She Thought Her Husband Was Selfish—Years Later, She Realized the Truth

Cliff Buell

After nearly 40 years of marriage, Michelle Lentz shares the lessons, mistakes, and biblical principles that have helped her build a strong and lasting marriage. In this conversation, we talk about respecting your spouse, avoiding temptation, navigating conflict, and why Christian marriage requires more than a 50/50 mindset.  Connect With Michelle Lentz here: Website (get her book here): https://www.heybeginnerwife.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heybeginnerwife YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UC1uQXs0jKyhbVPsQTskOsCQ   Are You Going To Heaven OR Hell?👇 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzmENeLZzb4&t=2s  All Important Links: https://linktr.ee/cliffbuell  Become A Channel Member: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3ap1CNrpXD-O0wWPANhQvw/join  Connect With Me: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CliffBuell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cliffbuell/ Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cliffbuell  #christian #jesus #god #bible #reaction #marriage #family #husband #wife #faith #traditional  FAIR USE DISCLAIMER This video may contain copyrighted material that has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Such material is used for purposes of criticism, commentary, news reporting, teaching, research, or education, which constitute “fair use” under Section 107 of the Copyright Act. I do not claim ownership of any copyrighted material used in this video. All rights and credit go directly to their respective owners. This content is transformative in nature — adding new meaning, commentary, or context — and does not substitute for the original works. If any copyright owner has concerns or would like material removed, please contact me directly and I will resolve the matter promptly.

Transcript

00:00I really thought to myself, wow, I wonder if this is how affairs start. I felt like he was

00:06selfish when he was at home. Looking back on it, I think I was too hard on him, which

00:12right now breaks my heart because if I think of him working that hard to provide for us,

00:17marriage is not about being fair. It's not about 50-50. You go through life and you become

00:23soulmates. He's become my soulmate. All right. Well, I'm here with Michelle Lentz. It's such

00:29a pleasure to have you. She is a veteran when it comes to marriage advice and just being

00:37a mother, a wife. Man, I'm very blessed to have you on here because I know personally

00:43I will be learning some things as well. I know that there are many people who can benefit

00:48from this as well. Before we get into all of that though, Michelle, just introduce yourself

00:52a little bit. Tell us how you even got into teaching people about marriage and why you

00:58think it's so important. Just talk about your faith and we can get into that.

01:03Yeah. Great. I have been married for 40 years in two weeks. We're going to celebrate our 40th

01:10anniversary. Congratulations.

01:12Thank you. It's a milestone. It sounds like a milestone. It feels like a milestone. It's

01:17pretty exciting. We got married when we were 24, so kind of in the same age range that you

01:23were. We both wanted a large family. That was one of the things that drew us to each other.

01:28It was kind of unique to find someone else who thought that that was a good idea.

01:33And by the grace of God, we ended up with six children. So we did raise a large family.

01:38We have three boys and three girls and they're all in their 30s now and we have nine grandchildren.

01:45So we are learning what it means to be grandparents, which is a whole new game. Didn't know what that

01:51was going to be like. But for whatever reason, I think it was just what God, how he wired me.

01:57I've

01:57been drawn to marriage since junior high. I've just noticed married people. I listened. I perked up.

02:05I was always observing. And in high school, I was listening to the things my mom was listening to

02:11by default. And she was listening to, at the time, focus on the family. It was brand new.

02:16She had it on all the time. And I thought it was fascinating. So I just really looked ahead to

02:22the

02:22day that I would be married. And that was my aspiration was to be a stay-at-home mom and

02:27a wife.

02:29Went to college thinking, you know, I want to learn more. I love learning, but really assuming

02:34I'd meet my husband there. And I didn't. So I did meet him after we graduated. We went to the

02:40same

02:41school, but didn't cross paths and was able to start on my dream career, which was wife and mom

02:47and continue to enjoy marriage even after we got married. So I just was always reading books and

02:54listening and learning and asking questions and trying to figure out what it looked like to be a

03:01good wife, which meant I was pretty intense as a new young wife. I was more intense than my husband

03:06deserved. So he just would say, Michelle, just relax and enjoy being married. And I think, well, I want to

03:15get it right. I want to get the foundations right. So when I was, when it seemed right, when my

03:22kids were in

03:22high school and stuff, I volunteered in the youth group and I had girls over in our home for small

03:26group, just checking in with them, seeing what life was like, what are your relationships like?

03:31What do you guys want to do when you get married? And it was really sad to hear a lot

03:36of them didn't

03:37even think about getting married. It wasn't on their radar. They weren't aspiring to it. Eventually they

03:43went to college and they moved in with their boyfriends or they got a job and weren't dating.

03:48And I thought, gosh, this is a change and I don't like this change. I want to put something out

03:54there really practical for women that maybe are soured on marriage because their parents got a

04:00divorce and they don't want that. Maybe they don't know what marriage can look like. And I want to tell

04:05them it can be a really good thing. And I wanted to give them a behind the scenes look at

04:10what that

04:11was like. So I wanted to make myself available to answer questions or be vulnerable and share what I'd

04:16learned. Um, and so that's how I got started on Instagram, came up with an account. My kids

04:21encouraged me to do that. They said, mom, it's a great platform. Just get on there and start writing.

04:26Yeah. So that's what I did. And, um, that was six years ago. And in the meantime, I've written a

04:30book

04:31on marriage. And so that has, is really satisfying to get to put it all in one place and be

04:37able to talk

04:37to people about, um, what I learned and, you know, point them toward the book or whatever, but to have

04:42the

04:43opportunity to sit down with somebody like you and talk about it. Like this is my, this is my

04:47wheelhouse. I just love talking about it. That's awesome. No, I think it's so important too. And I

04:51agree with you growing up, you know, I've noticed we live in a culture where it seems like more people

04:55want relationships, but they don't want commitment. And so they don't want to sit down. They don't want

04:59to get married. They just want to fulfill the desires of the flesh really, and not have to deal with

05:04the hardships that come with a true commitment of marriage. And it is sad because I do believe that God

05:10has designed us, you know, for marriage, you know, not everyone, you know, Paul writes about,

05:14he wishes everyone could be single like him because then you can just focus on your ministry

05:17for the Lord. But many of us and most of us will end up in a relationship, do have the

05:21desire to get

05:22married. And again, unfortunately we just live in a world where we are seeing more and more people pull

05:27away from that. And so I think what you're doing is critically important for the day and age that we

05:32live in. And I know when I first stumbled across your account, this is kind of a funny story. I

05:34first

05:35stumbled across your account, I think it was about a year ago or so because you had a video go

05:38viral.

