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00:00:00I think the Mets do need to hire a general manager. And if I were thinking about what
00:00:04that general manager should be, it should be somebody who really, really knows and respects
00:00:10the analytics, but is good at applying it to the world. I think it needs to be somebody who has
00:00:17feel for New York, because I think that not bringing back Pete Alonso to some degree lacked
00:00:22feel for the marketplace, et cetera. And somebody who's young and energetic and cares about the
00:00:28Mets, I think I just described David Cohn. And by the way, Ron Darling, I think would fall into that
00:00:37also. And I am being serious about it. I don't think you have to, I think they need what I
00:00:42just
00:00:43said. I don't know. What do you, what do you, what do you think? Well, bite your, bite your tongue.
00:00:49First of all, John, one of our favorite guests, one of our most insightful guys on all of baseball,
00:00:56especially the New York teams. David Cohn joins us next. Yeah. Not only one of our favorite guests,
00:01:01one of our favorite people and good timing just off that subway series, former Met, former Yankee.
00:01:07So anxious to see what David Cohn has to say about both teams today. Yeah. We'll ask him all about
00:01:13that. I'm sure we'll drill because he was such a great pitcher in New York for both teams into the
00:01:17Cam Schlittler season and a bunch more. John and I will talk about the Mets who are not going to
00:01:22the
00:01:23playoffs and the Yankees who are, we'll play hit and error at the end. If you stick with us on
00:01:28the
00:01:28show with Joel Sherman and John Hayden. John, since you and I were last together, both New York teams
00:01:39clinched. We, not, not surprisingly, we've been anticipating for quite a while that the Mets would
00:01:45not be making the playoffs. We knew for quite a while, the Yankees would be making the playoffs.
00:01:51They played each other over the weekend in an interesting and, and on especially Friday night
00:01:56in a, an emotional, uh, subway series. John, why don't we start with the team that is not going
00:02:02to be playing, uh, post-season baseball, which is the Mets. Uh, just from, you know, we sit next to
00:02:08each other at these games. I obviously read everything you write. You've been somewhat positive,
00:02:12uh, about the Mets status right now. I, I, if I were just to interject, I'm a little more
00:02:18negative about it. Not about 20, 20, 27. I think they've laid some groundwork here by
00:02:23Bichette playing better, maybe Soto and Lindor getting along better. Maybe David Stern's learning
00:02:28his lesson. And most importantly, a group of young players, uh, playing well in the major leagues and
00:02:34a haul at the trade deadline that the Mets hope turn into either major league collateral for them
00:02:39or stuff they could trade to get other stuff. But I just can't believe we're here again. Like,
00:02:44like almost like the lesson wasn't learned. They were the like most disappointing team of
00:02:502025. Do you want to, I know you, you've said the Mariners. I think I've said the Mets for 2026.
00:02:55They're one, two, two, one, one way or the other this year. And I just, it's just a blight on
00:03:01David
00:03:01Stearns, on Steve Cohn and on the group in the clubhouse that this is for me, that this has happened
00:03:07again, even though I think tomorrow might be a more positive outcome because of what's happened in the
00:03:12second half. John, go, go, go where you want with it. I mean, it's a disappointing season, but I mean,
00:03:17I said that all through the first half. So in the second half, look, they played very well.
00:03:22They're probably a top five team, something like that. In, in this, since the deadline,
00:03:28I think the manager, interim, sorry, interim manager, Andy Green has done well. And you said it,
00:03:36you know, a long list of, of things that have gone positively, particularly the kids, right? I mean,
00:03:41I think Christian Scott's been decent. McLean's been excellent in the second half. That's,
00:03:46that's big because they, they need a number one starter. Maybe he can be that number one starter
00:03:52in the next year. And obviously the outfielders have looked good. I mean, particularly Benji's
00:03:58been outstanding in the second half, look good at Yankee stadium. Doesn't seem to be phased by
00:04:03anything. So, you know, and I'd like their deadline. I, you know, I like the fact that they packaged
00:04:09Holmes and Taylor and came up with Jefferson Rojas at top 100 prospects. So that's, that's how they
00:04:15did it. You know, I was a little surprised Luke Weaver didn't get more, that they had to pay some
00:04:21of
00:04:21it down with the year that he was having. You know, I guess they, people, people felt that the
00:04:26contract was high. I don't, I mean, he was pitching great. He hasn't, he's obviously had
00:04:30issues in, in Pittsburgh with poison Ivy, but anyway, I thought deadline by and large was very good.
00:04:36And I like what's going on in the second half. So maybe I'm being too positive. You were neck,
00:04:41you were not as positive going into the season and you were right about that. So maybe, maybe it's
00:04:46okay to be negative, but I, I think, I think I've hit Stearns enough and the Mets enough this year.
00:04:51You know, I actually picked the Mets to win the NL East because I thought the depth,
00:04:55I thought they had depth and I thought they had Steve Cohn's money. And in a close, I, what I
00:05:00expected
00:05:00to be a close race. I thought that was going to prosper in the end. And it turned out they
00:05:06had a lot
00:05:06less depth than I thought. I did too. I did too. But what am I, one of my, I don't
00:05:11think I'm
00:05:12speaking out of school. And one of my chats with Steve Cohn, he said that you were more right about
00:05:17how, how bad they were than I was. We had talked, I had talked, I think late spring training. And
00:05:25the
00:05:25thing I said is I always play in my mind, like, what do I think the percentage of chances of
00:05:30a bad
00:05:30season is. And I said for the Yankees this year, I think it's like five, less, less than 10%. But
00:05:36I
00:05:36said, I still think it's close to one in three for your team. You know? And so I, I thought
00:05:42that
00:05:42there was an implosion possibility. I didn't think it was going to happen because again, I just go back
00:05:47to John, things were so bad to end last year. I was like, well, everyone's going to be sharp and
00:05:52crystal clear and understanding and et cetera. And it turned out David Stearns had a terrible
00:05:57off season. Bichette didn't react well early in the year. The kids weren't up yet. You know,
00:06:04we went through a manager kind of like watch and then a change that kind of dragged on the team
00:06:08and like almost everything that was the negative outcome that could happen for 60 to 80 games
00:06:15happened to them. And like, now you just wonder going into an off season where it's going to be a
00:06:21bridge, right? We're going to have a lockout on December 1st and who knows what comes out of it.
00:06:26If there is a salary cap, the Mets, I'm assuming there's going to be grandfather stuff where you
00:06:30could begin to wind it down. But like, like people who are talking about like Tarek Scooble,
00:06:36that might just be literally impossible to do on this. And they're going to need this internal,
00:06:42like the good news is they've gotten some internal answers and they have to do a manager search
00:06:48in this. John, maybe is that a turn here? What do you, I think both of us think Andy Green
00:06:53has
00:06:53handled this well. I'm going to take the Mets and the man, their word and say that this is not
00:06:59going to be his job next year, though. Who knows? I'm going to assume Alex Cora ends up someplace else.
00:07:06Right. I mean, I think they have difficulties then identifying someone. What do you think?
00:07:11Yeah. Let me, let me just finish up on the Mets and our predictions. We both made it clear on
00:07:16here
00:07:16that we felt the Yankees were a very likely a playoff team. I don't, we didn't see any great
00:07:21mystery there. We both said the Mets could go either way, but I was more positive. Steve was
00:07:27correct about that than you were. And I had them winning the division in terms of the manager.
00:07:32Yeah. I don't think they're lying. I think they prefer Andy Green in the front office for whatever
00:07:37reason. You know, I'm like, don't, don't try to fix what isn't broken. He's done a very good job
00:07:44managing. You know, I, I know that he's a family man, but he's about to be an, he's got a,
00:07:49he's a
00:07:49year from being an empty nester. So I, I mean, he's not going to travel around to the colleges that
00:07:54his
00:07:54kids are going to. So, you know, I, I don't, I believe that he would take the job if given
00:08:00it to
00:08:01him. And why do a search, a search can end badly. We saw that in San Francisco and I am
00:08:07sorry to pick
00:08:07on them. That's the most obvious one, but several teams did not pick the right manager last off season.
