- 2 hours ago
A debate on the escalating confrontation between the opposition and the Election Commission of India focuses on opposition protests, voter deletions, Form 6 modifications, and an open letter from 42 former judges. Former Chief Election Commissioner O.P. Rawat noted that outside defence of the commission is unprecedented, stating that 'defending Election Commission\'s credibility, and getting outside support is unprecedented.' Rawat recalled accommodating opposition delegations during the 2018 assembly elections late at night and advised current commissioners to address issues directly. He recommended that the Election Commission engage the media alongside fellow commissioners to clarify contentious points, including Form 6 and procedural adjustments, rather than relying on external defenders. The discussion also included BJP spokesperson Charu Pragya, Congress national spokesperson Salman Soz, and political analyst Rashid Kidwai addressing judicial observations, administrative autonomy, and political perceptions.
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00:00Joining me on the show tonight, O.P. Rawat, former Chief Election Commissioner.
00:04We have Charu Pragya from the BJP, Salman Soz, National Spokesperson of the Congress,
00:09and Rashid Kidway is author and political analyst.
00:12I'm going to begin with you, Charu Pragya.
00:14Why is the BJP saying that the opposition is spreading anarchy?
00:20Because when you were in opposition, you also held protests.
00:24At that time, the Congress didn't say that you were anarchists.
00:30Maria, good evening.
00:31See, the difference between holding a protest and hitting the streets for something which is subjudice,
00:38which the Supreme Court has made its views very clear on, is very different.
00:42There is one thing which is called a peaceful protest.
00:45It is everybody's right.
00:46Yes, by all means, go all out, protest all you want.
00:50But a political statement cannot be equaled to a judicial finding,
00:56and that is the problem with the opposition today.
00:58In the name of protest, we see women, constables, policewomen being beaten up,
01:04being treated badly, touched inappropriately, elbowed in their chest, whatnot.
01:09Do you think that is a fair protest?
01:11Number two, I think the reason for this protest is now far, far away from what it started out to
01:18be,
01:18because today the most recent thing that has happened is 42 judges have actually written
01:23an open letter to the people of this country.
01:25They are asking the opposition that if you want to be in power, do it legitimately.
01:32Be a part of the electoral process.
01:34Convince people of what you want to do and what you want to stand for in a better way.
01:37This anarchy, this way of bringing the capital city to a standstill for three long days,
01:43that is not the way ahead.
01:44But the questions that are being raised by opposition can be answered and should be answered
01:53by the CEC and the two election commissioners.
01:55Why is the BJP jumping in and giving a clean shit to the election commission?
02:01No, BJP is first of all not jumping in and giving a clean shit to anyone at all.
02:05But what the opposition is trying to do is target BJP using the name of the election commission.
02:13Everything comes back to the BJP.
02:15And most importantly, Marianne, let me say this today.
02:17The petitioners went to court asking for one specific thing.
02:21The court saw it in their wisdom to not grant that.
02:24The CEC was not asked to step down.
02:26More papers have been sought.
02:28No, but the Supreme Court also said that the Form 6 modifications were not approved by them.
02:36Then who did it?
02:38At the same time, at the same time, Maria, the Supreme Court has also said that the election commission
02:44has its right to make adjustments if the SIR in its present form doesn't fit the present state.
02:50Okay, so let me bring in Salman Soh.
02:52Salman Soh's, you know, Charu Pragya was referring to that letter.
02:5642 former judges have written an open letter, and they are saying that attempts are being
03:02made to undermine election commission.
03:05And this is a very strongly worded letter where they have gone on to say that these allegations
03:10of vote theft are without any supportive evidence, and you are being seen as, you know, criticism
03:21is one thing, but you're trying to denigrate institutions.
03:27We're not—we're doing no such thing.
03:29I mean, of course, these judges are—ex-judges are, you know, entitled to their opinion,
03:35and we welcome all opinions, but, you know, there are probably hundreds, perhaps thousands
03:40of similar officers of the law who were completely opposed to what is happening in this country.
03:46A sitting Supreme Court judge actually made observations outside the court talking about
03:53how we should not be having mass disenfranchisement of voters in this country.
03:58You know, what exactly is this issue? There are about 13.4 crore voters who are not in the
04:05rolls anymore, and 70 percent of them, 70 percent of them have either been declared as permanently
04:11shifted or they're absent or untraceable.
04:14Maria, this is very basic. This is basic mathematics.
