- 10 hours ago
- #considerthis
Malaysia has been a party to CEDAW since 1995, but more than three decades on, translating that commitment into law and practice remains an ongoing challenge. With the latest CEDAW follow-up now underway, what does, and what should, progress on women’s rights actually look like? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Hiroko Akizuki, Member of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) and Melissa Akhir, SUHAKAM Commissioner & Women and Child Rights Advocate. The ‘Legislating Equality: CEDAW & Beyond — a Symposium on Legislative Reform for Women’s Human Rights’ was organised by the All-Party Parliamentary Group Malaysia (APPGM) on Gender Equality, Malaysia, Human Rights Commission (SUHAKAM) and the Bar Council Women’s Rights Committee (WRC), supported by the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade as well as Australian Aid.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:14where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. Malaysia
00:19has been party to CEDAW since 1995 but more than three decades on translating that commitment
00:27into law and practice remains an ongoing challenge. So today I'm at Wisma Badan Peguam Malaysia for a
00:34symposium which is organized by the all-party parliamentary group Malaysia on Gender Equality
00:39as well as Suhakam and the Bar Council Women's Rights Committee. With the latest CEDAW follow-up
00:46now underway, the question is what does and should be the progress on women's rights? What does that
00:53look like in Malaysia? So we're going to have that conversation with my guest today. I have with
00:58me Dr Hiroko Akizuki who is a member of the UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination
01:04Against Women, better known as CEDAW, as well as Melissa Akhir who is a Suhakam Commissioner and a
01:10women's and children's rights advocate. Thank you so much for joining me today after both speaking
01:16at the symposium. So if I may begin with you Dr Hiroko, let's start broad. Let's talk about CEDAW.
01:23For those who may not be so familiar with it, tell us what CEDAW is and what equality looks
01:29like under this convention. Okay, thank you very much for asking questions. The CEDAW convention
01:35is the international treaty which aiming at the complete equality between men and women. And then
01:44the purpose, the people usually think that discrimination on the law is prohibited, but the purpose of the CEDAW
01:54convention is not only the legal equality, but rather aiming at de facto substantive equality between men and women. So,
02:06not only we talk about the law, but also we look into the reality of the society, whether or not
02:13women are
02:14discriminated or not. Wow, so substantive equality. Can you give me an example of the difference between equality on paper
02:23in the law versus substantive equality?
02:25Okay, let me give an example from Japanese situation. In Japan we have, of course, civil law. And in Japan
02:33we have a system that married couple, husband and wife, has to have the same one family name. And then
02:42according to the civil law,
02:43we can freely choose either husband's name or wife's name. So on the paper, I mean, on the civil law,
02:53we have equality. However, if we look into the reality,
02:5894% of the married couple chose husband's name. So this fact clearly showed that Japan has a deep-rooted
03:07patriarchal family system in which women are actually discriminated.
03:13Oh, that's quite interesting. So, I may bring you in, Melissa. Malaysia has been party to CEDAW for, was it
03:2131 years now, technically, right? More than three decades. So, where do you think Malaysia stands, particularly in the case
03:28of equality on paper versus substantive equality?
03:33Yeah. So, thank you so much for having Suhaqam be part of this. And, of course, we work and engage
03:40with all parties in Malaysia, especially the rights holders.
03:43And when we say rights holders, for example, women who face multiple forms of discrimination. And sometimes, we have things
03:51that are in our federal constitution, says.
03:54Women are supposed to be treated equally before the law. Equal protection of the law cannot be discriminated just because
04:01of their gender.
04:02However, we have situations such as female genital cutting, where boys, when they are circumcised, there is a medical benefit
04:10to it. But girls who are subjected to this, there's no medical benefit to it.
04:15Right. So, when we say we have in the constitution, equal treatment, equality, however, it's not substantive on the ground.
04:23Right.
04:23Because of the social construct or norm of how girls are treated, compared to boys.
04:28That did cross my mind because this is, so we have the Article 8 of the federal constitution. Yes.
04:34I always wondered, if we already have that enshrined in our constitution, why is it that we are now also
04:39still pushing for anti-discrimination laws?
04:44Talk to me about how that changes. How do you get, why is it important that we have equality enshrined
04:51in the law?
04:52And how that eventually changes into substantive equality? Dr. Hiroko.
04:57Yes. I forgot to explain one more thing.