00:08:13And I understand there were nine openings and you know, not everybody's going to get it right.
00:08:19And there'll be presumably somewhat fewer openings this year. I, I would not put Andy Green in the
00:08:25front office. I would make him the manager unless you can get Alex Cora. I just think that he's done
00:08:31a good job. And that's the reason that I would do that. Also, if you're looking for a general manager,
00:08:38I would go outside at this point for a general manager. I think they need some new ideas.
00:08:43You know, it doesn't have to all be about the models that suggest that it's about age. I mean,
00:08:49the word passion is not on the model, right? So you, you let go a guy who loves the game
00:08:56more than
00:08:57anything. I talked to Pete Alonso in May and, you know, I used the quotes for the story that appeared
00:09:02yesterday in the post about his return and quotes that I didn't use were the first 10 things he said
00:09:10was about how much he loves the game. And I don't think there's any doubt about that. I mean,
00:09:14the guy rolled over in his Jeep when somebody ran a light and was ready for spring training,
00:09:20you know, a few minutes later. The guy, he doesn't claim that he scheduled the birth at 1am,
00:09:26but you know what? He didn't miss a game. The birth of his first, he loves the game, right? To
00:09:31let him
00:09:32go and then concentrate on his high school teammate who is not as passionate as he, not many are, but
00:09:41Kyle Tucker is a great talent, but does not love the game as much as Pete Alonso does. Nobody does,
00:09:47I don't think, but there seemed to be a big disparity there. You know, I think the Cubs were right
00:09:53to say,
00:09:54you know, we're not giving $60 million to Kyle Tucker. I think the Mets were wrong to not try
00:10:01harder for Alonso. In any case, I think everybody knows that at this point. Yeah, in terms of a
00:10:06manager, yeah, there are other guys out there. I don't think they're going to get Alex Cora. I don't
00:10:12know that they're even going to go for him. I think Alex Cora will go to the Phillies if given
00:10:16that
00:10:16chance. Why not go reunite with Dave Dombrowski? Dave was on our podcast a few weeks ago. He clearly
00:10:23loves Alex Cora. We shall see. I mean, maybe if Mattingly gets the World Series and wins it,
00:10:29maybe they keep Mattingly. Yeah, there aren't. To me, it's a gamble to pick somebody. The names
00:10:37that come to my mind would be Rocco Baldelli. Mattingly, if he doesn't get the job in Philly,
00:10:43not that I'm not sure that he would come. His son is the general manager in Philly. I think he'd
00:10:50be a
00:10:51consultant there. I don't think he'd be on the bench for Cora, but I think he probably would
00:10:54remain there. But I would look at Mattingly. And the guest we had on that you got, I think it
00:11:00was
00:11:00last week, Joe Espada. His contract's up. I don't expect him back in Houston. I know he said very nice
00:11:08things on the show, and I know he likes his job. But the reality of it is they fired a
00:11:16GM after the
00:11:17World Series win. They fired a GM this year in first place. So I think he may be available. So
00:11:23those
00:11:23would be my three off-the-top picks. And I do think it needs to be somebody with experience. I
00:11:28mean,
00:11:28I like Ryan Flaherty, a Cubs bench coach. I don't think you can put somebody who has no major league
00:11:34managing experience in that job. It's too difficult a job. Well, there was a lot there, John. Let me go
00:11:41through some things. I 100% think Joe Espada will be available this offseason. I think that marriage
00:11:49is over one way or the other. Whether he wants to go or they want him to go, I think
00:11:54he's going to be
00:11:55available. I do wonder if, and I have great regard for Andy Green and what he's done, but this does
00:12:02feel
00:12:03like a honeymoon. I think that they almost had to play much better. They have too much talent not to,
00:12:10and it feels like once they kind of like rid themselves of the nastiness of potential contention,
00:12:15they did play much better. So I'd be a little, I like Andy. I would probably, if he said I
00:12:21want to
00:12:21do it, I would probably go that way. But I think there is a possibility that there is a, like
00:12:28a little
00:12:28bit of a honeymoon thing here. And I, John, I agree with you. I think they need somebody with experience
00:12:35to come into this. And then you just need to get lucky, like getting Joe Torre on his fourth job.
00:12:42To, you know, some other, you know, lots of retreads we could list that don't, don't turn
00:12:47out right. I mean, you didn't mention, you know, Brandon Hyde and David Ross and people like that
00:12:55who are going to be in play. And to me, that's throwing darts at a dartboard a little bit. And
00:13:00you
00:13:00just hope you get it right at a time where they've got to get it right. I mean, they just
00:13:05can't,
00:13:05you know, look, Steve Cohen hates when people bring up, you know, the idea that he wanted to
00:13:10win a World Series within the first five years. He talked about two to four with Soto in the first
00:13:1610 years. I mean, they're going the wrong way. The best thing, you mentioned Kyle Tucker,
00:13:20kind of the best thing of the recent Cohen administration is the Dodgers beat him out
00:13:27for Trevor Bauer. The Dodgers beat him out for Edwin Diaz and the Dodgers beat him out for Kyle
00:13:31Tucker. That's kind of like, like those have turned into three booby prizes so far. And I think you
00:13:37know this, like I was a big guy all of last season and into the off season. One thing I
00:13:41will say
00:13:42proudly is like, I'm doing the, how are we comparing Cody Bellinger who loves to play baseball and is
00:13:47great at everything and has played in the three biggest markets and proved he could do it with Kyle
00:13:51Tucker, who like everybody who plays with him says like, you know, it's a job. He shows up. He's
00:13:56really talented and he's good at it. Like, uh, and I'm, I didn't even think that was that close to
00:14:03me. You're right. You're right. Cody Bellinger. He loves the game. He loves the game. Incredibly
00:14:09high IQ baseball player in Chicago, Los Angeles. And he's a great defensive player. I don't think
00:14:15Kyle Tucker is, maybe he was at some point. And he, and as you pointed out many times, uh, he
00:14:21was
00:14:21never the guy on those Houston teams. Right. Not even close. Right. We would say Altuve was ahead
00:14:28of him. Uh, you know, Correa dollars player for a best supporting actor. Maybe I think, you know,
00:14:35it never made sense to me. No, I mean, you know, the Dodge was just to have a lot of
00:14:40money. I was
00:14:41going to say printing money. That would probably be rude in this, in the context. Now we don't really
00:14:47know that they were printing money. It's probably not fair. That could be taken the wrong way, but,
00:14:51uh, obviously they're very, uh, uh, deep pocketed and, uh, they could do whatever they want. And
00:14:58that Otani deal is so good. And they make so much money on Otani, uh, that they have been able
00:15:04to do
00:15:04whatever they want and they're able to make those kinds of mistakes. And that was a mistake. I didn't
00:15:10even get Tucker. I mean, can you imagine if he was not only is he terrible this year, uh, by,
00:15:16you know, uh, any, almost any standard, uh, they have a pretty good outfield, right? I mean,
00:15:22that's their great strength, right? Uh, you know, what, what were they going to put them? I mean,
00:15:26I guess, I guess you could move Soto to DH full-time. I don't know, but, uh, Ewing and Benj
00:15:32are
00:15:32full-time outfielders. So, uh, yeah, they're very fortunate about that. And they're fortunate about
00:15:38Diaz, a guy I advocated for them and for the Yankees. And, uh, uh, he was, he's been awful. Uh,
00:15:44and I saw Jack Harris of the California post suggested, uh, maybe he won't even be on the
00:15:49post-season roster. I think, I think that was a possibility, uh, if he's going to get another
00:15:54outing in the rehab and if he does even decently, he probably will be as, uh, Harris, uh, suggested
00:16:00there, but, uh, what a disaster that's been. I mean, he's been atrocious, uh, to this point. So,
00:16:06uh, yeah, they, and, you know, they missed on those two, but the six that they got,
00:16:11the six big guys, six, they went all for six. Uh, Robert came back to town. He didn't get a
00:16:17tribute like, uh, quite like Alonzo, but he wasn't a success. And there were five others,
00:16:23right? We're going to get Devin Williams back. He has not been very good. Freddie Peralta,
00:16:27who's now good with Tampa, uh, was not good with the Mets. I mean, there were six, there were six
00:16:33big acquisitions. Well, Weaver was good, right? Weaver was one of the six big ones. You know,
00:16:39I mean, yeah, I guess if you go down to the seventh, I'm going, I'm going on the money.