05:39And I do want you to actually tell that story. We can get to that in a moment, but the

05:44video go

05:44viral. And I was like, wow, this is so good. And I reacted to it as a long form video

05:48on my channel.

05:49And it went kind of even viral for me. And I was like, this is such a needed space online.

05:55Not many

05:56people are talking so specifically and like you said, practically giving real practical application

06:01to how we can walk out a marriage in a healthy and godly way. And so just wanted to say

06:06all that to

06:07say, it is so needed. And thank you for what you're doing. I did want to ask you real quick,

06:12I know you said six years ago is when you started your Instagram. How many followers are you at now

06:16on that Instagram?

06:19I believe it's 167,000.

06:21Wow. Okay. So that's really good. And that gives you just so people can see like,

06:25there's credibility here. People want to hear what you're saying. So they're going to follow your

06:29content because you're bringing value. So man, that's amazing. And that's awesome. It's cool that

06:33your kids, you know, push you into doing that. And so you took the steps and now you have a

06:38book

06:38too that I tell people, my wife is currently reading the book and she's only had good things

06:41to say. And so, man, it is so awesome to that. So let's take a step back and kind of

06:47get into

06:48your faith first and kind of how you started to pursue the Lord. And I know it sounds like you

06:52grew up in a Christian home, but like what led you to the Lord? And then ultimately, you know,

06:57how that, that implement, or you, I guess, implemented your faith in your marriage and how that

07:00impacted your marriage. Yeah. Well, I didn't grow up in a Christian home per se. We went to church,

07:07but it was not because my parents had a personal relationship with Jesus. It was because their

07:13family went to church. It was really, you know, that's what you did. I learned about Jesus, but I

07:19didn't know I could know him. And what I love about my story is it's really, really simple. But I

07:28got

07:28saved when I was eight years old because my babysitter shared her faith with me. And I just

07:33am like, Lord, how did you have such grace to bring a babysitter into my house to tell me that

07:41there was more? And she shared that I had a dirty heart. And I was like, yeah, I mean,

07:46you're eight years old and you know. And she said, but do you want to go to heaven? Do you

07:51want to see

07:52Jesus one day? And I, that was an easy question for an eight year old? Yes. Um, and she just

07:57walked

07:57me through, you know, letting, just acknowledging to the Lord, I had a dirty heart and asking him to

08:01clean that heart, asking him to turn my heart toward him and that he was my, my savior. Simple.

08:09And I prayed that prayer. Um, I went to bed that night before my parents got home. And for the

08:14first

08:15time ever, I laid there and I started crying because I was happy. Now as an eight year old,

08:21I had maybe heard grownups talk about that. And I thought it was weird, you know, but to have it

08:27happen to me, I thought something real has changed inside me. I could feel it. And the natural thing

08:33that happened after that is I just started talking to Jesus when I went to bed at night, laying on

08:38my

08:38pillow. And I would get a sense of how he was answering me. I was learning to hear this quiet

08:43voice.

08:44Um, and so over the years I developed that relationship before anyone else in my family

08:50got saved. My mom actually came to Christ when I was in junior high. Um, and then over the course

08:57of the years, I mean, my, my dad didn't come to the Lord until six months before he died. So

09:01it just

09:02was the mercy of God to do that for me and to draw me to himself. So, um, he, he

09:09just really did all the

09:10training in my heart in those quiet places. And I started reading the Bible in college.

09:15Okay. So that's when I started to really learn what the Bible had to say.

09:19Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was amazing. I love hearing when people come to the faith, it's

09:22just a young age, because it shows you that the gospel is simple enough for a child to understand.

09:26Obviously we have theologians that will dissect it to no end, but you know, a children can really

09:30grasp the understanding of what Christ did on the cross for them. And that was a genuine faith

09:34for you where you were able to grow up knowing the Lord and talking to the Lord that developed

09:38into something even more as you got older. So I love that. Now, when you get married, I guess,

09:42let's talk about your, you know, the finalized, like meeting your husband, you left off as

09:46you met him after college and kind of get into, you know, what your marriage looked like,

09:50implementing your faith and, and all of those things and the good, bad and ugly, I guess.

09:55Well, you know, we were both really strong Christians. When we met one another, we had

10:00both been praying that God would direct our path to meet our spouse so that we wouldn't

10:05have to do a lot of dating. And he did that. It was just a gift to both of us.

10:10And we both

10:10came from strong homes where our parents weren't, we're still together. So when we got married,

10:15I just thought this is going to be a piece of cake because we're so solid. We're both oldest

10:21children. So we're already responsible. We already know what it is to like do the things

10:26without complaining. So we had the privilege of starting off on a really solid foundation,

10:32but we still had the sin nature, the selfish places, you know, in us learning how to communicate

10:39and not just blurt things out. And like I said, I was pretty intense because I had read

10:45enough things and thought about it enough that if a day went by and we had a conversation that

10:50didn't go well, I wanted to talk it through before the night was out. Um, it's, it was

10:56too much. So Steve had to encourage me to take a step back and not be so intense. And then

11:03I had to learn that that didn't mean he didn't love me, you know, all those things. Um, but

11:09I think we had a really, we had a good solid beginning. Um, remarkably though, one thing that

11:16was lacking that I didn't even know, um, was real was what it means to a man to be respected

11:23and how a woman communicates to a man and especially her husband that she respects him. Um, and I heard

11:31a teaching on this. I think our oldest was probably 12 years old, right around there. And I'm listening

11:37to this and they were talking about how, when a man feels, um, disrespected, he's going to shut down

11:44and go quiet with his wife because he doesn't want to say anything disrespectful back to her.

