- hace 13 horas
La magistrada Julieta Lemaitre Ripoll, integrante de la Sala de Reconocimiento de Verdad de la Jurisdicción Especial para la Paz (JEP), ha estado en medio de los cuestionamientos relacionados con la investigación que ha adelantado en contra de la antigua guerrilla de las Farc. La togada habló con El Espectador sobre los señalamientos en su contra y dijo que se trata de una estrategia contra la justicia transicional.
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00:11During the last few weeks, the Special Jurisdiction for Peace, the JEP, has been at the center of the talks
00:16in the country.
00:18First, because of the discussion of its budget for the year 2027, then because of two projects that seek to reform the Constitution
00:24to change some of its powers and the scope of its rulings
00:28and now because of some accusations against officials and magistrates of the transitional justice system.
00:33One of the people who has been questioned during the last few days of that instance is Magistrate Julieta Lemetre
00:38Ripoll,
00:39member of the Truth Recognition Chamber of the JEP and who has led the investigations against
00:44the former FARC guerrillas.
00:46The viewer joins us for interviews. Judge, thank you for being here.
00:50Thank you.
00:52Okay, let's start with the following. Judge, Senator María Clara Posada recently published some videos of closed hearings.
01:01at the start of the process against the last secretary of the FARC for the kidnapping cases in which
01:05Rodrigo Londoño,
01:06Timochenko, who was once known as Timochenko, denied torturing the kidnapped individuals and spoke of their safety.
01:13not to go to jail
01:14After the peace agreement and while under the Special Jurisdiction for Peace, what really happened?
01:20in those hearings?
01:21That was in 2019. It was the first proceeding carried out at the JEP. At that time we didn't even have
01:29a room to do it.
01:31We're under enormous pressure. Nobody has ever done this before. What we were doing,
01:37We were, because they are basically interrogation proceedings, we were conducting interrogations in a context of high tension.
01:46Neither Iván Márquez nor Romaña had yet gone into dissent. It was that moment.
01:53Santrich had been captured. The Attorney General's Office was in Santrich's prison.
02:01We went there to film the version as well. It was a time of very high tension in the peace process.
02:08We decided in the room that we were going to start, that we were going to start making covers, but how do you make a cover when it's a
02:15a law that had never existed and processes that had never existed?
02:20I am very studious and I started studying the different forms of police interrogation.
02:27And basically there are two schools of thought on police interrogation.
02:31One is older, called the REIT Method, and is led by the United States and the
02:37US agencies.
02:39In the REIT Method, as in all police interrogations, the goal is to obtain a confession.
02:45And it is sought through the intimidation of the person being questioned.
02:50The other school is newer and began to develop in the 1980s in Great Britain because of the Method
02:56REIT results in many false confessions
02:59who then become people who sue the State. In fact, they have sued the State for torture, for the use of
03:06REIT Method.
03:06And when we started, the chronicler of torture, who was Juan Méndez, had recently published a guide on how
03:14It must have been the police interrogation
03:16adopting the British Method, which is more modern. The British Method is called the PIS Method.
03:22And how it's applied is that first you prepare your case very well and it requires very in-depth research
03:29Because the case doesn't depend on the interrogation. That is, the classic interrogation that one could choose not to conduct.
03:37One builds the case, all the evidence, with other evidence, including the testimony of the victims.
03:43In our case, the testimony of the victims is a very important part of building the case.
03:50The interrogation, then, is a space in which the first thing to do is to make the person being interrogated...
03:58feel at ease,
04:00He should feel calm. And these interrogations last a long time, days, weeks.
04:07And the person starts questioning her again, the person starts questioning her again, and you listen to her.
04:12and presents the evidence he has at different times. So, in that dialogue, one has to generate a dialogue.
04:21The model there is a bit like how a journalist works. I mean, you don't just show up and interview a dictator.
04:27and you tell him
04:28Oh, so you're a dictator, you've killed a lot of people, right? I mean, you come in and...
04:32soon, sometime
04:33The interviewer tells him, look, but they say you've killed a lot of people, here's the proof, what about you?
04:37says?
04:37And you guide it to the moment you want. That's how the PIS method works. It's a much more ethical method.
04:46because it doesn't depend on generating terror or fear in the person. The Attorney General's Office applies the method
04:53RIT usually
04:54And both methods have been applied in the JEP. Technically, both are equally effective in obtaining
05:01confessions.
05:03The way I apply it, I already had many years of research and conducting interviews, and so far we have obtained
05:10100% confessions. Because as the interrogation progresses, the person sees that there is a lot of evidence.
05:19And that they can't deny it. Generally, in the first few sessions, the person denies it. They say, "There isn't one," "That's not it."
05:27That's true, it's justified.
05:29And the role of the researcher, who has already prepared very well, is to listen, listen, listen and keep comparing.
05:38We also had a scenario in which the law itself states that this is an interrogation that, while it has
05:45value of confession,
05:47What one does is inform the person being questioned about what one has, the reports,
05:53That's what one gives to the Prosecutor's Office. And that at the stage I'm at
05:57It was the dialogical method,
05:59back then, nobody knew what the dialogic method was. But there was the word, and dialogue is very similar to...