04:17If people have shifted, that means they've gone to some other part of the same state or
04:21they've gone—migrated to some other state. That means electoral vote rolls should not be
04:28smaller. They should be the same size, unless they've totally fallen out of the rolls.
04:35And I think that is a very, very serious question. Then you talked about Form 6. It is not me,
04:41but the Supreme Court has said that they did not authorize any such modification. And by the way,
04:46the Election Commission has two commissioners who have said that this modification was unauthorized
04:51and illegal. As far as the spokesperson of the Selection Commission of India is concerned,
04:57she talked about how this was subjudice, and the Congress Party and the Opposition India Alliance should
05:02not be going for protests. What she may not remember, maybe she wasn't around that time,
05:09that the BJP was protesting when the coal block allocation was in the Supreme Court.
05:15Yes.
05:16So what is she talking about?
05:17And there are visuals, and in fact, there is that soundbite of late Arunjit Li, which is now
05:22circulating on social media, talking about how the Election Commission must meet the opposition.
05:30They were, of course, in opposition then. So let me bring in O.P. Rahul.
05:33Just one, can I take 10 more seconds?
05:35Yes, please. Okay. Go ahead, Salman.
05:36Just 10 more seconds. The President of the BJP basically said that the Congress Party and
05:44India Alliance are trying to bash for infiltrators. Let me tell you, Maria, that if you take the number
05:50of people who are not in the rolls, and forget the dead people where we wish them, you know,
05:55we hope that they go to heaven. But the others, that population is pretty much the same population
06:01as the entire adult population of Bangladesh. Okay.
06:04Is the BJP President in something to the intelligence of Indian people?
06:08I'll bring in, because I need to get opening comments from O.P. Rahwat and Rashid.
06:12Let me be very quick, because very, very quickly, let me remind you that when you're talking about
06:16meeting the Election Commission officers, you did not put in a request, 240 people thought they
06:22could just march into the Election Commission office, and you would meet the CC. 240 people,
06:27really? Where would they even be accommodated? You didn't even ask for an appointment.
06:29Have you heard the soundbite of Mr. Jaitley, which is on social media today?
06:33Agreed.
06:33He's also saying 150 MPs of opposition, and the Election Commission is not meeting.
06:38After that, after that, the Election Commission also offered to send its senior most officer
06:43to collect the memorandum from the members of parliament. That didn't happen. And by,
06:49for the record, the MPs wanted to meet the CEC in parliament premises. This was not going to be
06:55happening in the Election Commission office. Nirvachan Sadhan, they went and sat inside Aakash Bani Bhavan.
07:01Do you have a right to protest? Yes. But do you have unrestricted right to occupy any road,
07:06enter any government building, take any route, gather any number of people? Are you allowed to
07:13manhandle and be physically violent with people? No, Charu, 300 MPs of opposition demanding a meeting.
07:22Election Commission can go an extra mile. And let me bring in former CEC, O.P. Rawat.
07:29No, let me bring in former CEC, O.P. Rawat, and ask him that question. O.P. Rawat, help us
07:34explain.
07:35You know, should we wait for these kind of formalities?
07:38I fully agree with you, Maria. This is defending Election Commission's credibility. And getting
07:58outside support is unprecedented. Never before in the history of Election Commission, any outsider,
08:05whether it is a political party or judges or retired judges, nobody had to take pains to defend the
08:12credibility of Election Commission. That is one. Second thing is, I remember when elections for
08:17these four states, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Tilingana and Chhattisgarh were being held. And the night at 11
08:25o'clock, I got a call from the opposition. Which year was this, sir? Which year? 2018.
08:31Okay. Go ahead, sir.
08:32That something wrong is happening in three states. We want to meet you. I offered them that it is
08:3911 o'clock in the night. If you want to meet the full commission, then it will be 12.30.
08:45That means
08:46next day. But if you are satisfied with only me, I can offer you to come to my residence,
08:52I will open my office, and we can sort out whatever problem is there. All of them came,
09:01whatever number they were, all of them came and they finished their talk by 11.45. And I
09:07rang up the collector, woke them up, and immediately resolved whatever problems they were facing.
09:13So, I think Election Commission must do this, that proactively, any stakeholder asking for a meeting,
09:20in whatever way, they should open their door and meet them, hear them out, and sort out.
09:25Mr. Rawat, you know, do you find this letter of 42 former judges, how do you look at it? I
09:33mean,
09:34that the signatories have urged political parties to pursue grievances through the means trust is the
09:41currency of democracy, and the letter has warned, questioning the attempts to delegitimize elections
09:46could fuel unrest and embolden anarchic elements. How do you look at all these developments?