11:51He wants to defend himself. He might feel like yelling. He might feel angry. He's shocked that a,

11:56his wife would speak to him this way because there's no man at work that would ever speak

12:01to him and challenge him the way I'm challenging him. So I heard this and I thought I was so

12:07confused.

12:07I didn't know what they were talking about, but I, I knew that Steve would shut down. I knew that

12:14he

12:14would go quiet sometime and get frustrated with me. Sometimes he would say, you know, honey, we're,

12:19we're done talking. I can't do this anymore. And I thought, well, that's because you aren't as good

12:25of a communicator as I am. Clearly I need to teach you how to communicate. Um, and that was what

12:32my working,

12:33um, what I was working from. And when I heard this teaching, it was kind of like, that's not what's

12:39going on. He is being a respectful man and showing you that he loves you by taking control of the

12:46situation and not saying something he would regret in a moment when as a wife, I'm over talking and

12:51I'm sure I've just said something disrespectful. That teaching absolutely stopped me in my tracks.

12:58And I realized that not only was I speaking disrespectfully, not meaning to at all, I didn't

13:04not appreciate him or not admire him, but I surely wasn't communicating that. And I,

13:10and what I was doing was treating him like his mother, um, which really sobered me when I heard

13:16that because as a mother, even if you have one child, you're in charge, you're telling your child

13:23all day long what to do. And when your husband gets home, you're just in mother mode. You're,

13:27it's your domain. You're running the house. You know what you want him to do. And so you speak

13:32to him like, okay, and I need you to do this. And that is just not ideal for a marriage.

13:38Um,

13:39even saying, honey, could you please do this for me? I mean, that takes it to a completely different

13:42level and treating him like a teammate and not like I'm the mom and you're going to answer to me.

13:48So that was a huge shift in our marriage. And it's one of, I have an entire chapter on that

13:52in my book.

13:53Um, and it's something I always listen for when I'm talking to young couples to see where they're

13:57at with that understanding, because I want them to understand it as soon as they can. It'll just

14:02share, it'll keep them from a lot of sad places. Yeah, definitely. It's really good.

14:08I can definitely relate, you know, obviously being married, it's like,

14:10it is easy to get into that, that place, you know, as a man of like, sometimes my wife isn't

14:14even being disrespectful, but maybe the way she said it, I'm like offended by it. And so I shut down

14:18or you have a nasty rhetoric. And so it is an understanding of like, this, this is a team we

14:23need. We ultimately have the same goal. We love each other. We want the best for each other. But

14:27how can we go about communicating and working together in a way that shows that we're on a team,

14:31as opposed to kind of being either someone's parent, like if my wife is saying something to

14:35me in a way that makes me feel like she's acting like my mother, or in a way that is

14:39just, you know,

14:40rude or offensive or because we're frustrated or fed up because we're humans, you know?

14:43Yeah. So no, I think it's really good for us to, to definitely understand that. Um,

14:50so I will say you, you've been married for almost 40 years now. What would you say is the number

14:56one

14:57thing that's kept your, your marriage strong and, uh, moving forward? Hmm. Um, I, I think it's

15:06that we believe in each other and we treat each other that way. Um, he gives me the benefit of

15:11the

15:11doubt. Like if, if I was to just be very upset or lose it, he knows that's not who I

15:17am. And so

15:18rather than accuse me of, of something that's not true, he'll, he'll go the other route and check in

15:24on me and see how I'm doing. What is that? What do you need? Do you need a break? Um,

15:30he, he believes

15:31the best about me and my intentions. He doesn't read stuff into the situation. Um, and I do the same

15:37thing for him. I'm very careful to not let my mind race with accusations that he did something on

15:45purpose, um, that there was malicious intent, but that he really is trying his best. And, um,

15:53that helped me. I mean, I've learned that over the years. I think it takes a lot of work and

15:57self-discipline to figure out what your thoughts are, to arrest them, to replace them. I mean,

16:04that to me is the hard work of marriage is handling your thought life. Um, and I think we

16:09both do a really good job of that. We both worked on it. I did not do this well when

16:15I was a newlywed.

16:16Yeah. No, I love that. The Bible actually says to take your thoughts captive and submit them to Christ.

16:21And so it's such an important practice to do in all areas of our life, but especially in marriage,

16:25because it is easy, especially if we've been hurt in the past, even by someone else

16:28to assume the worst intentions of our partner when they do whatever, you know,

16:33trait that is that might trigger those kinds of thoughts. And so it is hard. It is, it is important.

16:38I can, you know, think to my own marriage where there's times where it's like, we have assumed

16:41the worst and that has only created more problems. Now the other person is more defensive or whatever

16:46it is. Right. Instead of, you know, saying, okay, this, what they did might've been wrong, but you

16:51know, the intention wasn't bad. We still have to fix what was wrong, but we, we don't have to make

16:55it

16:55into a bigger problem that isn't actually there. Um, but I, I'll ask you this in, you know,

17:00has there ever been a time where maybe trust was broken in any capacity or where you've had to

17:05figure out, you know, this is an area that I'm really struggling to trust, but I still want to

17:09believe the best and give the benefit of the doubt to my spouse. Hmm. Um,

17:17I wouldn't say it was trust was broken, but, um, we went through a season that was extremely

17:23challenging financially. And my husband worked, uh, I mean, I don't know, 12, 14 hours. He was gone

17:31all the time. Um, he owned his own business and when he was finally home,

17:38I wanted a piece of him. I just missed him. He's my guy, you know, he's my friend.

