- hace 14 horas
En entrevista con El Espectador, la magistrada Catalina Díaz Gómez, presidenta de la Sala de Reconocimiento de Verdad de la Jurisdicción Especial para la Paz (JEP), habló sobre el proyecto de reforma constitucional con el que el Centro Democrático busca que las sentencias contra exintegrantes de la fuerza pública sean revisadas por el Tribunal Superior Militar y Policial. Aseguró que, de aprobarse esa iniciativa, el país estaría retrocediendo décadas en materia de independencia judicial e impunidad, por los crímenes que la justicia militar encubrió.
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00:09The Congress of the Republic has in its hands a constitutional reform project that seeks
00:14modify the scope of any of the judgments of the Special Jurisdiction for Peace,
00:18the JEP, especially those related to former members of the Public Force. For
00:22to understand the scope and dimension of this project that has many analysts worried
00:27and also to the judges and those who work in the Special Jurisdiction for Peace and to the
00:31victims, we are joined by the president of the Truth Recognition Chamber of the JEP,
00:35Judge Catalina Díaz Gómez. Judge, good morning and welcome to Interviews of
00:39State. Hello, Gustavo, thank you very much. Well, magistrate, we have a conversation
00:43very important at this time. The JEP has been at the center of public discussion during
00:47The last few weeks, right? Budget on one hand, and also the project that seeks to reduce
00:51Its deadline is 10 years, but there is a project that hasn't received much attention and is very important.
00:56and it has a lot to do with what the Truth and Reconciliation Chamber does, and it is
01:00This review of sentences. Many of the people who support this project for
01:06that the sentences against former members of the Public Force be reviewed
01:10The automatic conclusion by the Superior Military and Police Court is that the JEP has not done enough
01:15Or has he not done what was expected during his years in office? What is your position?
01:20Or your opinion on that argument? Well, Gustavo, this is a really very... project
01:24This is important, and thank you very much for bringing it up for public debate. It's a proposed reform to the
01:29Constitution that seeks to establish that all convictions against former members
01:36that the Public Force be automatically reviewed by the Superior Military Court and that, furthermore,
01:43Review suspends the sentences, suspends the convictions. This approach actually ignores two
01:52decades of consolidated, reiterated constitutional jurisprudence, and reiterated decisions;
01:59consolidated rulings of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights and other United Nations bodies that
02:05They have said that military criminal justice should not be used to investigate, prosecute, or punish crimes
02:14of crimes against humanity, war crimes, serious human rights violations. There really is a
02:18very broad consensus in international and constitutional jurisprudence
02:24Colombian on the fact that military discipline and military criminal jurisdiction should not be a mechanism of
02:33Investigation, prosecution, and review of serious human rights violations. This project
02:40constitutional reform would actually go against those repeated decisions of the Court
02:47Colombian Constitutional Court and the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. The JEP has two cases
02:53specifically related to former members of the public force and other state agents,
02:57Case 03 and Case 08, and in hearings for those two cases in departments like Antioquia, for example.
03:04We have heard accounts from those who appeared in court in which they say that they were even in many
03:09opportunities to military criminal justice with slips of paper that told them what they had to do
03:14to say before the members of that body and the JEP has shown in some way how that
03:20This instance helped to cover up serious human rights violations, which is what you mentioned.
03:24It's been a while since investigations and sanctions could be imposed at that level. How can we assess the situation today?
03:29What damage did the events in the military criminal justice system cause to the justice system in those cases?
03:35Perhaps Gustavo should start by saying that the JEP has investigated thoroughly and rigorously.
03:43both to the former FARC. We have clarified the policies adopted by the former guerrilla group,
03:51dictated by the former guerrilla group, which caused, for example, 21,000 kidnappings and hostage-takings,
03:58both against civilians and we have even said that torture and cruel treatment were committed against
04:05military combatants who were taken hostage and subjected to truly cruel treatment
04:12cruel, inhuman, and degrading. We've also clarified, you know, the recruitment policy.
04:18of personnel to the ranks of the FARC that led to the recruitment of children, how abortion
04:25Forced sexual violence became a systematic practice against those recruited girls.
04:32We have recently clarified the FARC's policy of controlling territory and population
04:38and the crimes of murder, massacres, and even sexual violence that were committed against
04:44including indigenous leaders from those territories who resisted the FARC's rules,
04:51For example, community leaders who did not want to plant coca and were therefore murdered.
04:57So I think that in terms of the JEP's investigation, both against the former FARC,
05:03It has been very rigorous, very thorough, very in-depth, and the same applies to the crimes that have to do with
05:10with state agents. We have clarified the body counting policy.
05:15which led to the mass murders and enforced disappearances of more than 7,000 people
05:21who were falsely presented as combat casualties throughout the country.
05:27We also clarified the policy of stigmatizing the Patriotic Union political party.