06:06PIS method.
06:06So, what they got was 30 seconds of an interrogation that lasted that long, it was two whole days.
06:15But then there are many other moments, that is, we have many hours of video in which the method is applied.
06:22Later on, we included the participation of the victims, but in a safe space.
06:30One of the enormous challenges of the work we do is that, while the legal mandate is
06:40advertising from the very beginning,
06:42which is not usual, generally in the first part of the investigation by the Reserved Prosecutor's Office,
06:49They are the first part, and we already knew that from Justice and Peace, it's super re-victimizing,
06:56because one knows that in the first sessions the person being questioned will end up justifying themselves.
07:04And applying the method requires that you let him say what he's going to say, that he justifies everything.
07:12whoever wants to.
07:12And then the dialogue begins where you say to him, look, you say this, but I have this, you say
07:18This, but I have this.
07:19Or you said this two days ago, but we have this.
07:22Or he contradicted himself later.
07:23And it's taking shape, it's a dialogue.
07:29Generally, we know that the first step is justification,
07:33Especially when war crimes and crimes against humanity were committed, it was the paramilitaries who did it.
07:40And for the victims, and this is the reason why I agreed to give this interview,
07:46For the victims, it is very re-victimizing to hear that justification.
07:51The only reason I booked those first sessions
07:58It's because we had studied with the team, which is an interdisciplinary team that includes psychologists,
08:05We had studied the effect that the application of this method could have on the victims.
08:13In addition to those statements by Rodrigo Londoño, there is one of the videos in which he can be seen,
08:18For a couple of seconds, a very brief video, you were given a laugh in the conversation with the
08:23former FARC leaders.
08:24In what context did that happen, judge?
08:26Well, it was the first version.
08:28I can say that I was a happier person in 2019 than I am now.
08:33Actually, there was a lot of fear among us at that time,
08:39that they were going to carry out an attack on Rodrigo Londoño.
08:43Not only, that is, anyone, a revenge,
08:46or in the context that it was not known whether the war had stopped or not, what was going to happen.
08:53So, we had very strict security measures.
08:59We didn't even know what was going to happen, and there were riot police.
09:04waiting in case there were disturbances.
09:06There were several seat belts.
09:09In other words, we had a major security issue.
09:12And the lady who sells red wine, whose identity is unknown,
09:16He comes in like he owns the place with the red wine, suddenly.
09:20And I laughed at the absurdity of having prepared everything so much.
09:26and that the lady of the red wines came in.
09:29In other words, let's just say that was a mistake we didn't repeat.
09:32But at the time, it made me laugh, like the absurdity of it all.
09:37And then I think there's a comment there about,
09:40Now, humor lowers the tension.
09:43And the method requires lowering the tension,
09:47especially in these first sessions.
09:52I generally didn't use humor deliberately,
09:57But everything is visible,
10:01A very important part of the method is respect.
10:06Do you regret having made that gesture, magistrate?
10:09If I had known this was going to happen,
10:12Furthermore, it was not deliberate, it was spontaneous.
10:14If I had known this was going to happen, no.
10:19And I remember there was another moment when it made me laugh,
10:22But I don't know if I laughed at the time.
10:25He says that he read in his childhood,
10:29who hid to read,
10:30because it is also part of the method of rebuilding a person's life
10:34and listen to the person being questioned for a long time.
10:37It's somewhat based on science.
10:40in the sense that a person cannot scientifically
10:44to maintain a lie for a long time,
10:47because people start to get entangled in the lie.
10:50And in a context of trust, humanly speaking,
10:54which is also the application of the method,
10:56Apparently, or so they say,
10:58It makes you really want to be honest.
11:01If you think like the psychologist,
11:04In other words, he comes to her and says one thing,
11:05But after a long time, it's hard to lie to her.
11:08That's kind of the premise.
11:10So, we're listening to him our whole lives
11:12And he says that he used to hide to read
11:14And I thought it was like political stuff,
11:16Well, he's the leader of the guerrilla.
11:18I thought he was going to talk about something,
11:20communist,
11:21And he told me he hid away to read Vargas Vila,
11:24which was like the pornography of the time.
11:27So, I thought it was funny.
11:29I don't know if I laughed at that moment,
11:31But then I did laugh.
11:33because of the absurdity,
11:35And I was expecting it to be something military or political,
11:38and I left with Vargas Vila.
11:43Now, I believe this explanation,
11:47I'll tell you why I'm giving it,
11:49They tell me that if I go out and give it,
11:52That's what encourages all the robots.
11:54that they're going to bring up horrible things about me again,
11:58that they are going to make videos about artificial intelligence,
12:00Whatever I say,
12:01that in a context of political propaganda,
12:04The truth doesn't matter,
12:06What matters is that it's plausible,
12:08what is shown,
12:10that it is shown enough until it seems true,
12:13that I appear as one of the enemies,
12:18all of this.
12:22But it breaks my heart,
12:24And really,
12:25I mean,
12:25It makes me cry
12:28what this does to the victims.
12:31And I can,
12:33Ask me about that.
12:34Because I can explain.
12:34what this does to a kidnapping victim.
