00:23I was managing and still do manage the Dorotty column which is the guitarist
00:26in O'Reilly. A friend of mine was managing a group called Joy Division and had some friends
00:30from Sheffield called Cabaret Voltaire and we knew a comedian and we decided to do a double
00:36seven inch EP which was the first commercial double seven inch EP since Magical Mystery
00:40Tour and that was our first release with those with the John Dowie the Comedian, Cabaret Voltaire
00:44from Sheffield, Joy Division and my own group with Dorotty Column, that was our first release.
00:54To begin with, the only label that would have been interested in me in the first place is
00:59there was no other record label in 1978 would have touched me with the barge pole. I mean,
01:06the stuff I was doing was just sort of completely different to the stuff that was required,
01:12the stuff that sold. So it's always been the case that Factory is probably the only label
01:17that I could survive on.
01:39In the early days, it was very, very hit and miss and it was, I mean Tony and I were
01:47Alan and Rob Gretton, the manager of Joy Division. They were like mavericks and they were booking
01:55the system and basically taking the mickey out of making fun of the record industry and playing
02:06games. I would say that the whole thing was like a game too, an adult game.
02:13Before we opened our own club, the Hacienda, we kind of, in fact, before we even had a record
02:17label, I wanted somewhere for Vinnie, my guitarist, to play and we were bought by the clubs in
02:22Manchester, this was in 78. We borrowed a club in Yume, which was a black club, borrowed
02:29it on a Friday night, called it The Factory. Nothing to do with Andy Warhol because one of my partners
02:33saw it saw a sign on the wall thing, Factory Clearance. I called it The Factory and it became a
02:37very
02:37successful, the most successful post-punk venue in this city. That's through 78, 79.
03:05I first saw Joy Division as Warsaw, maybe early 77, mid 77. I first saw Joy Division as Warsaw,
03:12at the Electric Circus, which was the punk club in Manchester, where the pistols played and
03:17flashed and everything. And I thought they were a pile of noise and an extremely interesting
03:23lead singer. This guy that we used to see at all the gigs, he had a green combat jacket
03:31with hate on the back, which I thought was very interesting, having hate on your back, sort
03:36of on your mind, I suppose. And it was Ian. And because we used to see him all the time,
03:40we
03:40just got talking, found out he was in a group. And it was just like a common, that was your
03:45common ground. So when we started the two groups, he had a vocalist, he was a vocalist
03:50with a guitarist. We were a guitarist with a bass player, both after drummers. And we
03:55couldn't join because both had guitars. So we let that go on for a bit and we advertised
04:01for singers. And we got a drummer, who was a real turkey, and he's still with us. Only
04:06jokies, do you? We got this, we went through a succession of drummers. And then what happened
04:10was, was Ian's band split up. We met him again at a gig and he just said, oh, we band
04:15split
04:15up. And he said, oh, well, that's it. You can be our vocalist.
04:25So that was sounds like the bus, we just hit that with just a pipe. And look after he'd
04:35come right to the head, go mental. And you can score. And they say well, that's it.
04:48He wasn't a depressive person at all. He was a really up, happy-go-lucky person and he was a
04:53real laugh and he liked a good time. And we just did it just to have a laugh, you know.
04:59But we took the music extremely seriously. You know, we all loved music. That was very important to us. But
05:06Ian was no means of a depressive person, as a lot of people think, from his music. It's just that
05:15after we'd been going for about three years, we played at the Hope and Anchor in London and he'd been
05:22fine up until that point.
05:24Then on the way back, he just had a fit in the car. He had an epileptic fit in the
05:30car. He'd never had one in his life before. He was only like 22 or something.
05:34And we took him to the hospital and said, yeah, he's had an epileptic fit. And after that, he just
05:40got it really bad and he started getting it more and more.
05:42Apparently, you're either born with it or you get it in your very early 20s. And the doctors just, I
05:51mean, the cure for it at that time was just to dose someone up with barbs.
05:55So he was on really heavy barbiturates all the time and that just changed his whole personality. But there was
06:03nothing we could do about it, you know. Nothing.
