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Isabel Segovia Ospina, exsecretaria de Educación de Bogotá, hace un llamado al gobierno nacional para que responda ante las evidencias de las pruebas PISA y pide reformas urgentes frente a la Inteligencia Artificial y la carrera docente a fin de mejorar la enseñanza para jóvenes y niños.
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00:11Welcome to El Espectador Interviews. My guest today is Isabel Segovia Ospina.
00:15historian and expert in international relations at the University of Pennsylvania,
00:19She holds a master's degree in Latin American Studies from Vanderbilt University. She was a consultant.
00:24from the World Bank, professor at Externado University, Vice Minister of Education of the Government
00:28by Álvaro Uribe, vice-presidential candidate running with Enrique Peñalosa, columnist
00:35del Espectador, and until the beginning of this year was the Secretary of Education of Bogotá.
00:40I want to talk to her because the results of the
00:44PISA tests, which are the program for international student assessment conducted by the Organization
00:50for Economic Cooperation and Development, OECD. That test measures the learning of the
00:5615-year-olds and I think it's a topic that requires in-depth analysis.
01:02Welcome, Isabel.
01:03Thank you so much, Nestor. We enjoy being with you here.
01:06After 25 years of experience in the education sector, what is your opinion of the outcome of the
01:12Evidence? Because it shows one of the lowest levels of academic performance in Latin America
01:17of those that are known.
01:19Yes, the news is even more serious because it is the lowest of all the countries in the
01:24OECD. This includes Europe and Asia, which have also participated in the PISA test for some time.
01:29Many years, since 2000, let's say. There are some countries with a track record of almost 20 years of
01:34I tested it and it turns out that the results, it turns out that the results, precisely, have been the worst.
01:42since around 2006 for the entire cohort of countries, except for a very few that are releasing
01:50The face like China, like Singapore, Great Britain, which made a very big effort, but not only
01:58Latin America is the whole world. Now, that doesn't mean it's any consolation to
02:02This is a global alarm, and I believe we need to pay attention to it.
02:08But what happened? Is that still a post-pandemic effect or what?
02:12Well, there aren't any concrete explanations yet. I obviously have several theories.
02:19which I'm going to share with you. The truth is that the results, particularly regarding the language, were
02:27They were already falling before the pandemic. They were falling, but not as precipitously as
02:32They fell at this moment, but they had been falling. The pandemic, without a doubt, exacerbates the
02:38the problem of the results. And it's exacerbated not only by the confinement they experience.
02:44not just because of the children, but because we do several things. We lock them up, we encourage them to use technology
02:49to learn. So, there we have another sin. When the pandemic is over, after the lockdown,
02:55Very few countries acknowledged the fact that learning losses actually occurred.
03:01So, there are a few countries, for example, Costa Rica, Great Britain, that made programs
03:07Specifics for improvement and recovery from what happened. The rest of us just went on as if nothing had happened.
03:12The pandemic would never have affected the children. The 2025 result is a result that measures the
03:18Children who experienced the pandemic when they were nine and ten years old. That is the key moment for
03:25the whole topic of training in basic mathematical skills and literacy.
03:29So, it doesn't surprise me to find these results, even on a global scale.
03:35Because this wasn't just a problem for Colombia or Latin America. Although in Colombia
03:38We did the same thing, we acted as if nothing had happened. Then, and that ties into a discussion
03:44A very big issue we have today that has to do with the use of technology. Me too.
03:51I am a firm believer that literacy skills, in particular, are being
03:57strongly affected by the fact that children live in front of a screen, they see much more
04:02They watch videos and read short pieces. The test has some very interesting things that people don't know.
04:07which increased the percentage of young people who answer quickly but make mistakes. So,
04:14That shows, it worsened, it shows that the struggle of technology worsened the comprehension of texts.
04:21complex and long. That's what caught my attention about Colombia. Bad in reading comprehension, bad in
04:27Mathematics. The reading comprehension issue is normal to occur during the transition of all these...
04:34Traumas and what to do about them. Of course, I think clearly the confinement, not having learned
04:39in person at a specific time the literacy skills that were
04:43Absolutely necessary. The failure to conduct a proper recovery of what happened during the
04:49pandemic. Having led children and young people to use technology as a means of
04:55learning, in addition to the constant struggle that all parents have with the use
05:00recreational. And all of that is having an immediate impact on skills
05:06of literacy. That's very serious because if you don't know how to read and write, you can't
05:10I just want to learn. People don't believe that, but I can't learn math if I don't know
05:14I can't read and write. I can't learn science, I can't learn anything about social sciences.
