on fire,
06:01militant,
06:02you know, soldier in God's last day's army.
06:06I really didn't think there was anything wrong with that.
06:09And so, yeah, let me let me just recap, I guess, very, very briefly where we were at
06:17in our last podcast, I was trained, so I guess you would call them, you know, the two houses
06:24of wizardry.
06:27There was one, the house of Lou Engel, and his main headquarters back in the day in the
06:3590s was in a building called Mott Auditorium.
06:39And we were his motley crew, and that was in Pasadena, California.
06:44And then Cindy Jacobs had her own house, and it was located in Little Tokyo, which was right
06:53next to where the Azusa Mission House was located.
07:00So, both these individuals, I used to call them Papa Lou.
07:06I don't think I ever called Cindy Mama Cindy.
07:10There was just something about her voice that did irritate me.
07:15But I did have to, you know, acknowledge the fact that when it came to these kinds of subjects,
07:25she was definitely one of the experts.
07:29So, I did read her books.
07:32Lou Engel actually never wrote a book.
07:36He might have now, but back in the day, he was not much of a writer.
07:41But he did preach a lot, you know, in his rocking and, you know, rocking body and raspy voice.
07:50So, Lou Engel was my former co-pastor.
07:54He was the founder of two fasting and prayer movements.
07:59The first was called The Call.
08:02And this is where I want to be transparent, John.
08:06Pia Hugo does make mistakes.
08:08If my history, my former history students were watching me now, they'd be like,
08:14Oh, no, like Mrs. Hugo, you always said, accuracy.
08:19It's all about the accuracy.
08:21So, I was not accurate when I said that the call started in 1990.
08:31That wouldn't even have been possible because the Toronto blessing from, you know, from Toronto
08:41did not hit our little Mott Auditorium until 1994.
08:49So, the actual start of the call after I looked it up was the year 2000, which made a lot
08:59more sense.
09:00So, anybody who has been a part of the call or the send, I apologize.
09:08So, the call was Lou Engel's call to all the militant intercessors.
09:17Most of us were in our 20s, somewhere in their early 30s.
09:24But we were the young ones that Lou Engel said was the hope of the nation, right?
09:34We were the hope, not just of our little city of Pasadena, where we would, like, march around the city
09:42hall.
09:43We were the hope of Los Angeles, the hope of the state of California, the hope of the nation, and,
09:50in fact, the hope of the whole world.
09:53All that was put in our tiny little shoulders.
09:57It is up to you to make it happen.
10:00And I'll get more into that later, how that pressure really affected all of us at such a young age,
10:09not in a good way.
10:13So, he started with a call, and then 19 years later, in 2019, he said,
10:20Okay, I think I've called out enough young people.
10:26Now that you have all gathered, and I am talking, there are, I'm sure there are millions who still follow
10:34Lou Engel to this day.
10:36You know, I would venture to say I might be the only one among my circle of friends, anyway, who's
10:48actually saying anything against the almighty Lou Engel.
10:52That's how esteemed he is.
10:54You know, you don't hear an exposure podcast on him alone.
10:59Like, he might be, like, tossed in with all the other Gnar, you know, clowns in the circus act.
11:07But I think he's still quite well liked, is how I'm going to put it.
11:15But anyway, that's how many people, like, millions of young people, that's how many people he's able to gather at
11:23these stadium events, you know, thousands.
11:27And 19 years after starting the call, he said, It's time to send.
11:33Now I'm going to send you out.
11:34Now that I've trained you, now that you all know how to decree and declare over cities, now you go
11:42to your respective, like, stations, right?
11:47And I'll be honest, I took that seriously.
11:54And one of the reasons why I'm here in the Philippines is because I thought, OK, well, this is my
12:00station, right?
12:02This is where I grew up.
12:03I must be called to the Philippines.
12:06Now, whether or not it was really God telling me, Pia, the Philippines is your, you know, is your assignment.
12:18Or was I just kind of swayed by, you know, the send, that movement?
12:26I can't tell you, John, right?
12:28All I know is that I'm here and it worked for me, that part anyway.
12:35But I've heard of stories from missionaries who were sent to different places and it did not go well.
12:48We weren't really trained.
12:50We weren't really trained in what to expect in the missions field.
12:55I mean, that's a whole different subject matter.
13:00You know, one of these days I'll do a podcast on my experience as a YWAM-er because I was
13:06also part of YWAM.
