- 50 minutes ago
In an interview with India Today, Congress Rajya Sabha MP and Senior Advocate Dr. Abhishek Manu Singhvi defended the Congress Working Committee's demand for the resignations of Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar, Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and Home Minister Amit Shah. Singhvi stated, "Ultimately, he's the puppet of his masters," asserting that large-scale voter roll exclusions could not occur without political backing. He alleged that 13 crore voters disappeared from draft electoral rolls within a year and questioned the lack of transparent, machine-readable lists. Singhvi highlighted that the opposition had submitted impeachment notices against the CEC in Parliament and indicated that another notice is planned alongside public campaigns. Addressing questions on whether the party would consider boycotting polls, Singhvi noted such decisions rest collectively with the INDIA alliance while affirming the CWC's stand that the Chief Election Commissioner must step down.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00And joining me now is my newsmaker tonight. I'm joined by the Congress's senior MPCWC member and its legal eagle,
00:10Dr. Abhishek Manu Singhvi, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court with us.
00:13Dr. Singhvi, at your CWC meeting held today, Congress demanding not just the resignation of Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar,
00:20but also of Prime Minister Modi and Home Minister Amit Shah reportedly alleging that there is a vote-chory nexus
00:27and the vote-chory was organized by the CEC on behalf of the BJP leadership.
00:32Now, when you make such a serious charge, you must have evidence. You're a lawyer. You know better that than
00:38anyone else.
00:39Please tell us what is the evidence you have of direct political interference that the CWC, no less, should call
00:47for Prime Minister and Home Minister's resignation?
00:50Okay, now, allow me to answer your long question. Let me start by saying that it's very ironic that you
00:57have started not about the CEC, but about the Prime Minister and the Home Minister.
01:02We have no expectation that the CEC or Mr. Pradhan would ever resign on his own or be made to
01:09resign by the Prime Minister.
01:10What to talk of the Prime Minister or the Home Minister? Therefore, we have no expectation, but this is a
01:15political demand.
01:16However, the reasoning given is this. Do you really think, Rajdeep, that the scale of this rigging, the scale of
01:26this organizing exclusions of EROs,
01:29hiding from your own colleague commissioners, giving instructions suddenly out of the blue,
01:34No CEC prior to this incumbent has had such wide-ranging SIRs in such short times, deleting 13 crore people?
01:45Do you really think that this can happen without the political executive giving him full support?
01:51Do you really live in some cloud cuckoo land that when we said that you will be answerable in the
01:56criminal law after you dim it office,
01:58the government runs to give him a shield and a shelter of a legislation?
02:03Do you really think any constitutional position holder can be so brazen or egregious without getting full support,
02:11full instructions, full coordination?
02:13So, ultimately, he is the puppet of his masters.
02:16He has made the election commission. His puppet is a different story.
02:19But he is clearly by influence...
02:20That's a political...
02:22That's a political statement.
02:25That's a political statement and a political demand.
02:28I want to understand where...
02:30No, no.
02:31Where is the evidence...
02:32The CWC is a political body...
02:33Where is the direct...
02:34You know, people will say, is the Congress...
02:37No, no. Is the Congress tilting at windmills?
02:40My point is, y'all till the other day were calling for the chief election commissioner, Gyanesh Kumar's designation.
02:46Now you are escalating into prime minister and home minister.
02:49Absolutely.
02:49I am asking you, is this, therefore, about now the election commissioner?
02:53Or is it about the political leadership of the BJP?
02:56No, no, no, no, no, Rajdeep.
02:58You are making it about only the BJP political leadership.
03:02You did not start your question by saying, why is Mr. Gyanesh Kumar not resigning?
03:06Why does he have no shame?
03:08Then I gave you five reasons why, by inference, we believe that he is a puppet of his political leadership.
03:15Then you say that we have changed.
03:17Have we stopped asking for Gyanesh Kumar's resignation?
03:19We know that Gyanesh Kumar will not resign, so where is the question of prime minister and home minister resigning?
03:25But, and do you think that the CWC is some kind of a private club?
03:29Or is it a political body, apex body?
03:31So we are a political body.
03:33We make political demands.
03:34What is wrong in that?
03:36The CWC has said three things very clearly.
03:39Sir, you have got a CEC who has done unprecedentedly things which no other CEC, many of them, very compliant
03:52with the government, has ever dared to do.
03:55Second, we gave examples of that.
03:58Third, we said that he could not have done it.
