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Author Margaret Atwood once wrote, “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” Despite writing that 44 years ago, the realities of violence against women remain disturbingly relevant today. To mark this year’s International Women’s Day, the Women’s Aid Organisation has just released a new policy brief examining the state of Intimate Partner Violence in Malaysia. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Nazreen Nizam, Executive Director of Women’s Aid Organisation (WAO), and Zati Hanani Zainol Abidin, Senior Advocacy Officer, WAO.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. The author
00:20Margaret Atwood once wrote, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid
00:25that men will kill them. She wrote that 44 years ago but unfortunately the realities of violence
00:32against women remain disturbingly relevant today. So today as we mark International Women's Day,
00:39I'm here at an event where the Women's Aid Organization has just released a new policy
00:45brief examining the state of intimate partner violence in Malaysia. And joining me to discuss
00:51this topic are the good folks from WAO Executive Director, Nazrin Nizam and Senior Advocacy Officer,
01:00Zati Hanani Zainal Abidin. Thank you so much for joining me on the show today ladies. I'm going to
01:05begin with you Nazrin. Maybe start our conversation. I think there are a lot of people who may think
01:12intimate partner violence is something of a private matter. It's a matter between a relationship of two
01:19adults. It's a harumah tangga. When you hear this, what is it that you want to correct about this
01:26misconception? What is it that we need to understand about intimate partner violence as a public policy
01:33issue? Yeah, I mean when I hear things like this obviously it anger me because the reality is not such,
01:41it's not just a family issue, it's not a relationship dispute. Domestic violence or violence against
01:48women is a structural issue, you know, and we can see there's a lot of gaps in our society when
01:55it comes to
01:56domestic violence, gender-based violence, right? And yeah definitely we need to look at this beyond
02:07health care, health care, health care, and all that kind of things, you know, it's a crime. Domestic violence is
02:17a
02:17crime. We have a domestic violence act that stipulated that domestic violence is a crime.
02:23Is there a difference between the way, say the law defines domestic violence and intimate partner violence?
02:29I think you came up with this wonderful policy brief. So talk to me a little bit about what our,
02:37how do we,
02:38how should we understand what intimate partner violence is? So intimate partner violence is like the
02:43bigger character, the bigger group. So like domestic violence for married partner is part of intimate
02:48partner violence. But in Malaysia, unmarried partners is not considered in the partners under the domestic
02:57violence act. So this unmarried partners, maybe like boyfriends, girlfriends,
03:04friends, fiancés, they are not recognized under this act. Yeah, so however like in technically
03:09they are intimate partner. So same goes as the couples that are married. So the dynamic is that the power,
03:17the power, what's called the power dynamics? The power dynamics are still there in the relationship,
03:23right? So that's why we wanted to have it under the DBA as well. Because violence can happen
03:29regardless of your marital status. Absolutely. And that's what we are saying in our policy brief,
03:34you know, violence happens, it does not depend on your marital status, you know, but unfortunately under
03:41our domestic violence act currently, it do not cover people who are not married. Okay. I think because of the
03:50work that WAO does, I guess supporting survivors of gender-based violence, can you maybe walk us
04:00through what a survivor goes through when they want to make a report? And I'm quite curious because
04:06let's say a survivor comes forward, what is their, what tends to be their first point of contact? Is it,
04:12is it the police? Is it NGOs like yourself? Is it a medical setting? Paint a picture for me.
04:19Hmm. I mean, honestly, I think it depends, you know, there's not one size fits all or all the cases
04:26are
04:27the same, right? Because some survivors, they may have information about WAO or other NGOs and then they
04:35will contact us first. But some of them, I think their first point of contact would always be the police.
04:41Okay. Because they felt that, okay, something happened to them and they want to make a report
04:45about this because they need help. Who do they go to? It will be the police. Unless if there is
04:50a physical
04:51harm, meaning if they're hurt, there's injuries, you know, then I think that they most probably would
04:57go to the, uh, hospital lah, you know, one stop crisis center. So let's say if they come to us,
05:04they contact, uh, WAO, what we'll do is we will, we will hear their cases, you know, and we will
05:10ask
05:11them what is it they want to do. Because we need to understand not all survivors are ready to make
05:17a police report. Okay. Just like that. It's not straightforward, right? It's not straightforward.
