00:05And joining me now to analyze the outcomes of the BRICS summit and the bilateral with China
00:11is Salman Khurshid, former external affairs minister, former minister for law and justice
00:16and minority affairs. He's dealt with the very tricky India-China issue directly as the external
00:24affairs minister of India during the UPA government. Sir, welcome. A consensus, despite contentious
00:31issues, warring sides on the same table in New Delhi. We saw a meeting between Iran and the UAE.
00:38Your reading of this unanimous adoption of the New Delhi declaration.
00:47Look, I think that this is a part of a continuum that has gone in the right direction. There
00:57are a lot of issues that have been for which ground has been laid. But I think the important
01:05thing is that the ground that is laid in this declaration and whatever has preceded this
01:12declaration in the previous BRIC meetings, how that's taken forward in effect wherever
01:20there is some difficult area. And you know the difficult area, as you're aware, are West
01:25Asia, Iran, Iran, Israel, United States of America, and in Europe, etc. Now, how we take it forward
01:33and who takes it forward? What kind of role India will conceive for itself beyond BRICs? What
01:40can happen beyond BRICs is a thing.
01:43It indeed is. But the fact that they were able to come on common ground, sir, the explicit
01:50condemnation, for example, of the Pehelgaam terror attack and of cross-border terrorism.
01:55Does this, in your view, represent forward movement and consensus on a very critical issue of terror,
02:05so? Absolutely. But it's been happening. This is not something a rabbit out of a hat suddenly.
02:11This is something that's been happening over a period, over different BRIC sessions, etc.
02:18And we've gone in the right direction. But you know, there will be disappointments. There
02:22are disappointments in India about not specifically mentioning the country from where cross-border
02:28terrorism is inflicted on India. There would be disappointments. But you know, when you're
02:33in a… when you're in a multilateral situation, everything is not always possible. But what
02:39is possible is put down. And if that points to something more possibly in the future, then
02:45that can be said to be satisfactory or at least a good beginning.
02:49Sir, you know, you rightly mentioned that Pakistan wasn't mentioned by name. But when there is
02:55a reference to, for example, cross-border terrorism or UN-designated global terrorists, would
03:01that shame Pakistan? Or will Pakistan, you know, it's gone so far down that nothing actually
03:08shames it into reforming itself?
03:14Well, I… I think it's sort of expecting too much from… from Pakistan. Nothing in the
03:20history of the past 20, 30, 40 years indicates that… that shaming is… naming and shaming
03:27is anything that has an impact on them. It's been much worse than that. And then the kind
03:33of support that they have got periodically from important countries, whether it's explicit or
03:39implicit, is something that we still need to deal with. I think that just the… just
03:44the declaration may not do enough. We may have to go beyond the declaration. We may have
03:50to go beyond BRICS to the larger diplomatic… diplomatic outreach that we have to continue.
03:57So there are many, many possibilities, openings, pointing to right directions. But we need to
04:03take that right direction and move forward.
04:07Interesting you should mention that. And I'll come to China and the bilateral in just a
04:11moment. For a moment, I want to continue talking about BRICS outcomes. Russian President Vladimir
04:16Amir Putin spoke of facing sanctions. Iranian President Masood Pizishkian spoke of sanctions. And
04:23these are not UN sanctions. Sir, has India been able to walk that fine line, stand strongly
04:29with BRICS partner nations despite deep engagement with US and Europe? And what more should India
04:36do or can India do to ensure we also remain on the right trajectory and yet be with our BRICS
04:45partners? Well, very clearly, very, very clearly, there is much that is promising as far as the
04:52declaration is concerned, which we haven't seen, which we haven't seen before. We haven't seen,
04:58we haven't seen effective intervention by many countries. We certainly haven't seen effective
05:04intervention by India. But when India becomes party to this declaration, where would it go with
05:10intervention beyond this declaration is a big question. It's not easy. Let's be very clear. It's
05:15not easy. We can't, we can't just give up our relationship with one set of countries and say
05:22that we will deal only with another set of countries. That's not what India's position has ever been.
05:27And I believe, therefore, whatever was, and interestingly, that Bangdung has been mentioned
05:33after a long time in the declaration. Now, non-alignment has not been mentioned, but Bangdung
05:39is mentioned, which is where non-alignment began. So are we really looking at non-alignment
05:46in another format or non-alignment in a redesign, reformatted form, etc., is a big question. But
05:59you have to deal with contradictory aspirations as far as friendly countries or countries that we
06:06have relationships with are concerned. I think this will be the big challenge for us, as indeed it may
06:12be for other countries as well. So is multi-alignment the new non-alignment or in fact going from
06:18multilateralism to plurilateralism… I'm not. You don't… You don't… Go on, sir.
06:26No, no, I… I'm not quite… I'm not quite sure that multi… multi-alignment makes much sense. It certainly
06:32does make sense to me. Non-alignment gives you the freedom to deal with anybody that you believe
06:38you should deal with or you'll feel… you'll feel comfortable to deal with at a given time.