05:33since its emergence in '85 and which led to the genocide of the party.
05:39And we have also solved crimes committed by state agents
05:43in association with the paramilitaries recently.
05:46And it was very exciting to see the photo of the people on the front page of El Espectador.
05:52who are still missing from the Barranca Bermeja massacres
05:56which were caused within the framework of an alliance that we tested in detail
06:01between members of different battalions, including Intelligence Battalion No. 2
06:07with the paramilitaries.
06:08We also tested these alliances in Urabá and other territories.
06:14So, that research has been robust and rigorous.
06:18And within the framework of that investigation, as you point out,
06:21Indeed, we have found former members of the Army who told us
06:26Look, the military criminal judges collaborated with us at the time
06:31to cover up the crimes.
06:34For example, in the case of false positives,
06:37because many of these body inspections,
06:40The removal of the bodies was carried out by the military criminal judges.
06:45where they noted that one victim had two left boots
06:49either two right boots or a victim was wearing sneakers when supposedly
06:54This had happened in a fight or he had gunpowder tattoos
06:58that remain when it is fired as if to burn clothes.
07:02And the military criminal judges passed it, they really passed it.
07:07We also have many statements that describe how they created pro forma invoices.
07:12so that the soldiers would offer statements that wouldn't actually contribute anything.
07:16not to clarify what happened, but rather to cover up the crimes,
07:20state in a formatted way how many people participated,
07:25what ammunition was used, what was the scene of the alleged combat.
07:29So much so that the government of the time, in the mid-2000s,
07:37when there were already many reports of false positives,
07:41The United Nations made those accusations in private settings.
07:46that it had with the government, the government itself one of the measures
07:49One important decision he made was to bring all these cases to justice.
07:54ordinary and that's when perhaps in 2005, 2006 the first ones began
08:01investigations by the ordinary justice system, showing how these crimes
08:07They had been covered up in the military criminal justice system.
08:10Then the question arises of why go back two decades.
08:15and why submit to automatic review by the High Military Court
08:21the JEP's convictions against members of the public force.
08:26Yes, there is all the evidence that military criminal justice,
08:30In many cases, it functioned as a cover-up mechanism
08:33of the crimes, where many investigations into false positives are taking place.
08:36They were filed away, they never reached any identification
08:41of alleged perpetrators, and that was clearly warned by the United Nations.
08:46The High Commissioner's office at the time said here
08:49The first thing that needs to be done is to investigate these crimes.
08:52in the ordinary justice system.
08:53But in a very, very specific way, Your Honor,
08:56So how much damage did it do to the administration of justice?
08:59In those contexts, what about military and police criminal justice?
09:02Well, I think the point is what the Constitutional Court has said.
09:07repeatedly, military criminal justice, military criminal jurisdiction
09:11that exists in the Constitution and that is perfectly legitimate justice
09:16for, let's say, crimes specific to the service,
09:22stealing weapons, escaping from the forces, other crimes,
09:29abandonment of post, I recall at this moment the Military Penal Code,
09:32which are typically of the service, specific to the military sphere,
09:39Well, that's what justice is for.
09:41The Constitutional Court has repeatedly stated that this justice
09:45It is not for serious human rights violations.
09:48and in Colombia it is approved that having attempted serious violations
09:54human rights violations were to be investigated by the military criminal justice system.
09:57It only generated impunity.
10:00So why appeal to a body that generated impunity?
10:06in these past decades, when there is a justice system that was created justly
10:13specialized, with specialized knowledge in the law of war,
10:18Well, that is, let's say, the central mandate of the JEP,
10:22Is being the natural judge of the most serious war crimes your role?
10:26Of course, we have made important decisions.
10:3090% of the former Army members charged
10:35have acknowledged responsibility.
10:38And that speaks volumes, and I always say it,
10:41of his courage, his bravery, his fortitude,
10:45as well as the rigor and robustness of the tests.
10:51Because of the accusations we have made
10:53against these former officers, non-commissioned officers, soldiers,
10:56They are very robust, because the tests are there.
10:59Yes, even the viewer posted about a month ago, maybe,
11:06the evidence, for example, of the entry of the paramilitaries
11:08to the Intelligence Battalion in Bucaramanga.
11:11We have hundreds of confessions of false positives.
11:15We have been very rigorous in terms of testing.
11:19And that's why these former members of the Public Force are also involved.
11:22They have taken advantage of the opportunity that the JEP represents.
11:26They have honored their word to contribute to the truth.
11:29They have shown courage and have acknowledged their responsibility.
11:35And that mechanism works.
11:37And for those who do not recognize it, there is the adversarial process.
11:42So why subject it to an extra instance?