05:02The CEDAW convention is an international treaty which covers not only the political civil rights or the economic, social, cultural
05:10rights,
05:11but it also covers almost all issues which women are facing, starting from nationality or legal status or education, employment
05:25and poverty, climate change, whatever the issues are.
05:32Women are facing so many problems, right? So, we call that gender discrimination between men and women.
05:40However, we have many kinds of women. Women with disability, elderly women or refugee asylum seekers.
05:50So, people have different aspects of situations. So, not only tackling with gender equality, we have to tackle with the
05:59so-called intersectionality problems.
06:03So, in order to solve these problems, we have to have a comprehensive understanding of the women's rights.
06:14And then, of course, Malaysia has the federal constitution, Article 8, for the gender equality.
06:20However, it is only focusing on the gender discrimination specifically. But we have, you know, we have to cover comprehensively
06:32economic, you know, political and other aspects of the women's rights.
06:38So, therefore, we need to stand-alone, very comprehensive anti-discrimination law for women.
06:47What does it mean? So, Malaysia has been party to CEDAW for so many years.
06:51Yes. What does that mean for a country to be party to CEDAW? What do they need to do? How
06:55do they uphold their obligations to CEDAW?
06:57Yes. They have to implement the obligation under the CEDAW convention. We expected that. But according to the country, there
07:08are different legal systems.
07:10And the specific character with Malaysia has, Malaysia has different forms of legal systems.
07:17Right.
07:18Japan has only one single legal system. But in some countries, they have customary law, religious law, civil law system.
07:27So, if there is a civil legal system, it's very difficult to make them in line with the CEDAW obligation.
07:36That is the problem, I think.
07:37So, the Malaysian context, we've got civil, sharia, and customary. So, what have you observed, Melissa, in terms of how
07:46far we've come, where we're at, and the challenges of harmonizing to the CEDAW convention?
07:52Yeah. I really like the point that Dr. Hiroko said. I want to amplify it, but giving it the layers
07:58of Malaysian multiple, when we say identities, right? For example, we said gender. So, maybe people understand that as women.
08:07Okay.
08:07But also, what we haven't been able to put into the law, for example, women with disabilities. So, disabilities as
08:14a form of discrimination is not in Article 8, 2, for example.
08:18Two, if we think about indigenous women and girls. So, there have been, for example, submitted to the CEDAW committee
08:25in Geneva, where they said even in a situation of logging or rape, when there's a decision regarding girls being
08:33married in child marriage, nobody listened to what they wanted.
08:36Nobody asked the moms, where some of the penan indigenous group, for example, said that we wanted our girls to
08:44go to school, and they were on the way to school, and they faced the situations of rape.
08:49Right. And then, even worse, afterwards, they dropped out of school and are married off to, for example, the rapists.
08:55So, this is just one example of where, if we don't take care of the indigenous part, orang asal and
09:01orang asli, therefore, we are not taking care of all the gender aspects and dynamics.
09:08Right.
09:08In a situation where it could also be linked to where their access to land.
09:14Okay.
09:15And their rights as indigenous peoples.
09:17That's just one category. And these are some of the layers.
09:20Yeah, and it could be multiple identities intersecting, right?
09:24Yes.
09:24Okay.
09:25So, that adds another layer of complexity, but a lived reality for many people.
09:32Talk to me, Melissa, about what you've observed in the last 30, 31 years.
09:37Has Malaysia made significant progress in upholding our obligations under CEDAW?
09:43I know we've still got some ways to go, but maybe tell us some of the success stories that we've
09:49managed to accomplish so far.
09:50Yes. So, particularly praised by the CEDAW committee, there was praised that we are very good at legislating to pass
09:58the law.
09:58Okay.
09:59And I think it's timely before the next parliament session starts, right?
10:03Yes.
10:03Okay. So, we legislate quite well and especially in criminal laws.
10:08There's a lot where there's some that cover stalking, for example.
10:11And within that, there's supposed to be protection orders.
10:13And I told Dr. Hiroko that we are the first in the Asia-Pacific to have a domestic violence specific
10:19law in 1994 and passed in 1999.
10:24See how long ago that is.
10:26Wow.
10:26So, but the improvements and the areas of the gaps are the next steps of what we need to do.
10:31But that's the positive.
10:33Okay.
10:33Second part of the positive, outside of just about the law, on access to education.
10:38We have some of the highest qualification, qualified women in education.
10:43However, we also paired with that is after they've graduated, we have a quick, very drastic dropout in the workforce,
10:53in the labour participation area.