17:42And throughout the growing of the business, when he was working less and then working more,

17:48I felt like he was selfish when he was at home and I wanted his time. So if he stayed

17:56up after

17:56we all went to sleep just to have quiet time, that was fine. The problem was that meant he slept

18:02in

18:02in the morning and then I was on my own again for the three hours that he was sleeping. And

18:08I translated

18:09that as a really selfish move on his heart. Um, looking back on it, I think I was too hard

18:17on him

18:18for that, but it was just, like I said, it's how I translated it. And I felt like he wasn't

18:24holding

18:24up his end of the bargain, which right now breaks my heart because if you can, I think of him

18:30working

18:30that hard to provide for us and me thinking he's being selfish, it's just like, it's ridiculous.

18:37Yeah. Um, but you know what, when that's your perspective and that's your reality, it's really

18:42real. Um, and that's part of the reason I speak up and talk about stuff like this, because I want

18:49other women to recognize themselves in that. I want them to know, Hey, you, your perspective might be

18:56off. It feels really, really right to you because of the emotions involved. And because you can point

19:01to him laying on the couch or sleeping in bed and say, see, I'm right. Um, but I think the

19:05older women,

19:06we've got to be more vulnerable with things like this, what we've experienced, uh, where we failed,

19:12you know, I mean, I've asked my husband throughout for my book, what I've shared, I've asked for his

19:18permission to share it. Um, and when I write on Instagram, if I have any question, I'll have him read

19:22it

19:22first because the last thing I want to do is to dishonor him. Um, and I really try to throw

19:28myself

19:28under the bus. Like, I mean, in that example, I'm the one who had the failed perspective. Right. Um,

19:36and, and looking back, I, I really, I'm so humbled by what he was doing for me, but truth be

19:42told,

19:42I, I had a bad attitude about it. Yeah, no, I think that's a really good example. I can only

19:47imagine

19:47how many people can relate to exactly that where husbands, you know, are working hard,

19:53they're doing a lot, but then when they take those moments to their, to themselves,

19:57the wives feel like, oh, they're being selfish. They're being lazy there, you know, whatever you

20:00want to call it. Um, and sometimes there's truth in that, right? Sometimes husbands can, I can say,

20:05like, there have been seasons where I've been lazy and I haven't shown up and done my part.

20:08There've also been seasons where I've worked extremely hard. And then when it comes to a moment of

20:13peace or rest, it's like, oh, I just need a break. And I can see how that impacts my wife

20:17in both of those seasons. Um, and so I, I think that is a very practical and real problem that,

20:23you know, people have to navigate and not necessarily even a problem, but just a situation

20:26that people have to navigate. Um, one, one thing, as I kind of mentioned there alluded to earlier,

20:30is there's a story I want you to tell. And I don't know if you remember the story specifically, but,

20:34um,

20:35about the doctor's office and it was, uh, within, you know, you know, stumbling across someone else

20:41that you find attractive, even though you're already married. Cause I, I think a lot of people think

20:45that attraction just disappears after you get married. It's like, I'll only ever have eyes

20:49for you. And it's, it's a choice that we have to make as opposed to, you know,

20:53attraction just disappearing. So you have a great story around how you handled that experiencing

20:57that. Um, so I would love if you could just share that. Yeah, of course. Um, it actually happened

21:03right in the season. I was referring to when Steve was working a lot, we had, um, we had four

21:10children

21:10at the time I was pregnant with our fifth and I needed to find a new pediatrician. And the thing

21:16about back then, uh, there was no internet and to find the pediatrician that was in your network meant

21:22that you had to get on the phone with your insurance company. You had to write down, you know, eight

21:27options, the address, the phone number, you had to call them and find out if they were taking new patients.

21:32Um, it was a lot of work and I had to do this and I found a new office and

21:38I went to this office,

21:39you know, put all four kids in the car, took them in my youngest. He was ready for, um, his

21:45annual

21:45physical. So I was there waiting in the doctors in the room, the small little room with four children,

21:51entertaining them. And the pediatrician walked in. I didn't know who this guy was. I just knew his name

21:56on paper and I watched him walk in and he was a really handsome guy. He was about my age,

22:02maybe

22:02five years older. I don't know. But I hadn't been in a room with another attractive man besides my

22:09husband for, I don't know, a really long time. And what happened? Well, I mean, fine. He's an

22:15attractive man. No big deal. But he looked at me and he said, Oh, you have a large family. I

22:21love this.

22:22And in that comment, he affirmed my decision to have a large family and Steve's, but I was living

22:31in Los Angeles too. Not only was I alone ish raising my children, but no one had more than

22:38two children. And so on a regular basis, I was hearing from other people who felt the freedom

22:44to walk up to me at the grocery store and say, I can't believe you have three children and you're

22:49pregnant. That's so selfish. I mean, I was stunned by the grief I was getting for choosing to have

22:57more than two children, especially because my oldest was a boy and my second was a girl. That

23:01was even more awful that I was having, you know, I had already had my girl and boy, I shouldn't

23:05have

23:06more. So that's where I was coming from. And to have a man affirm that I had that, wow, you're

23:14doing

23:14something great. I hadn't heard that. I mean, I had not heard that in Los Angeles. Um, and then

23:21he went on to say, I wish my wife wanted more. We have two children and she's done. And it

23:28was such

23:28a vulnerable moment on something that was so important to me that my heart just turned toward

23:33him. Like it would turn toward anyone because I, I care about people, right? It had nothing. It was not

23:39a sexual feeling. It was just a gosh, as a friend, I wish that too. But those were three things

23:45that

23:46came together. That was just kind of a, wow, we, we have sort of a connection here. Um, and we

23:52could

23:52keep talking about this. He seemed very open to keep talking. And I thought we need to, we need to

23:59switch the topic because this isn't appropriate. And so I just said, well, Patrick's turning one,

24:05you know, and turn the comment there. And then we, that was it. I was done. And that, but on

24:10the way

24:10home from that appointment, I felt affirmed. I felt good. I felt like, see, I felt seen. And I was

24:18replaying that in my mind, like, huh, I, I was attracted to this guy. He hit all the buttons of

24:25affirming me. And then I thought, okay, well, moving on. I mean, I'm going back home. I just noted it

24:31like three days later. I thought about it again as just so warm and fuzzy kind of thought. Um,

24:39and I shoved it away, like, okay, stop. And then a few days after that, I thought about it again.