11:45decisions of the Military Criminal Court that are just
11:50those that will come in the very near next few years
11:53of adversarial processes and also of the processes
11:56with recognition of the Military Criminal Court
11:59that constitutionally it cannot know
12:02of serious human rights violations
12:04and that should be focused on the crimes
12:06typically military.
12:09And what have the United Nations and the Inter-American Court said?
12:12of Human Rights that has not exactly led
12:15to the clarification of these crimes,
12:17but to impunity.
12:19You mentioned, magistrate, the issue of the law of war.
12:22Senator Rafael Nieto, who presented this project
12:25at the beginning of the Democratic Center,
12:27Well, he said in a conversation we had
12:29which is precisely one of the objectives of this project
12:31It was to guarantee that those who judged, investigated, and judged
12:35and sanction the former members of the Public Force
12:37had full knowledge
12:39how the law of war works,
12:41how the rules of the military work
12:44and of the police.
12:45But in part, the JEP is designed for that.
12:47Many judges too, there is even one judge
12:50who comes from working in the military criminal justice system
12:52for 24 years, if I'm not mistaken.
12:55So what is your response to that position?
12:57Regarding their claim of ignorance of the law?
13:00Yes, we were chosen by an international panel.
13:05a delegate of the European Court of Human Rights,
13:08a delegate of the Secretary-General of the United Nations,
13:10from the International Center for Transitional Justice,
13:13of the Supreme Court of Justice
13:14and from the public university system here in Colombia.
13:20And that panel, the interviews were public,
13:233,000 people applied for 38 positions
13:26of judges and magistrates.
13:28So, one of the criteria that was established
13:31to be chosen as a magistrate of the JEP
13:33It was knowledge of the law of war,
13:36of international humanitarian law,
13:38of the law of armed conflict,
13:40of the law of military operations.
13:43Many colleagues, for example, a female colleague
13:45She comes from working for many years at the ICRC,
13:49at the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva.
13:52Other colleagues were coming from work
13:54in the Inter-American Court of Human Rights,
13:56having experience at the International Criminal Court,
13:59of an important academic career.
14:02For example, several were professors of International Humanitarian Law,
14:05human rights.
14:06Even, look at my case,
14:09the Ministry of Defense,
14:11the Strategic Transition Command,
14:14He created a one-year diploma program
14:17on the law of military operations.
14:19I took it with other colleagues.
14:21It was very interesting and, well,
14:24there we learned in great detail
14:27issues of the law of military operations.
14:30This, added to the trajectory
14:31that we had several and international
14:34in rights, then,
14:36in international humanitarian law
14:38and in human rights.
14:39So, I think the argument
14:41Ignorance is not real.
14:44And, in fact, in these eight years,
14:47Well, we've jumped right in.
14:49in the military archives.
14:50For example, we know things
14:52that no judge in Colombia had ever heard of.
14:54Radio programs
14:56of the commanders with their men.
14:58We have, I personally,
14:59read pages and pages
15:01soldiers' handwritten notes
15:03about what the orders were
15:05and directive instructions
15:06dictated by the commanders
15:09on those radio programs.
15:10So, we are now
15:12in the midst of the investigation
15:13from the archives of the 20th Intelligence Brigade,
15:16all intelligence assessments
15:18from the eighties.
15:20The JEP has a lot of experience
15:21and a long career in law
15:23of military operations.
15:24And I don't think so, frankly.
15:26Ignorance is not an argument
15:29by the judges
15:30of that regulatory body.
15:33You know very well
15:34Cases three and eight, right?
15:36Not only because she is the president
15:37from the truth recognition room,
15:39but because it has been close
15:41at the head of the reporting.
15:42We have seen in the Antioquia hearings,
15:44in those of Barranca Bermeja, for example.
15:46If I asked him to tell me
15:48What are the cases of obstruction?
15:50to justice for these types of acts
15:52in which they are related
15:54cover-ups of serious violations
15:55human rights
15:56by the criminal jurisdiction,
15:58military and police,
15:59What cases could you tell me about?
16:00Which ones have impacted you the most?
16:02in different parts of the country, magistrate?
16:03Many of those female military criminal judges
16:06They were women, actually.
16:07And they had a very close relationship
16:11with the military units.
16:13We see how many of them,
16:16And I tell it like this.
16:18because the soldiers didn't tell,
16:20The soldiers arrived, very frightened.
16:23to give some statements
16:25of alleged battles
16:28where they had not participated
16:30and they carried them
16:32because to give false statements
16:35about the crimes
16:37which were actually false positives.
16:38And these soldiers were very frightened,
16:40These judges told them
16:41Don't worry, I'm not going to ask him anything.
16:43Don't worry, here's the pro forma invoice.
16:45Here's what you have to say,
16:46Just say they shot at him from over there.
16:49"You were here," he replied.
16:51He used up so much ammunition
16:52And all of that was false.
16:54It also impacted me greatly,
16:56It's even a very powerful story.