12:37I actually want to ask you a question.
12:38along those lines regarding the victims,
12:40because, let's say,
12:42the gesture in that video I've been circulating,
12:44It has hurt many of the victims of the FARC.
12:48What can we say to them today in the face of the pain they feel?
12:53Look,
12:54us throughout the entire process
12:57We studied and protected a lot
12:59to the victims of the FARC,
13:01mostly kidnapping.
13:04We understand the severity of the condition,
13:08We documented it,
13:09It is part of the indictment.
13:11I spent almost two years
13:12listening to victims of all types of kidnappings.
13:17documenting the torture,
13:19We impute the torture
13:20to which they submitted,
13:23understanding how the differences
13:24between the contexts
13:26of the various kidnappings
13:28in different regions,
13:29under different regimes,
13:31We documented the people who raped them,
13:34men and women,
13:35We documented all of that
13:36and we charged him.
13:38Here I also learned to recognize them.
13:42Kidnapping and more kidnapping
13:45that takes a long time,
13:47but sometimes this condition
13:49It can be given in 24 hours,
13:51generates a state of alert
13:53and scary
13:54who returns.
13:58I remember a gentleman
14:00that he told me
14:01that if they touched him,
14:04nowadays,
14:05after 20 years,
14:06that if they touched him by surprise,
14:08He has a panic attack.
14:11Even today.
14:12And he said,
14:13doctor,
14:14I was left like that.
14:16So,
14:18part of the affected
14:20That's the alert.
14:22and that anguish
14:22that at any time
14:24It fires.
14:26I have received messages
14:28and my office
14:29is trying to contain it
14:30of people
14:32that seeing
14:33the denial
14:34What does Rodrigo Londoño do?
14:36of torture
14:36the first day
14:37of this entire process,
14:39enter states
14:40panic
14:42and revive
14:44all
14:46the episode
14:48and the horror.
14:49And what is even more damaging
14:51It's about trust.
14:53that I earned
14:54listening to them
14:55for so long,
14:57To reiterate his words,
14:59imputing those crimes,
15:00giving it a name,
15:01It had never happened before.
15:03that had been charged
15:04torture as well,
15:05sexual violence,
15:06forced labor.
15:07We gave
15:08that that was slavery,
15:09The court said no.
15:11So,
15:13all that confidence
15:14that won
15:15with great difficulty
15:16with this victim
15:17for years
15:19listening,
15:20of respect,
15:21with deep respect
15:22because of the suffering
15:23of the victims,
15:24it falls apart
15:25with 30 seconds
15:26of the first day.
15:29That,
15:30And I know
15:31the damage
15:31That's what it does.
15:33Part of what
15:34we try to do
15:36that,
15:37well,
15:37the team
15:37He studies it
15:38and seems to have
15:40a healing effect,
15:41not worldwide,
15:42but in many people,
15:44the thing is
15:45an effect
15:46of the trauma
15:47is that one
15:47It remains like,
15:49or part of the brain
15:49of one,
15:50it keeps reviving
15:51what happened.
15:52It's not the whole person,
15:54but it's like a part
15:55of them
15:55that remains
15:56in fear,
15:57in pain,
15:58in all of this,
15:59and then there are other parts
16:00of life
16:01that are recovering.
16:03That part
16:04that stays
16:05going back there,
16:06somehow
16:06It remains in the past.
16:08It's like,
16:09you are living
16:10your life,
16:11but a part
16:12of you
16:12He's not here.
16:13He's not here now.
16:14It is in the horror.
16:16And at any time
16:17come back to yourself
16:18that part.
16:20So,
16:20we did
16:21an effort
16:21very deliberate,
16:23first of all,
16:24if he was shown
16:26This to the victims,
16:27show it to him
16:28with accompaniment.
16:29And the organizations
16:30that represent them
16:32They have also taken
16:33methodologies
16:34to accompany
16:34to people.
16:36When the victims
16:37participate,
16:38we always do
16:38a clarity
16:39that the support
16:40is available.
16:41But one thing
16:42What do we do?
16:43in a way
16:43very deliberate
16:44is to structure
16:45both listening
16:46like the way
16:47how it is presented
16:48in the story
16:48in time.
16:50Therefore,
16:51even if the person
16:52he tells us
16:53what happened to him
16:54during the kidnapping,
16:56if one sees that the person
16:58is affected,
16:58It brings it to the present day.
17:00I mean,
17:00help with the conversation
17:02to return
17:04the peak of 2020,
17:07which is every year
17:08that I heard them,
17:09because today
17:10Nothing is happening to them.
17:12Today they are safe
17:15and part,
17:17in addition to what
17:17It's done in therapy,
17:19it's like structuring
17:20so that the past
17:21Let it remain in the past
17:22and the person
17:23don't revive it
17:25constantly.
17:26So,
17:27what they do
17:27with circulation
17:28from this video
17:29It's a huge damage.
17:31to the victims
17:32because when I see
17:34to Rodrigo Londoño
17:35to say that there is no torture,
17:37They go back to the past.
17:39As if,
17:40first,
17:40for work
17:41with us
17:41it's as if never
17:42we would have done nothing
17:44with me.