10:55Wow.
10:56So, we have successes, some of the highest in terms of qualification in secondary school, in public universities, for example.
11:03Okay.
11:04But we need to take care of their burdens, whether double burden or triple burden.
11:08Absolutely.
11:09Yeah, so they don't.
11:09Absolutely.
11:10I like that there are, you know, there's the successes, the wins.
11:15But then there's the kind of unintended, or you can see where the law doesn't do enough to change the
11:23substantive equality.
11:26Can we talk a little bit about that?
11:27Because there are, let's take an example of how, I don't know whether parliamentarians do this,
11:33but how do we measure whether legislation is actually upholding women's rights and promoting substantive equality?
11:43Should a legislation be measured or assessed before and after to see whether they're promoting women's rights or progressing equality?
11:53Is that being done elsewhere?
11:56Do countries measure their own progress or success in any kind of legislation that's been passed that promotes anti-discrimination
12:04equality?
12:05Yes, thank you.
12:05We, the CEDA committee, usually request the government to give us detailed data showing that, of course, each member look
12:15into the constitution or specific law to make sure that what the law tells us.
12:23And besides that, we request the government to give us the data.
12:26Okay.
12:27And then based on that information, we evaluate the outcome of the, we cannot look into the reality.
12:36But if we see the data, we can understand somehow.
12:41And then, of course, yeah, we continue to evaluating this progress or reverse progress.
12:51Actually, could you maybe give us a snapshot of Malaysia's standing?
12:57So the 2024 CEDAW committee had some observations.
13:01Maybe you can tell us where Malaysia needs, what Malaysia needs to work on.
13:06Yes.
13:07As Melissa told us, many countries prepare new law right before the dialogue to show we are doing this good
13:16job.
13:16But actually making law is, of course, very difficult, but we are not requesting making law.
13:23But implementing law and as a result to change the society to achieve the de facto equality and how women
13:34can be empowered.
13:37So we are looking into the reality.
13:39Okay.
13:39Yes.
13:40And so for Malaysia specifically, what were the recommendations or the observations from the committee?
13:46Yes.
13:47We made a lot of recommendations, but among them we selected four follow-up issues.
13:54Okay.
13:54Follow-up issues are, we consider that these four follow-up issues are high priority for Malaysia.
14:02And then a little bit easier to accomplish within the two years.
14:09Okay.
14:10So we recommended the, you know, accelerating, adopting anti-discrimination law bill and child marriage.
14:21Yes.
14:21Okay.
14:21And the FGMC.
14:23Yes.
14:24And finally the right of the refugee or asylum-seeking women.
14:31Ah.
14:31Yes.
14:31Okay.
14:32Melissa, these are high priority areas.
14:35Yes, it is.
14:37Talk to me about what you think.
14:40Have we done, made progress on this?
14:43I'm looking at the list and this is a really tough list to accomplish.
14:47I'm wondering whether we have made significant progress on these issues in the past couple of years.
14:53What do you think?
14:54Yeah.
14:54If I can also weave in your previous question because of monitoring and tracking.
14:59Yes.
14:59So one of the things I think with the constructive dialogue between the government or National Human Rights Commission and
15:06the CEDAW Committee is using the sustainable development goals.
15:09Yes.
15:09So because the SDGs, I'll say that in short.
15:13Yes.
15:13Because they have the targets and indicators.
15:16So of the four areas, for example, that Dr. Hiroko mentioned, under SDG 5 is on gender.
15:22And under gender, you can see there's a target regarding the amount of people or children who were married.
15:29Ah.
15:29So whether we have managed to reduce that.
15:32So coincidentally, Malaysia previously had a strategic plan on addressing that, right?
15:38So the progress made, if you wanted to hear, is that at least for Muslim marriages, two states already put
15:44the minimum at 18.
15:45Okay.
15:46Selangor and Kedah.
15:47However, there are exceptions.
15:48But I would also want to know whether we have the data for non-Muslim.
15:53I just mentioned just now, indigenous groups.
15:55Do we have the full data?
15:57Right.
15:57Right.
15:58And also, if we look at SDGs, number one is on reduction of poverty.
16:03Okay.
16:04Whether it's the situation of the family being the push factor for the child marriage.
16:09For child marriage, yes.
16:09So this is where, with SDGs, we can track some things.