13:08I mean, these two are in bed together, right?
13:11NAR and YWAM.
13:13So, but anyway, so that's Lou Angle's prayer movement.
13:22The call, which started in the year 2000, and the send, which started in 2019.
13:29You said in the beginning that you still believe in healing and prayer.
13:34Well, if you're a Christian and you read the Bible, it's hard not to because it's written plainly in the
13:39Bible.
13:40You can ask God for prayer, for forgiveness and healing, and God will forgive you and will heal you.
13:46The problem is they have taken it to a new level where it's more of a marketing tool.
13:52Come to our group and God will heal you.
13:54Well, what about the Christian who's in the other group?
13:56That's really the problem here, and I know we're on a Harry Potter theme, but it's more like Field of
14:02Dreams.
14:02If you build it, they will come.
14:05In other words, if you build the building, if you get the right marketing, you get the right emotions, you
14:10get the right music, they'll all come.
14:13And once they come, now that's it.
14:16And you start to look at it like we're the ones.
14:18We're the chosen ones.
14:19We're the elite ones.
14:20Well, what about the people who aren't part of the chosen ones?
14:23I know that there's this well-overused meme that goes out there, why don't the divine healers go into the
14:30hospital and just empty them?
14:32I know that there are theological problems with that statement, but if you really consider what that meme is trying
14:39to say, it's why are you containing yourself like this?
14:43If you really called to preach the gospel, why not go out to the people who need the gospel?
14:47But it turns into a gospel for the saved.
14:50And if you're part of the group, it's a healing for the saved.
14:53It's not a healing for those people who really need it.
14:56Well, what about the people who do really need it in some of the countries who have never heard the
15:00name Jesus?
15:01Would not it be better to go to those people and tell them about Jesus and bring them into the
15:06healing?
15:06But when you create a ministry that is based off of this type of wizardry, you have that image to
15:13uphold.
15:14And if that image is out among the people in foreign nations who might learn that you're not really who
15:22you say you are, your whole thing implodes.
15:25And for me, that's really the problem.
15:27If you go back to the Wizard of Oz statement that I said at the beginning, I know I'm jumping
15:30from theme to theme here.
15:32It really is the curtain whenever you go outside of your building.
15:36If as long as you can stay in this building and you can keep the emotion, the hype, the marketing,
15:40all of these things to keep the people entertained, that is your curtain.
15:45And once you step out of that curtain, you're no longer the wizard.
15:48Yeah, I think that's a very good point, especially when you are out in the missions field, like in a
15:56foreign nation like I am.
15:59When you over promise and when you make claims that you cannot back up, then the local people will easily
16:09run you out of town because, you know, they can spot a faker, you know, very much more easily than
16:19if you were, let's say, in Los Angeles.
16:21And, you know, these prayer movements have been entrenched on our land, right?
16:31Like the Azusa Street stuff that you talk about since 1906.
16:38It's a culture now in Los Angeles, right?
16:41Like it's not shocking to go into a charismatic church in L.A. and see people falling down and speaking
16:50in tongues and, you know, deliverance going on.
16:55That's the norm.
16:56But when you go to a foreign country and you go to a village that's never seen any of that
17:03stuff and you start making claims that I can heal everyone here and I can do this and that.
17:11And mind you, these people don't have a lot of money.
17:14You know, you're there not to take money from them.
17:16You're there to serve them and hopefully meet their physical needs.
17:23So it just doesn't work.
17:25You're correct.
17:25It just doesn't work when you go to places where their critical thinking faculties are still intact and they're looking
17:37at you with very skeptical eyes.
17:41And that's why for me, you know, I am all about transparency.
17:46I'm all about, you know, saying the truth and nothing but the truth.
17:51So help me God.
17:52So, again, I apologize for the confusion in the dates.
17:58Now that I've cleared that, my conscience is clear.
18:01Let's move on to Cindy Jacobs.
18:04So Cindy Jacobs and her husband, they started this prayer movement called the Generals International.
18:13She is also a leading figure in NAR, New Apostolic Reformation.
18:18And like I said, she wrote the manual.
18:21She's been writing manuals.
18:23She is a prolific writer.
18:24So she's got many, many books out there all on demonology, how to spot certain types of territorial spirits, what
18:34prayers to pray.
18:36Like she has books on specific, like very long prayers.
18:41And it's almost, it's like the chants, you know, like, again, going back to either the Wizard of Oz or
18:51any other, you know, kind of book that has witches in it.