16:59which was contrasted in a decision
17:02where, according to some of these soldiers,
17:06and other officers as well,
17:08one of these military judges
17:10arrived at the inspection of the body
17:14And he said, because supposedly the fight
17:16It had thus passed in 15 minutes,
17:18He said, this person is not dead.
17:20finish it.
17:22According to the stories they tell us,
17:24One person was killed
17:26and then yes,
17:28The judge carried out the lifting of the order.
17:31So, we have heard,
17:32Frankly, many stories
17:34of covering up the crimes
17:38where we even arrived
17:40in some cases
17:41to the verification of copies
17:43And that leads us to think
17:46that Colombia has made great progress
17:48and these extrajudicial executions
17:51they began to be investigated
17:52seriously
17:53when the government
17:58promoted an agreement
18:00with the Attorney General's Office
18:01so that the prosecutor's office could be involved
18:03the one who did the surveys
18:05of the bodies
18:06The investigations would begin.
18:08So, I do see it.
18:10with great surprise
18:13It's like, well,
18:14Why would we go backwards?
18:16two decades
18:17in the research
18:19of these crimes?
18:21And the presentation
18:23For the first debate, it says,
18:25No, the investigation
18:25The JEP will continue to do it,
18:27But why submit?
18:28to an automatic review
18:31of the High Military Court?
18:33Well, it's the higher authority
18:34of the entire scaffolding
18:35of military criminal justice.
18:37The decisions of the JEP
18:39Yes, it's very surprising.
18:41And well, right?
18:43One says, well,
18:44if we've been at it for two decades
18:46advancing the research,
18:48So why come back now?
18:49How to the starting point?
18:51But also,
18:52the project says
18:53It's suspended, right?
18:54The execution
18:55of the sentences
18:56while it is being done
18:57that automatic review
18:58by the Superior Military Court.
19:00Don't you think so, Your Honor,
19:01that would be
19:02unnecessarily prolong
19:03the wait
19:04of the victims
19:05that have been going on for decades
19:06just waiting,
19:07Too redundant,
19:08waiting for those guarantees
19:09of justice,
19:10TRUE?
19:10Repair.
19:11Even I have read
19:13some experts
19:15that they have said
19:15which would be a violation
19:16of the law
19:16to justice
19:17of the victims.
19:18There is a ruling
19:20condemnatory,
19:21For example,
19:22a sentence
19:22that arrives
19:23to the second instance
19:24condemnation
19:25with all guarantees
19:27of the adversarial process
19:28that would be suspended.
19:32It doesn't seem very reasonable.
19:35that it be suspended
19:36a sentence
19:36second instance
19:38that has produced
19:39as a process
19:40of all these years
19:42where the victims
19:43they have had to wait
19:44not only these years
19:46JEP's working group,
19:48but two decades
19:49or three decades
19:51of impunity.
19:52Because frankly
19:53these crimes,
19:54many of these crimes
19:55were archived,
19:57literally archived
19:59at the prosecutor's office.
20:00Me these days
20:01I heard a testimony
20:02of the sister
20:03of a person
20:04who disappeared
20:06forcibly
20:07in the eighties
20:09And he said to me,
20:10magistrate,
20:11you don't know
20:11how valuable it is to me
20:12that you return
20:13to investigate this case.
20:15I know,
20:15It's four decades
20:17of the murder
20:19from my brother.
20:21Me last
20:22that I learned from the prosecutor's office
20:23because it had been filed
20:24In my case,
20:24because the deadline
20:26research
20:27It had already been defeated
20:28and had operated
20:29the prescription.
20:31And he said to me,
20:32He doesn't know how valuable it is.
20:34which is to me
20:34that you can
20:35investigate this
20:36because I never understood
20:40Why the case
20:40He was never investigated
20:41at the prosecutor's office.
20:42And so it has happened
20:43with many cases,
20:45many cases
20:45that were archived,
20:47archived.
20:48When I asked
20:49the files,
20:50there are files
20:51which were a couple of sheets of paper,
20:53It never arrived
20:53not even
20:54to identify
20:55who were
20:55the alleged perpetrators
20:58and the JEP left
21:00Well, from all of them.
21:01those files,
21:02some files
21:04robust,
21:05It must also be said,
21:06in some cases
21:07no investigation had been conducted
21:08major thing,
21:09In other cases, yes.
21:11In other cases, yes.
21:12It also needs to be said
21:13that prosecutors
21:14in the nineties,
21:15people too
21:16very fierce,
21:17very committed,
21:18They had to leave
21:18into exile
21:19because they were taken
21:21the investigations
21:22thoroughly.
21:23So,
21:24I believe that Colombia
21:25has been doing
21:26Well, a lot of effort.