16:13And of course, within the UN system, we are also collaborating on having the tracking and monitoring of human rights
16:19tools.
16:20And one of the form of it is in the form of human rights cities in Malaysia.
16:25So maybe if it's KL, so we heard that Subang Jaya is a woman-friendly city.
16:30Oh, wow.
16:31Yeah.
16:31So the indicators of that, how is that shown in Subang Jaya in terms of human rights?
16:36And for people living in there with all the multiple identities.
16:40That is wonderful to hear.
16:42Okay.
16:42I would love to live in a woman-friendly city.
16:45That's a selling point for property developers everywhere.
16:49Okay.
16:49Can I ask you about the handbook that's being launched at this symposium?
16:54And I think it's really important because maybe, as Dr. Hiroko you were talking about earlier,
17:00we often think about gender as just one layer, right?
17:02We have all these complexities, the intersectionality.
17:04How does the CEDAW handbook actually help with understanding our commitments to CEDAW
17:12and maybe progressing some of the commitments that we have under this?
17:16And who is it targeted for?
17:19Dr. Hiroko?
17:20Yeah.
17:21If you, can I?
17:22Yes.
17:24This is very useful information because it starts with the glossary.
17:30Basics.
17:31It goes back to basics.
17:32Basics.
17:33Definition of the discrimination.
17:35And it also explains what is the intersectionality.
17:39Basics.
17:40The purpose of the CEDAW.
17:40And if you see, it says, the purpose of the CEDAW.
17:47And also, it's explained how this CEDAW convention relates with ordinary woman too.
17:56So, every woman can utilize the CEDAW.
17:59And then the main target is...
18:03Yes, I can.
18:05So when Malaysia goes through, we became a party 31 years ago, right?
18:10And then we submitted two reports and then we also received the concluding observations
18:15which is full of recommendations to Malaysia.
18:18And in some of them, it's also to mainstream.
18:20Does everyone understand the points?
18:22So therefore, we didn't want to just have events.
18:25When we have symposium, we do have discussions.
18:28But maybe whether that's only tied to people in the room or that's only tied to whoever's online.
18:33So the handbook is we're trying to get everyone to speak the same language,
18:37understand the same terminology and especially on the four areas because there's a timeline.
18:43The government already submitted their report in July.
18:46And then we want to look at the four areas.
18:49How could we have discussions?
18:51So very much, Suhakam is working together with civil society
18:55and now also CEDAW community member.
18:58On encouraging after this, how do we monitor what is the realities on the ground
19:03after the government had submitted the report.
19:05So Melissa, you said government and civil society and the CEDAW committee.
19:09Where do politicians fit in?
19:11Because they're the ones who are going to be making the laws that address anti-discrimination and inequality.
19:17Talk to me about that.
19:18As well, tie in the fact that political representation is also something under the CEDAW.
19:24Yes, very quickly because you're right.
19:27The cover has a photo of the parliament building.
19:29Yes, that's right.
19:30So because when we say government, we mean all the institutions in the country.
19:34We don't just mean government officers.
19:35So for Suhakam, for example, we advise the parliament select committees on women
19:42regarding whether a law is discriminatory or not.
19:45Is it women's rights progressive or not?
19:47And within there, who do we advise?
19:49Are the parliamentarians.
19:50And when the parliamentarians are in there, they can even, for example, call for a public inquiry, a session,
19:58and put it in as a report and tabled in parliament.
20:02And that's where myself as a commissioner on gender and Suhakam are able to advise
20:07and we listen to who is the community facing the supposed issue of lack of equality or discrimination.
20:15Example, if it's indigenous women and girls where the rivers are poisoned, for example,
20:20and they complain, so the committee in parliament can hear it, submit a report.
20:26That report and also CEDAW can be tabled and debated.
20:31It hasn't been done yet.
20:32Okay.
20:32Whatever that was submitted in July hasn't been tabled.
20:35Has not been tabled yet.
20:36Yeah, so that's one role of the parliament.
20:37Can I very quickly ask you about the gender parity in political representation?
20:40Because I know the bill is in the works.
20:43We're still working on that and I think it's such an important piece of legislation to have
20:48to increase political representation in parliament.
20:53Talk to me a little bit about how CEDAW interlinks with it.
20:55And Melissa, maybe you can weigh in on Malaysia's.
20:58How difficult would it be to pass this type of legislation?
21:02Yes.
21:02Thank you very much.
21:03In the past, the CEDAW committee said that for the one country, you have to increase up to 30.