18:58They always have this book that has all the chants and the spells.
19:05And now I look at those manuals that Cindy wrote, and it's kind of like that, you know, it's like,
19:13oh, you want to get rid of this territorial spirit?
19:16This is the prayer to pray.
19:19And now I look back on all that, John, and it is quite ridiculous how I bought into all that.
19:30And so I want to actually spend most of the time today on the why.
19:37Like, why would a pretty smart 19-year-old college student like myself fall for a movement like this?
19:54So is that okay, John?
19:56That's where we're going today.
19:58Yes.
20:00So I think I've told you, you know, a few times now that I met Che and Sue Ahn, who
20:08are, you know, super leaders, super apostles in the NARM movement, in 1986, when I was 19 years old.
20:19And I had just met Sue, Sue's brother, and we were engaged very quickly.
20:27And I feel when I reflect on what drew me so quickly and so strongly into all this magic,
20:43it's because I was very, very desperate.
20:49You know, I've mentioned the fact that I come from a sexually abusive background.
20:59My oldest brother took his own life when I was 18.
21:03So when we came here to the United States, and I was 19 years old, and, you know, I was
21:12lonely, I was vulnerable, I was so broken.
21:15And when they came in telling me, Jesus is the answer, now that statement is the most truthful statement ever.
21:27Jesus is the answer.
21:29He is the answer to all of Earth's problems.
21:32But it gets very, very dangerous when you say Jesus and, right, it's a Jesus plus, Jesus plus wizardry.
21:47You know, Jesus plus, you know, understanding spiritual warfare, you know, because if you don't, then you're easy prey for
21:59the demons that are all around us.
22:01And so you very quickly start feeling almost paranoid, like I got to be an expert then, right?
22:12I got to know my stuff.
22:15So, and here's the other thing I wanted to say, went along with the heavy sell of being a part
22:29of this movement.
22:31They attach so much meaning to it.
22:35See, it's really the meaning that you put into their words.
22:41So they were saying, come join us.
22:45This is, you know, a cutting edge type of movement.
22:50You know, this is where God is at.
22:53Like we are God's chosen apostles and prophets.
22:57So when you buy into all of that, there's a term in psychology.
23:05It's called identity fusion.
23:07So that's what happened.
23:09I quickly saw how this could actually give me new meaning, you know, because I had feelings of worthlessness.
23:19I had feelings of confusion and just being lost, you know, after coming here to the United States at such
23:27a young age and still so broken inside.
23:31So I just latched on to this thing that was so exciting.
23:37Like Che On is probably still, I consider one of the most charismatic people I've ever met.
23:44You know, he has this larger than life persona.
23:47And, you know, talking about transparency, obviously he wasn't transparent, right?
23:51But it just seemed like everything he said was the gospel truth and he was hearing from God directly.
24:00So between him and Lou Angle and Cindy Jacobs, I just couldn't resist.
24:08So identity fusion, for those in your audience who may not have heard of that, it is when one's personal
24:15identity becomes deeply fused with the identity and the mission of the group.
24:22So it's no longer, you know, my vision, you know, when Lou Angle starts talking about a vision of the
24:37end times, you know, Joel's army, you know, an army full of Nazarites willing to lay everything down for Jesus.
24:46It no longer is Lou's vision.
24:48It becomes our vision.
24:50It becomes my, my PS vision.
24:53So what do I do?
24:55I tell my friends about it, right?
24:58You're not just joining a church.
25:00What do you mean?
25:03You know, like, well, it's not just a Sunday morning service.
25:08And they're, they look at me like, what do you mean?
25:12And, and, and then I have to go into this whole explanation.
25:15Well, you know, we have prayer meetings that last like, you know, three to five hours sometimes with worship and,
25:24you know, and to most thinking people, they're like, well, I, I'm not interested.
25:30Like, who wants to be in a room with other young people that really don't know what they're doing for
25:37three to five hours?
25:39Does God expect us to worship him for that long?
25:43I'm not going to answer that, John.
25:45I am not qualified to answer that.
25:48But that's what we did.
25:50And that's what we were told we had to do to get into, like, the zone.
25:55Like, there's almost like this, this, you know, when you chant, you know, it's like meditation.
26:02When you meditate, you know, you, you, you say this mantra and you say it over and over.
26:08And it gets you in a very, like, almost lulled, hypnotic state.