05:17Nor if I can't read and write. And so, this is a very critical call to action that we have
05:24We need to react as a country and as a world to begin to address these teaching problems.
05:33from the learning we are having with children and young people, so that they can
05:36to recover their literacy skills.
05:39Of course. You worked for a long time at the Ministry of Education, and you just left the Secretariat of Education.
05:44From Bogotá. What should be done? In other words, these results shouldn't just be news stories.
05:49Last week and that's it. What can be done in the education system to react in the best way?
05:56I believe that in Colombia, the education sector has been going through a complex crisis. I don't
06:02I want to get very involved in politics, but the truth is that in the last 15 years the Ministry
06:06The Education Ministry has not been managed by people who know the sector. They usually have agendas.
06:12Very specific policies that have nothing to do with learning processes. The Secretariat
06:18from Education, and speaking of the specific experience I just had and that I know is
06:21Given that Bogotá is currently in that situation, they do some important work when they get involved in it.
06:27learning process. The Ministry of Education is now doing something that I believe
06:33It should be a model for the rest of the country, which is going back to my elementary school, as I call it. Let's go back
06:39at
06:39basic skills. Let's provide specific reinforcement so that primary school children effectively
06:45Learn to read, write, and learn math when appropriate. But we also have to do
06:51Two additional things, which is a big effort that Bogotá has also been making in recent years
06:55two years, which is to compensate, to remedy for these kids who are in first grade, what we call
07:02first and third year of high school, so that the generation understands, we are between
07:07Ninth, between eighth and ninth, and tenth specifically. We need to look for remediation and leveling measures.
07:15These are children who are still coming and young people who are still coming, drawn by the impact of the
07:19The pandemic and the work done in recent years, which is a really remedial measure. One cannot
07:25To tell a young person, you've been here before, haven't you? 15 years in school, 11 years in school and
07:30that
07:30That's a shame, but she didn't learn to read and write, so she'll have to see what she does. So, but it's time
07:35We need to place a strong emphasis on the fundamental areas. We need to return to the topic of these areas.
07:40Fundamentally, we have to relearn how to read and write, literally. I teach at the
07:45Master's degree in creative writing from the National University, let me tell you what we've done. We have
07:51rewritten by hand, in the workshops one writes by hand during the class, in the workshops one reads
07:57The documents that have been read are discussed aloud in the workshops. That contributes to the process, and that's what should happen.
08:07Maintaining performance at all levels. That contributes significantly and is very important.
08:10It's important that you tell me, Nelson, right now what you're doing in your master's program, but that's
08:14One thing that all schools should be doing. There are countries in the world, Sweden,
08:20Uruguay, there are countries in the world that have decided to eliminate the technology from the
08:24classrooms and that they go back to writing by hand. And they also learn the reading and writing process.
08:30By hand. The cognitive process involved in my creating a graphic.
08:35Specifically, identifying from my head what I am trying to say is a process
08:39basic and fundamental literacy skills. Being able to type immediately on a computer.
08:44On a phone, it breaks with a competition that is absolutely necessary for capability.
08:50to be able to interpret texts. So, let's say, what I'm saying again, first my primary education,
08:56Let's get back to the fundamentals, let's get back to basics, but this will require a great effort.
09:00Hopefully led from the central sector of the country, that is, from the national level, which will help the
09:05Entities and territories can effectively implement improvement programs. Bogotá can do it.
09:11because Bogotá is an entity with resources that has placed great emphasis on education,
09:16The authorities have always provided resources and usually quite competent people.
09:21to manage the sector, but Bogotá isn't the whole country. And even so, I want to clarify that Bogotá
09:28It also had very poor results, I mean, it also fell like the OECD, the thing is that Bogotá in Pisa
09:32It is still far superior to the rest of the country, it just has the same trend as everyone else.
09:37other countries. Yes, but I checked the AVER-11 test results and Bogotá scored 10 points higher.
09:44on
09:44of the rest of the country improving. Of course, and that has to do with that specific program of the
09:49tutoring in recent years, because one cannot, because one is going to be SAVER-11 and one cannot
09:53to say that
09:53The quality of SAVER-11 has improved in the last two years because these guys were already in the
09:57school all the time, but it does re-demonstrate that there is a specific intentionality of the city
10:02to help young people in grades 10 and 11 to make up for the things they didn't learn.