21:27so that these serious
21:29crimes are solved
21:30and we must
21:31complete that task
21:33with courage,
21:35with maturity
21:36and the JEP
21:38which means
21:38It's an opportunity
21:40so that those who
21:41participated
21:42in these crimes
21:43acknowledge responsibility
21:44and also
21:46those who
21:46then insist
21:48in their innocence
21:49They have a chance
21:50of an adversarial trial
21:51with all guarantees,
21:54in fact,
21:54well no,
21:55We are even criticized
21:56that's why
21:57because we have had
21:58Well,
21:59these sentences
22:00condemnations
22:01against officers
22:03by executions
22:04extrajudicial
22:05with the trials
22:07have been taken
22:07your time
22:08because they have,
22:09they have given it a chance
22:10to all the testimonies
22:11that have been required,
22:12to all the tests
22:13that have been required,
22:15Those are not judgments
22:16Well, politicians,
22:16They're not what they say
22:17the doctrine,
22:19no show trials,
22:20No,
22:20They are judgments
22:21really
22:21with all guarantees,
22:23with all the evidence
22:24very robust
22:25and a state
22:26by law
22:26Serious,
22:28rigorous,
22:28ripe,
22:29It must be guaranteed
22:30that justice
22:32to be completed
22:33and let it be done
22:33and never return
22:34to point zero
22:36of impunity
22:37well what was it
22:38military criminal justice.
22:39OK,
22:40you mentioned
22:40magistrate
22:41the topic
22:41of the decisions
22:42second instance,
22:43No?
22:43The boss is an organ
22:44closing thought
22:45for the conflict,
22:46has its own section
22:47appeals
22:48to solve
22:49second instance
22:49the resources
22:50against the decisions
22:51of the court,
22:52of the Special Tribunal for the Peace,
22:53of the section
22:54of recognition,
22:55of teaching
22:55of recognition,
22:56but the project
22:57says he does not intend
22:59let's say change
23:00that competition
23:01of closing organ
23:02on behalf of the boss,
23:03But if he leaves
23:04to a review
23:04to an instance
23:05external,
23:06Do you think that there
23:07would be
23:08modifying the competition
23:10or usurping
23:10the competition
23:11of the boss
23:12of being the closing body?
23:12Yes, the constitution,
23:14the legislative act
23:16that creates the boss
23:17It's very clear.
23:18And the competition says
23:19of the boss
23:20It's exclusive,
23:21These are the words
23:22that he/she uses,
23:22exclusive,
23:24exclusive
23:25and prevalent,
23:27prevalent,
23:28above all
23:29the other jurisdictions.
23:31I think so
23:32It's a real debate
23:34say,
23:35yes bring
23:36to criminal justice
23:37military,
23:38to the criminal court
23:39superior,
23:40superior of justice
23:42military penal,
23:42as an instance
23:44above
23:45from the boss,
23:46that will review
23:47automatically
23:49and with this guarantee
23:51to suspend
23:51the sentences,
23:52Well, if it isn't
23:53to not know
23:54the element
23:55of the prevalence
23:57from the boss,
23:58which is the element
23:59constitutional,
24:00the boss
24:01It is a jurisdiction
24:02exclusive,
24:03exclusive
24:04and prevalent
24:05about the serious
24:07crimes
24:07of the war,
24:08then one
24:09Yes, one can ask.
24:10Well,
24:10Why ignore
24:11prevalence
24:13from the boss?
24:14Is it being reformed?
24:16the constitution
24:16so that justice
24:17military prison
24:18is it the prevalent one?
24:20I would have
24:22frankly
24:23my doubts
24:24about that
24:25do not violate
24:26an essential pillar
24:28of the constitution,
24:29Well, that's the duty.
24:30to do justice,
24:31precisely because of the tests
24:33that there
24:34well, very abundant
24:35that justice
24:36military prison
24:37It wasn't
24:38precisely
24:39a space
24:40of investigations
24:41serious,
24:41impartial,
24:43swift
24:44serious
24:45violations
24:45human rights,
24:46but as
24:46I was saying a moment ago,
24:48well it was more like
24:49a mechanism
24:50of cover-up
24:51of those serious ones
24:52violations
24:52human rights,
24:53because justice
24:54military prison
24:54that is
24:55in the constitution
24:56and it is legitimate,
24:58is conceived,
25:00It's for crimes.