24:45And

24:45I, and I really thought to myself, wow, I wonder if this is how affairs start. You get someone in

24:51your

24:52head. They made you feel good and you want a little bit more and you just play with fire. You

24:58might put

24:58yourself in that situation to walk by their desk or you see them outside taking out the trash. So

25:03you go outside to get the mail. And I was very sobered by that thought. And I thought to myself,

25:09well, I'm feeling something and I don't want to play with fire. And the Bible says flee from lust was

25:17not in the lust category, but flee from temptation. And so I thought about it and I thought, you know

25:27want to go there is really nice guy has nothing to do with him. He probably didn't give it a

25:33second

25:33thought. And I doubt, I seriously doubt he would be interested in a pregnant woman with four children.

25:39It wasn't that it wasn't that I thought I was all that. Um, I just wanted to be responsible with

25:44what happened. So that's what I did. I picked a new pediatrician. It was a pain, but we went on

25:50and

25:51moved with that. And, um, it just was a, a sober place for me to realize that this probably is

25:57how

25:58affairs happen. And in order to protect our marriages, we've got to be on the alert and

26:04be proactive about how we handle innocent conversations. I had something happen years

26:11later. There was a man at church who came up to talk to me and he put his hand on

26:14my shoulder,

26:14very gently on my arm real softly. That felt good. I was like, you shouldn't have touched me like

26:22that. And I, again, I clocked it and thought, I know I need to be very careful around him. Again,

26:31I don't think he did it on purpose, but I really am deliberate about protecting my marriage.

26:38One, because I love Steve and value him too, because I fear the Lord. He, I am responsible

26:45for being faithful to my husband. Um, and three, it would be the worst possible thing for my children.

26:51Um, so I have a real sobriety about divorce and protecting my marriage, but I share that story.

26:57It went viral because people misunderstood it. Um, they listened to like the first, I don't even know

27:03how far into it they got. Um, but they, when I said you really can be attracted to another man

27:09when you're married, um, I got called the worst of names. Um, they said my husband, they felt sorry

27:16for my husband that he was married. And I'm thinking, did you not listen to the whole story?

27:20Like I really honored him. Anyway, that's the story. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing it. I think,

27:26uh, sorry, I didn't realize that you had such a negative, uh, feedback on it. Um, yeah, I think it's,

27:31it is quite a delusion to think that you will never see another attractive person or even have

27:36a close connection with someone else after you get married. Um, there's a lot of people on this

27:41earth and there's a lot of attractive people and there's a lot of very kind, friendly people

27:44and the enemy will, will send a moments of temptation, especially in places of vulnerability.

27:49You had already shared that the season you were in, you weren't seeing your husband as much.

27:53And so there was this vulnerable aspect of, well, if we can put another man in front of you,

27:58uh, that could be a place of temptation for you, but you obviously you knew like, this is very

28:04important and you're going to have boundaries in place. You're going to do what you need to do

28:07to make sure that you handle this and that it doesn't turn into something worse than,

28:11than what it could be. Cause I think you're absolutely right. I think that that is one of

28:13the key ways that affairs start is it starts with just something small and then you give into it.

28:18I think that's with a lot of sin. It's just, you give into it. And then slowly over time,

28:21it builds into something bigger and bigger until now you're in a mess that you can't really get out of.

28:25And, uh, one thing that I know you, you initially shared with the story is that you didn't tell your

28:30husband about it. And I knew that this would be a place. And even when I reacted to a place

28:34of,

28:34you know, division and controversy, and that's, that's exactly what it was. The people in the

28:38comments were like, no, she should have told other people like, no, it's fine that she didn't tell.

28:41And initially my response was like, she should have told, but I actually talked to my wife about it

28:44before I made the video. And my wife's like, no, I don't think she needed to tell. And after we

28:49talked about it, I was like, yeah, I can see why not. So I just wanted you to talk about

28:52that piece

28:53specifically, uh, why you chose not to tell your husband about it and why you think it was okay

28:57that you didn't. And then, you know, people can take what they will from that about they ever find

29:01themselves in these situations if they should or shouldn't. Yeah. I did think about whether or not

29:05I needed to, um, tell him, but in that season, I was very aware of the responsibility on his shoulders.

29:14Um, he was working hard because of the stress we were under and it was beyond stress. I mean,

29:19we had creditors, we had debt that we couldn't pay. Um, and sometimes we could barely buy groceries.

29:26So I knew we were both very, very stressed. And I thought, how, how's this going to come across? If

29:32I

29:32say, you know, I just wanted to tell you, I took the kids to the pediatrician's office and he was

29:36so attractive that I decided I, I, I, I was vulnerable to that temptation. So I'm going to

29:43go somewhere else. I thought he does not need to hear that. Um, the Bible says, if you, if you've

29:49sinned against another person, go to that person and confess it. I had not sinned against him.