17:46And on the other hand,
17:48even return
17:48at the moment
17:49of torture
17:50and believe
17:51that they have
17:52that insist
17:53that there was no torture
17:54when already
17:56justice
17:56document
17:57torture
17:58in detail.
17:59So,
18:00the damage
18:02emotional
18:02and mental
18:03that this causes
18:04It's tremendous.
18:06I received,
18:08I mean,
18:09There are victims
18:10to which I have given
18:11my personal phone
18:12and I received
18:14a message
18:15of a person
18:16which clearly
18:17I was suffering.
18:18Look,
18:19I haven't been able to sleep.
18:21It seems to me
18:22of a
18:23baseness
18:24and of a cruelty.
18:28That's why I'm here.
18:29If it helps
18:31tell them
18:31again
18:33that everything
18:34their suffering
18:35We picked it up,
18:36We wrote it,
18:37which is part
18:37of the case,
18:38we heard it
18:39carefully,
18:40that was charged
18:41torture,
18:42that there was
18:43torture.
18:43That's it
18:44They can't deny it,
18:45They already accepted that.
18:47We carried out an errand
18:48in which
18:48They accepted it
18:49in front of the victims.
18:53All of that
18:54Yes, it happened.
18:57This week
18:58It has moved
18:59a campaign
19:00of lynching
19:02against him
19:02because of these statements
19:03of which we are
19:04talking,
19:06which largely
19:06are related
19:07with a wound
19:08very deep
19:08that the country has
19:09of many years
19:10of violence,
19:12with a wound
19:12also related
19:13with an agreement
19:14in which right
19:1510 years ago
19:16He lost the number.
19:18What can you do?
19:19then the JEP
19:20to treat
19:21to mediate
19:21in that wound
19:23And so as not to ignore it?
19:26I don't know.
19:28If I knew,
19:29I would.
19:31I think that
19:32we have,
19:33I personally
19:34I have tried
19:35what is,
19:36everything that is
19:37in my possession.
19:40I think that
19:41people
19:42think
19:45that
19:47I mean,
19:48I don't know
19:49I don't know what
19:49they think.
19:50I have tried
19:51all.
19:52They ask me
19:53that he does
19:53things
19:54which would
19:55illegal
19:56If I made them
19:57because I
19:58I'm going for a
19:58constitution,
19:59a law.
20:00If Congress
20:01wants to change
20:02the laws,
20:03that they change them.
20:04I don't understand
20:05because
20:06have
20:06that destroy me
20:08me
20:08to change
20:08a law.
20:09I don't understand
20:10because
20:10They have to do it
20:11so much damage
20:11to the victims
20:12to change
20:12a law.
20:13if they are
20:14the branch
20:15legislative,
20:16well then
20:17present
20:17a project,
20:19get the votes,
20:20change the law
20:21and the Court
20:22Constitutional
20:23let him decide
20:23If that's the case
20:24constitutional
20:24or not.
20:25I really
20:27I don't know
20:27to do
20:28And I don't understand
20:29because
20:30to achieve
20:31the change
20:32by law
20:33that they have
20:33they have to
20:34destroy me
20:34me.
20:37Because I
20:38It destroys me
20:38also.
20:41You were talking
20:42magistrate
20:42a moment ago
20:43of the reasons
20:44that there
20:45or the reasons
20:47behind
20:47from that abyss
20:47among the first
20:48statements
20:49by Rodrigo Londoño
20:50and what is seen
20:50then when already
20:51There is recognition
20:52responsibility
20:53in front of the victims.
20:57Maybe
20:58that abyss
20:59make it easy
21:00for some people
21:01understand it
21:02with this whole method
21:03that you were
21:04explaining,
21:05what does that have to do with it
21:05with the shape
21:06in which he anticipates
21:07your process.
21:09as he already told us
21:10but that person
21:12promptly
21:12For example
21:13that he wrote
21:14this week
21:14showing him
21:15their concern
21:16How to explain it to him
21:18in the form
21:18simpler?
21:21It's just that I
21:22what I know how to do
21:23It's about investigating.
21:25He says that
21:26I am a judge
21:28training
21:29I don't take
21:30the final decision
21:31I'm doing an investigation
21:32I am the person
21:34I think that
21:35in this country
21:35who has investigated the most
21:37the crimes
21:38tasks
21:39by the guerrillas
21:40not everything
21:41what happened
21:42in the armed conflict
21:43but if
21:43the crimes
21:44tasks
21:45by the FARC
21:46I am the person
21:46in this country
21:47that has them most
21:47investigated
21:48who knows them best
21:50retail
21:51that has
21:52asked
21:53to the victims
21:54What happened to them?
21:56all kinds
21:57of victims
21:57the victims
21:58of kidnapping
21:58They are some
21:59but I have had
22:00many victims
22:01of other crimes
22:03that already
22:04I have taken out
22:05nine charges
22:06very detailed
22:07from different regions
22:08I have documented
22:09the impact
22:10to people
22:10to the families
22:11to the regions
22:12I have rated them
22:14we have rated it
22:15with my living room
22:15as war crimes
22:17crimes against humanity
22:18all of that has been attributed
22:19and it is handed over
22:20to the peace court
22:21so that he/she can make the decisions
22:23what is it that I
22:25I can do
22:25I don't know
22:27how to relieve
22:28the pain
22:30of a person
22:32when it arrives
22:33at that level
22:34That's a specialty.
