00:00And joining me on the show tonight, Dr. Syed Zafar Islam, National Spokesperson of the BJP and former Member of
00:05Parliament, O.P. Rawat, former Chief Election Commissioner, is also joining us.
00:10Mr. Rawat, let me begin with you. You have been part of the Election Commission. In fact, should I say,
00:15you sat in that chair. Is dissent normal or is 14 on record objections a warning sign?
00:26Maria, this is perfectly normal for Election Commission's functioning because Election Commission, no individual commissioner has any power or authority.
00:38They have power only through Election Commission, the body. And the body has to function according to a law.
00:44Law says, all decisions of the Election Commission shall be taken either unanimously or by a majority vote.
00:54So, it will be presumed that all the decisions taken so far have been taken either unanimously or by a
01:03majority vote.
01:04The objection is notwithstanding because both Election Commissioners must be conversant with the law, must be conversant with the procedure.
01:13So, if any decision is recorded against their will, they knew that they have majority, they could have overruled and
01:21they could have decided other way.
01:24They were not supposed to go to Cabinet Secretary or to register their complaint somewhere.
01:30If at all they felt something seriously wrong is happening, the only course of action for them is to go
01:36to President of India.
01:37Because they function as an autonomous body, constitutional body, which works under President of India.
01:45Okay. Since you've made that important point that this is routine, that's where I'll bring in Dr. Syed Zafar Islam.
01:52Dr. Zafar Islam, this has become a political hot potato.
01:56With the entire opposition saying that the Chief Election Commissioner must resign, but also highlighting other aspects.
02:07That if two commissioners say that they are being bypassed, the opposition is asking a question, who is actually running
02:14the commission?
02:17Well, Maria, Mr. O. P. Rawat has very nicely explained everything.
02:23What is the authority they draw from the body?
02:27What constitutional rights they enjoy?
02:30And what is the decision-making process?
02:34And it is election commission, commissioner, they're all among equals.
02:39So it is either consensus or they can obstruct through majority.
02:46I think it's very nicely been explained by Mr. Rawat.
02:49So all the decision which has been taken, and that is the press release of the Election Commission also says,
02:55that deliberation is part of the decision-making process.
03:00So they must have been deliberated.
03:02All issues must have been, they must have a different opinion.
03:05I mean, there is no problem if somebody has a very different take compared to the other people.
03:10But as long as there is a meeting of minds and consensus there, it's a decision taken by everybody,
03:17and they have all been signatory to all the decision.
03:20Had that not been the case, perhaps they had the majority, two out of three,
03:26perhaps they could have blocked all the decision which has been taken by the Election Commission.
03:29But that is not the case.
03:31So all these arbitrary, they will, I mean, all the opposition will tomorrow or whenever the Election Commissioner
03:39will speak about it, they will stand exposed because the Commissioner must have taken dissent unanimously.
03:47And all these things are irrelevant when the dissent have been made and it is unimplemented.
03:54Because today, if they say that I have not been given the chance to,
04:00or my dissent has not been recorded or not been acknowledged,
04:05it's something which is factually incorrect.
04:07Because if there is a dissent of two people, they cannot make a dissent, the dissent cannot be taken.
04:12So it is absolutely baseless to make this kind of allegation.
04:15Let me bring in O.P. Rawat as well.
04:17O.P. Rawat, you know, throughout the entire special intensive revision exercise when it was undertaken,
04:22I had spoken to you on multiple occasions, you had flagged some concerns,
04:27and then you had spoken about the entire, you know, perhaps that was the need of the hour as well.
04:33And these objections, sir, is coming at a time when SIR exercise is being questioned repeatedly by the opposition.
04:42Here are two of the three commissioners saying that steps were taken without their knowledge.
04:49Is that really possible? Was that possible in your tenure?
04:55This must never be possible if you are in the commission.
05:00And if you know your authority, you are sitting there, you are functioning as a commission,
05:06all decisions are taken in the commission,
05:09no individual is authorized to take any decision relating to election, SIR, electoral roll revision, or anything.
05:15Only a few administrative powers are with CEC regarding transfer, etc. of their election commission employees.
05:22There are sanctions of leave.
05:24Only those administrative powers, financial powers.
05:27Not anything regarding elections or electoral processes, electoral systems.
05:32All those decisions have to be taken by the commission in a meeting by unanimous vote or majority vote.
05:41So, there is no question of that they are not knowing.
05:45And if any such thing has come to their notice,
05:48they must immediately go to President of India and complain
05:51that this is what is happening in the election commission,
05:54that even the law governing the working of election commission is being subverted.
06:01There are two election commissioners here, Sukbir Singh Sandhu and Vivek Joshi,
06:05who have raised 14 objections in 10 months.
06:09Unusual? Or do you think this is how it works?
06:13It never works this way because if there is any difference of opinion,
06:18election commission meeting is meant only to iron out those differences,
06:22bring about a consensus, or if a consensus is not possible,
06:25defer that matter.
06:27If it can be deferred for some time, no urgency is there.
06:31Or if urgency is there, then take a vote and decide it.
06:36So, that has been the process.
06:38There is no scope for the process of losing complaints.
06:41And here it is really laughable that two election commissioners
06:46having same opinion, having majority on their side,
06:52why should they go and complain?
06:53They should take decisions in the meeting according to their will.
06:58So, they should exercise their powers rather than complaining to the cabinet secretary.
07:04So, it is completely…
07:05Correct. Correct.