00:16:43I'm always thinking about the money, Joel. You know that. I think the tribute video would
00:16:47have been good for Robert Jr. Like, can you show somebody just in the training, uh, and
00:16:51their, their whole, uh, look, uh, we've given a lot here to the Mets. He actually made the
00:16:56playoffs. Uh, New York yet again is the Yankees. Look, I know the most passionate Yankee
00:17:01fans, the ones who are the loudest on, uh, social media, uh, like they dismiss how much
00:17:08they won for 35 years. You know, almost all of them are also like Nick fans or giant fans
00:17:15or jet fans. I'm like, how do you like, like being in the wilderness for 20 years where you
00:17:20don't, your team never plays interesting games. I think it's remarkable how consistent they've
00:17:25been, how they've turned it over. Uh, you know, they do well, by the way, at the top of free
00:17:32agency, Aaron judge, Max free, Garrett Cole, I think even Carlos Rodon, Cody Bellinger, like
00:17:37these are success stories at the top. Um, let's wait on Max free. We'll give Max free
00:17:42a few more years. That's a deal, but yeah, generally he's been good so far. Yeah. And
00:17:47we all liked it and had a very good year last year. Yes. Uh, and in the short run, helping
00:17:52them be championship contenders, John, I think we're very bullish on them. I, I do think that
00:18:00they have to try as hard as possible. And I, I, you're much better with percentages. Is it
00:18:04one in 10, two in 10 chance of winning the ALEs? Because I just think it's like winning
00:18:09a round of the playoffs in this round of the playoffs is particularly dangerous if they're
00:18:13playing a best two out of three against one of the West teams or the central teams, but
00:18:16the fact that it's the Red Sox and they have so much lefty pitching and that is a bit of
00:18:21a bugaboo mate. Look, judge Homer deep last night. After we, after we did this, I think Ben
00:18:28Rice might've given him some ideas what was coming from second base. Uh, but, uh, that's
00:18:34totally illegal by the way. Uh, but, um, yeah, uh, I, I think that that might help, but I do
00:18:43think it's a danger zone, you know, like Schlittler has a great game, but you don't score. Now
00:18:47you're down one, nothing. And who's Garrett Cole right now in game two. So, so I do think
00:18:52they have to push a little bit and that's dangerous, right? Cause you push and then all of a
00:18:56a sudden your best two out of three, are you, have you exhausted your bullpen? I wonder
00:18:59what you think about their situation right now. Yeah. First on the percentages, I'm going
00:19:04to say it's only 10% that they win that division. There's only like 11 or 12 games left, right?
00:19:08And they're four behind. They'd have to sweep all four from 10, which I think is incredibly
00:19:12low. Right. So I think, I think 10% is probably generous there. Um, so I don't think they're
00:19:17winning the division. They're going to probably play Boston at this point, uh, in the playoffs
00:19:21as they did last year. They got through that. Thanks to Schlittler. Uh, they won
00:19:26that, uh, rubber game and, uh, got through it. Uh, Boston is not a, uh, gimme. Uh, what
00:19:32do you, what do you think on the, on the pitchers? I mean, I'm going to, even though I suggested
00:19:36free, we need a few more years, I'm assuming freed will follow Schlittler. Uh, you know,
00:19:41he being left-handed. That's another plus, uh, Rodon has been better than Cole lately and
00:19:46he is left-handed any shot, you think any shot, there are only three games, any shot Rodon
00:19:52pitches game three over Cole, or they just, I mean, I think they'll defer to Cole just
00:19:56because he's Cole, but I don't know. I don't think it's a terrible idea. Less than their
00:20:01chance of winning the division. 5%. Yeah. But just because I, look, I think if Cole is
00:20:06upright, he's Garrett Cole, Aaron Boone and the Yankees are going to be like, he's Garrett
00:20:12Cole. Like now, will he have a short leash? Yes. But like part of the short leash problem
00:20:17is he's giving up bombs in the first inning. You could be out of the game by the first
00:20:21inning. Yeah. I think I would go with Rodon, but I mean, I don't, I'm, you know, I haven't
00:20:25employed Cole forever and, uh, I don't get any repercussions, not that he's going to, you
00:20:30know, be upset, you know, who knows what, how he'd react. I don't, I don't, I'm sure he
00:20:34wouldn't be happy, but I don't, I think he'd probably be professional about it, but I don't
00:20:38know. Is that a crazy idea? Rodon's been really good lately, right? And they're a little
00:20:43on the left-handed side also. So I, I would kind of do it. So would you definitely throw
00:20:48Freed in two and not Cole? Yes. Yeah. So I think the way you do it is you have Schuttler
00:20:56and Freed, uh, and you pray you win in two and then you worry about starting game. I'm
00:21:04giving you a hypothetical. Yeah, I get it. We answer hypotheticals here. Yeah. I think the
00:21:10answer to it is, John, that I believe that we've covered Aaron Boone for nine years.
00:21:15Yeah. He's not going to, he's not going to go away from Cole. They, Cole and Judge are,
00:21:19you know, the Kings of the clubhouse. When Judge said he's not doing the rehab, they, I'm sure
00:21:24they, they didn't consider give, do making him do the rehab. And I don't think they probably
00:21:28could at this point. And that's just life and I get it. And, uh, maybe this is better
00:21:33anyway. Uh, Judge looks like he needed at least a few days. He looked pretty good last
00:21:39night, but it looked like he needed a few days, but even his presence in the lineup is
00:21:42valuable. So it wasn't like, Oh, it was makes more sense for sure to do the rehab. So you
00:21:47defer to him. But I think on another player, uh, they would tell him what to do. And I think
00:21:52Cole and, and Judge are in that bucket where they, they, they decide what goes on generally.
00:21:57You know, John, uh, as a way to end this segment, cause you mentioned Cole and Judge, it's something
00:22:01I've been thinking about a lot, you know, Cole and Judge are the face of this era, which has
00:22:05kind of been get close and not get over it. But I did mention, you know, no, uh, every year
00:22:11since
00:22:121993, a winning season, almost every one of them, a post season, uh, there are five championships in
00:22:18stuffed in there. Also, uh, I think one of the ways you renew winning is Ben Rice and Schlittler
00:22:26come along. Like, I mean, Ben Rice, isn't going to be Aaron judge, but like, he's a guy, uh, Schlittler
00:22:33might actually be Cole. He might be Jacob deGrom. Actually, the more and more I watch him,
00:22:38but maybe perhaps so far knock on wood for him and the Yankees, a healthier version. Uh, and, uh,
00:22:44maybe Spencer Jones and George Lombard jr. Are part of a middle of the diamond, like, like
00:22:49their, the Mets great story this year was their youth. Like that's the thing to do. The Yankees
00:22:56kind of made the playoffs and they've banked on a lot of their organization guys. And now you could
00:23:00see like, again, if there's a salary cap, uh, or I think we'd say at minimum, there'll be more
00:23:08draconian penalties for if they don't get a salary cap, uh, and how Steinbrenner isn't going to want
00:23:15to pay those penalties. I think what they've produced from their system has been a real positive
00:23:21of their season as well, especially because of how much time Cole and judge did miss this year.