22:36of impact
22:37emotional
22:39me neither
22:41I know how to do
22:41political propaganda
22:44not even
22:45I know how to communicate
22:46I know how to do
22:46an investigation
22:47I know how to look at the evidence
22:49I know how to look at the files
22:50I know how to look at the files
22:51I know the law
22:52I know how to rate
22:53juridically
22:54That's what I
22:55I know how to do
22:56and honestly
22:57I do it very well
22:58I've earned
23:00recognition
23:01of the corporation
23:02of excellence
23:02of justice
23:03several because of the cars
23:04I have had
23:06people who come
23:07of the universities
23:08most prestigious
23:09of the world
23:10to study
23:10How do I do it?
23:11They invite me too
23:14and I have a team
23:16marvelous
23:18that we have learned
23:20together
23:21and among that team
23:23I have people
23:24who knows
23:25to pay attention
23:27or that he is learning
23:28because also
23:29we are developing
23:30methodology
23:31in the care
23:31and the accompaniment
23:32psychosocial
23:33But that's not it.
23:34what I do
23:35Nor is it what I know
23:36do
23:36I know how to investigate
23:38I know how to impute
23:39And I know how to do it.
23:41with standards
23:42respect
23:43for human rights
23:45And that's what I do.
23:46in one of the publications
23:48from the senator
23:49inn
23:50She was asking a question
23:51very direct
23:52about why
23:52these hearings
23:53are reserved
23:55And you explained it.
23:56a moment ago
23:57the question then
23:58after
23:59then there he
23:59Let me tell you something
24:00nowadays
24:00They have no reservation
24:02that suddenly
24:03It was a mistake
24:04I made a reservation for them
24:05at the beginning
24:06because of its potential
24:07revictimizing
24:07what did I mean
24:08booking
24:09It's just that
24:10the victims
24:11They had access to that
24:12but not the public
24:13in general
24:13even the first ones
24:15which are the toughest
24:16in that sense
24:17They were being transferred
24:19with psychosocial support
24:21but then
24:22that they
24:23We already filed the charges
24:24The verdict has been reached.
24:25They already acknowledged it publicly
24:27It is 2026
24:28That has no reservation.
24:30nowadays
24:30That's part of it.
24:31of history
24:32of this country
24:33and also part of it
24:34of what they study
24:35That's the difference
24:36between that moment
24:37of 2019
24:39and how
24:40in 2022
24:42We have them
24:44publicly
24:44recognizing
24:46that there was torture
24:47recognizing
24:47your responsibility
24:48then it is a
24:50process
24:51that was done
24:52besides the hand
24:53of the victims
24:53because
24:54one of the things
24:56what else
24:56convinces
24:58to the
24:59to the
25:00perpetrators
25:01to recognize
25:02your responsibility
25:02It is the face
25:03of the victims
25:04and humanity
25:06of the victims
25:08so
25:08We did it
25:09with them
25:10It was achieved
25:11and what is spread
25:13is
25:1430 seconds
25:16of a process
25:17that lasted
25:19because we're finished
25:20the investigations
25:20in kidnapping
25:21which lasted several years
25:22which included
25:23throughout the country
25:24that we finished
25:25also
25:26including
25:27the accusation
25:28to many
25:28of middle management
25:29as those ultimately responsible
25:31that they have come
25:33recognizing
25:35and?
25:36to whom
25:36the law
25:37He gave it to him
25:38a second chance
25:41You just mentioned
25:42that the investigations already
25:43about the case
25:4401
25:44which is the case
25:45of kidnapping
25:45finished
25:47and part
25:48a very important part
25:49of the opposition
25:50of the JEP
25:50They say that justice
25:51transitional
25:51has been condescending
25:53with the old guerrilla
25:54of the FARC
25:55which has been the object
25:56from his research
25:56and has been tough on her.
25:58with the military
25:58after finishing
25:59those investigations
26:00judges
26:01What is your position?
26:03in response to those claims
26:06condescending
26:07we have not been
26:08with the guerrilla
26:10if there has been
26:12ethical treatment
26:13respectful
26:14human rights
26:15and within the framework
26:17of the constitution
26:18and the law
26:19part of a process
26:21reintegration
26:22which did not include jail
26:25but contemplated
26:27the recognition
26:29face to face
26:30and some jobs
26:31that they should have
26:32a restorative sense
26:34That's what it is
26:35in the standard
26:36That's what it is
26:37in the law
26:38And that's what it does
26:40and can do
26:40the JEP
26:43So I think
26:44that people
26:45gets confused
26:47or lets himself be confused
26:49because once again
26:50we are in a regime
26:51political propaganda
26:53which is increasing
26:54through technology
26:55from the phone
26:56And that too.
26:57I'm studying it.