05:21Maybe it's easy for us to say, oh, why you didn't just make a police report? But we need to
05:27understand
05:27that everyone is going through a different mental state. It's not the same and we cannot compare what,
05:35how we would react to how the survivors would react, you know, especially when they are in a traumatized
05:41situation. Maybe they just left the home with their children, you know, with nothing, uh, no,
05:48no barang-barang, whatever, just like important documents and stuff like that. And they don't
05:53know what to do now, you know? So we walk through with them like, okay, these are their options.
05:59Because of course we do not make the decision for them. We will tell them that, okay, you have option
06:04A, you have option B, you have option C. Now think about what is best for you and your
06:11children. So yes, yeah. The children come into play as well. Of course, because mothers, you'd never,
06:16hardly I hear cases of mothers just running away by themselves. Mothers always run away with their
06:23children, you know? And often children in those environments are witnesses to domestic violence,
06:31partner violence. Yes. So like just now, when we talk about the challenges of children getting the
06:39protection order is because the way we see it is, okay, there is a direct survivor, but that's also
06:47indirect survivors, because not all the perpetrators, like for example, in a situation where the
06:53perpetrators are the fathers, they will hit the children, not necessarily. Sometimes they have a
06:58very good relationship with the children, but the children become indirect survivors because they
07:04witness the harm that was inflicted upon their mother, okay? And that also traumatized them, right?
07:14So in this situation, we also have to look into the children's well-being, okay? So then when the mother,
07:24let's say they make a decision that they want to make a police report, then we will assist them with,
07:31you know, drafting the police report and stuff like that. So they have some assistance, some kind of
07:37companionship to help them. Correct. So when they call us, and we need them to call us because sometimes we
07:44do have third party, for example, that say, oh, my kakak ke, my adik ke, my colleagues and everything,
07:51then we'll say, okay, we hear you, but can you please get the survivor to call us?
07:55Because we need to speak directly to the survivor. Why is that important? Because we need to establish
08:01consent, okay? Because we cannot help them if they do not want to be helped, you see? So when they,
08:10when we speak to the survivor themselves, and then the social, they will be assigned a social worker.
08:17So the social worker basically will go help guide them lah, daripada A to Z. Okay. You know,
08:25what is it that they want and everything, you know? So if they come to stay with us at our
08:30shelter,
08:31then we will give them the counselling, and then all the case management support,
08:35daripada police station, hospital, JKM, sometimes school, because the kids need to like transfer school,
08:42local, things like that, you know? All these sort of things. I've met some of the social workers that do
08:48this work today here at the event, and they've been wonderful. They are amazing. So much passion,
08:53in service of, you know, sisters who need help, right? Let's come back to legal protections and what,
09:01what we have, what frameworks we have to protect survivors of intimate partner violence, of gender-based
09:09violence, domestic violence. Malaysia has the Domestic Violence Act, Zati. And I think there's
09:16also several other legislations, right? The Anti-Sexual Harassment Act. I think there's several
09:22sections in the Penal Code as well that looks at this. Why do you argue that these protections are not
09:29enough? Why does, where does the Domestic Violence Act fall short? Okay. So when we refer directly to the
09:36policy brief, then we want to enact the, the, the, the, the, the section, the section two, section two,
09:41when it comes to the definition of, like, who is the victim. So, um, so for example, in checked.
09:50Um, okay. So, uh, we want to define, define again the definition of domestic relationship. So before this,
09:59the definition of domestic relationship is wife, husband, mother, father, like, uh, family members.
10:06Family members, okay. Yes. And also, they also recently added, uh, ex-husband as well as, um, yeah. So,
10:13they also fall under the domestic act violence. Ex-pelsus. Ex-husband and ex-wife. Yeah. So, um,
10:21uh, so that's one of the amendment that we want to push. And another thing that we, actually, the elements
10:28under the DVAs is quite good because the, it gives access to, um, the EPO, Emergency Protection Order,
10:36the IPO, Interim Protection Order, and Protection Order. However, among our, like, um, experience in case
10:44management and also our clients, we find there's a lot of challenges in accessing that, uh, services
10:50or, or, or, that kind of protection. Yes. Oh, okay. Let's talk about that. So, so a couple of acronyms
10:57used to use, uh, protection orders. There's an emergency protection order and
11:01Interim Protection Order. Interim Protection Order. I have heard, um, comments that, oh,
11:07we have these tools. They are, um, essential tools in, to provide some security to survivors.