00:23:26Yeah. I mean, uh, the guest is a big part of the show. And I think one of our best
00:23:30guests was Matt
00:23:31Hyde, uh, the scout who signed both Schlittler and rice and they're incredible stories. What was
00:23:36one was a seventh rounder. The other was a 10th or 12th. I don't ninth. Maybe you're right. Maybe
00:23:41you're right. Ninth, uh, rounder. Uh, it's really amazing. Uh, I, I kind of think I, I don't agree
00:23:48that Schlittler is the MVP. I agree with judge that the MVP should be a player and unless the guys,
00:23:53you know, Verlander are sure, uh, you know, somebody who threw 275 innings, uh, you know,
00:24:00maybe Ron Guidry should have been the MVP in 1978. He finished second through Jim Rice. Uh, uh, you
00:24:07know, at, at this stage, uh, I think it's going to be difficult for a starting pitcher to be MVP.
00:24:12Uh, I don't believe the war is precise and I think you're done is the MVP, but I do think
00:24:18Schlittler
00:24:18is the MVP of the, of the Yankees. If you really had to name one and you didn't really care
00:24:22whether it's
00:24:23a pitcher or a hitter, uh, but they're both been incredible. They are the two MVPs, uh, of the
00:24:28team. So you're absolutely right. The youth has been great. And Spencer Jones has been outstanding.
00:24:33Uh, you know, I had several scouts tell me, Oh my God, that swing, it's not going to be working.
00:24:38It's working. You know, I mean, there are people with different setups, different swings, and, uh,
00:24:43you know, uh, they make it work. The guy's an incredible talent. He's got huge power. He's got big
00:24:49speed, more speed, even than judge. Uh, not slow, but he's average speed. Uh, he's a great talent.
00:24:57And, uh, I do believe in Lombard, although he's been a little shaky lately. Uh, so yeah, I'm with
00:25:02you. Uh, the youth has really, really helped them this year. Yeah. Ben Rice was a 12th rounder,
00:25:08uh, uh, for, for the Yankees, uh, a first round draft choice on this show because he's been on multiple
00:25:15times. And as always a great guest is David Cohn. He'll be joining us next on the show.
00:25:25One of our favorite guests, uh, David Cohn, uh, could be forgotten as time passes. Uh,
00:25:31one of the best pitchers of his era, 194 wins, the 1994 AL Cy Young award winner, a five-time
00:25:37champion and a key to the championship years, uh, both for when he was a blue Jay and then for,
00:25:43for, for with the Yankees, uh, yes, broadcaster. And he, uh, blessedly took over, uh, the Ed Lucas
00:25:48foundation golf tournament, uh, which is a bit big, uh, deal every year and a big success. He took it
00:25:54was handed from Phil Rizzuto to Gene Michael to David Cohn. That's quite a baton pass, uh, in history
00:26:00and charity. Uh, and David, we appreciate you joining us again on the show. My pleasure. Old
00:26:06friends, man. It makes it sound like, uh, pitched in the black and white era, right? Yes.
00:26:11Yes. You know, the old days when a player was standing in front of his locker and had something
00:26:15interesting to say, uh, we miss it. Uh, David, you know, uh, you were there for the subway series,
00:26:22uh, once again, like the star of the series perhaps, and the star of the Yankee season has
00:26:27been Cam Schlittler. Uh, and I I've just been thinking a lot about in my, in my lifetime. I mean,
00:26:34I saw Seaver seasons early. I don't have a, you know, like great memories of it. The two that stand
00:26:39out obviously are doc in 85, uh, and Guidry in 78. And I don't know if it's apples to apples
00:26:47because those guys both pitched like 270 innings. Then Guidry pitched in the post season and,
00:26:52you know, Schlittler's going to get to 200. So I'm like, do I do the next level down? Is he
00:26:56having
00:26:56a Jacob deGrom season? Cause that's probably the next best I've seen in my time, uh, watching.
00:27:02I just wonder as a great former pitcher watching it, where, where do you kind of fit it in? And
00:27:07what,
00:27:07what, what do you think of it? Uh, you did great framing, Joel, because obviously contacts matters
00:27:13and, you know, Ron Guidry was throwing eight or nine innings, you know, the pitchers back then
00:27:18were allowed to throw more innings. So more opportunities to give up more runs. But with
00:27:22that being said, the fact that Cam Schlittler's thrown 21 games this year where he's given up
00:27:27zero or one run, I don't care if he's pitching six innings or averaging whatever he's, his average
00:27:32is better than most at or near the top in terms of average innings per start. Uh, that says
00:27:39a lot. Um, where would the Yankees be without him? 21 times they had to just score two runs,
00:27:45one or two runs to win a ball game. Uh, you know, that's a, that's a measurable on how,
00:27:51how, what the impact was that was, was on the team, the bullpen, the defense, there's a residual
00:27:57effect all the way down through with him when he pitches and a confidence that's kind of that
00:28:02clubhouse chemistry thing. That's hard to quantify in today's analytic world. Uh, you know, he's got
00:28:07some of the, he's had one of the best seasons I've seen in the, in the stack cast error, we'll
00:28:12say,
00:28:12as we look for context here. So, I mean, the debate now is, is he the MVP or is your
00:28:18Don? We saw that
00:28:19Aaron judge, uh, uh, very honestly said that it should be a hitter. Uh, I happen to agree with him
00:28:26unless you, you know, we're going back to the run Guidry and Dwight Gooden or whatever. And they
00:28:30didn't, they didn't win. I don't, Gooden didn't win the MVP. I don't think Guidry definitely did
00:28:34not win the MVP because I was a Yankee follower at that time. I recall that. Uh, what do you
00:28:40think?
00:28:40You have a vote. I'm putting you on the spot. Yes. Who gets the, who gets the vote? Is Schlittler
00:28:45the MVP or your Don Alvarez? I love this conversation because it's so controversial, you know,
00:28:51and there's so many different varying opinions. And, uh, yeah, my first thing would be to Aaron
00:28:56judge would be, you know, I understand your sentiment. I understand John, your sentiment,
00:29:00but maybe we need to change the rules then, you know, under the current rules, you know,
00:29:06pitcher can win the MVP. So it creates this debate. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe this,
00:29:10we should keep this going exactly the way it is. Now, with that being said, we look at the field,
00:29:15right? Yordan Alvarez, Bobby Witt Jr. I still believe the old school thing that I learned
00:29:23from you guys was if you take that, what does value mean? What does most valuable mean? Not stats.
00:29:28If you took Schlittler off the Yankees this year, where would they be? If you took Bobby Witt off the
00:29:33Royals, Bobby Witt Jr. off the Royals this year, where would they be? If you took Yordan Alvarez,
00:29:38now this is a good one. If you took Yordan Alvarez off the Astros, where would they be? So
00:29:41in terms of the subjective, most valuable part of this award, Schlittler's right up there. He
00:29:48deserves, he deserves definitely strong consideration. Yeah. You know, just look,
00:29:53I happen to side with, I think a position, like, unless you're having a Guidry Gooden year,
00:29:58I do think it should be a position player, but it's not hard for me. And I think you mentioned
00:30:03all of it, David, to make a valuable case, which is, you know, the only other starter who kind of
00:30:09made
00:30:10it from soup to nuts was Will Warren, who's been very valuable for the Yankees, but ultimately is
00:30:15a number five, number six type starter for them. The other guys, Cole missed a long time. Rodan missed
00:30:21a long time. Freed's been on the aisle twice. And so, like, those, these 200 innings by Schlittler
00:30:27are incredibly valuable for saving a bullpen that we feel has been overused anyway, especially at the
00:30:33end game. Uh, and for two months, the Yankees didn't score and like they won games because
00:30:41Schlittler was giving up zero or one. And so they only had to get to one or two. And by
00:30:45the way,
00:30:45that's what they were getting to one or two. So I, I, I can make the valuable case for him.