04:01I gave you the same reasons, you ignored my reasons.
04:03He could not possibly have done it without clearly the backing of the top two people in this country.
04:09Clearly the protective shield of no action even after he retires, even after government's change, passed by legislation in post
04:19-haste pronto.
04:20Clearly he has had a very close association from Gujarat, from the cooperation ministry with the honourable home minister.
04:29These are all non-facts.
04:31You can't say that I said nothing.
04:34It is you who are ignoring my five answers.
04:36On those five answers, are you denying the locus to the CWC, a political body, to make that fair inference
04:43and call for the resignation?
04:45And what's the point of calling for the resignation?
04:47We are entitled to make a demand, but do you think anybody is resigning?
04:50Forget the people like prime minister and home minister.
04:53Do you think the CEC is resigning?
04:54Do you think Mr. Pradhan resigned?
04:56Do you think Mr. Pradhan resigned?
04:59Sir, I come back to it.
05:02It appears what started off, because there are a number of people who are raising serious legal questions about the
05:08way the election commission has been functioning.
05:11The newspaper report in the Indian Express also opened up the fact that there were serious questions of a divide
05:18on critical issues within the election commission.
05:21Now, the election commission says our decisions were passed unanimously.
05:25The election commission makes it very clear that while there may have been differences of opinion, none of these differences
05:33should be seen as being in the nature of any rebellion within the election commission.
05:38Therefore, I ask you again, has the Congress decided already that now that the constitutional, it's not about the constitutional
05:47issues anymore, now it's the political demand that you're making that you want to escalate this from Gyanesh Kumar to
05:56Amit Shah, as happened even with Darmendra Pradhan.
05:58Darmendra Pradhan, your initial demand was Darmendra Pradhan, then your demand during parliament session was Amit Shah Istifa though.
06:07I think your repetitive, unifocal questions, Rajdeep, are displaying a very fertile and febrile imagination that we have excluded the
06:20CEC.
06:22We are not the Gymkhana Club, we are a political party.
06:26If a political party consistently for the last one week asks for the resignation of CEC, makes it clear he'll
06:33not resign, and then in a CWC meeting calls for the resignation of the two chief people in this country,
06:39you think that can't be done without, are you a court of law?
06:42Do we have to come and argue and cross-examine somebody?
06:44And say that, look, we have this document, a video which says that in a dark, smoke-filled room,
06:51I recorded the prime minister telling the home minister who in turn told the CEC to do this.
06:55Is that the way politics work?
06:57What is the single comma, full stop, you can fault us for saying what we are saying?
07:02And do you really think that any chief election commissioner will be so egregious, brazen?
07:09So really, this is yours.
07:10You have suddenly deflected the debate away from Mr. Gyanesh Kumar.
07:13Whereas we are including Mr. Gyanesh Kumar and the other two.
07:17And, and, let me tell you that...
07:20Yes, but you are...
07:21Yes.
07:21The answer which came from the EC, if you want to ask me in legal terms, there is a saying
07:27there that if you answer partially or not at all or avoid a question asked,
07:33then it is a deemed admission.
07:35Everything which the express said, everything which I said in my press conference was admitted in the press release by
07:44the Election Commission and in the press conference of Mr. Samit Patra.
07:47Just give me 30 seconds, only 30 seconds.
07:49Four questions we asked, were the EROs excluded as written and the writing was unauthorized illegal?
07:58Was form 6 changed de facto?
08:01Was 16 lakh appeals filed?
08:04Now, none of those questions had any specific answer either in the press statement of the EC nor in Mr.
08:09Samit Patra.
08:10Now, if I ask you ABC and you give a blanket general answer from the mountaintop as if you are
08:16a feudal lord speaking of general mantras,
08:20it means an admission of these four points.
08:22So, on the contrary, your reply confirmed whatever I said.
08:26That's just the clear truth.
08:30Not a single nitty-gritty answer, not a factual answer.
08:33But you see, Dr...
08:37Dr. Singhvi, you know the law better than anyone else.
08:41If you want to remove a Chief Election Commissioner, assume that Gyanesh Kumar is not going to resign, there is
08:46no sign of that, is impeachment.
08:48A first notice was filed in the Rajasabha on March 12th, signed by 63 MPs, above the 50 required.
08:55Second notice in the Lok Sabha, March 12th, signed by 130 MPs, above the 100 required.
09:01Another notice on February 24th, signed by 73 MPs in the Rajasabha, above the 50 required.