25:01tasks
25:02in the service
25:03military,
25:04the proper ones
25:05military,
25:06not for the serious ones
25:07violations
25:07human rights
25:08And that's the Court
25:09Constitutional
25:10He said it
25:10does more
25:1220 years old,
25:13repeatedly,
25:14consolidated,
25:16then I do
25:17I think it's
25:18like one,
25:19Well, a lack of knowledge
25:21of decisions
25:23very repeated
25:24both of the Court
25:26Constitutional
25:26as of the Court
25:27Inter-American
25:28Human Rights
25:29and from other instances
25:30of the United Nations
25:31that they have said
25:31the justices
25:33criminal
25:34military
25:35in Latin America,
25:36I mean,
25:36It's not a thing
25:37about Colombia,
25:38there is no case law
25:39about many other countries,
25:41about Peru,
25:41about Argentina,
25:42about Chile,
25:43about Central America,
25:44those justices
25:45military prisons
25:46They are not
25:47for the crimes
25:48crimes against humanity,
25:50nor the crimes
25:51of war,
25:52nor the serious violations
25:53human rights,
25:54They are for matters
25:55strictly military.
25:57You mentioned
25:58judges
25:58a moment ago
25:59the generals,
25:59And that's because
26:00among generals,
26:02colonels,
26:02etc,
26:03the JEP has sent
26:04to a maximum of 29
26:04responsible
26:05to the unit
26:05research
26:06and accusation,
26:07known as
26:08the Prosecutor's Office
26:09of the JEP
26:09for these cases
26:10of non-recognition.
26:13The experts,
26:14some experts
26:14they say that
26:15this project
26:16could lead
26:18to a cover-up
26:19of crimes
26:19promptly
26:20of these maximums
26:21responsible
26:22like Rito Alejo
26:23river,
26:24like Mario Montoya,
26:25that are today
26:26at the gates
26:28of a process,
26:29of a trial
26:29adversarial.
26:31What is your position?
26:32in response to that statement?
26:33Well yes,
26:34frankly,
26:35we have sent
26:3629,
26:39both some people,
26:41former members
26:41of the FARC,
26:42like the well known
26:43like the nurse,
26:44due to issues of violence
26:45sexual and abortions
26:46forced,
26:49like other tall
26:50officers,
26:51colonels,
26:52some generals,
26:53to the research unit
26:54and accusation,
26:55What is the Prosecutor's Office?
26:56Internal
26:57of the JEP,
26:58because they haven't
26:59recognized responsibility,
27:00having evidence
27:01very solid
27:02that compromise them,
27:03And I repeat,
27:0490%
27:05of the ancients
27:07members
27:07of the Army
27:09have acknowledged.
27:10We have sent
27:12to these generals
27:13that you mention,
27:15to the general
27:15Mario Montoya,
27:16Oscar Enrique González Peña,
27:18Luis Roberto Pico Hernández,
27:20the general
27:20Rito Alejo del Río,
27:22for genocide
27:22of the Patriotic Union,
27:24the general
27:24Iván Ramírez Quintero,
27:26as commander
27:27of the division
27:28in Antioquia,
27:29for allying
27:30with the paramilitaries
27:31and promote
27:32genocide
27:32also from the Patriotic Union,
27:35have already been sent
27:36to the unit
27:37research
27:37and accusation.
27:38That unit
27:39must decide
27:41if formula
27:42accusations or not.
27:43So,
27:44Yes, it's at stake.
27:45this second stage
27:47of the JEP,
27:47which are the processes
27:48adversarial,
27:50and well someone
27:52I could say,
27:53Frankly, that's how it is.
27:54that is being covered up
27:56to these people
27:57and that in that logic
27:59should resume
28:00the investigation
28:01of the Prosecutor's Office
28:02of the Criminal Court
28:03International.
28:03I believe that Colombia
28:06made a decision
28:07very ambitious,
28:09very serious,
28:10to do justice
28:12domestic
28:13for the crimes
28:14more serious
28:15of the war.
28:16Say,
28:16in Colombia
28:17we are capable,
28:18we have the will,
28:20the decision
28:21to investigate
28:22to these people,
28:22judge,
28:23sanction,
28:24And here we are,
28:26in Colombia,
28:27with judges
28:28and Colombian judges,
28:29with our resources,
28:31can,
28:32we are capable
28:33and we don't need
28:34the Criminal Court
28:35International.
28:36And the Prosecutor's Office
28:37of the ICC
28:38He agreed with us.
28:39Colombia
28:40It lasted 17 years
28:42in research
28:43preliminary
28:43in the Criminal Court
28:44International
28:45and when the Prosecutor's Office
28:47of the ICC
28:47He saw that the JEP
28:49She was serious,
28:50rigorous,
28:51that had the ability
28:53and the will
28:54to do justice,
28:54said,
28:55We're going to close
28:56the preliminary examination
28:57to Colombia.
28:57They closed it.
28:59with a memorandum
29:01of understanding
29:02where,
29:03well,
29:03the Colombian State
29:04commits
29:05a, well,
29:06respect
29:07the processes
29:07of the JEP,
29:08to guarantee
29:09independence,
29:10autonomy,
29:11the resources.