00:30:52Oh, absolutely. You can, you know, and I, I, back to the, the numbers that I threw at you at
00:30:56the,
00:30:57the top of the show here was 21 times, 21 games started zero or one run, give it up. You
00:31:04know,
00:31:04the old saying in the dugout, I've, I've said it here and there and it's more bravado, you know,
00:31:08a pitcher walking around before the game saying, just get me one run today, guys, just get me one.
00:31:13That's all we need. I actually did that one time and it didn't work out so well, but you know,
00:31:17that's kind of a, that's a clubhouse chemistry thing for, for Cam Schlittler was more than a
00:31:21clubhouse chemistry thing. It was a real thing for him. Zero or one runs given up in 21
00:31:26game started. What does that translate to in the standings? Plus 10 over 500 plus 15. How many
00:31:35games better were they, you know, because of him and that particular number? You know what? I want
00:31:42to turn to another pitcher on the Yankees and another great pitcher. And that's Cole. What do
00:31:47we think? The last two starts have been a little rough. You're the pitching expert here. What do you
00:31:52think the reason is? And am I crazy? I would, you know, against Boston, lefty heavy team. I would
00:31:59even, if you get to game three, I might even go with Rodon, who's been great lately in that start.
00:32:05I know that's not going to happen, but tell me if I'm crazy on that and really what's, what's going
00:32:10on with Cole, who is arguably the best pitcher over the last decade. Right. Well, I guess, you know,
00:32:16the last part first, you know, um, what was the Joe Girardi line all those years when you guys
00:32:21covered him? You know, it's not what you want. Uh, you know, Aaron Boone's line this year is we'll
00:32:26see. So, uh, yes, I think we'll see your point, John. Um, with that being said, Gary Cole, I think
00:32:34there's a couple of things going on here. Post Tommy John, obviously you, you kind of, it's a mixed bag.
00:32:40You don't know what to expect. I think he's been much better than we thought he would be at this
00:32:46point. Uh, the problems of the last two starts are keeping the ball in the ballpark. The home runs
00:32:50are a problem. I think it's down to the secondary pitches, his slider and curve ball have not been,
00:32:57uh, he's kind of been fought in between, uh, Mel Stottlemyre and I used to talk about this a lot.
00:33:03It's hard to be a four pitch pitcher all the time. Sometimes you need to be, be a two pitch
00:33:08pitcher
00:33:08when you're struggling. And for Garrett Cole, I see a guy who's kind of, the wheels are spinning
00:33:13when he does get two strikes or when he does get in a position where he needs to throw a
00:33:17slider or
00:33:18a curve ball, a knuckle curve or a changeup. He's kind of caught in between on which pitch to use
00:33:23to
00:33:23which batter. And for me, the knuckle curve should be the left-handed batters and the slider should be
00:33:28the right-handed batters. And the quality of those pitches are what protect your fastball. It's sort of
00:33:34like, you know, uh, you, you go to the Sopranos, you know, you go to protection mode. You need some
00:33:39protection for that fastball. And his last start, there was a lot of hard contact, a lot of a hundred
00:33:45mile an hour type exit velocities off of his fastball at least seven or eight times throughout
00:33:52the course of that start. There were fastballs that were scalded. And to me, that just leans back
00:33:56to, they're not respecting your secondary stuff. They're sitting on your fastball. You got to get some
00:34:01protection for your fastball and you got to do something about your secondary pitches and get
00:34:06your slider tunneling again on that same plane off of that fastball. And that will give you what
00:34:11you're looking for. You know, one of the great swing and miss pitchers of all time, uh, especially
00:34:17with that fastball, he did not have a swing and miss with his four scene fastball against the Mets,
00:34:21which was really, I think he only had three and 77 pitches, uh, all night. And, uh, uh, so really,
00:34:28or afternoon, I think. Uh, so it really, really, uh, uh, stood out. You mentioned Tommy John. I kind of
00:34:35feel like Clark Schmidt and potentially Ryan Weathers are really important players for the Yankees for
00:34:43the post season. Uh, there's been a lot of leaning on Blackburn. There's been a lot of leading on
00:34:47Hedrick. Tim Hill has become way too Homer susceptible for a ground ball guy. I get that,
00:34:54you know, you've gotten stuff out of Fulmer and Schreiber, but like they just showed up off the street
00:34:58recently, the stuff of Schmidt and Weathers when fully healthy are, is really good. Can they do
00:35:06enough in a short period where you're like, Hey, I'm going to give them the ball in a big spot.
00:35:14I mean, Weathers might not even be able to pitch in the regular season and get put on the postseason
00:35:19roster because he's Ryan Weathers got a big arm and was pitching great. I just wonder,
00:35:24can you kind of join the postseason like in progress and be effective as a pitcher after
00:35:30not pitching for a, in Schmidt's case, a long, long time. And in Weathers case a month.
00:35:35You mean like bringing in Esther Cortez to face Freddie?
00:35:38Yes. Yes. I'm thinking, I'm thinking about that, but also like, I think, and it's not like
00:35:43he missed time. Like you couldn't, you remember this literally 30 years ago, you couldn't pitch
00:35:47worse than Graham Lloyd did for six weeks as a Yankee. And then you don't win a world series
00:35:51without Graham Lloyd. So I'm always in short samples, ready to like see something different.
00:35:56I'm just wondering about you. You're an expert on pitching as John said, it's about the arm,
00:36:01the readiness, like, can you be locked in? Cause you gotta be locked in. This is the postseason.
00:36:07Can they be locked in enough that you, Aaron Boone can say, I'm going to give you the ball in
00:36:12a big
00:36:12spot. If Weathers is healthy, he's still fairly built up. He hasn't been out that long. You know,
00:36:19it's not like it's been four months where he needs a rehab start. It'd be a couple of bullpen
00:36:22sessions. And, you know, if he's strong, then you kind of trust him a little more because he has,
00:36:27you know, a full C, almost a full season behind him, three quarters of a season of work. And that
00:36:33comes back quicker. But what I will say this, I saw a video of Clark Schmidt pitching and I've
00:36:38talked to Matt Blake about it. And the spin on his breaking stuff is as good as it's ever been.
00:36:43His rehab starts have gone as good as you would have possibly wanted. He's an interesting guy because
00:36:48of his ability to spin a baseball. He's a 3000 RPM breaking ball guy. He's a buzzsaw when he's
00:36:54right, the way he can really spin a baseball. And that to me is the valuable part in postseason.
00:37:00You want somebody who can spin a baseball and miss bats, especially from the right side that can
00:37:04really compliment what they have down there in the bullpen. They, you know, Blackburn's more of a
00:37:09starter's repertoire, paint master, mix it up. He's not a nasty spin guy. I think Clark Schmidt could be a
00:37:17really good compliment down there. And judging from his rehab starts, the spin is there. So yeah,
00:37:23it presents an interesting option. I'm going to go off the board on this a little bit. Now you had
00:37:28a
00:37:28great career, in my opinion, a Hall of Fame career. But you did change teams a lot, not always of
00:37:35your
00:37:35own choosing. So you had some homecomings. You played for your hometown team a couple times. You played for
00:37:41both New York teams. You played in Canada. You played all over. But what's your reaction?
00:37:44We had two guys who are fantastic players return to a former haunts, their former team.
00:37:54Alonzo, obviously. And, you know, Soto, now he had returned last year as well. But they certainly
00:38:00got very different reactions. We're not surprised that they're different. But how do you react to
00:38:05these reactions? I mean, was that, were those reactions appropriate?