21:10And in the other countries, you better take the reach to the parity 50-50.
21:16But we now, recently we considered that this is not fair, saying a different thing to the
21:22different country.
21:23So two years ago, we decided by our general recommendation number 40 that is on the equal
21:31participation of women in the decision making.
21:33And it clearly said that every country has to aim at the 50-50.
21:38Oh, parity.
21:39Wow.
21:39Yeah.
21:40And I know that this is not realistic in some countries, like Japan or Malaysia, maybe.
21:46So I think we need some realistic strategy, encouraging people to attain 30%, which is
21:56the international standard, I mean, the aim.
21:59Then continuously, you know, talk about increasing until we can reach the parity.
22:09Melissa.
22:09Yes.
22:10I wanted to bring it to the regional and, of course, our country's perspective.
22:15So we are hearing numbers now, 50% and all that.
22:18And some people are saying whether this is a Western idea.
22:22It is not.
22:23Okay.
22:23We are in Southeast Asia.
22:25And in Southeast Asia itself, if we think about ASEAN, the newest member of ASEAN, Timor-Leste,
22:30then it should get 50%.
22:32Timor-Leste has 50% representation?
22:34Yes.
22:35Therefore, and they even have a youth parliament, for example.
22:37Yes.
22:37That's another area.
22:38But we now have a youth parliament, but we are behind.
22:42And here, I know I'm talking to you, but I do want to address all the leaders of the
22:46political parties.
22:47Remember who your voters are.
22:49And if in ASEAN countries, most countries have had a top political leader who is a woman
22:55and the country didn't crash and burn.
22:58It is possible.
22:59Now, I think we are doing progressive realisation step by step.
23:03So that's why it's 30%.
23:04And the laws that the, positively I will say, but the MPs, male and women MPs are coming
23:10together.
23:11And they actually received when the civil society marched to parliament and they presented this
23:17bill.
23:18And this was put in a report and the report was tabled in parliament.
23:21Now is the next step.
23:23If you want to listen to us, and now I'm talking about myself also as a voter, if you want
23:28to
23:28listen to us, this is how we want to see ourselves represented and seen in terms of the August
23:33House of Parliament.
23:34Absolutely.
23:35And it's the right time for it because it's election season, isn't it?
23:38So in the couple of minutes that we have left, I do want to ask the both of you, what
23:41are
23:41you hoping, what message would you like to leave with our audience today, particularly
23:45around CEDAW and what you'd hope to see Malaysia prioritise in the next coming period?
23:52Very important that we get this done.
23:54There's an urgency to it.
23:55Dr. Hiro.
23:56Thank you very much.
23:57The CEDAW committee needs help from civil society in every country.
24:02So I encourage civil people to help us.
24:06I mean, helping meaning giving us information, sending report, telling the reality.
24:13And not only we are asking for the help, but I would like to say that the CEDAW convention
24:19is very useful for women to get their own right.
24:24So, and then also the other thing is that through our dialogue with the Malaysian government,
24:30it is webcasted by UN.
24:33So, and then it is recorded.
24:36So whenever you want to see, you can see the dialogue.
24:40It's there, our record.
24:42Yes.
24:42Yeah, yeah.
24:43So I want you to know CEDAW and utilise us.
24:46And how it affects us on a daily basis, right?
24:49Wonderful.
24:49Melissa, you have the last one.
24:50Yes, and because you mentioned the government, I want to pick that up.
24:54We come here with open arms to discuss.
24:57It's not just to critique because SWAKAM's role is also to provide recommendations.
25:01Let's say the national embodiment of the CEDAW committee.
25:04So what we want to do is we want to sit together, have a dialogue with all government agencies
25:10that are relevant, and within there, maybe we can understand the constraints,
25:15but also what is doable and realistic for the government agencies.
25:19We hope to see them in November.
25:21Oh, brilliant.
25:21On specific areas, which is the two priorities on harmful practices,
25:25child marriage and female genital cutting.
25:27Okay.
25:28Just how do we have the latest data, evidence on the ground,
25:31and why practices that are not beneficial to people has to be overcome.
25:37Definitely.
25:38Well, November's coming up.
25:39Hopefully, we can get something going.
25:41Thank you so much for sharing your insights with me on this show.
25:45I appreciate your time.
25:46Okay.
25:46That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
25:49I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
25:51Thank you so much for watching.
25:52Good night.