11:14When you say there are challenges, talk to me about how effective they are in practice. Okay.
11:20So, uh, for first thing, the, the, the EPO, the Emergency Protection Order, so it will, um,
11:28released by the social, the Welfare Department, Jabatan Kebajikan Masyarakat. So, um, however,
11:36it only lasted for seven days. But the good thing is, is you, uh, it's supposedly does not need a
11:44police report in order to get that. Okay. So, someone will assess the situation. Yes.
11:49Deem there to be an emergency and then issue some welfare officer. Yes. Okay. And then issue an EPO.
11:56Yeah. It's, that's only for, like, if there's a physical violence or a threat, uh, to hurt someone. Okay.
12:02Yeah. And then the interim protection order is while the investigation is going on. Yeah.
12:09During the investigation, when the police officer opened the investigation paper. Okay. And what do
12:15protection orders mean? Like, what, what, and how is it different from, uh, is it a restraining order
12:21that I often hear being referenced in films? Yeah. I mean, it's similar. So, protection order,
12:27basically what they do is they will give, they will put it, they will, uh, describe in the protection order
12:34that, okay, you cannot go near to, uh, this person, uh, like 200 meter near to this person. Uh, you
12:44cannot, uh,
12:45go to the workplace and there will be an address. Right. Uh, you cannot, uh, you need to leave the
12:52marital home, residence, that kind of things, you know. So, that is what protection order is.
12:59Okay. And what happens if there are gaps in those protections, if there are breaches of the protection
13:06orders? Has that been, uh, I see you nodding. Yeah. I mean, I'm sorry my face, right? I'm sure this
13:12has been,
13:12um, um, an ongoing issue. Yeah. So, basically, that's the thing, like, what Zati said, right? Um,
13:17we may have the law, but it's not enough to just have the law. The enforcement of the law,
13:25the implementation of the law is also very much important because otherwise it's just going to be
13:31a piece of paper. This is what I've heard our survivor, our clients say, you know, because they have,
13:38like, made many, many police report, get a protection order, you know, tapi, you know,
13:44they could not get that protection, right? Because the perpetrator can still come near them,
13:51uh, kacau them and their kids and stuff like that. So, do protection orders also cover children?
13:59Yes. Okay. This is why it's important because you see in the protection order, like what I mentioned
14:05just now, they will stipulate that, they will describe that, like, the protection order, uh,
14:11you cannot go near the working place of, uh, this person, the name, the IC and the address.
14:19It's not going to be the same with the protection order for the children because the protection of the
14:24children would have other specific terms, right? Like, you cannot go to near the school or you cannot, like,
14:31you know, come near 50 meter or that kind of things. So, that's why each person needs their own
14:40protection order. Yeah. So, tailored to the individual circumstances. Correct. I see. Okay.
14:47Okay. Wow. It becomes a lot more complex in this way and I can only imagine this is quite daunting
14:52for
14:52survivors. Very much. Has that been the case? Is that, is, is that where WAO can help step in to
14:59provide some,
15:00some assistance in through this journey? Yeah. So, we will assist survivor to get a protection order
15:05as well, you know. So, like, the social worker will guide them with all the necessary documentation
15:12and everything, uh, in order to apply for the interim protection order. Yeah. I mean, I, I truly appreciate
15:21the work that you have been doing, not just at today's event, but, but in the years and decades
15:27past. But when we think about how this information is going out there, I am quite curious to know
15:34how both of you feel about the role of men and boys, um, in how do we, how important, first
15:43of all,
15:43is it that we engage them? And what does that engagement look like meaningfully? The reason
15:49why I ask is, as if we were to focus on intimate partner violence, right, um, the, say the dating
15:56stage, the boyfriend girlfriend stage, the fiance, um, I read a recent survey that young men, Gen Z men,
16:05uh, one third of the respondents, you know, this Ipsos global survey, now feel that the wife must obey the
16:16husband.