26:17And all of a sudden you're, you're going with the music and everything starts to feel so surreal.
26:26You are now in a higher spiritual plane.
26:31And it was very, for me as a 20-something, looking for identity and purpose and a sense of belonging.
26:41It was very, I don't know, just filled me up.
26:49Satisfying, I guess is a good word.
26:53It just filled me up.
26:56It filled up the emptiness, right?
26:58And when we had really great speakers and really great worship leaders, I mean, the dopamine levels were, like, off
27:07the charts, right?
27:09It's like going to a never-ending party.
27:12We would literally call these Holy Ghost parties.
27:16And we would literally get drunk in the spirit.
27:20And we would be laughing and rolling on the ground.
27:25And I thought it was just great fun.
27:28You know, I never went to bars.
27:32I never, I never tried, you know, any type of illicit substances.
27:40So, for me, like, you know, that, that verse, you know, that, from Paul's words, don't be drunk with wine,
27:51be drunk in the spirit.
27:53Oh, that was a favorite line.
27:54Like, hey, here, have some, you know, and we, you know, we literally pretend to be chugging down the Holy
28:02Spirit wine.
28:03And then we'd just get hit with holy laughter.
28:06Like, I cannot explain to you why that was.
28:10All I knew was that identity fusion, this is no longer Lou's vision, Che's vision, Cindy Jacobs' vision.
28:21And this was now mine.
28:22And it was not just his victory, her victory.
28:27No, it was our victory, right?
28:29This was our fight against the demons and the witches and the warlocks.
28:34You know, even though, like you said, we were probably delving in witchcraft ourselves, but we didn't know that.
28:43So, we were going after the evil witches and, you know, the green, the green monsters.
28:49And they're the ones out there that we need to defeat.
28:54And, and by golly, by the blood of Jesus, we're going to triumph.
29:00So, that was the mood.
29:03That was the appeal.
29:05And when you have thousands of young people, you know, in a rally and you're all yelling, yeah, Jesus, Jesus,
29:15you know, like, like, like, like Jesus was running for a president.
29:20And, um, it does something to, to you emotionally, mentally, your body felt the change, the shift, you know, they
29:33call it shifting the atmosphere.
29:35You literally felt it in the air.
29:38It was electric.
29:40It was like energy, high energy.
29:45And for, for a while, John, I thought I found it, right?
29:52This is it.
29:53I'm, I'm going to give everything up.
29:55And I did, like, as soon as I graduated from college, I turned down all those lucrative offers to work
30:04in a bank, in a financial firm.
30:06Like, I was going to be a financial analyst with my degree, but nope, I decided I was going to
30:12work for this, these organizations.
30:16Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
30:24reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
30:29You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
30:37On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
30:45John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
30:51You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
30:57If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
31:04top.
31:04And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
31:10watching.
31:11On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
31:16I am so glad that you brought up Identity Fusion.
31:19There are so many different angles that we could actually spin off podcasts on just that subject alone.
31:25But I'm going to take the one that Bob Scott and I would gravitate towards, and that's think about the
31:32leadership with Identity Fusion.
31:34Often you're thinking about the people in the pews, but think about the leader.
31:38A lot of times there's this mistaken thought that this person just decided he was going to be a fake
31:44apostle.
31:45I've listened to some of these guys, you've probably seen these guys, the witch hunters on the internet that say
31:50all of this NAR stuff, these are just people who are out to get other people.
31:54They're fake apostles.
31:56But it doesn't really start that way.
31:58If you know the backgrounds on how these people operate, they really believed what it was that they started out
32:04to do.
32:05But think of this.
32:06So you're in a system that is telling you that you can do this magical thing.
32:12You're going to one day become the wizard.
32:14And I'm using that loosely because they don't use the word wizard.
32:18But think of it in that term, right?
32:21One day you too can have this magical power.
32:24Well, then suddenly you pray for a sick person and they get better.
32:29No longer is it you thinking, oh, my gosh, God just healed the sick person.
32:34It's you thinking, oh, my gosh, look what I just did.
32:37Well, then another happens.
32:39And, you know, if you are in a group of 5,000 people, even in just an ordinary setting like
32:47there were studies of this with the Beatles.
32:51There were people who were getting healed in the Beatles concerts.
32:54Oh, my goodness.
32:55But it doesn't really have to do with them having a superpower so much as it is if you get
33:01that number of people.
33:02There's just going to be a percentage of people that get better no matter what.