29:54Yeah. Um, I felt it would become more of a burden than now, if it had gotten out of control,

30:01if I couldn't get out of my mind, if it went further than it went, if I really, if I

30:06had

30:06done anything with this man, if I had kissed him, then yes, I think my husband would deserve

30:11to know that. Um, and I will say years, like what I became sensitive to also was,

30:17you know, we can be attractive to someone, not just because they look good, but because of the

30:22way they treat us. Yeah. If you get a compliment, like in that season, if another man had said,

30:27Michelle, I just see what you're doing for wife for Steve, you're really amazing the way that you

30:33are so cheerful and, and keeping your family fed. When I know, of course, no one knew we didn't have

30:38if I got that compliment, that would have really, I needed that. Yeah. There've been seasons where

30:44I've received a compliment and I have taken it to Steve and said, you know what? So-and-so said

30:48this

30:49to me. And it really landed in a place where I realized I need to hear this from you. Can

30:54you

30:54think of three things that you think I'm doing really, really well? Because I didn't know how

30:59much I need to hear that. Yeah. That has been, I've continued to do things like that. I'm addressing

31:05a vulnerability and then going to him and saying, I need help. I need you to fill in here. Um,

31:10so

31:10sometimes, and there have been times where I have gone to him to share things that I've

31:14recognized was a weakness. Yeah. No, I think that's really important. I think a lot of it comes down to

31:20the season in place where your marriage is what's going on. You know, I think if there was infidelity

31:25in the marriage previously and something like this happens, like maybe we need to communicate

31:28these things to just be completely open and honest about everything. Like you have to be

31:32overly honest to make sure you guys are moving in the right direction. But if a marriage is already

31:36healthy, like you said, your, your husband had a lot of weight on his shoulders already,

31:38there wasn't sin that was committed. It's like, we don't need to add any extra weight, any doubts in

31:44his head, like cause any, any further problems. And I think that was a lot of what my wife was

31:47saying too.

31:48It's like, not everything deserves to be communicated because that can cause more problems

31:52than, than not. And we can start to think the worst about things kind of like what we were

31:56talking about earlier. All of a sudden the intentions were thinking, okay, well, what's

31:58really happening? Why'd they do this? And so, um, you know, some things need to be communicated.

32:02Other things don't. It requires wisdom, discernment and understanding of where you're at

32:05to make those decisions. And it sounds like you made the right decision and it sounds like you've

32:09continued to use that wisdom on when you should and shouldn't communicate things. And that's something

32:13that as you're talking, I'm thinking like, man, what there's times I'm definitely an overshare.

32:17So my wife has been like, I don't need to know that. Uh, that's, you can just keep that to

32:21yourself.

32:21And you know, like, it's just, it's, it's all, I'm already overwhelmed because the kids and now

32:25you're telling me that. Right. So like, I've had to learn wisdom and like, sometimes it's best to

32:28just keep my mouth shut and, you know, use better wisdom on that. Um, so as you're sharing, I'm just

32:34thinking about that practically for myself is like, okay, making sure that I'm communicating in a mature

32:39way to my wife where it's like, she really needs to know this and it's important, or, you know,

32:43this is not going to be good. Like it's, it's no point in telling her this and she's just going

32:48to be bothered and upset, or it's going to cause her mind to spiral into something. So

32:52yeah, I love that. Uh, I love that you shared that. Thank you so much. Um, one thing I wanted

32:57to ask you is kind of about like, if there's anything in the current marriage advice world

33:03that you're seeing modern day that you either, I would say you agree with maybe, but even that you

33:09disagree with that you're saying this is a dangerous teaching that, that they're, they're

33:12putting out there. Well, I think the underlying thing that I hear is that women need to fend for

33:22themselves to make sure that they are taken care of, to make sure that they're not being taken

33:27advantage of, um, that they're number one, that that is the primary baseline in everything that's

33:34going on, that everything has to be equitable. That if, um, their husband is not doing 50 50 with

33:40the chores, then they need to get in there and make sure that it's 50 50. Um, I think that

33:46is

33:47really dangerous because well, number one, it's not the love that Jesus gave us to, um, as our model,

33:56he laid down his life for us. He asks us to lay down our lives for those that we love,

34:01including our husband. Um, and so I think the danger is, and that even in the Christian world

34:07is that we don't come from an attitude of how can I lay down my life for you? It's our,

34:12my needs being met. And am I sad because you aren't meeting my needs? Um, because you're selfish,

34:18you know, being more concerned with your husband's selfishness, then what am I doing? Um, and of course,

34:24in a teaching, you're not necessarily going to hear the idea that we are, I love the idea of that

34:30we're performing for an audience of one that my actions are really for Jesus to see. And he's my

34:36judge. Um, and so if, if my husband doesn't deserve my cheerfulness, if he doesn't deserve me saying,

34:43you know what, I'll do it. I'll, I'll, I'll go ahead and do this for you. Um, I'm doing that

34:49because I love Jesus and he asked me to love his son, Steve. Um, that is a really healthy place

34:55to

34:55be in. It's not necessarily easy. I don't always blame my life. Well, I'm really selfish. I mean,

35:01sometimes I'm just like, honey, I just can't, I'm, I need to go to bed. Yeah. I go to bed.

35:05I mean,

35:06it's not like I sit there and talk about, do you really need this done tonight? I mean, it's just,

35:10it's real life. Yeah. But I hear that underlying message of it's important that you take care of

35:15yourself. And I understand if there's domestic abuse, it's absolutely important that a woman is

35:22safe, but I'm talking about the foundation of a teaching that pits a man against a woman all

35:28in the name of, is it fair? Um, and, and I think that's going to destroy a marriage because marriage

35:34is not about being fair and it's not about 50 50. Yeah, no, that's so good. It's, um, it's very

35:41easy

35:41to want to fulfill our own desire. I mean, naturally you said you're a selfish person. Naturally,

35:45we're all selfish, right? I believe that's where all sin is birthed from. And what's funny too,

35:49is you shared initially when you came into marriage, you thought, man, like, this is going

35:52to be great. I've got it all figured out. Like, you know, I already know what I'm doing. I felt

35:55the

35:56same way. You know, I grew, I grew up in church and I'd heard about, you know, marriage is a

35:59difficult

35:59thing. And so I, I heard a lot of people don't ever hear that. They don't ever hear that marriage

36:04is

36:04actually something that's difficult. So they get into marriage thinking it's all bliss, but I knew that

36:08marriage would be difficult. So that instilled more kind of pride in me of like, oh, I already know it's

36:12going to be hard. I'll be able to handle it. And, you know, we did premarital counseling and I had

36:16sat through teachings and, and, uh, different things about marriage, you know, older couples

36:21instilling wisdom as I was, you know, a young adult and youth group. And so it's like, man,

36:25I was, I was ready. And it was the biggest slap in the face that I think I've ever experienced

36:29in my

36:30life. And I was like, man, I was nowhere near ready. And then having all this pride that I was

36:34ready,

36:34just made it that much worse. And marriage exposes things in you that you didn't know existed

36:40because it's the most, it's one of the most vulnerable relationships, uh, probably the most

36:43vulnerable human relationship you'll ever have. And so it is all that just to say, it's, it's very

36:49important to go in understanding that we are here to serve the other person. We're not here to just

36:54me, me, me. And now you will have desires met. There will be amazing moments. It will be bliss.