16:17Yeah. This is twice as likely as the boomer generation. Yeah. Which is quite shocking to me. Very shocking.
16:23I guess the rise of the manosphere and the, that, those, um, narratives online. But how do you see it
16:30both?
16:30Both of you. I'm quite curious to know your work translating into engagement to men and boys,
16:36particularly young men and boys. Yeah. Um, Zafi. Okay. Um, so, um, it has been a problem since,
16:42like, many, many years because, um, we still live in a society that's, um, still promote, um, the,
16:51what's it called? The victim blaming attitude. And also, um, even our study, like, only half that,
16:59against attitudes that, uh, supporting violence against women. Half of the respondents,
17:06Malaysian, like, uh, half of Malaysian, only half that, um, that is against attitudes of supporting
17:14violence against women. So, another half is supporting it. Yeah. Either neutral or supporting it.
17:20But when it's, this is the survey in 2021. Yeah. You know, so, in that survey, of course,
17:25the neutral, uh, those who take the, not taking the position to oppose. Yes. Right.
17:32So, we can see it as supporting. So, does, does your work translate into engaging men and young
17:38boys? Yes. Yes. So, I'm, you know, a very good question. I'm very happy you asking me that
17:43question because this is the work that we're going to embark this year in 2026, uh, of engaging men
17:51in, uh, gender-based violence prevention. Wow. Okay. So, we will work, uh, we receive a funding,
17:59uh, basically, uh, to do this program, male allies program, where we will work with, uh, young men,
18:08young, yeah, young men. I would say young men, you know, uh, we haven't identified the participants yet,
18:15but we have identified the area. It's going to be in Selangor, where we will, uh, talk about,
18:22you know, what is gender, what is gender-based violence, healthy masculinity, you know, healthy
18:29relationship, and that kind of thing. Because it's very, very important to engage men in this
18:35conversation about gender-based violence and domestic violence. Because otherwise, nothing will change.
18:41Yeah, yeah. You're missing half of the population. Correct. Because every time we talk to women
18:45about, okay, what's your rights, and you know, how you can be more empowered, what can you do,
18:50how you recognize violence, how you respond to violence. But if you don't talk to the man, of
18:55telling them not to be a perpetrator, then, sampai bila pun, we will still have the cycle of violence
19:01continuously, you know, it will just continue, you know. So, when we want to talk, how we want to
19:08approach this is like talking to men and looking how there can be a gender transformative behavior
19:16or attitude. Which is one of the things that has really resonated with me in this event was you
19:22screened a video about active bystandership, right? So, I loved it. It started with, if nothing else,
19:30if you can't do anything else, start with way bro. Call it out. Yeah. Have other men call out the
19:37behavior of other men. Very important. Very important. I just stress that point about why it's
19:43important that we are active bystanders. It comes back to my first question. Instead of saying, oh,
20:00how you see and how you would encourage our audience today to be active bystanders. Definitely. I mean,
20:05like, the issue of domestic violence or issue of gender-based violence is not a women's issue.
20:11We can never see it as a women issue. It's the nation issue, you know. It's the society issue. It's
20:19a cancer, a pandemic in our society, you know. So, everyone needs to play their role for us to end
20:30violence against women. And definitely men play a very, very important role, especially talking to
20:36other men, right? Because sometimes maybe men, they are good men and they don't do. They are the green
20:43flags. But then if you are not telling off your other red flags friends, then the red flags will
20:54stay red flags, you know. We want more green flags. Sometimes silence is also a complicity. Definitely.
21:03That's why I mentioned in that survey, when people put neutral, when they don't want to answer yes or no,
21:09when you say neutral, that means that show that is that show your position. Yeah, neutral is a
21:15position. It's a position. It is a position. When coming from the male allies program, it's also
21:21important to talk to especially youth because there will be the next like the frontliners, the police
21:27officers, the one that taking cases, the magistrates. So, their view on how gender equality and also
21:35how they view gender against women, violence against women also important. Very important. That's why we
21:40want to focus on the young people. So, that's your next wave. I can see this already happening.