09:08Gyanesh Kumar has gone nowhere.
09:09In fact, Parliament has refused to...
09:12The chair in both houses have not even accepted these notices.
09:16I therefore want to understand, I come back to it, are you tilting against a brick wall?
09:21Chalo, let's not call it a windmill.
09:23Are you tilting against a brick wall?
09:25How much further can you take this?
09:27The question is, how much further can your party...
09:30This is a political question now.
09:31How much further can your party take it?
09:33First and foremost, there is a vast difference between a windmill and a brick wall.
09:38Second, yes, we are tilting at brick walls.
09:41Who is that brick wall?
09:42The brick wall is one of obstinacy and blindfoldedness by the government of the day.
09:48Who has the majority?
09:50The three examples you gave validated my point, actually.
09:53You were actually unknowingly validating my point.
09:56We filed in a constitutional democracy.
09:58Can I come, catch you by the throat, and yank Mr. Gyanesh Kumar out of his seat?
10:02I have filed impeachment motions.
10:06A new one is coming shortly, I can say, with a certain amount of safety, although the India
10:10alliance will take a view on that.
10:12I can't commit to that.
10:14Now, there is stonewalling.
10:16There is neither a rejection nor an admission.
10:18Who does this?
10:19The majority of the day.
10:21Now, if in a democracy, you redefine democracy to mean that a majority of electoral votes validates
10:29every shamelessness you do, then you are right.
10:32You can say, I will not look to hell with your impeachment motion, to hell with your new
10:37impeachment motion also for that reason.
10:38These are new facts in the new impeachment motion yet to come.
10:41So what do I do?
10:42Should I take to the streets with a gun?
10:44No.
10:45Impeachment will go hand in hand with a complete concerted campaign by the India alliance.
10:50Do you know that, Rajdeep, in three days to five days, we had the statistic today in the CWC,
10:56900 events took place at district levels.
10:58What else is democracy?
11:01Democracy and the brick wall which you are talking about is on the other side.
11:04The new definition of democracy.
11:06We can do nothing but break our heads and stand bravely against the brick wall, I concede.
11:11That doesn't show the brick wall in very good light.
11:13It shows us in good light.
11:18How would you reply, though, in conclusion, to those who will say the Congress is blaming
11:22the election commission?
11:24Rahul Gandhi reportedly said there is EVM manipulation.
11:27It says now that the electoral rolls are contaminated, but at no stage the Congress will introspect
11:33and blame itself for its losses.
11:36The Congress doesn't want to introspect.
11:38You are looking outwards, but you are not willing to look inwards.
11:41This is again BJP's whataboutery, which you are articulating as a devil's advocate.
11:46Nothing but that.
11:48Rahul Gandhi has gone hoarse, shouting from the rooftops from the last four years.
11:53He gave you examples of Mahadevpura in Karnataka.
11:57He gave you examples of Maharashtra.
11:58He gave you examples of Haryana.
12:01He gave you example of Bihar.
12:03He sat with statistical charts.
12:05You don't get any response.
12:07You don't get machine-readable voter lists.
12:09You tell me one thing.
12:11If you were to ask for something that please notify the deletions in public domain.
12:16Please give us a readable printout of a voter's list.
12:21Where there are issues, have an independent inquiry.
12:23Are these rocket science questions?
12:25Are they very too much to ask in a democracy?
12:27Nothing happens.
12:29Now, Rahul Gandhi, today a lot of people are saying, has been proved right.
12:33A man who can do this, which has come out only partially,
12:37the tip of the iceberg in the file notings disclosed by the Indian Express,
12:41could have done much more.
12:42The very fact, Rajdeep, that 13 crore voters in less than a year have vanished from the list.
12:48Take one example given by the EC, which perhaps may have escaped a lot of people,
12:52including those who read the EC.
12:53Draft rolls, draft rolls.
12:54Sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, we must clarify this.
12:5813 crore have vanished in the draft rolls.
13:00All of them now can go and appeal.
13:02This is not the final roll.
13:04Sir, allow me, allow me.
13:05Let me answer.
13:06Let me answer.
13:07This is 13 crores.
13:0913 crores is 13 crores.
13:11And 3 crores more are going to be added within a few months.
13:14It will be 16 crores.
13:15The so-called appeals you talk about are less than 0.05% or 0.5%.
13:21What are you talking about?
13:23You know the figures from West Bengal?
13:25Is that an appeal?
13:26Okay.
13:27So you will reverse 25 lakhs out of 16 crores.