37:00There will be happiness, but there is a lot of work and it is constant work. And, you know, I

37:04heard

37:04someone say once that how you love your wife is a reflection of how you love Jesus. And that is

37:09one

37:09of the most convicting things I think I've ever heard because it's like, I don't wake up every

37:13day loving my wife the best. You know, some days are great. Other days I fail miserably. And so it's

37:19just a constant reminder. So when you were saying that, that's all I could think about is like, you

37:22know, that's, that's the Lord's daughter that I have to love. You know, I'm, I'm the Lord's son,

37:26you know, from her perspective that she has to love. And, uh, yeah, we really, it really just changes

37:31how you want to approach your marriage. And I think since you're talking, I'm just being honest

37:36here is I'm going to actually write something down physically so that I see that every morning

37:40and it'll help me to stay in that, that mindset of like, I'm loving her, not because of what she

37:45can do for me, but because, you know, we love because God first loved us. That is, you know,

37:49the Lord's daughter and how I love her is a reflection of how I love him. And so I'm going

37:53to

37:53try to show up every day committed to that. So I'm just saying here publicly that I'm going to make

37:57that commitment because I need that. I do, you know, my marriage isn't perfect and, uh,

38:01we need to make sure that, you know, whatever we can do. So with all that said, I want to

38:05get into

38:06the book a little bit. I know you have, you had a successful Instagram, you know, you're,

38:09you're bringing practical, good advice. So what led you to decide to move into writing a book?

38:15Um, well, I have always wanted to write a book because I enjoy writing. Um, I majored in that in

38:22college. It's just something I've always enjoyed doing. Just didn't know what to write on. And, um,

38:27in, in my Instagram, I had quite a few followers who would say,

38:31are you ever going to write a book? And I thought, Oh, well maybe this is the book that

38:35I can write. You know, what advice? And then I just thought, gosh, which way do you go? I mean,

38:40this is this big, big topic. And I was praying about it. And the Lord just was like, why don't

38:45you write a book that you wish your daughters and your daughter-in-laws would read to help them

38:50have a happy marriage? I thought, Oh, okay, that's a really good idea. What things have I found to be

38:56important qualities and characteristics as a wife and how I show up in my marriage,

39:01um, that I wish for them. And so I wrote all those out. And those are the chapters of my

39:06book

39:06of, of the different characteristics that I have found to be vital to a happy marriage. Um,

39:12and then I just started writing and that took about a year. And then in the process of it, I,

39:18the Lord just said, now write the companion book, which is a workbook that goes with it. That really

39:22is kind of like a Bible study. So the book itself is those chapters and the teaching on

39:26what, what qualities are important with mixed with different stories of mine. And then the

39:31companion guide is, it just dovetails. You read chapter one in the book and then you do chapter

39:35one in the workbook. Um, the workbook has more of the Bible references and the Bible, the teaching

39:41that you would want, or that you could bring to a small group and, and do a book club with

39:46some

39:46friends. Yeah. So, wow, that's really good. I didn't know there was a workbook so that I love that

39:51because it, it, it makes it even more practical. It makes it where people really dive in. And like

39:54you said, you know, other, you know, women can come together and figure out like this,

39:57these are the things we need to be working on and improving upon. Um, with your book,

40:00what would you say is your, your favorite chapter in it? Um, my chapter called honor your husband.

40:06That's the one about respect. I spent the most time writing that because like I said, I was,

40:13it was very hard for me to grasp that respect was this thing I wasn't doing. I thought I was,

40:20um, and so when I wrote it, I was reading it as if I was newlywed me and wondering if

40:26I would

40:27understand what I was saying. And I just had to rewrite it multiple times. Um, it's my favorite

40:32because I think it's the most transformative for a marriage. Yeah. I love that. I mean,

40:38obviously as a man, it's like, yes, respect your husband. I can root, I can get behind that and

40:42root for that all day. Um, I know the book and I, and I have a copy here showing, and

40:47I know it's

40:47behind you too. Hey, beginner wife. Um, do you reckon, I know it's targeted for women. Do you

40:52recommend that men read it too? Do you think there's some practical things that men can,

40:55can pull from it? I think men can glean from it. Um, I've had a few men read it who

41:02said that it was

41:03insightful for sure. Um, it, you know, it kind of exposed, it'll show them what it's like to be in

41:10a woman's head, the things that, that we wrestle with the things that we think. Um, it's, it's

41:15certainly not written for men, but just like my Instagram, I have men that follow my Instagram

41:21that will comment and say, you know, I just take what you say and I switch it. So it applies

41:26to me.

41:27Yeah. You know, if I tell you, believe the best about your husband, why of course,

41:31believe the best about your wife. So my voice is speaking to the women, but, uh, it's very affirming

41:36to have the men come back and say, I am so glad, like I wasn't doing that either. Um, so

41:42yes,

41:42they certainly could. Yeah, no, absolutely. Uh, cause I, I do want to get into it as I heard

41:46some of the good things that my wife has said about it and some of the stories that she shared

41:50from it. I'm like, well, this would probably be interesting for me to read. I'm in the middle

41:52of a different book right now, but I was like, I might check this one out when I'm, when I'm

41:56done

41:56with that one. So, um, and then I did want to ask you to, have you heard any stories since,

42:00you know,

42:01people have read the book where they've come back and just been like, wow, this thing you said

42:04really helped our marriage or changed the way we're doing things or anything like that.