29:12So,
29:14Yes, one could say so
29:15with,
29:17let's say,
29:17important
29:19to submit
29:21the sentences
29:22condemnations
29:23of the JEP
29:24to the review
29:24of a court
29:25military penal,
29:27well,
29:27does not know
29:28the commitments
29:29from Colombia
29:30with the Prosecutor's Office
29:31of the Criminal Court
29:31International
29:32and that rather
29:33would show
29:33a lack of will
29:35that justice be done.
29:36And I believe that
29:37That would expose
29:39to the high-ranking officers
29:41and even to action
29:42of Justice
29:43International
29:43which is exactly
29:45contrary
29:46the purpose
29:48of the Peace Agreement,
29:49which was
29:49we are capable
29:50in Colombia
29:51to solve
29:51our affairs
29:53domestically.
29:54Last week,
29:55magistrate,
29:56four rapporteurs
29:56of the United Nations
29:57They sent him a letter
29:58directly to the president
29:59Abelardo de la Esprella
30:00showing him
30:01his concern,
30:02with quotation marks,
30:03worry
30:03for the projects
30:04related
30:05with the Jurisdiction
30:06Special for Peace,
30:07No?
30:07The one about the reduction
30:08of the 170 billion
30:10to your budget,
30:11the one who shortens
30:11his time frame: 10 years
30:13and this project
30:13What are we talking about?
30:14review
30:15by the Justice system
30:15Military Penal
30:16and Police.
30:17And they say
30:18which worries them a great deal
30:19that if approved
30:21that project
30:22is lost
30:22the balance
30:23among the demands
30:24of the victims
30:25and the guarantees
30:26to the appearing parties.
30:27Is it really
30:28at risk
30:29that it remains
30:30that balance
30:31in the process
30:32What is the JEP doing?
30:33Well, I think
30:33which is important
30:34And thank you.
30:36for doing it
30:37from El Espectador
30:38remember
30:40that communication
30:41of the four
30:41and four
30:43rapporteurs
30:44and rapporteurs
30:44international
30:45of the United Nations
30:46which people
30:47designated
30:47by the Council
30:48Human Rights
30:49of the United Nations
30:50the rapporteur
30:51on independence
30:52of justice
30:54the rapporteur
30:55on executions
30:56extrajudicial
30:57the rapporteur
30:58about the promotion
30:59of the rights
30:59to the truth
31:00justice
31:01and the repair
31:02and the report
31:04about this group
31:04work
31:05about disappearances
31:06forced
31:06and they communicate
31:08long
31:08I read it
31:09this weekend
31:11ten pages
31:12to the government
31:14Colombian
31:14a communication
31:15very detailed
31:16where they call
31:17attention
31:18about this project
31:19reform
31:20to the constitution
31:21among other things
31:22and they clearly state
31:24that way
31:24This would be
31:25unaware
31:26the advanced
31:28in terms
31:29of the obligations
31:30of the State
31:30Colombian
31:31in the treaties
31:33human rights
31:34regarding the law
31:36to justice
31:37of the victims
31:38and to duty
31:39that the State has
31:40to guarantee
31:40an investigation
31:42independent
31:43impartial
31:44celere
31:45and so
31:47what I said
31:49in the course
31:50from this conversation
31:51that justice
31:52military prison
31:53in the world
31:55in many decisions
31:57of these reports
31:59of the United Nations
31:59because it's not made
32:01to review
32:03judgments
32:04about crimes
32:05crimes against humanity
32:05so
32:06I think that
32:07That's a bombshell.
32:09which shows
32:09that we are not
32:11exaggerating
32:12when we say
32:13that is at stake
32:14really
32:16I think that what most
32:17It's at stake
32:17It's the guarantee
32:19of legal certainty
32:20of their own
32:21state agents
32:21those who
32:23could remain
32:24more exposed
32:25because of this decision
32:26would be
32:27their own
32:28general
32:29that eventually
32:30could be
32:30their cases
32:32could arrive
32:33even the very
32:34International Criminal Court
32:35or to others
32:36third States
32:36and these
32:37reports
32:38these four
32:39reports
32:40They're saying it
32:41in a way
32:41well, very rigorous
32:42very respectful
32:43It's a letter
32:44complete
32:45detailed
32:46which warns
32:47that this move
32:48to submit
32:51the decisions
32:51of the JEPA
32:52to justice
32:52military prison
32:53because it goes against it
32:54about what he said
32:56well instances
32:57international
32:57human rights
32:58in the last
32:59four decades
33:00Now to wrap things up
33:01magistrate
33:02You have been
33:03in the carpentry shop
33:04of everything
33:04what happens
33:06in the room
33:06recognition
33:07which then goes
33:08to the court
33:09for peace
33:09and what is
33:10the base
33:10of the decisions
33:11that today is
33:12at stake
33:12your review
33:13on the part
33:13of justice
33:14military prison
33:14and police
33:15If I asked him
33:16magistrate
33:17that he would give
33:18to Congress
33:19of the republic
33:20three arguments
33:21or three digits
33:22and a message
33:23to defend
33:25that the sentences
33:27against the members
33:29of the public force
33:29not be reviewed
33:30through this instance
33:31What would I say to them?