07:06In fact, going to cabinet secretary is bad
07:08because it gives a signal that you are still under the government.
07:12You are not.
07:13You are under only president of India, nobody else.
07:16But it also gives an impression as the opposition is reading
07:20that this is a clear example of CEC's misuse of power.
07:25Perhaps he is trying to control the entire power
07:27and the functioning of the entire election commission
07:29and not really believing in collegiality
07:32which has been the principle of any…
07:35the functioning of any election commission.
07:37Now, that is where I am saying
07:39that knowing the law is your duty
07:42because you are a constitutional authority.
07:44So, when you know the law
07:46and you know that two is a majority out of three,
07:50how can you give a handle like this to any CEC
07:53having dictatorial attitude?
07:55How?
07:56If you give it that kind of handle to him,
08:00then he is enjoying.
08:01Why should you complain then?
08:04Because you can take a meeting,
08:06decide and record
08:07and those decisions become final
08:10overruling everything else.
08:11Dr. Zafir Islam,
08:12here is a very unique perspective
08:14which is coming in from a former CEC.
08:16So, I want to understand from you
08:18because this is playing out in the,
08:20you know, political domain.
08:23You know, in fact,
08:24politicians are of the opinion.
08:26Arvind K. G.
08:26While you heard a soundbite,
08:27he says that all the elections
08:30which have been held
08:32under the CEC,
08:34Mr. Gyanesh Kumar,
08:36should be declared null and void.
08:38And that no election should be held
08:40now under CEC
08:42because there are states
08:43that are going to polls.
08:44Rahul Gandhi says that
08:45this is Desh Droh as well.
08:48I think Mr. Opi Rawat,
08:51his statement,
08:52I mean, I was with him
08:53on another channel as well,
08:55has bulldozed all those
08:56kind of statements
08:57which is coming from
08:58the opposition parties.
09:00Having said that,
09:00let me tell you very candidly
09:02that all the two
09:05election commissioners
09:06we are talking about,
09:08why did they,
09:09as he rightly pointed out,
09:11why did they write
09:11to cabinet secretary
09:13when the constitutional
09:15authority for them
09:16and the superior body
09:18is the president of India?
09:19If there's anything
09:21which they had to complain,
09:22they should have gone
09:23to president of India
09:24instead of writing something
09:26and politicizing now.
09:28I mean,
09:28if they are part
09:30of the dissent-making process,
09:31either you object then
09:32when you are,
09:33when you have,
09:34when you draw
09:35the constitutional authority
09:36from the constitution
09:37and the body,
09:37then you should exercise
09:39those powers at that time
09:40instead of making
09:41that statement
09:42or revealing
09:43those information now.
09:44When you have the authority,
09:46exercise it.
09:46When you know
09:47that something is going,
09:48wrong is happening,
09:49then you must stop it.
09:50But this is something
09:52which is more political
09:53if at all.
09:56I don't know
09:57authenticity of the report
09:58of what has appeared
10:00in the next press.
10:01But if they are feeding
10:03this thing
10:05to political parties,
10:06opposition parties,
10:07it will not work
10:08because they definitely
10:10will get exposed
10:11because they had the power,
10:12they didn't exercise the power.
10:14If at all,
10:14they feel that they were,
10:15they had dissent
10:17and that has not been
10:19acknowledged
10:19by the election,
10:20chief election commission.
10:21So all the political parties
10:23which are making noise today,
10:25tomorrow they will have
10:26to shut their mouth
10:26because they are
10:27on the wrong footing.
10:29They are making a statement
10:31which is factually incorrect
10:32and I am sure
10:34that at some stage
10:35the election commission
10:35will come out.
10:36I think I will give
10:37the last closing remark
10:38to O.P. Rawat, sir.
10:40Mr. O.P. Rawat,
10:41what will you be telling
10:42all the political parties
10:43which are saying
10:45that they stand vindicated
10:47today after this report?
10:50Political comment
10:51may be based on many facts
10:53because there have been
10:57blunders
10:58in the SIR process
10:59starting from Bihar.
11:01when pointed out
11:03election commission
11:04made amends
11:06tried to improve
11:07and corrected
11:09and then
11:09went through
11:10the whole process.
11:12Honorable Supreme Court
11:12also intervened
11:13at times.
11:15They also gave directions.
11:17So based on that also
11:18political opinion
11:19may be based.
11:21It may not be based
11:22only on this
11:23two election commissioners
11:25coming up with
11:25their 14 complaints
11:27and all.
11:27so there are
11:28other issues
11:29like West Bengal
11:30that is an eye-opener
11:32that you deleted
11:34their names
11:35and in appeal
11:3593%
11:37are found
11:38eligible voters.
11:39This is a blot
11:40on the democracy.
11:41How could you
11:43preside over
11:43a process
11:44where
11:46eligible voters
11:47to the extent
11:48of 93%
11:49got deleted
11:50from the electoral rolls?
11:53Those are the things
11:54which really
11:55give you
11:56disturbing signs.
11:58Okay.
11:58Okay.
11:59Mr. Rawat
11:59always a pleasure
12:00speaking to you sir
12:01because
12:01you had some
12:03very interesting
12:04observations
12:04to make today.
12:06So thank you
12:06so much for your time
12:07and Dr. Zafar Islam
12:08thank you for your time
12:09as well on the show.
12:10than Dr. Zafar Islam
12:10thank you for your time
12:10so much for your time
12:10you have a lot of