10:07Yes, another area where I saw improvements in Bogotá, which ultimately brings together people from all over the country,
10:15It's about the improvement in dropout rates. Did the dropout rate decrease? Why and how?
10:20Yes, I have significantly reduced the dropout rate because schools have become protective environments.
10:25Which is very important, but also because we already have available slots. This is a reality in the country.
10:29in general, but particularly in Bogotá. Bogotá no longer has quota problems because of the issue
10:33demographic, because what we have are schools that can include all children and also
10:39They've been making a lot of effort on the issue of inclusion for many years. What does that mean? That
10:44All children who have any deficiency, whether due to a cognitive issue, being an immigrant, or because
10:50Having a displacement condition, for some reason, they have specific support so that they do not
10:56desert, which is usually the boys who desert.
10:59But inclusion is one thing, and a good level of learning is another.
11:04With quality. Is that improving too?
11:07Of course, I would like to believe that in Bogotá things are improving because there is an intention to do so.
11:11specific to quality improvement. Then we return to the topic of competencies.
11:17basics and going back to the fundamentals. Now, that's being measured, which is the other thing that
11:22It's very important. When you implement a program, which is something that can be done nowadays...
11:26You can easily implement formative assessment. And formative assessment is about looking at
11:31Specifically, almost in real time, if what the program is actually doing
11:36It's achieving results. Previously, those methodologies weren't as well-designed or as effective.
11:41practices in their method of evaluation. So one had to wait until knowing 11 to know
11:46If what he did worked. And up to Knowledge 11, well, that's the whole generation. As we also had
11:52a problem in recent years at the national level in relation to evaluations,
11:57Because learning was also happening in third, fifth, and ninth grade. That was very
12:02It's important to look at the traceability of the improvement. That has had all sorts of interruptions.
12:07Unfortunately, this is due to the ICFES. And so, the only way to truly compare the
12:12In recent years we've done it in Saber 11. But that's very difficult for an implemented program.
12:16Too late. You can't really say "sorry" to many others. I made this effort, but if you don't
12:20He learned it, so what do we do now? So, this issue of formative assessment is another one of the...
12:24Public policy recommendations are very important. Let's not wait until the end of the
12:29Schooling to see if the children learned. Exactly. You say interruptions. The level
12:35Does the national government really have a good connection with Bogotá, which is leading the way, or what's going on there?
12:40Differences? How to unify? Of course. The way the education system works is completely
12:47centralized. The Ministry of Education has been responsible for the distribution of resources.
12:51general system of participations and delivers those resources to the cities and the cities
12:57They manage it and implement their improvement programs. But the ministry has another
13:01a very important role, which is the promotion of specific public policy. So if I have an interest
13:08Specifically regarding the improvement of basic skills, the ministry manages to generate incentives
13:13in the territorial entities so that they implement programs that respond, whether academic, whether with
13:19resources, or with technical support, either way. But it also has the level
13:24Nationally, the responsibility for evaluating and assessing is what ICFES specifically does, and that is what
13:31It has been losing its trajectory, its traceability, because they have stopped doing the tests
13:37standardized forms that provided information to territorial entities to enable them to make decisions
13:42of improvement. So Bogotá is very atypical because, I repeat, it's one of the few
13:48territorial entities of the country that have also maintained an effort to put their own resources into it
13:53additional, that it is an extra effort for improvement, but and it could work very well
13:58in coordination with the national level, but when relationships are managed and when the level
14:03The national government truly has an interest in children and in helping children improve their learning.
14:08Of course, now comes the situation with the change of government; they are presenting us with a new minister of
14:14Culture, a new education minister, and you hear them saying that education has to start
14:19Because of the Bible and the Catholic religious factor. What does that tell you?
14:24Well, look, I think all administrations always have priorities. The previous one got involved in...
14:28This issue of higher education, which wasn't very successful, also had a female prime minister.
14:32Quite good, and then a minister who, well, in my opinion, leaves much to be desired.