00:38:10Anything's appropriate. When you pay the prices to go to these stadiums nowadays, you know,
00:38:14the fans, that's part of the allure. I mean, I love the ups and downs of it. You know, even
00:38:19you
00:38:19guys know, I mean, if you get booed, then, you know, you're just accountable. If somebody writes
00:38:24something bad about you, you don't get overly sensitive about it. You know, you go out there
00:38:30and you prove yourself. You use it as motivation. So Juan Soto is a different cat, no doubt about it.
00:38:35I mean, he marches to the beat of his own drummer. But when the Mets broadcast booth,
00:38:42my guys, you know, Gary, Keith, and Ron, when they're getting on Juan Soto about running out
00:38:47of double when he smells a hit and not running out of double play ball to end the game, that's
00:38:52a problem, I think. That's your own booth. That's Gary, Keith, and Ron. And, you know,
00:38:57I know they're old school, but that was a bit of a problem. Now, as far as Pete Alonzo goes,
00:39:01what a gem of a human being. I mean, this kid, you know, he wears his heart on his sleeve.
00:39:06I saw him and the owner, Mr. Cohen, get together before the batting cage and kind of have a little
00:39:12pleasantry exchange. So Pete Alonzo is beloved by the Mets, and he earned it. I mean, he's homegrown,
00:39:20came up through, was a big part of that franchise and the turnaround of that franchise.
00:39:25Big playoff, big hits in late season, Bennett Ray. So he deserves it. You know, this goes down to
00:39:32the analytics-driven analysis of what are first baseman's worth, you know, each position. Seems
00:39:38like we change this every five years, too, you know. That's the thing about analytics. The data
00:39:44becomes obsolete in five years. Jeff Lou now taught me that about 10 years ago. So, yeah, you know,
00:39:50Pete suddenly is more valuable, right? Oh, and that slugging first baseman doesn't play that great
00:39:55of defense. RBIs aren't that important. Well, wait a minute. We'll kind of miss that guy, right?
00:40:01So, yes, I love Pete Alonzo. I think Juan Soto is a generational talent. He's a bit of an enigma.
00:40:07And, you know, as I said before, yeah, I'm not Johnny Hustle, old school guy. Hey, you know,
00:40:13I get it. He's had two calf injuries. But when he legged out that double the other day at Yankee
00:40:18Stadium,
00:40:19when he smelled a hit, and then he didn't run out a double play ball that ended the game, that
00:40:23was
00:40:24a little bit eye-opening. Yeah, you know, analytically or anyway, right-hand power is
00:40:30absent in the game now. That's kind of, I think, what was missed when Alonzo's a free agent, and maybe
00:40:36a whole bunch of teams should have been willing to do what the Orioles were willing to do because
00:40:40that was out there. Look, if John's going to go off the board, I'm going to go off the board
00:40:44a little
00:40:44bit here, David, and I hope you'll not mind this. I've been thinking a lot recently. I think the Mets
00:40:51do need to hire a general manager. And if I was thinking about what that general manager should
00:40:56be, it should be somebody who really, really knows and respects the analytics, but is good at
00:41:03applying it to the world. I think it needs to be somebody who has feel for New York, because I
00:41:09think
00:41:09that, like, not bringing back Pete Alonzo to some degree, lacked feel for the marketplace, etc.
00:41:16And somebody who's young and energetic and cares about the Mets, I think I just described David Cohn.
00:41:23Yeah. And by the way, Ron Darling, I think, would fall into that also. And I am being serious about
00:41:29it. I don't think you have to, I think they need what I just said. I don't know. What do
00:41:35you think?
00:41:36Well, bite your tongue, first of all. And secondly, you know, I saw, yeah, I guess I can crystallize
00:41:45this with a quote I saw from Jeff Bezos recently, and the Amazon Jeff Bezos. And he was talking about
00:41:52analytics and within the business and artificial intelligence. And he said, you know, what about
00:41:58anecdotal evidence? What about when, you know, some of your lower level workers come to you with ideas
00:42:03or something that's going wrong in the business? And he said, how do you handle that? And he said,
00:42:07well, I look at all of it. But he said, anecdotal evidence needs more of more of a seat at
00:42:12the table,
00:42:12because these guys are in the middle of it. They have experience that's hard to quantify.
00:42:16So yeah, I mean, the right balance between, you know, obviously, new school, you have to be fluent,
00:42:24you have to be very bright. All of these executives are, you need to be, you need to understand
00:42:30exactly the cutting edge technology and what that means for your pitchers and your hitters.
00:42:35But at the same time, there's, there's a seat at the table there missing that somebody with anecdotal
00:42:41evidence or experience can really fill a void that is kind of been shown the door over the recent
00:42:49history, right? A lot of these types of people or personnel have been shown the door or devalued,
00:42:54so to speak. And I think that's coming back around a little bit in my mind, stylistically of
00:43:02pitching, stylistically of hitting. The Yankees have a guy doing the butcher boy in the minor leagues,
00:43:06you know, just putting the ball in play that can fly all of a sudden, a high contact guy.
00:43:10It kind of feels like, hmm, we're rethinking this thing a little bit. And that doesn't mean to say
00:43:16that analytics are ruining the game. I love analytics. I love data. I want more information.
00:43:21But how do you put it in its place? And how do you balance it with, you know, what you
00:43:26what you see,
00:43:27what you feel, what you've experienced, and something you feel that is kind of universal with
00:43:32a lot of experienced guys needs to have a voice. That was good lawyering, by the way,
00:43:36you didn't actually answer what I asked. No, you, I like that answer. It was a great answer.
00:43:42It was a great answer. Well, I'm going to go a little further with it. You've always been an analytics
00:43:47guy,
00:43:47you've you've been interested in analytics right from the beginning. You know, not to pick on the
00:43:53Mets, but, you know, Pete's passion for the game was, I don't know if they they didn't seem to value
00:44:01that, right? Am I am I crazy here? They went for Kyle Tucker, who, you know, he's a professional.
00:44:07He's a great talent. But nobody looks at him and says this is a lunch pail guy, you know, that
00:44:16that
00:44:16that meant something, I think, with Peter. I mean, the guy played every he got rolled over in his Jeep
00:44:21on his way to spring training and wouldn't miss a spring training game. I mean, yeah, the immeasurable
00:44:28part. Exactly right. How do you measure that? You can't put that, you know, under a microscope and
00:44:33look at it and say, how does this is this is this a five war guy? You know, how many
00:44:37how many wins
00:44:38does this add to your team? And how do you quantify clubhouse presence? And what is clubhouse
00:44:43chemistry? And does that really matter? Or how do you value it? Yes, there's there's a little bit
00:44:49of a black hole there in terms of, you know, where do we place this? So what does it really
00:44:55mean?
00:44:56And I don't I don't blame the great the sabermetricians of our era, the Tom Tango's even
00:45:02the, you know, all the way back to Bill James, you know, it's those guys are great. I think they
00:45:08make tremendous contributions to the game. I'm a huge fan of all of their work, in particular,
00:45:13Tom Tango over over at StatCast now. But they they can't measure that stuff. So they don't try and
00:45:19they don't. I've talked to Tom Tango about this. He said, it's not that we don't believe in
00:45:24clutch. It's not that we don't believe in clubhouse chemistry. We just can't measure
00:45:29that. We don't know how to measure that. We don't know what it means. It's very subjective
00:45:32at times. Oh, this guy's a great clubhouse guy. Oh, is he? Well, it's because you liked
00:45:37him, right? You guys like to listen to the same music sometimes. So it's very subjective.