13:31Will Rajdeep start clapping?
13:32Will I start clapping?
13:34Now, the point of the matter is that why is it never before in 50 years, etc., 80 years, 70
13:41years,
13:41that you had such a massive exclusion?
13:43And why is it that you are not giving a single statistical answer to the figures and facts quoted by
13:48Rahul Gandhi again and again?
13:50Today, people are coming around to this view.
13:52So, of course, you see, there's no point fighting elections all the time.
13:56And then coming back saying that you are actually under your nose having vote jury.
14:01So, therefore, this is the heart of democracy.
14:03It's part of the basic structure.
14:05Can I?
14:08Can I ask you, therefore, in conclusion, did anyone in your CWC raise the question that if this continues, we
14:15will boycott elections?
14:17Was there even one voice?
14:18First of all.
14:19If you have no faith in the election commission and the election, chief election commissioner, then why even participate in
14:25an election which you believe is prima facie?
14:27An election that has been manipulated or supported?
14:31First of all.
14:31Was the voice there?
14:32I'm just asking you that.
14:34First of all, even if this was discussed or not discussed, you're never going to get it out of me
14:38as to what was discussed in the CWC.
14:41Number one.
14:41Number two, it has been discussed in the public domain earlier.
14:45It is above my pay grade and any average congressman's pay grade to decide this.
14:49It has to be a collective decision of a lot of parties.
14:53I'm not saying it's been taken.
14:55I'm not saying that India Alliance will agree.
14:57But this is one of the things discussed in the public domain.
15:00It's as simple as that.
15:01But real question you're not asking, Rajdeep.
15:03If you, have you ever in 80 years come to a stage on a television show, 80 years without television,
15:08with television and with today's television,
15:10have you ever come to even a stage of asking the question that parties might consider boycotting it?
15:16The real question you should be asking is that if parties have reached the stage of even thinking of this
15:20option,
15:21are we not in an abysmal definition of new India headed by Mr. Gyanesh Kumar, who appears to have no
15:28shame to ever resign?
15:30The very fact that this is being debated, not that it will be done.
15:34That is the real question.
15:37People, there have been BJP governments, there have been Vajpayee governments, there have been VPC governments.
15:41Have you ever thought of boycotting elections? Ever?
15:46You haven't had exemplary CECs all the time.
15:49Has anybody come near to the heights attained by Mr. Gyanesh Kumar?
15:53You ask his colleagues in the bureaucracy, you ask his predecessors CECs, you ask the election commissioners,
15:59and now you have it on file as to what his colleagues think of him.
16:04It stares you in the face.
16:07So net-net, so net-net what you're saying, the Congress Working Committee's resolutions reflect their determination
16:14to push for Gyanesh Kumar's resignation, because you believe he's unfit to hold the office,
16:20you believe he's not a neutral umpire, you will not go as far as suggesting that you will consider boycotting
16:27the election,
16:27but the very fact that I've raised this question, in your view, suggests where we've come in our democracy,
16:33but I will continue to, of course, raise the question whether the Congress Party itself
16:36is also going to look inwards and only outwards, because otherwise, it almost seems as if every time now an
16:43election is lost,
16:44the election will be delegitimized by claiming any election under Gyanesh Kumar's leadership is not a legitimate election.
16:51Am I correct?
16:52In conclusion, any election under Gyanesh Kumar's leadership, irrespective of all the clarifications he and the election commission have given,
17:01will not be seen as legitimate by the Congress Party.
17:04It will be seen as a vote-tory election.
17:06That is a distortion of the Congress stand.
17:08It is also a trivialization of a very serious set of actions which undermine democracy.
17:14Certainly, there are cases where, by arrangement, BJP may want us to win.
17:20BJP may have no stake in it.
17:23But certainly, every election is not necessarily the way you say it is.
17:27But certainly, every action a man like Mr. Gyanesh Kumar takes is suspect.
17:31And certainly, our raising it does not mean any blanket verdict.
17:34It means that the man must go.
17:35And any normal person by now would have gone three times over.
17:39And any normal political dispensation would have sacked, just like the education minister,
17:45not waiting for the water to go above your heads.
17:51Let me leave it there.
17:53Abhishek Manu Singh, at his combative best on the Gyanesh Kumar question,
18:01I appreciate you joining me.
18:03Thank you so much.
18:07Okay.
18:08Dr. Abhishek Manu Singhvi's stiff defense of the CWC stand.