14:38What's going on right now? Well, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but I
14:42I think that
14:42Once again, my main recommendation would be with this call for PISA, which is indeed so
14:48Appropriate for the start of a government and provides a very clear opportunity: let's focus on what's important
14:54And what's really important is that the children learn. I mean, let's think about the children and remember that the children
14:59They need to get to school, have a protective environment, but also have an environment where they can
15:04Learning so they can develop their life projects. That's the fundamental thing. Everything else can be...
15:11Specific interests of the administrations, but that's not fundamental within the sector. In other words, the issue
15:17Ideologically, the religious aspect, well, it's fine that they want to promote one thing or not, let's say independently.
15:23Whether I agree with that or not, and whether the constitution is being respected, and that
15:27the
15:27That everyone's rights are being respected is very important, and obviously this is part of the educational process.
15:31That's also very, very important, but let's focus on the children learning. I don't think it's that difficult.
15:36In other words, it's difficult to get them to learn. I understand that it's a big effort, and I also understand that
15:41Politically, I've been doing this for so many years, it's difficult because the benefits of learning are not reaped.
15:45In four years. You plant the seed now and you're seeing the results in eight, twelve years. So it's difficult.
15:52to make a commitment to educational improvement, but I do believe that we must take advantage of this opportunity
15:57the PISO tests and say, well, let's set up something real so the children can relearn.
16:03The essentials. In that sense, I'm interested in delving deeper into the technology factor. This year has been very
16:11It's special because all this time, very well-known international figures have been resigning.
16:17on the topic of artificial intelligence, warning that AI is impacting the whole world, but
16:23especially education. The latest was Jacob Coxon, a researcher at Antropic and OpenAI, who stated
16:31That the world is in danger, including basic and university education. Is that overly alarmist or is it real?
16:38Well, to put it better, I think that technology, technology in general, has had... right now
16:45We entered the realm of AI, but technology has had both positive and negative impacts on knowledge.
16:52Unfortunately, based on what we're seeing in PISA, it seems to be more bad than good in terms of
16:56to achieve basic skills. Then the fact that children spend so much time in front of a screen,
17:02that they don't do serious rationalization and comprehension exercises, that they don't learn to
17:08to write, that they read, well, that they read very little, because the truth is not only that they don't understand,
17:12It's because they're not reading; they watch everything on video. So there's no accurate analysis, and I think that
17:17in that
17:18We need to start making radical changes so that basic skills can be strengthened again.
17:24And that means no technology, and no technology in the classroom. Now, regarding artificial intelligence,
17:29Well, I think it's a threat to everything, but it can also be a great opportunity, as we know with
17:34All these things, and I think above all that it's already here. Therefore, it's not like, let's say,
17:39No, well how awful, that's it, I mean, let's protect the school, the school or the educational institutions
17:44superior to artificial intelligence. I believe there is progress in understanding how that can indeed enrich
17:53the learning process. So, I recently read an article from MIT that draws some very interesting points about
18:01how they are no longer pursuing the fact that young people may be copying information
18:06not from using artificial intelligence to generate things, but from how they are conducting the exams,
18:12about how they are asking the questions, about how they went back to written exams so that the
18:19artificial intelligence can truly be a companion, a support in the learning process,
18:25but that they don't break, let's say, their process of rationalization and understanding in all this.
18:32So, I do believe that educational institutions and countries that implement
18:37Educational policies linked to AI, but knowing what it can do positively and what it should do,
18:47in quotation marks, fight to avoid creating more problems of understanding and structuring
18:54basic, let's say, of the brain in terms of skills. I think they are the ones who will anticipate.
19:00so that this will indeed be a positive tool. Now, if we do what we did with the
19:04Technology, which is, look, let's see, the future can be quite uncertain in the educational process.
19:11Bill Gates, the magnate, has just published a rather interesting essay entitled
19:16The turbulent era of AI is already here. The decisions we make now are crucial and demand...
19:24He says it's extremely urgent to implement regulatory systems in every country within a year and a half.
19:29What kind of regulation would you envision for AI in relation to education?
19:34Yes. I, for example, let's say, that call to Bill Gates has a very clear objective that
19:42It has to do with what's happening with social media. That's why it's the topic of
19:46Let's regulate before, not after. What's happening with social media?
19:51That social networks were invented and ended up generating all kinds of mechanisms for
19:55to create vice in everyone, in adults, but in young people, forget about it, but in us
19:59as well. And today we're seeing this trial against Meta in California, and Meta is already...