33:05There is a great documentary if you want to learn more about this.
33:09This man named Darren Brown, who was an atheist, goes and I think it's called Miracles for Sale.
33:15I think you can find it on YouTube.
33:17But he sets up the stage where he's pretending to be a faith healer.
33:20And there are people who are coming up saying that man has the power of God.
33:24And at the end of the session, he tells everybody, now, I want to show you that this isn't what
33:30you think.
33:31You don't need to look at these stage personas.
33:33And he said, I'm an atheist.
33:35And he went on.
33:36And he was fully transparent, which is kind of odd when you weigh that in the balance.
33:41But the way that it starts is that you feel this power, and the power, you're looking to yourself.
33:47You're not looking to God that's healing.
33:50And, again, the numbers add to the benefit of this.
33:55But then something happens because within them, they feel like, I can teach other people to do this.
34:01And they really think that they're doing God's work.
34:03It's not that there may be a few handful of people that are just evil intent.
34:08But for the most part, I would say that at least the people that I knew, they were really good
34:13people.
34:13But they were doing bad things without understanding that they were because of that system and that type of identity
34:22crisis that you have when you suddenly realize that you are different than other humans.
34:28And, really, that's what they start to think.
34:31I'm different than other humans.
34:32So, this five-fold ministry pyramid is the perfect breeding ground for that type of mentality.
34:39You look at it like, this is a hierarchy.
34:41I want to go to the top of the pyramid.
34:43I just did this wonderful thing.
34:44This person is healed because of me.
34:46What do I have to do to get to that next step in the ladder?
34:48And then you go to the next step and next step.
34:51And by the end of this, you're a super apostle.
34:53You've got a mega church.
34:54Everybody's coming because that guy can heal people or whatever is the gift that they claim.
34:59And all the while, the person in the back of their mind, they know that something's not right.
35:05They know that I'm no superstar.
35:07I'm nothing like this.
35:08So, they start to put that curtain around them.
35:11And once that curtain wraps around them, it's really hard to get out of this.
35:15So, in effect, they create their own prisons.
35:18Yes, perfect.
35:20That is a perfect segue to where I wanted to go, which is when you gamify the religion.
35:27You've used that term, and I looked it up because that's what I do.
35:35There's mass tracking of attendance goals for stadium-wide rallies.
35:40So, that's where, you know, that's part of the tactic, right?
35:46If you want to keep going up the hierarchy, you got to attract larger and larger and larger crowds.
35:54If you are a little prophet that can only attract 50 people in your little church, then you're probably going
36:06to just stay at that low level.
36:10But once you get really good at it, and you really know how to market yourself, and now you're putting
36:16up, you know, YouTube videos of you, you know, laying hands on people, and they're falling down like flies, and
36:24they're getting healed, and you're putting on, you know, like having them share their testimonies.
36:30Maybe it's the same person in every meeting saying the same thing, but, you know, they don't know that.
36:36So, you start to build your reputation.
36:41Now you're attracting hundreds of people, then soon a thousand, and et cetera.
36:46So, that's part of it, right?
36:49They always track how many people, and they always exaggerate how many people are there in the crowd.
36:57It is never enough to just, like, have a hundred, right?
37:00It's got to be the thousands, the tens of thousands, the hundreds of thousands.
37:05And then, of course, you're using celebrity worship leaders.
37:09Let's not forget the musicians, and this is your area, John.
37:15I'm sure you've done other podcasts on worship music.
37:23I am not a worship leader.
37:26I can sing in a choir, but that's not my area of expertise.
37:33But I do know that definitely music plays a big, big role in this, in this gamifying of the religion.
37:42And then there's crowd, just simple crowd psychology techniques, as you said.
37:47This atheist used it, you know.
37:49It's out there.
37:50Anybody can master it, just like anybody can learn how to do magic tricks, you know.
37:58Even a five-year-old.
37:59You give that little five-year-old that little simple magic trick book, and voila, you've got a wizard in
38:08the making.
38:10But the thing about the crowd psychology techniques is that it really does create this energetic, very, you know, high
38:26dopamine levels, like, type of atmosphere.
38:30And the thing is, it feels anointed, right?
38:35It feels like revival.
38:39And so, when you're raised like this, when you feel, when you're told, not feel, but just when you're told,
38:49this is where we're going, you know.