00:45:41So I get it from their end. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. There's still something
00:45:46there that needs to be accounted for. And that's what I mean when that part of the equation
00:45:50needs a seat at the table. Yeah. And I think it's part of it. I think this
00:45:54is going to get me to a question here is I think it could be missed what it means when
00:45:59it's homegrown, like the fans love it. It re, you know, invigorates a whole organization,
00:46:07the people who drafted them, develop them, the kid who's down at double A and saying,
00:46:11see, he's getting a chance, et cetera. You know, like, I think that's part of it. And
00:46:14the question that leads me to is if I were making the, who am I most fascinated on all the
00:46:20Mets and all the Yankees this year, I'm most fascinated by Spencer Jones and what he's going
00:46:26to be. You could convince me the league is definitely going to catch up to it. It's going
00:46:30to become 42, 43% strikeout and it's untenable. Or you could say I'm watching 80 to 85% of
00:46:37judge,
00:46:37which is, you know, like, am I, is he Adam done with athleticism who could play defense
00:46:44and steal bases and he'll walk a lot, strike out a lot and hit a lot of homers Kyle Schwarber
00:46:48with
00:46:48that, but maybe there's even some batting average here. He's, he's hitting the ball.
00:46:53Yeah. I, you could tell me any range of possibilities going forward and I would buy it. What do you
00:47:00see?
00:47:02Well, spot on as usual, Joe, uh, Joel. Um, I think one thing I've noticed about Spencer Jones,
00:47:09obviously everybody's always talked about the swing and miss and the strikeout rates. And this
00:47:13is sustainable. This is a small sample size. Can we trust what we've seen over the last month or
00:47:18six weeks? What I've seen is a kid with high aptitude. And what I, what I base that on is
00:47:24not
00:47:24because he went to Vanderbilt, not because he's a bright kid, not because he's, he's, he's engaging and
00:47:29easy to talk to. It's because of his approach at home plate. He knows who he is. And actually
00:47:34Aaron Boone touched on this. He's, he understands who he is. So he is not going to let a first
00:47:40pitch
00:47:40go by anything that's hittable early in the count. He's uber aggressive, which is a perfect approach
00:47:46for somebody who's, who's got a chance to have a high strikeout rate. He also combines when he gets
00:47:51the two strikes or when he gets in the mid counts, he stops chasing those pitches that they all think
00:47:56he's going to swing and miss that those pitches in the dirt or those pitches way too high. He
00:48:02doesn't swing at those either. So that's where you get kind of the walk rate to go with that first
00:48:06pitch aggressive rate. And then he just hangs in there on left-handed pitching. They know they
00:48:11don't phase him. Now, maybe that's a small sample size as well, but his approach has been incredibly
00:48:17intelligent. Shows me he's a high aptitude kid and shows me, and I want to see more. I want to
00:48:23see more
00:48:23of this because he's earned it. This is supposed to be a meritocracy. Reward the kid for now. I don't
00:48:29know what next year brings or what a long-term career is going to look like, but right here,
00:48:33right now, I'm pretty, I'm pretty excited to see him come up to the plate every single time at this
00:48:38point. David, you've been great. And thank you for going over time. I think we're beyond our usual
00:48:4320 minutes. I did have one more question and I'm going to try to recruit you to my side on
00:48:47this one.
00:48:47I think I'm almost alone on this opinion. And perhaps because I'm almost a, you're a New Yorker,
00:48:53but I'm almost a lifetime, lifelong New Yorker who grew up with George Steinbrenner. You know,
00:49:00I know most teams do it. I appreciated that the Brewers did a very tasteful toast. I don't think
00:49:06the New York Yankees should be celebrating like they just won the World Series when they just got
00:49:11a wild card. I know it's not the end of the world either way, you know, and I seem to
00:49:17be on an
00:49:18island here. Am I crazy? I mean, I think they're overdoing it. They're $320 million payroll. They
00:49:26have several future Hall of Famers, multiple MVPs on that team. You know, I like the tasteful toast.
00:49:35Am I nuts?
00:49:37Well, no, not at all. I mean, you bring up a valid point because obviously the expanded
00:49:41playoffs nowadays has kind of diluted the value of the quest, so to speak, right? But at the same
00:49:48time, you know, the Yes Network needs content. Very good. We got to do something somewhere. So yes,
00:49:59we are in the entertainment business.
00:50:01Okay. And that's entertaining watching a bunch of 30-year-old guys throwing beer at
00:50:06each other. Okay. All right.
00:50:08That valid point. Touche.
00:50:09I don't know.
00:50:11I didn't have John on my bingo card being the worst curmudgeon on this podcast.
00:50:17Like, thanks, John, for winning that one.
00:50:19No problem.
00:50:20David, as a way to wrap it up, I think maybe all three of us would agree, like on paper,
00:50:27close to full health. I think the Yankees are the best team in the American League,
00:50:30but yet they're probably heading towards a very dangerous series against a lefty pitching heavy
00:50:36opponent in Boston. You know, you know the playoffs as well as anybody having played in it so often,
00:50:42how fickle two out of three could be. You have a bad game one, et cetera. What, what, what it
00:50:47looks
00:50:48like? I wonder as a way to end here, what do you think is important from here to whatever the
00:50:53finish line is for the Yankees to have the best, well, I can't, first time in 50 years can say
00:50:59this,
00:50:59a Nick-like ending to their season?
00:51:02Well, it, it feels like we kind of are in the midst of a pseudo platoon situation at a couple
00:51:09of
00:51:09positions, second and third base, depending on Jazz Chisholm and how he comes back. But with that being
00:51:14said, you have Anthony Volpe in the mix now. So Aaron Boone's got some decisions to make.
00:51:20Toughest lefty, you know, totally in Boston or whoever, a really tough lefty you're facing.
00:51:25Do you start Ryan McMahon at third base or do you start Jose Caballero? Do you start Jazz Chisholm
00:51:31at second base or do you start Anthony Volpe now? You know, those sorts of things are kind of,
00:51:37you know, on my mind right now. And I think they're interchangeable at this point. I think it's a,
00:51:42it's a Aaron Boone, we'll see type situation. It's not like they, okay, here's the Yankees nine.
00:51:48This is their lineup. This is what we're going with. I think one thing's for sure. They found
00:51:52their leadoff hitter. I think Ben Rice should be a leadoff hitter no matter what happens and no
00:51:56matter who's pitching, but maybe against a tough lefty, that changes as well. But how many times
00:52:02have we seen that lineup flip and flop all year long? They're in search mode. There was injury.
00:52:07Now here we are. It's post-season time. What do we do against tough left-handed starting
00:52:12pitching? Do you want Caballero in his speed to manufacture some runs at third base? His defense
00:52:17is fine at third base. Maybe not quite Ryan McMahon level. Maybe not, you know, if Max Freed's
00:52:23pitching, so maybe you want Ryan McMahon at third. But these are questions, you know, to answer your
00:52:28question. My questions are, hmm, what's the best lineup against left-handed pitching that the Yankees
00:52:34have right now? And they do have options. Yeah. And you didn't even mention Ahmad Rosario,
00:52:38who's been the third baseman in most of those situations, but is not a good defender. And I
00:52:42would not, I play defense all the time in the post-season if I can. You haven't mentioned
00:52:47Trent Grisham could come back. You mentioned how you like Spencer Jones. And we mentioned earlier,
00:52:52Weathers and Schmidt could suddenly be getting the ball in spots we were used to seeing other people
00:52:59get that, get it. So, so for a team that's no worse than the second best team in the American
00:53:04league, they have a lot to do in the next week plus till the post-season. And then some interesting
00:53:09stuff for the post-season. I'm sure anybody who watches David Cohn on, yes, will get it all framed
00:53:15perfectly and well and insightful because that's what you do, David. You did it as a player for us
00:53:20when we were standing in front of your locker. You still do it now. And we always appreciate you
00:53:24joining us on the show. Appreciate you guys. Anytime. Thanks so much. Thanks, David.