20:07acknowledging that they did indeed use methodologies to corrupt users of the
20:13Social media. Bill Gates's call stems somewhat from what's happening there. Because if not
20:20We respond beforehand that this is going to end up happening. The interest, let's say, of the creators and
20:27AI producers and developers will ensure that we use it more and more independently
20:31of what the consequences will be for humans, for young people, and for the educational process.
20:37However, regulation has to, and I believe that's the flaw in what happened in the
20:43networks
20:44Social regulations should focus on the producer, not the consumer. In other words, they shouldn't put obstacles in the way of...
20:50Consumer, the only thing that educational processes and prohibitions achieve, for me, is the only thing that makes a difference to the consumer.
20:54What they achieve is that things break down and that young people do more things, and do them under the table, because
20:59Prohibition always generates that. So there needs to be, let's say, a major appeal that I think...
21:04Besides, you don't know whether to believe them or not, but the executives of all these companies...
21:08AI, they themselves are making a self-appointed statement saying, well, we all need to stop here
21:14A little, and above all, we need to have the appropriate security controls in place. And regarding the issue of
21:19In education, the issue of security is vital, because if one starts to obtain incorrect information,
21:24or that it is not age-appropriate at the time, or that it makes biased analyses, for example,
21:29We know what happens from the analyses one is doing, so I really believe that one just goes
21:34ultimately making a fool of oneself. So, no way around it, because one is young and in the process of
21:39Learning. So I think the issue of self-regulation, the call above all, has to do with how the
21:45Providers offer services to third parties, and that obviously includes a group of people, children,
21:51Girls and young women, who need special treatment in accessing AI.
21:57And how do you envision those regulations within the classroom?
22:02What I think is that in the classroom, especially in elementary and secondary school,
22:06There shouldn't be any kind of technology. I mean, only for specific things and things.
22:13fundamental and that the teacher, let's say, uses it to show things, obviously on boards,
22:17Interactive, all that, but not with young people constantly doing things on the computer.
22:23Because it's also one thing, then another, then another. The moment they open the computer,
22:28You don't know everything that goes on there. I mean, there's no teacher in front of a class.
22:31that can make you realize the number of things young people do in front of one of these devices
22:36And how does your mind end up involved in 18 things and yet nothing? So there has to be a use for it.
22:43Obviously, we're not going to demonize technology. Bald people are already born completely bald.
22:51Technological literacy. That was a concern before, that some would be left behind.
22:55That's not happening. You know how it is with the kids. Any young person can do anything better than one of them.
23:00in technology. They already have that process in their DNA, basically. So they just need to use it
23:06For very specific things. So, hopefully, AI would be specifically motivated for specific tasks.
23:12Starting with the professor himself. See what the AI tells you about this and ask your questions.
23:19Regarding that. But not like, go and investigate, and then go and investigate without any
23:23Targeting. Well, I'm going to get all the results directly from AI and I'm not going to do
23:27no analysis. I think the challenge for teachers is great, but I also think there is a number
23:36of tools that make the job easier because of the amount of access to information they have
23:40young people. So it's a matter of understanding that the information is already there, that what we have to do is help them.
23:46the children
23:46And for young people, it's about being able to interpret it, analyze it, and question it, not so much about finding it.
23:52That's correct. You were the education manager at the Compartir Foundation.
23:56They conducted a very interesting study on teacher excellence. Can that be updated, or what was its purpose?
24:02Well, that brings us to another very important topic, which is that after this last step
24:08From the public sector, it became extremely clear to me that there can be no educational improvement.
24:14if the teaching profession does not change.
24:18That brings us into the realm of public policy. There are two things in public policy that the government
24:22The national government has not done this, and it is their responsibility. One thing is to change the transfer law.
24:27Now they are discussing that competition law, which is something else, but it's the same, but not.
24:31That law was created and finalized in 2016. All we've done is postpone its implementation.
24:38of the same law
24:39which no longer meets the needs of the sector. Previously, payments were made per child served; now, far fewer children are served.
24:44because far fewer children are being born, as local authorities can no longer cover the costs
24:49only with enrolled children. Then the costs end up being paid to the local government.
24:53And that makes the system completely inefficient. There's a policy involved, there's a law...
24:59And that's where a reform is needed, and it's urgent. But the one you're asking me about...
25:03What does it have to do with the study behind teaching excellence? Don't think I haven't thought about it.