38:54This is what we're aiming for, then if you're not using your critical thinking skills, then you're going to think
39:02that, oh, okay, we just need to build bigger and bigger crowds.
39:06We just need to keep hitting more and more cities.
39:10But like we said last time, and then what, right?
39:14You keep going higher and higher, and then what, right?
39:18You take over the world, you know, dominion theology.
39:23You conquer all seven mountains.
39:26All right.
39:28Congratulations.
39:28Game over.
39:30Let's start a new game, right?
39:32Let's hit reset.
39:34Let's do it all over again, because that was so much fun.
39:36And you can have fun talking about it, like we are, John.
39:41But I'm going to get more serious.
39:44It would be one thing if everybody knew that it was a game.
39:49When you, you know, when you go to an arcade and you play these, you know, I used to be
39:54a, you know, here's one of my secrets.
39:58So, talking about transparency.
40:01Have you heard of Ms. Pac-Man?
40:04Absolutely.
40:05Back in the 80s.
40:05Oh, I was a Ms. Pac-Man queen.
40:08So many quarters.
40:10You know, back in the day, you didn't have, you didn't have phones.
40:13You had to actually put a quarter in these arcade games.
40:18And, oh, one quarter would take me to like, I don't know, six, seven levels.
40:24You know, I considered myself really good at this game.
40:27But I knew it was a game.
40:31Yeah, I spent probably hundreds of quarters.
40:38And I spent many hours that I should have been spending studying for my college exams.
40:46But it was, it was a sacrifice I was willingly making because I had so much fun playing the game.
41:01That's one thing if you know that you're part of a game.
41:04It's totally another if you actually believe that this is real life.
41:09If you're not pretending, you really are fighting demons, you really are saving cities, you really are hastening the return
41:20of Jesus Christ.
41:21If you believe all of those things like I did, then it becomes very, very serious.
41:30And you use all your mental faculties to try to win the game.
41:40And it's all about the team, right?
41:43It's all about winning the game for the team.
41:46And what happens is that your individual needs are completely ignored.
41:53So let's talk about a soccer game.
41:58And you twisted your ankle, but you're the star player.
42:03Sometimes you have to play on a broken, you know, well, not a broken, but like a sprained ankle.
42:10And that hurts.
42:12But you keep going.
42:14Why?
42:14Because it's all about winning and it's all about the team.
42:20So for me, as most of your audience knows, I was in an abusive marriage.
42:26The whole time I was part of these NAR churches from 1986 to 1996, that 10-year period when I
42:38was part of Che On's church.
42:42Um, I was also married to his wife's brother.
42:50And there was severe abuse going on at home.
42:54And it got to the point where just like the player with the sprained ankle, I couldn't keep playing, right?
43:05The pain was too much.
43:07And I went to Che, I still remember, I went to Che and I told him that I had been
43:14sexually abused as a child.
43:17And then later on, and then later on as a teenager, and then about my brother taking his own life.
43:23He had never known these things before.
43:26Because again, you know, when you're in a crowd of like 10,000, John, most of the time the pastor
43:34doesn't even know you exist.
43:38So why would you tell anyone your deep, dark secrets?
43:43You can just take on a new identity, right?
43:46Now, now you are a wizard in the making.
43:50And that's your new identity.
43:52That's, that's, you have been so fused with the goals and the visions of the, of the group.
43:59That your own goals, your own dreams are forgotten.
44:04So when I told Che about my traumatic past, he had never heard that before.
44:12I'm not saying he didn't show me compassion.
44:15He did.
44:17But his solution was, you know, just forgive, right?
44:23Just forgive those guys.
44:25And let's keep going.
44:27Because you're one of the leaders.
44:30And you can't slow down now, Pia.
44:34Well, but I'm, I have a sprained ankle, right?
44:38I can barely walk.
44:40And he's like, no, I need you to run.
44:42I need you to keep running.
44:45You know, you're too valuable.
44:46And I hear this all the time.
44:48You are too valuable to the organization.
44:51So as much as we see that emotionally you're, you know, you're suffering, but just, just cover it with the
45:04blood of Jesus and get over it and keep going.
45:09Right?
45:11That's the message I got, that I had to keep going.
45:15And that's where I think it gets very, very sad, very quickly.
45:24All of a sudden, those meetings where you would get your, you know, your spiritual high.
45:31All of those prayer rallies, prayer marches, you know, decreeing and declaring and taking down those demonic strongholds over cities.
45:48It doesn't feel as fun anymore, John, because you know how to play your part.