33:32I would tell them
33:34that more than
33:35five thousand
33:36former members
33:37of the public force
33:38have been welcomed
33:39voluntarily
33:40to the JEP
33:40They trusted
33:42in the state
33:43trusted
33:45in the JEP
33:45they welcomed
33:46voluntarily
33:47to the JEP
33:48three thousand
33:49eight hundred
33:49in all processes
33:51in which I participate
33:52have been sent
33:54as not maximums
33:55responsible
33:56three thousand
33:57eight hundred
33:59soldiers
34:00non-commissioned officers
34:01including some officers
34:02have been sent
34:03to the definition room
34:05legal status
34:05as not maximums
34:07responsible
34:08more than a thousand
34:09have already received
34:10the resignation
34:11to criminal prosecution
34:12And that's the model
34:14maybe
34:15sometimes
34:15No
34:16No
34:17We don't explain
34:18good
34:18like the
34:19the
34:20No
34:20the spirit
34:21and the
34:22the basics
34:23of the model
34:24what is
34:25the maximums
34:26responsible
34:27which is a universe
34:28In fact
34:28little
34:29are being investigated
34:30courts
34:31and of being
34:32found
34:33responsible
34:33well
34:33sanctioned
34:35but the immense
34:37mass of
34:37combatants
34:38flats
34:39both of the
34:40guerrilla
34:40as of
34:41army
34:42receive
34:43resignation
34:43to the persecution
34:44penal
34:44already more than a thousand
34:46ancient
34:48soldiers
34:49capes
34:50sergeants
34:51captains
34:51have received
34:52resignation
34:53to the persecution
34:53penal
34:54And I believe
34:55that they give us
34:56It's an example
34:57of maturity
34:59of courage
35:00to the whole of society
35:02Colombian
35:02and they show us
35:04the path
35:05to reconciliation
35:06I think that
35:06That's it.
35:06the other
35:07great
35:08find
35:09in the JEP
35:09is that the
35:10reconciliation
35:10is possible
35:11We've seen it
35:13and the media
35:13communication
35:14because they have
35:15They have reiterated it
35:16and transmitted
35:17many times
35:18because I believe
35:19which has been
35:19It's very exciting!
35:20and talks about what
35:21Colombians
35:22and Colombian women
35:22we are capable
35:23these men
35:25that they committed
35:26such serious crimes
35:26have been able
35:28to recognize it
35:30in front of the victims
35:30to say
35:31what they did
35:33explain why
35:35explain why
35:36show
35:38that today
35:39feel ashamed
35:40that are capable
35:41to reflect
35:43critically
35:44about the past
35:45we are not
35:46tied to the past
35:47can
35:49take it with a distance
35:51that past
35:52and reflect
35:53about why
35:54occurred
35:55those crimes
35:56and today
35:57are embraced
35:58for the victims
35:59and they have told them
36:00the victims
36:01I to you
36:01I forgive him
36:02because you
36:03has been able
36:04to count
36:04the whole truth
36:05to recognize
36:06your responsibility
36:07and actually
36:08That's the JEP.
36:09not only
36:10the counting
36:10the truth
36:11but the
36:12recognize
36:13responsibility
36:14and that
36:14recognition
36:15responsibility
36:16opens the door
36:17or to a resignation
36:19to criminal prosecution
36:20without penalty
36:22and like everyone else
36:23these thousand
36:25non-commissioned officers
36:26soldiers
36:27that can
36:28to rebuild their lives
36:29work
36:30integrate
36:31completely
36:31to the citizens
36:32without penalty
36:33or with a penalty
36:34restorative
36:35and the
36:36state agents
36:38have shown
36:38that this is a model
36:40possible
36:41which is a model
36:43So what does it offer them?
36:44an opportunity
36:44real
36:46and that I believe
36:48we would be wrong to do wrong
36:49in exposing them
36:50to justice
36:51international
36:53No
36:53distorting
36:54the model
36:56putting then
36:57as above
36:58of the JEP
36:59to the High Court
37:00Military
37:01It's Catalina Díaz Gómez
37:03president of the
37:04examination room
37:05really
37:05of the jurisdiction
37:06special for peace
37:07the JEP
37:07Magistrate Catalina
37:08thank you so much
37:09thank you for joining us
37:10in interviews
37:10of the viewer
37:11to you
37:11thank you so much
37:12thank you for the invitation
37:13to the entire audience
37:14of the viewer
37:14thank you so much
37:15by connecting
37:15with this interview
37:16for more information
37:17judicial
37:17Don't forget to visit
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