42:08I, I have, I've received a lot of, of, uh, direct messages. You know, people can reach me that way.

42:15Um, I've had women say that they really thought they needed marriage counseling and they read the

42:20book and realized they just needed a different perspective that they too were being too hard

42:25on their husband. So for them, it was very life giving. Um, I've heard women really be encouraged to

42:32know that marriage can be a friendship. I mean, one of the things I say in the chapter about friends

42:38is, you know, you may not have a great example of what it's like, what a marriage looks like,

42:44but I bet you have experienced a really good friendship. So what if you approached your marriage

42:50as a really good friendship and fostered it that way and let it become a thriving marriage? I've heard

42:57several women say that that's been really, really helpful. Um, and I've heard women that are

43:02encouraged. Uh, my first chapter is, um, I think it's called, you can do hard things. I, I, I'm

43:09questioning myself because my three-year-old granddaughter walks around saying that all the

43:13time. We can do hard things. You can do hard things. Yes. I know that's the concept. Um, but just

43:22that for people to know that, that for other people, marriage has been a challenge. It isn't a

43:29honeymoon that just lasts for a couple of years. And I talk about what we went through and they

43:35are encouraged to know, wow, okay, this is life. Like no one talks about that. It can be hard behind

43:41closed doors and then get better. You know, that you're growing together, that whole idea. Um, so yeah,

43:48those different things have come back to me for sure. It's a very encouraging to have women come

43:52back and say, this really meant a lot to me. You have no idea now that I think of these

43:57things when

43:58I'm trying to, you know, when I'm irritated with my husband, your words pop into my head.

44:03So yeah, very, the practical aspect of it has been well received.

44:07Yeah. No, it's always amazing when what you actually set out to do to help other people,

44:12you see that it actually is helping. And so it's more than just a book. It's more than an Instagram

44:17with posts you're impacting real lives. And so I would say, I would encourage you, you know,

44:21keep, keep going, keep doing it because you are making a difference. I mean, even in our lives,

44:25we can already say like, we've seen your content. My wife has been reading the book and it's already

44:29been impactful. And so obviously you're getting testimonies too. And it is, it's just so good.

44:34One of the things that my wife is so big on is just continuing to learn. And you know, I'm,

44:38I'm a guy and I'm one of those people where it's like, I learn it and it's like, Oh, I

44:41got to

44:41figure it out. I know it, you know? And so I don't need to keep learning, but I've learned that

44:45that that's immature. You know, I have to always continue no matter what it is, continue to learn

44:49in whatever I'm doing. So my faith, that's why we read the Bible every day. You know,

44:52I've read the whole Bible, but you don't stop there. You keep reading it. There's so much to

44:55continue to learn. And so when it comes to marriage, we have to keep learning, keep getting more

44:59resources. And I think that, you know, your book and, you know, I'm standing by it obviously here

45:04where I'd say like, this is a great resource where people can really continue to learn and grow

45:08in their marriage and in the most important human relationship you will have. We have to keep

45:13learning and getting better. And I love that it is truly practical tips, right? It is how you can

45:18live it out every day and real, real struggles, real relationships, real, real, I don't know,

45:24situations. So it's all good. Before we, we close out, is there any final things you want to say,

45:30whether it's about the book or marriage or anything? Wow. You know, I just want to encourage

45:36both men and women that marriage is a good thing. Amen. You know, yes, we talk about it's challenging

45:41and you might feel challenged right now, but God gave it to us to refine us, to make us more

45:47like him.

45:48Um, you know, I've been married for years. It feels really easy now. It's the best thing in

45:54my life. I can't wait to get home and hang out with my husband. And after 40 years, he's the

45:59one

45:59I want to talk to. Um, you go through life and you become soulmates. I think that's something that

46:08people who aren't married yet or people that are and might be disappointed think, Oh, I want my soul

46:13mate. Um, I never really thought that what I've experienced is that he, he's become my soulmate.

46:20And part of it was through doing tough things together. Like he's the one who hung in through

46:25the tough times with me, hanging on through the tough times. We figured out how to work together,

46:30how to encourage one another. Um, and we are each other's biggest and best cheerleader. I,

46:37and I think that is many stories for people that have stayed together, just encouraged one another,

46:45not looked and thought, well, why aren't you like him or her? Um, it's just doing the day to day

46:51work and letting it happen. So I would encourage you. Don't, don't get strung out thinking you have

46:56to find your soulmate, find a really good guy or a really good gal that you admire and appreciate,

47:04um, and enjoy being with. And if you guys share the same faith and the same worldview, then

47:09get married. Yeah, no, absolutely. It's so good. Uh, what you're saying and, and I love it. I think,

47:17you know, there's, I don't know, there's just a lot, there's so much to learn about marriage

47:20is ever going. And I think when you're saying that you are, your marriage is easy now, it seems easy

47:24now at this time, it's because you, you laid a good foundation and you built off of it. And I

47:29think

47:29when you find that people are struggling in their marriages later down the road, it's because they

47:34didn't do the hard work early on. And I don't think anything is irredeemable, especially with

47:38the Lord Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy spirit. I think we, anything could be redeemed,

47:41any marriage. Um, but it obviously there's a real true pattern of you do the work now,

47:47you're going to reap those benefits later. You reap what you sow, you know, it's, it's a biblical

47:51principle. So thank you, Michelle, for, for sharing everything you've had to share. This has been

47:56fruitful for me. I know that it'll be fruitful for other people. Um, if you're watching,

47:59make sure you get Hey, Beginner Wife. It is definitely an amazing book. I can, like I said,

48:04I haven't read it yet, but my wife has read it and she has only had good things to say.

48:07And I trust my wife. You should trust her too. So it's, it is definitely a great resource. And

48:12man, I just pray that this blesses somebody. And, uh, wow. Thank you again.

48:16Of course. Thanks for having me, Cliff. It was really fun.

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