45:59You know, you know what's expected of you, but your heart is no longer in it because your heart is
46:09breaking.
46:10Your heart is breaking because of personal needs that are not being met.
46:17And so for me, the facade lasted for 10 long years.
46:24You know, I played the game so well that I was able to fake it for 10 years until I
46:33couldn't anymore.
46:35And, um, yeah, so, so I, I, I want to bring up another, um, another term and then I want
46:44to give it back to you.
46:45It's called bounded choice.
46:47It's when you're still free to choose, but the cultic system makes you think there's only one choice that any
46:55religious, righteous, faithful Christian, um, who loves Jesus above all else would make.
47:02So you think you have the free will to do what, you know, what you want to do, but because
47:11you have been so brainwashed, you have been so, you know, um, fused with your group, you feel like the
47:20only choice you do have is to do whatever they say.
47:24Okay. So when Che told me, well, you need, you need to stay married, you know, I mean, that's what
47:31the Bible says.
47:33God hates divorce. You don't, you don't want to disappoint God, do you?
47:37And, and besides, you know, um, your husband's going to change. Don't worry.
47:42You know, Jesus will change him. And, and the two of you, you are destined.
47:46And that's a word again, a loaded word. You are destined for this Pia, you know, you're like Queen Esther.
47:53You were, you were made for such a time as this.
47:57And, you know, you're going to lead your, your husband, you know, by your godly behavior and he's going to
48:04change.
48:04And the two of you are going to be leaders in this movement and blah, blah, blah.
48:09And it got to the point when I was in it long enough, like I didn't care anymore.
48:17I didn't care anymore. Like, um, are you, are you saying that the only choice I have is to stay
48:24in my abusive marriage and be killed and maybe see my kids also be bodily harmed?
48:35And that's when I, I no longer was willing to play the game.
48:40Like, no, I, I really do think now that there, there is a choice.
48:45And if you're telling me that the other choice is I am out of God's will forever, if I get
48:50divorced, then I'm going to pick that.
48:53I'll pick that because I'll take my chances with this, with this, you know, godless existence.
49:02And, and, you know, and I, I want, I just, I want to end it by saying, thank goodness, thank
49:09goodness that the God that he told me about, the God that he said would forever keep me out of
49:16his will is not the real God.
49:19God. And I didn't have to, you know, face a godless existence. I mean, I met the real God. I
49:28met the real love that I was always looking for after, after I left the movement.
49:34As you know, I try to avoid theology and try not to get preachy because it's not me. I'm not
49:40called to do that.
49:42But this is one of my buttons that you pressed and I can't, I can't contain.
49:47I've told you my story. I, I suffered greatly. I would not be alive if not for a cousin who,
49:54who had the cowboy religion.
49:56He said, love God, love your neighbor who's not trying to kill you and be kind to animals. That was
50:00his philosophy.
50:03And all the while, I'm in a movement that is not loving the neighbor.
50:09And I could not reconcile that. He had left the group. He had, it's a long story, which I won't
50:15get into, but he had left the group for a reason that was a very good reason, actually.
50:20But he wasn't part of the group. And here's a person who truly loved the people that he was around.
50:26Everybody loved him. He died during COVID and it ripped my heart out. He was my best friend.
50:33At his funeral, everybody's testifying this, this person loved everybody.
50:38And he came out of a group that really did not love anybody.
50:42And I, I got to thinking about that years later before he died, as I'm processing all of this, whenever
50:49I was making my exit out, I, like you said, I'm a musician.
50:52I'm a songwriter. I kept having these songs coming just left and right song after song.
50:57I've mentioned this before. Why are we preaching to save the saved? Why are we not going to save the
51:01lost?
51:02The problem is this, and it goes back to everything that we've said in this podcast.
51:07Once you wrap yourself in that identity where you believe you're something more than a human, that's where the problem
51:15begins.
51:16Because you can be vague. I can give a vague prophecy and people can say, oh my gosh, that's exactly
51:23what I've been praying for.
51:25Because it's just vague enough they can connect with it.
51:27But what about that one person that needs something specific?
51:30What about that person who comes to the pastor thinking they're going to be a pastor?
51:36Thinking they're going to help lead them to the solution to their problem, what they desperately need?
51:41Well, if you do that, you have to look behind the curtain.
51:45And that's really the problem.
51:47Once they get to that level, inwardly, I know people who have risen that ladder.