06:09And then when he got ill, obviously we realised he was ill, but it's just because you were young, yourselves,
06:16you're just, you know, youth like that, you don't give a monkey's.
06:19And you tended to let him look after himself, which is a shame.
06:23What we learnt by age was that sometimes people do need looking after.
06:27But unfortunately, we were all too young at the time to be like that, so you're lost.
06:32We're rooted by its heart and a mission to go home.
06:39And his anger dies and lies and lies, but emotions won't grow.
06:46And we're cheating on the way, taking the truth and the rules.
06:52And love, love will tear us apart again.
06:58Love, love will tear us apart again.
07:05It's mostly perception that Hamlet is heavy and gloomy.
07:09In fact, Hamlet is an enormously exciting player.
07:13Joy Division were enormously excited to watch, even to listen to it's exciting.
07:19So I've never really understood that.
07:21I can understand that there is a romantic melancholy and there is sometimes a deep seriousness or whatever within there.
07:28I never find that boring or gloomy.
07:31I find that exciting and gripping.
07:38We always felt that you should write songs about something important rather than something trivial.
07:44You know, because we were that type of band.
07:47We weren't a pop band.
07:58In fact, we had a sound when Martin Hannett was its producer.
08:01Martin Hannett's snare sound was one of those things that producers do every year, year and a half.
08:06There's one producer somewhere in the world who changes the way pop music sounds.
08:09And Martin Hannett, the late Martin Hannett, did that.
08:14The only era of music I've ever liked, I've always liked fresh stuff.
08:17The Beatles when it was fresh, the whole rock period.
08:21I went up to university in 1968, child of the revolution.
08:25And there, and punk.
08:27I mean, always, it's that part of music that excites me.
08:31When it's new, when it's fresh, when people haven't heard it before,
08:34which is usually a bit tough because usually they don't like it
08:36because people only like what they've heard before.
08:38So it's working on the difficult end of the business.
08:40This is why events are going to be
08:43They find it all a different story
08:46Don't take the wheels after me
08:50Don't give me the time to what this time
08:53All she has is what to hold me
08:57Then again, the same old story
09:00Don't travel along so quickly
09:03Travels with me towards this time
09:08We decided that if one member of the band never left
09:11that we would change the name anyway
09:16But the actual name came from Rob
09:18He read it in a book about
09:21Prince Sianuk of Cambodia
09:24He was reading a book about that
09:26And he got it out of that
09:34Joy Division was flirting with it anyway
09:36Very important
09:37With synths and drum machines and stuff
09:39And also songs like Isolation
09:41A very, what you'd call sort of disco
09:43I mean, it wasn't difficult at all
09:47It was quite natural at the time
09:49It was just hard sorting out the singing angle
09:51Yeah, it was through like Steve and Bernard
09:53being very, very interested in technology
09:55And what that technology did was
09:57Gave you the freedom to make records
09:59I think that the way Factory
10:04Has built its relationship with bands
10:06There's been a series of accidents
10:08And coincidences and things
10:11There's been nothing really terribly planned
10:14I don't think
10:15Although Tony would probably disagree
10:17And say he had a great master plan
10:19Right from the start
10:20But I don't think there was one
10:21I think there was an overall philosophy
10:24But that's about all
10:26My up some song
10:27My easy way out
10:29And the way we end Palatine
10:30I've been criticised for it
10:32You know, we're aware of the future
10:33We live in the future
10:34And yet I put a very old song at the very end
10:37Which is Atmosphere by Joy Division
10:38There is something so transcendental about that track
10:41I always say that
10:41Being the guy who signed the cheque
10:44To pay for the labels on that record
10:46Is one of the great privileges of my life
10:49Being in any way involved with a piece of work like that
10:52I find very difficult still to come to terms with
10:54So Atmosphere is my easy way out
11:12The world inside us
11:19Don't turn away
11:24In silence
11:27Your confusion
11:30My illusion
11:34Walk like a mask of self-hate
11:40Confronts and then dies
11:43Walk away
11:47You can't die
12:02You can't die
12:15Walk like a mask of self-hate
12:16Walk like a mask of06
12:16When you're strong