26:58identifying
26:59where the truth
27:01It doesn't matter
27:03The truth is
27:05They don't care
27:06It doesn't matter
27:07because what matters
27:08It's winning a game
27:10that your team
27:12I won a game
27:13and that the other
27:14lose
27:16That's what matters
27:17no matter how
27:19no matter who
27:20now
27:22I don't want to
27:23personalize
27:24where do they come from
27:25the attacks
27:26I think that
27:27the kidnapping
27:28in particular
27:29It was a phenomenon
27:30which affected many people
27:31and in many ways
27:33And I think that
27:35people
27:36No
27:38or is not identified
27:39as a victim
27:40or doesn't want to talk
27:40about that
27:42but people
27:43She is hurt
27:44it felt
27:45humiliated
27:46abused
27:47wants to be
27:49respected
27:50believes that
27:51this process
27:52It's disrespectful.
27:53with their pain
27:53above all
27:54if they have not participated
27:55in it
27:55but even
27:56some who have participated
27:57They feel disrespected
28:00and that
28:01they mix
28:03both things
28:04it mixes
28:05on the one hand
28:06all this river
28:07of politics
28:08in which
28:09it is used
28:10propaganda
28:10to conclude
28:11with the opposition
28:13to conclude
28:14with its moral character
28:15That's nothing new.
28:16yes indeed
28:17There is a precedent
28:18historical
28:19of what it means
28:19to end moral character
28:21of a person
28:22seeking a political end
28:24what is new
28:26is to use it
28:27via telephone
28:28and with fake videos
28:30with fake images
28:32and
28:35generally
28:36Politicians do it
28:37against each other
28:38They're doing it here
28:39against an investigating judge
28:40or against a prosecutor
28:42or against journalists
28:43then everything is ready
28:45that river
28:47that one remains
28:48as if trapped
28:49in a job
28:50in a game
28:51which is not one's
28:52What is this?
28:52of politics
28:54and their hatreds
28:54and on the other hand
28:56There is a reality
28:58which is the enormous pain
29:00that people carry today
29:02People keep carrying
29:04the enormous pain
29:05of the conflict
29:07and for many
29:08many, many people
29:10It's kidnapping
29:11because even
29:12if we can document
29:14How many kidnappings were there?
29:16or how many people
29:17he told the state
29:18that she had been kidnapped
29:19because many people
29:20did not count
29:20because for each person
29:22kidnapped
29:23There are dozens
29:25if not more
29:26of people
29:27personally affected
29:28We're talking
29:29of the family
29:29the friends
29:30the neighborhood
29:31and people who
29:32so that she wouldn't be kidnapped
29:34changed his life
29:35and suffered
29:36and all that suffering
29:39It's not there
29:41so like
29:42both things come together
29:43and it's very difficult
29:45to respond
29:47are close
29:48of 22,000 cases
29:50those that you
29:51has documented
29:52us
29:53There are like two levels
29:54documentation
29:55one
29:56choose
29:56all lists
29:57of the people
29:58that he said
29:58to the prosecutor's office
29:59that she had been kidnapped
30:00or he told
30:00to the NGO
30:01Let's not put
30:02free country
30:03or at some point
30:04there is a record
30:05with his name
30:06and his ID card
30:06that they kidnapped her
30:07That day almost 22,000
30:10and then
30:11people
30:11who came
30:12so that we could listen to them
30:13which are
30:14four thousand and something
30:16many of them
30:17They don't feel it yet.
30:19completely repaired
30:21No?
30:21What can I tell them?
30:24Look
30:25to be honest
30:26There are different levels.
30:28to answer that
30:30so
30:32a part
30:33is
30:34the repair
30:36as a repair
30:37monetary
30:37that the JEP
30:38it doesn't give
30:39nor can it give
30:41I mean
30:42if I were to order
30:43give him money
30:43to someone
30:44I ended up in jail
30:45that easy
30:46because I don't have
30:47that capacity
30:49Who has it?
30:50the government
30:52Well
30:52so
30:53in that sense
30:54there is a
30:55repair issue
30:58even
30:58There is a difference there.
30:59among the victims
31:00because there are victims
31:02for which
31:0320 million pesos
31:04or 10 million pesos
31:05would solve it for them
31:06his life
31:07And then there are others.
31:08what do you tell me?
31:09That's pocket money.
31:10So there's an issue
31:11economic
31:12that I can't handle
31:13And there are differences.
31:14among the victims
31:16another topic
31:17is
31:18emotionally repaired
31:24one of the sites
31:25where I was invited
31:26to give a class
31:27It was now
31:28in Argentina
31:30where
31:31They have been very, very hard
31:32with the military
31:33under the dictatorship
31:34extremely hard
31:36I mean
31:36It's a life sentence.