51:52I know inwardly they are or were a good person at one point, but they have to mentally shut off
51:59the people who need the help the most.
52:02Because you can't be that wizard for real.
52:04It just doesn't work.
52:06Yes, you can pray to God.
52:07Yes, you can do all the things the Bible says.
52:09But in the end, you have to connect to the person who really needs help.
52:13And there has to be honesty and transparency.
52:17There are truly people that they're desperately needing help that they may never get.
52:22And a good pastor will help them through this problem and say, I'm very sorry you're in this situation.
52:27This may be your situation.
52:30How can we help you with your situation?
52:33That was the part that was missing.
52:35How can you help the person who's in need if you can't be the wizard?
52:39And, again, I don't want to be preachy, but that's my button.
52:43Whenever you're taking people that really need your help and you're not helping them, you're doing the opposite of what
52:51the Bible says.
52:51You're doing the opposite of the gospel.
52:53You're actually in a religion that's no better than any of the ancient mythologies that were oppressing their people.
53:00And, honestly, that's part of the reason I do what I do.
53:04Yeah, and you're doing a great job, John.
53:06And I'm sure you've already helped countless of individuals, including myself.
53:13And I want to go back to what I was saying, you know, that little prophet, pastor with a little
53:20church with maybe just 50 people.
53:24Now I think that's actually maybe a little too much.
53:29You know, like anywhere from 30 to 50, I think, is a good size.
53:36Because how can you as a pastor, unless you have, you know, like a team of pastors.
53:43But let's say you're just one, you know, one pastor in one small church and you've got 30 to 50.
53:54I think that's about right, you know, for you to be able to get to know each one personally.
54:01You know their names.
54:02You know their stories.
54:04You're tracking with them, right?
54:06You know their kids.
54:09And the kids grow up in this church.
54:12And because you're a loving pastor, they don't feel any compulsion to leave, you know?
54:21And maybe you even are the ones who, you're the one who officiates their wedding and then they raise their
54:29kids.
54:30Like that's how it used to be, I'm guessing, right?
54:34Back in the day, like one little country church and the whole town would go to that church.
54:41And I don't see anything wrong at all with that model.
54:46I think it probably looks a lot more like what the churches were back during Paul's time.
54:58Yeah, there was that day when 3,000 were added to the church.
55:02But I highly doubt if all 3,000 stayed under one roof and there was only one pastor.
55:09Like, I don't know.
55:09The Bible doesn't say that, right?
55:11But even Moses, okay, let's go back to the Old Testament.
55:16Moses, with the million Israelites that he had to care for, begged the Lord for a strategy.
55:22And he said, yep, just divide it up, you know, ask your father-in-law.
55:26And there was a system in place that worked.
55:31And my point is, when you have like a one-loo angle and sure, you've got, like you said, middle
55:42-tier people.
55:43But I don't know if they're trained in knowing what to do either, right?
55:49With serious mental and emotional issues.
55:53So, you've got these thousands of young people flocking around this one man.
56:00Well, what happens, yeah, when their hearts break because of personal trauma?
56:09And here you are as a coach.
56:11You're blowing your whistle.
56:12Like, come on, you know, let's run harder.
56:15Let's keep going, you know, and don't mind the fact that you're all running on a sprained ankle.
56:23You know, that's my thing.
56:25And so, I'm glad I'm able to share my own personal story, John.
56:30I'm not a preacher myself.
56:34I just really care about people who've been hurt, people who've been abused by systems.
56:43And, you know, I just hope if I can reach even one person who can relate to my story.
56:53And especially that one person who's maybe still undecided and they're, like, right there at the door, like, should I
57:02stay or should I go, right?
57:05My, and maybe you're limping by now, right?
57:09You've got a sprained ankle.
57:10So, my advice is get a crutch to help you limp your way out, but definitely go in the direction
57:20of going further away than staying in an institution that doesn't really care about you, that only cares about, you
57:31know, the almighty dollar.
57:35And, yeah, and it's, sure, you've already invested so much, but if you stay any longer, you may actually lose
57:46yourself in the end.
57:48Absolutely.
57:50I'm so glad you're doing this.
57:51Thank you so much for doing this with me today.
57:54Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
57:58You can find us at william-branham.org and piahugoministries.com.
58:02For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to
58:08the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
58:40Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:40Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:43Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:46Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:46Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:49Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:49Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:51Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:51Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:52Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:52Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:54Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:57Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

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