00:53:35John and I, of course, thank our friend David Cohn for joining us on the show. John, hit or error?
00:53:41We touched on this earlier. I'm going to give a small hit, not as usual type to Aaron Judge for
00:53:49honestly saying that the MVP should be a position player. I get it. In certain years, if the starting
00:53:56pitcher is throwing 250, 300 innings in the old days, you know, and had an incredible all-time
00:54:03season and there is no position player or hitter to give MVP, I get it. You know, I would consider
00:54:12a pitcher, but they do have their own award. So I'm going to agree with Judge on that and say
00:54:17that the MVP should be a hitter generally. And this year, I think it should be Jordana Alvarez.
00:54:24You know, he is a DH. So, you know, there is an argument for Schlittler, but
00:54:30Jordan is not going to win the Triple Crown, I don't think. But he's a little behind in a couple
00:54:36of the categories now, behind Pete Alonso in one of them. But I'm going to give a little hit to
00:54:41Judge
00:54:42because I think that was honest. You know, normally people just go with whatever helps their teammate
00:54:46and their team and whatever. And he gave his honest opinion. And he is correct.
00:54:52Jordan is the MVP this year. Schlittler, the Cy Young.
00:54:55You know, it's interesting. There's four former MVPs in the Yankee clubhouse. Stanton wasn't around
00:55:01that day, but I did go up to Bellinger and Goldschmidt and ask. And they did the tactful
00:55:07thing and said, hey, there's precedent for it. And, you know, but I agree with Judge.
00:55:11We don't like tactful on this show. No, no, no, no. And by the way, whether it's tactful
00:55:17or not, I agree with Judge. Like, I think that you have to have, you know, Dwight Gooden
00:55:22in 1985. If you're going to elevate a pitcher to somebody who's on the field every day to
00:55:28me, you could take that, oh, there's similar wars. I'm like, yeah. Like, why don't we ask
00:55:3230 managers? Like, would they like an eight-war hitter or an eight-war pitcher? Well, I think
00:55:38that's part of this. John, you mentioned name. I'm going to do – I'm not sure if there's
00:55:42a hit for the positive side of it or an error for the negative side. Did you notice the
00:55:46two guys who are almost certainly going to win MVP, you could argue, are part of, like,
00:55:50the best or worst trades that teams have made? You know, obviously, Mets fans are tired
00:55:56of hearing about Pete Crow Armstrong for Javier Baez. It was, by the way, early in Andrew
00:56:03Friedman's tenure as head of baseball operations for the Dodgers, he traded Jordan Alvarez for
00:56:08Josh Fields. You know, like, those are the MVPs. By the way, Junior Caminero was traded
00:56:14for Tobias Myers. He was probably finishing second for AL MVP. Fernando Tatis Jr. for James Shields,
00:56:20someplace in the top 10 in the NL. I went through – anyway, if you're interested,
00:56:24newyorkpost.com, I wrote about all the terrible trades that are affecting – or great trades.
00:56:30Like, you're right. I always do go negative. Maybe these were great trades that are affecting
00:56:36playoff races and awards this year. You know, like, part of it is – I don't know if you
00:56:42recognize this. We're doing reliever of the year for the first time this year. And I think you can
00:56:47make a case. Since the trade deadline last year, like, there were five relievers who – among – it was
00:56:53five relievers. I think they might be the five best relievers who were traded. I mean, pitch this
00:56:57year, you know, let's see if I can remember. It's Varlin, Bednar, Miller, Baker, and who am I missing?
00:57:06Duran. And they're all going to be – get votes for this. By the way, Mason Montgomery was part of
00:57:13a
00:57:13terrible Tampa trade in the offseason. He's going to get some votes, I would think, someplace along the way.
00:57:17But anyway, I wrote about it. It just – I found it interesting that the two MVPs might be part
00:57:23of
00:57:23the two – what don't I say it – best trades that have been made in about the –
00:57:26Very nice. I like the fact that you're being positive there. Good for the Cubs and the Astros
00:57:32for making those trades. And you know what? I like to see teams take chances. I will – I'll say
00:57:38this.
00:57:38The Mets, in a way, did better because they – Baez did have a good half year. Josh Fields didn't
00:57:44do
00:57:44very much at all for the Dodgers. No, he actually pitched well for the Dodgers.
00:57:48But you know, the thing is, in the – they might have won the World Series in 2017, but he
00:57:56came
00:57:56into game two with a chance for them to go up 2-0 and gave up those homes to Correa
00:58:00and Altuve,
00:58:01and it helped cost them the game. Ironically, against Houston.
00:58:05Right. But those are two of the most lopsided – you are correct. The two most lopsided trades
00:58:10in history, yeah. I mean, the loss of Alonzo, which we've gone over and I've gone over a million
00:58:15and million times, is not as detrimental as the trade of Pete Crow Armstrong, unfortunately for
00:58:22the Mets because, I mean, he's now signed up, locked up for a decade or something like that
00:58:26in a long time with the Cubs, and he is clearly the MVP. It's not even a debate anymore. That's
00:58:33obvious, unanimous. You can't even really name anyone who could even possibly get a first-place vote.
00:58:40He's been that good. It's really stunning. I mean, I saw him in a futures game after that trade,
00:58:47and I'm like, oh, this is the guy people – and he's such a – he was so – such
00:58:51a little guy. I don't
00:58:52know. Has he grown any since then? I don't know. I didn't – you can't judge by that. You can't
00:58:56judge a book by its cover, I guess. They'll use that cliche. The guy is an incredible talent. I mean,
00:59:02he – I saw a stat – I don't know if it was Sarah Langs or one of the great
00:59:06stat people who said it.
00:59:09Katie Sharp, maybe. He's going to be the first guy to be number one in offensive war and also in
00:59:16defensive war in baseball. And again, you know, I'm one of the great detractors of war. I think it's
00:59:24not very precise. You know, I mean, look at the National League war. Christopher Sanchez is 30%
00:59:30better than anybody else on war, but we kind of know Mizorowski and Sale are ahead of him at this
00:59:36point. So, it is not perfect, but he – Pete Armstrong is obviously the best offensive player
00:59:42in the National League this year. And, you know, he might be the best defensive player as well.
00:59:47You know, John, just to throw something in on war, I keep a little database for why it doesn't really
00:59:52matter. So – and I use Fangraph's war. And I went back and looked at some stuff from 2024 and
00:59:5825.
00:59:58Did you know that the numbers change from after the offseason? In other words, like,
01:00:02they keep recalibrating. So, like, you might have finished, for example, in 2024 with 2.2
01:00:09Fangraph's war. It could be 2.5 today. Like, it is in some cases. Like, I've gone back – because
01:00:15I was
01:00:15going back to do some research on something I was thinking of, right. And I can't – so, like,
01:00:19all I know is whatever your on-base percentage or batting average or slugging percentage is at the end
01:00:23of the year. It's that two years later also. Right, right.
01:00:26Like, besides the fact that Fangraph's and baseball reference have different wars.
01:00:29Well, that tells you right there. Yeah, like, how imprecise it is. Yeah. And I'm sure
01:00:35Mets fans love the idea. And, of course, everything would have been different in the sliding door ways.
01:00:39Maybe they win some games. But PCA, Benj, and Ewing running around that outfield would really be
01:00:45something. Our star, Tommy Hogan, our producer, thank you so much as always. Tommy, Apple, Spotify,
01:00:51wherever you listen to a podcast. Please download, rate, review, subscribe, etc. The New York Post
01:00:59sports YouTube page. Give us a view. And, hey, one more regular season week of this. Then we're into
01:01:04the postseason. Then we're into the lockout. And we'll be doing it all on the show with Joel Sherman
01:01:10and John Heyman.
01:01:11the new one.
01:01:13the new one.
01:01:14the new one.
01:01:16the new one.
01:01:16all right.
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