09:53This is unfortunate, but opportunity to them has been given by the Election Commission,
09:58because the Election Commission must be able to defend themselves, must be able to keep their credibility
10:05above board. Why should outsiders do it for them?
10:11And what would you tell advice, I should say, Mr. Gyanesh Kumar? How can he hold a meeting of 300
10:19MPs?
10:20How should he and where should he hold the meeting? What would you tell him?
10:24There is absolutely no problem. I was also faced with a similar problem. When I said, okay, come,
10:29we will open one big hall in the Election Commission, only about 110 or 120 K, and I heard them.
10:38Wow. So, if it has happened in the past, Mr. Gyanesh Kumar can do it even today. And if it
10:43is about
10:44a room which can accommodate 120 people, where will those 300 people sit, sir? What's your advice?
10:51Go to Constitution Club? Actually, generally, they don't come, because assembling that kind of
10:59mass is very difficult. At that time, also, they were talking about 200, but they did not come.
11:06First, only 50, 60 people came, and then trickle to 100, 110.
11:12Okay. So, Charu, it has happened. Gyanesh Kumar should follow the past.
11:18I mean, precedence, which has been set by the likes of O.P. Rawat.
11:23Maria, see, I think here what is happening is multiple things are happening simultaneously,
11:29and we need to go back to what has been happening in the court, right? The core issue here is
11:34the
11:34SIR process. The core issue here is the letters and the report that Indian Express put out,
11:39which started everything. But after that, do we not remember that the entire Election
11:45Commission has put out a press release one more time where they have said that, yes,
11:49dissent is a sign of a thriving good democracy. But at the end of the day, the decisions that were
11:54taken were unanimous in nature. Number two, Form 6 was never altered, Maria. Form 6 had a supplement
12:00added. And even for that, the Honourable Supreme Court has made a very wise observation,
12:05and I'm going to read that out to you. It has said that Form 6 may not mechanically fit
12:09every situation. So there is a residual authority which the ECI retains to make an appropriate
12:15documentation framework so that operational ease increases, so that the use of OTPs and
12:21all those kinds of things, it becomes easier for the citizens. See, it's very easy to throw
12:25around a number of 13 crore continuously and say, oh, 13 crore people have been disenfranchised.
12:31At the end of the day, we have to remember that if there are people in this list who are
12:36deceased,
12:36there are people in this list who've got duplicate voting rights in various places,
12:39if they've shifted and this vote has been looked at from another angle, see the whole country's
12:44SIR is not over. You have to wait for the process to get over. And also at the end of
12:49the day,
12:49do you think you can hold the government to ransom, government authorities to ransom,
12:53independent authority like the election commission to ransom in a way like this?
12:57How is the government has been... One more thing.
12:58One more thing. One more thing. One more thing.
13:00Charu, what are you saying? How is the government being held to ransom?
13:06By saying that you are going to do exactly what we want because we are going to otherwise
13:11hit the streets and we will cause... But where does the government come in here?
13:15They are raising questions against the election commission, Mr. Gyanesh Kumar
13:18and his style of functioning. Where is the government coming here?
13:22That's an independent constitutional body. Constitutional body, yes. And that is what I'm
13:28expanding on. What has happened in our country currently with this opposition,
13:31is that it thinks that if they hit the roads, if they cause this kind of anarchy,
13:36they will be able to make anybody take any decision. This arm-twisting that has been going on...
13:41Okay, so your arm-twisting the government, Salman Sos, quickly respond.
13:44There is absolutely no word, no word on the way women constables have been treated continuously in the
13:52last two days. I agree. You have to condemn it. I'm condemning it. They should be treated with respect.
13:57Go ahead, Salman Sos. If I may, just very briefly, it's a very strange situation for us to have a
14:04ruling party member defending a commission that has actually made changes to a certain form,
14:13which is a statutory form, which is, by the way, the domain of the government. We have the former
14:17chief election commissioner here. He can tell us that you cannot really alter that form, form six,
14:22states, because that is ultimately done through the government. But here we have a representative
14:26of the ruling party, which is the government, saying that, no, the election commission has done the right thing.
14:32First of all, you are targeting my political party. Agree, but no alteration has been done.
14:39I'm sorry. This is very bad. I'm not defending the election commission.