21:45It's coming, it's coming, it's coming. We did like a, sorry, we did like a small, a pilot project actually
21:53in 2022. You know, we received some funding. So, we did a pilot project. So, now we're going to go
21:58all the way out. Okay. So, now is the time to go gangbusters. So, that's something else that I'm
22:04curious about. You've got this policy brief that you've put in so much work and what I also like
22:09about it is there's data, right? So, this is data that policy makers can use as evidence. Zati,
22:15what are you hoping is the next phase of the policy brief? What action are you hoping will come up
22:22from
22:22this? So, after we've published this policy brief, I hope that it will gain interest from policy makers and
22:30I'm sure that if they understand how important is this this issue and the legal gap that we have today
22:38that it will push into a policy change that will help more women and girls to help to get protection
22:46from violence. Basically, this policy brief is a beginning of a new campaign for WAO. There you go.
22:53There you go. You know, it's a new campaign. I'm encouraged to see elected representatives attending today.
22:59Yeah. So, after this, we will reach out to like the MPs and other civil society organization as well
23:06and media friends, you know, to basically talk about the issue of intimate partner violence more.
23:15And in the time that we have left, can I just ask you very quickly, if someone today is watching,
23:21what would you tell them if they suspect or they think that they may be in a situation of intimate
23:29partner violence? Are there signs they can recognize and are there steps that they can take if they want to
23:36embark on that journey?
23:40Signs that they can recognize? See, a relationship should be healthy and respectful. You know, I know we live in
23:50a
23:51society or in a culture where there is an expectation for women to be obedience.
24:04And if you say something against your partner, that will be seen as disobedience. So, I think that this is
24:12something that we need to re-look at. You know, what is it that we mean by obedience and disobedience,
24:19and this kind of things. So, what you can actually, I think there are many signs. Women always know, actually,
24:27they can always feel when things are not right. It's just like maybe you do not have the language
24:36to articulate it. Or maybe you think that it's a norm because I've seen this happen in my own family
24:43members. My mother went through it. So, if I'm going through it now, what's the big deal about it?
24:50You know? So, this is the thinking need to change. To know that, okay, this is not acceptable. Yes, I'm
24:58a wife,
24:59I'm a woman. But that doesn't mean I deserve to be treated like this. Right? So, when that thing
25:06happened and you think that you need help, of course, you can always call us. WAO is always here. Our
25:13hotline
25:14number is that 03-3000-8858 or you can WhatsApp us 018-988-8058. For Tina, which means,
25:25think I need assistance? Yes. That one, think I need aid. 8-8. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So, you can WhatsApp
25:31us
25:31because not everyone comfortable to talk on the phone, right? And if you're not sure, you can just ask.
25:37You can, it's not like you call us, maksudnya lepas tu, dah besok kita pergi police station. No, it's not
25:41like that.
25:42You can just ask the social worker, you know, like, okay, this is my situation. What is it, you know?
25:48Sometimes people maybe just need a counselling because they do not know what to do, you know?
25:54Or even if you don't call us, you can call other NGO. You can speak to your trusted friends,
26:00trusted family members. Just to seek help. Yeah. And also, seek help. So, I think when it comes to sign
26:07of a relationship, violence, one of it is social isolation. I think that's one of the big part that
26:14when your partners are starting to remove your support system from you, then it's like one of red flags
26:21that you have to aware of. Yeah. Because like when the violence happens, you have, you no longer
26:25have support system that you need. Yeah. Because the, he already, or the partner already like
26:29removed your social support. Yeah. Can I just add a little bit thing? Sure.
26:32We also need to understand that violence doesn't happen only once.
26:38You know, there is a cycle of violence. This is also why we need to understand the thinking
26:44of the survivor as well. Because sometimes people judge survivor, oh, why you didn't just
26:48get help when, when the violence happened. But there's a thing called cycle of violence where,
26:53you know, there's tension, and then there's eruption, and then there's honeymoon.
26:59So, this cycle sometimes can happen like maybe as long as like seven years before a survivor,
27:08you know, reach out for help. You know, so we just need to...
27:11So, at no, and no matter at what point, you just have to be there and be patient and...
27:17Support. Be there, be present, right? Yeah.
27:19Thank you both so much for shining a light into this. I think it's really important.
27:23And I'm glad that we've had this conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much, Melissa.
27:27That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
27:30I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching, and good night.
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