25:09It's one of the things that even we researchers have thought about, we haven't had
25:12like the time to get organized and see if we can find some resources to do an update
25:16Because the teaching statute and career path need to change. The teaching statute and career path
25:22The new ones started being implemented in the early 2000s. We've had that statute for over 25 years now.
25:28I think it was extremely useful in organizing the sector. I think it achieved some very good things.
25:34But it's completely stalled. Why? Because the teachers lack motivation.
25:42Then you enter the public teaching sector, you win a competition, you do a one-year evaluation
25:48And it stays there for life. And it doesn't matter if it's good, bad, or mediocre, it stays there.
25:53But it also can't be transferred anywhere. And this isn't an attack on teachers.
26:00I believe that the teachers themselves would be delighted to have a system that motivates them.
26:06that promotes them, that gives them recognition, that when they get tired of teaching,
26:12which is perfectly normal; they may have the opportunity to do different things.
26:15otherwise they'll have to stay in school for 45 years.
26:19If we don't make a real reform to the issue of the career,
26:24I truly believe in the country's capacity for improvement,
26:27Not only in Bogotá, but throughout the country, the system as we have it is reaching its limit.
26:32Because it is an inefficient system.
26:35In other words, it's time to make the education system a little more efficient.
26:38Of course. He said something that worries me, which is that fewer and fewer children are being born into school.
26:46Thinking about schooling. On the other hand, there are studies showing an increasingly aging population.
26:51Some experts say that in 20 or 30 years the scenario will be school closures.
26:58Fewer students, perhaps university closures.
27:01Is that real?
27:02And at that point, can education be better if it's for fewer people?
27:08Of course. So you answered my question yourself.
27:11Look, if it's real, I think that's not good for the country or the world.
27:16Well, we all know that we need young people to support the adults, and that's where we have a problem.
27:21But for the education sector, this is wonderful.
27:24Wonderful because with fewer children and the same resources as we are currently having,
27:28Well, in theory we're going to have more efficiency and better capabilities to be able to teach.
27:34But that brings me back to the topic of both transfers and the teaching statute.
27:39If we don't prepare now for what's happening and have a more flexible teaching career path, we will fail.
27:45and economic transfers from the nation that truly meet the needs,
27:50Well, this is all going to come crashing down on us.
27:52What we are going to have is a terrible crisis.
27:53We're going to have schools full of teachers and no children.
27:56That's what ends up happening when we can have schools with children and teachers placed where they should be.
28:03And we're also going to have a higher student-teacher ratio because obviously a teaching career takes longer than a student's.
28:09birth rate issue.
28:12And that's wonderful.
28:13I say, the more teachers the better.
28:15But teachers need to be prepared.
28:17They need to be motivated,
28:19They need to be able to be located where they are clearly needed.
28:22And so they have to be willing to change their methods and their way of teaching and receiving education
28:31because the system needs to be much more flexible.
28:34Clear.
28:35You have also had very interesting experience in rural education.
28:41Let's not finish because we've talked about Bogotá, about the national factor,
28:45But in a conflict-ridden country like this, with so many rural areas,
28:50How does all this apply there?
28:51So, who's thinking about rural education, especially after an earthquake like the one that just happened?
28:56Yes, and we were going to say that doing virtual education almost gave me a heart attack.
28:59In which I told him that anonymity,
29:01They took away my anonymity just by doing that.
29:04So yes, it is necessary to place it at the center of public policy,
29:07always the issue of violation,
29:10The most vulnerable population must be included, it must be a priority.
29:14So, one always has to think that the periphery,
29:17that rural areas, that they be the periphery around the country,
29:21It needs to have a much, much bigger focus.
29:24in any type of policy that is implemented.
29:27The issue of the teaching profession also becomes a priority for that.
29:31In order to deliver resources to the places where they are needed,
29:34to where the children need them most.
29:37If one puts the child at the forefront of public policy,
29:40If one remembers who one works for every day,
29:42All of this can be done.
29:43The problem is that we public officials forget.
29:46Because there are so many administrative issues going around in circles.
29:49that one forgets who one works for.
29:51Well.
29:53Isabel Segovia,
29:54a glimpse into why we need to think deeply about education in Colombia.
29:58Thank you for visiting the viewer, Isabel.
30:00Nelson, thank you very much for the invitation.
30:02Thank you for following El Espectador Interviews.
30:05Thank you.
30:16Intro
30:17Thanks for watching the video.
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