31:38and the dictator
31:39Videla
31:40He died
31:41in jail
31:42at over 80 years old
31:43under certain conditions
31:45very humiliating
31:46fell
31:47in a bathroom
31:48did not receive
31:49medical attention
31:50it stayed there
31:50when they had already picked it up
31:52because he was already going to die
31:54so
31:55They interview the victims
31:56in an interview
31:57well macabre
31:59which is
31:59if they are happy
32:00that he died
32:03and there
32:04They are not satisfied
32:06I mean
32:07that
32:07there is no repair
32:10possible
32:11but
32:12the search
32:15in itself
32:16It is common
32:17take care
32:17permanently
32:18in search
32:21which also
32:22postpones
32:23the moment
32:24to know
32:27that there are things
32:28that are irreparable
32:30and
32:31I
32:32I don't know
32:34who or how
32:36repairs
32:37the irreparable
32:38Now to wrap things up
32:39magistrate
32:39I mentioned it
32:41do you
32:41you guys for a while
32:42We have seen him
32:42also the charges
32:43you
32:44maybe the person
32:45who knows best
32:47how it worked
32:47the war
32:48of the guerrilla
32:48of the FARC
32:49because the
32:50has studied them
32:50lot
32:51and has investigated them
32:51lot
32:52and he said
32:53also in several
32:53opportunities
32:54I even think
32:55than in others
32:55dialogues
32:56with the viewer
32:56that the objective
32:58to understand
32:58how it worked
32:59the war
33:00is to see
33:00how to stop it
33:02how to stop it
33:03what could have
33:04understand
33:04about that
33:05in the investigations
33:06what has he done
33:07I'm going to talk
33:08of today
33:09October
33:10of 2026
33:11TRUE?
33:13because
33:14It's already happened
33:15a long time
33:16years
33:19so
33:20I have been able to understand
33:21as
33:21different levels
33:24one thing
33:25is
33:26I understand
33:28as
33:28how it works
33:29the ideology
33:30for
33:33dehumanize
33:34to the other
33:34and allow
33:35violence
33:37so
33:39to hurt him
33:40to someone
33:40at a human level
33:41It goes against
33:43of nature
33:44human
33:45I do believe it
33:47that
33:47I believe
33:47that we
33:48naturally
33:49are
33:50compassionate
33:52naturally
33:53besides
33:53Colombians
33:54we are very
33:55in general
33:56sociable
33:56We looked at each other
33:58to the face
33:58we want to talk
33:59one of the things
34:01let's put
34:01of the kidnapping
34:02which is paradoxical
34:04the thing is
34:05the guerrilla
34:06has to forbid
34:07to the guerrillas
34:08that they speak to him
34:09to the kidnapped
34:11when they ask them
34:12during the interrogation
34:12Why are they prohibiting it?
34:13they say
34:14that
34:14because it starts
34:15to create a bond
34:19affective
34:21because
34:21Colombians
34:23us
34:25we understand
34:25we talked
34:26and we connect
34:28I believe
34:28that's nature
34:29human
34:30and compassion
34:33as
34:33can one
34:34work against
34:35of nature
34:35so that people
34:36mate
34:37and creates
34:38which is fine
34:39kill oneself
34:41It is the mechanism
34:42of ideology
34:43which has as
34:44a step-by-step guide
34:45And I've seen it.
34:46in all the stories
34:47of the war
34:48I see it in cars
34:49of my colleagues
34:50and in the research
34:51what do they do?
34:52in what they did
34:53in justice
34:53and peace
34:54throughout the documentation
34:56judicial
34:56of the conflict
34:57This is
35:00It's here in detail
35:02but it is relatively
35:03simple
35:03so
35:04the first step
35:06if you like
35:06that people kill each other
35:07is to convince
35:08to the people
35:09that there is a possibility
35:11that there is
35:12a world
35:13better
35:14you put it
35:15the content
35:16that you think
35:17I mean
35:18that better world
35:18could be
35:19the end of poverty
35:20could be
35:22the kingdom of God
35:23on earth
35:24could be
35:25anything
35:26But it's a world
35:27better
35:28and the next
35:29is to convince
35:30to the people
35:30that world
35:31is possible
35:33and that is
35:34coming
35:35soon
35:37the first step
35:38then the people
35:38believes
35:38I don't like this.
35:40But there is a possibility
35:41of a better world
35:41really better
35:42the next step
35:44is to convince
35:44to the people
35:45that if there is no
35:46a better world
35:47It's because of an enemy.
35:50a single enemy
35:52which is the one that
35:53that does not allow
35:55that it materializes
35:56which
35:57People want
36:00and the only solution
36:01is to eliminate it
36:04then
36:05so that the violence
36:06really take flight
36:07You have to train
36:09specialists
36:10in violence
36:10you have to
36:12convince
36:13to everyone
36:13which is fine
36:14to end this group
36:15because it's the group
36:16that prevents
36:17a better world
36:18And you have to train
36:20some people
36:20that specializes
36:22in killing
36:23torture
36:24wage war
36:26those people
36:27You have to
36:27train
36:28for
36:28that accepts
36:30do that
36:33the training
36:34For example
36:35a person
36:35of a torturer
36:36It's very complex.
36:38you have to
36:39convince him
36:40that this is necessary
36:41that we have to end
36:43with the enemy
36:44that's how it is sometimes
36:45give you scruples
36:45from seeing the suffering
36:48It has to be finished
36:51And you say that.