14:41Why are you interrupting me? Did I interrupt you?
14:43But you cannot be misquoting me. You should be patient. No, you be patient. You be patient,
14:48because I heard you. I will wait. Okay, but you cannot be misquoting me. Please be patient.
14:52Please be patient. You cannot misquote me, though. But then you can come back and correct me.
14:58Because you are saying things which are totally, they don't make any sense.
15:01Let me bring in Rasheed Kidwai. Salman, let me bring in Rasheed and end with OP Rawat.
15:06Rasheed Kidwai, what we are seeing is, uh, the Congress party and the entire opposition is
15:12coming up with a surprise every day in this kind of a sustained, uh, fight against the election
15:19commission. I'm trying to understand what is the end game here. Because if it is about ensuring that
15:25you have the numbers for an impeachment motion, or if it is about the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court
15:32has said it clearly at the moment that there's no question of suspension.
15:37So, Maria, we must understand there is a legal aspect that is going on in the Supreme Court,
15:44and there is a political, uh, aspect. What we are seeing is a kind of, you know,
15:48age of protest, and there is a huge outrage that is taking place. And, of course, that has a total
15:53political dimension. I think we've missed, uh, Mr. OP Rawat made a very significant point here.
15:58He was, uh, alluding to a fact that the election commission has full legal team. It has many lawyers
16:05who are, uh, who are full-timers or consultant with the election commission, and they can themselves
16:12explain the election commission's position on a, on a, on a, on a point of law, on its, you know,
16:17action, etc. The election commission of present day, like it was in the case of Mr. OP Rawat,
16:23when he was chief election commissioner, you know, doesn't want to lean on or get, you know,
16:28support of any political party, meet opposition or, so to say, neutral, independent people, etc.
16:34So, this is something I think the BJP has, present day BJP has developed a neck of, you know,
16:39making simple things look complex. The, you know, the beating between the election,
16:43chief election commissioner and the leader of opposition could have been easily done. After all,
16:47Maria, we must understand, what is the job of election commission? Election commission's job is,
16:52as per the constitution, to hold elections. And therefore, in that scheme of things,
16:56they need to be, have a very smooth, cordial, and functional relationship with various political
17:01parties. And, see, the kind of opposition to election commission has always been there. I've
17:07seen opposition to the session, I've seen to Sampath, I've seen it to Mr. Rawat, Mr. Rawat,
17:12when he passed that kind of, you know, paid news, you know, directive or a judgment against
17:18Narutha Mishra. So, politicians don't like election commission. Here, we are seeing a
17:22very bizarre, a very unthinkable, and very unfortunate part. That, as if it's like, you
17:27know, the government and the election commission on one side, then the opposition on the other side.
17:32I think the BJP will do itself a great favor by, you know, removing this perception. After,
17:38it's all a matter of perception. That, Maria, you were asking me a question, where would it lead to?
17:42See, we do not know what happened in Bofors. But there was a perception that Rajiv Gandhi
17:47government had indulged in some wrongdoing. And in all these things, during Narsim Rao's case,
17:52every matter was subjudious. Okay, whether it was a fertilizer scam, sugar scam,
17:57Harshad Mehta thing. But the BJP built a very strong case that it was Alibaba-Challis Chor
18:01government. Similarly, they did it with, you know, the 2G and coal and all that. So, political parties
18:07are entitled to build this perception, which the opposition is doing. And it's for the BJP to fight it
18:12politically, not in that kind of, you know, breaking election commission to the fore.
18:17You know, the problem here is, as you said, Rashid, that there is an institution which is
18:23there between the BJP and the opposition. In those cases, like Bofors' perception or others,
18:30it was about the BJP versus the Congress directly. That's where the problem, I think, lies. That's why
18:38I'll bring in Opie Rawat and try and wrap up this conversation. Opie Rawat, the question really is,
18:44how should the election commission deal with this entire situation? And the protests are escalating.
18:49I'm going to highlight that.
18:51The election commission must take everything into their own hands, go out with all the two
18:57election commissioners or three together, face the media, tell everything, what transpired,
19:05what happened, how Form 6 was done or what additional things were added. All those things they must clarify
19:13to the whole public through media. Only then, everything will be clear. Instead of letting
19:20proxies to defend election commission and creating history, I don't think it is advisable.
19:26All right. Opie Rawat, thank you for your time. Charu Pragya, Salman Soz and Rashid Kidwai,
19:31appreciate your time here on the show. That's all from me. Thanks so much.