36:54That's a machine
36:55of war
36:56that has no end
36:58so
37:00now the app
37:01of that in Colombia
37:02goes through
37:03all ways
37:05how you can
37:05formulate
37:06which world is better
37:07how you can
37:08formulate
37:09who is the enemy
37:10that we have to end
37:11which is almost not
37:13a human being
37:13because it has to be finished
37:16and the need
37:18heroic
37:19to overcome
37:19one's own scruples
37:21to achieve
37:22that better world
37:23now
37:24There are always people
37:25which is a minority
37:27that is
37:28in that
37:28but to get
37:29personal advantage
37:32people who think
37:33No
37:33the world
37:35It's horrible
37:35people
37:36It's horrible
37:36everyone
37:37what you are looking for
37:38their own interest
37:39so
37:40I'm not going to let myself be.
37:41I'm going to play
37:42this game
37:43I'm going to play
37:44to win
37:44because I'm going to be
37:45very tasty
37:45or I'm going to have
37:46much power
37:47And that's going to make me
37:48happy
37:50That will calm things down.
37:51every time
37:52that have humiliated me
37:53that they have mistreated me
37:54I am now going to be
37:56a very rich person
37:57very powerful
37:58How wonderful!
37:59I
37:59There are people like that.
38:01But what has been learned
38:03That's the majority
38:04of the people
38:05who enters the war
38:06that does a lot of damage
38:07or most
38:08of the people
38:09that tolerates
38:09violence
38:10against the others
38:11and that tolerates
38:13that he humiliates himself
38:14that it is mistreated
38:14that it be destroyed
38:16physically and morally
38:18It's because he thinks
38:19that that is necessary
38:20who is an enemy
38:22who must be eliminated
38:25and the whole speech
38:27It goes in that direction.
38:28I've learned that
38:30as in the abstract
38:31and then
38:32I have also learned
38:33Why cannons?
38:35The armies pass by
38:36which are the rivers
38:37that divide the territories
38:38which are the towns
38:40most affected
38:41which are the places
38:42coca growers
38:43which ones don't
38:44throughout the geography
38:47human and physical
38:48of horror
38:49and it is also
38:50learning
38:51of the pain
38:51of the victims
38:53Yeah
38:53That's something.
38:55that
38:56or it can destroy you
38:59hearing so many stories
39:01of pain
39:02but also
39:05It makes you feel like
39:06because you learn
39:07through
39:08of compassion
39:10and empathy
39:11more than compassion
39:13to be a better person
39:15And there is a learning process.
39:18which for me
39:19It's been incredible
39:21and that to me
39:22It has transformed me
39:23and it is
39:24learn
39:25of resilience
39:27and of the fortress
39:29of the victims
39:30because
39:31somehow
39:31Everything sticks
39:32then it sticks
39:34well
39:34suffering
39:36the anguish
39:36sometimes one is hearing
39:37to the person
39:38who returned
39:39at that moment
39:40horror
39:40and only one
39:41from hearing it
39:42she is there with them
39:43Yeah
39:43He's watching it
39:44It's very impressive.
39:46It happened to me
39:47once
39:48It seemed to me
39:49see ghosts
39:52because
39:53He was a peasant
39:54that I was telling
39:54that the FARC
39:55had disappeared
39:56three brothers
39:57and that seemed to me
39:58see them there
39:58I did a minute
40:00of silence
40:02I mean
40:02one like that
40:03He hears them
40:04and feels them
40:04but the other
40:06that happens to you too
40:06It sticks to you too.
40:08is
40:09like admiration
40:11for their generosity
40:12for the value
40:13and for all the people
40:14who has chosen
40:16along the way
40:16of forgiveness
40:18that too
40:19I think that
40:20in these years
40:21from that clip
40:22besides
40:23It has helped me grow
40:24as a person
40:26She is the magistrate
40:28Juliet
40:28Lemaitre Ripoll
40:29of the jurisdiction
40:30special for peace
40:31from his room
40:32recognition
40:32really
40:33magistrate
40:33Thank you for having us
40:34accompanied
40:35in interviews
40:35of the viewer
40:36Thank you
40:37Thank you for listening.
40:38I hope
40:39that the message
40:39this is
40:40for the victims
40:41that I know
40:42and I hope
40:44that the explanation
40:46a little technical
40:47and not very interesting
40:48for AI
40:49and the networks
40:50and the bots
40:51reach them
40:52and that they know
40:54which is a moment
40:55during the interrogation
40:56which is a technique
40:57from the interrogation
40:58and?
40:59It was something
41:00of 2019
41:02and if they are
41:03suffering
41:04at the moment
41:05seek help
41:07also
41:08and that that help
41:09It is also
41:10in the jurisdiction
41:11if they need
41:12psychosocial support
41:13because
41:13the circulation
41:15and manipulation
41:16from that video
41:16is enormously
41:17revictimizing
41:18And that's why
41:19I'm here
41:19taking a risk
41:20to return
41:21to take out
41:21all the crap
41:22that they take out
41:22and that they invent
41:24thank you
41:26Thank you very much as well.
41:27to the entire audience
41:28that connects
41:28with interviews
41:29to the viewer
41:30for more information
41:31judicial
41:31don't forget
41:32visit
41:32the viewer
41:33dot com
41:33and follow us
41:34in all
41:34our social media
41:38Thank you!