06:42If you're aligned already, then where is the freedom? Where is the freedom to deal or not
06:48to deal with somebody who is a comforting partner at that particular time? So I believe
06:54that there has to be… there has to be a redefining of what non-alignment means, non… what multi-alignment
07:02means. Now, multilateralism is fine and I think that multilateralism has been strengthened and
07:09purportedly strengthened and I think we should welcome it, but we should go along the path of
07:13multilateralism, which means that all the institutions of multilateralism have to be strengthened and
07:20they can be strengthened only with the clarion call that has come, which is that the voice of the global
07:26south must be reflected everywhere from the United Nations to IMF, World Bank and every other multilateral
07:34organization. And they're speaking of reforms, but let me for a moment now come specifically to
07:40India-China and that's a subject you've dealt with very closely. Your reading of the India-China
07:47bilateral in Delhi after a gap of seven years in India and China talking of drawing from each other's
07:53strengths or helping each other's succeed. We are hearing sweet words, but what sweet action would
07:59you want to see on ground after these sweet words exchanged in Delhi?
08:06Well, it's very clear. First of all, it's important, it's important for us to know in the opposition of
08:12this country, it's important for us to know that where was, where did we start and where have we reached
08:18after the conversations that have happened? Not just here, conversation at SCO, conversation between
08:24the, between the, the, uh, the, uh, national security advisor and foreign minister of China.
08:32Where have we reached? And now finally, with the bilaterals that we've had here, where have we reached
08:39and how much further do we have to go? Some broad parameters, some broad expressions of, of outreach
08:46between the two of us have been mentioned, but I think we have to be more specific. And I think
08:53where there needs to be a greater sharing of information and knowledge between the government
08:58and the opposition so that the opposition can in a well-informed way support the government if it's so
09:03needed. That's a very good point you make, sir. Uh, you know, statements like partners, not rivals,
09:11win-win cooperation, all of that sounds wonderful. But sir, you've dealt with that situation on ground
09:17when you were external affairs minister, incidents like Chumar or subsequently Depsang or Dolom or Galwan
09:24or Thaksing recently. So partners don't do this. How do we verify, you know, it's trust, but verify. How do
09:32you
09:33verify that there, it is a new dawn or if, if there is the recession?
09:40Precisely, precisely, precisely, this is just the point that I, I continue to make that we need to
09:45have a conversation, which is a candid conversation, not to apportion blame, but at least to ask,
09:52why do you think these things happen? Why do these things happen? And what is the way to prevent
09:58these things from happening? I think specifically, specifically enough candor has not been shown
10:05as far as our conversation with China is concerned. I think there's too much formalism, there is too much
10:11official, official ease, et cetera. I think something more needs to be done, but what more needs to be
10:17done will only be clear once we know what has been done. And therefore, I think it's important that the
10:24government takes us into confidence, meaning the government takes the opposition into confidence,
10:30whichever part of the opposition it wants to take into confidence, and then see how the conversation
10:36can go any further. If you can't take a conversation with the opposition further, how will you take a
10:42conversation with China any further? Interesting point to make there, sir. And you know, you've heard
10:48both Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the Chinese President Xi Jinping, there is talk that differences
10:52should not become disputes. So someone who's handled this situation on ground, and I remember I
10:58interviewed you when you were the External Affairs Minister in 2013, you'd recall, you'd call this
11:05relationship, you know, acne on an otherwise very beautiful face when those soldiers had come in.
11:11Has anything changed between India and China? Has it only worsened? And this conversation,
11:19do you see some kind of a reset?
11:25Well, I think that it's worsened. Over a period, it's worsened. It's become very depressingly
11:36very bad. But there are moments in which we are told repeatedly that we've now put it back on track.
11:43We've now put it back on track. I don't think that that's enough. So generalities will not do.
11:49I think we need to do something very, very specific. Now, who does it and how it's taken forward is
11:54a
11:54matter for the government to take a call on. If they want any suggestions from us, we would be more
11:59than
11:59willing to give suggestions. But you know, this point about blaming the Congress for being pro-China,
12:05and then Congress saying that you are giving in to China is not the best way to prepare,
12:11not the best way to prepare to have a meaningful conversation with China. You have to trust,
12:16we have to trust each other first. And the trust will come only with sharing of information.
12:22Thereafter, we begin to verify and trust, as you've said, trust, but verify and verify,
12:28and then trust. Only then we can begin that journey with China.
12:33And, you know, verify and trust and any concrete steps, you know, whether it's greater access to
12:39Chinese markets for Indian goods, that's again a subject you've dealt with personally, sir,
12:44or peace and tranquility at the borders. So, Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he was speaking
12:50about BRICS as a grouping, he said the world now expects concrete results from the grouping,
12:55and not just ideas and commitments. So, what are those concrete results that you want to see on
13:03ground?
13:07Well, I think the concrete results are not entirely in the hands of China. Something China can do as
13:14far as the trade deficit is concerned. But there must be something that we can do, and we must do.
13:18We can't just leave it all at their door and say that, now, they have to put their house in
13:24order so
13:25that we can ensure that there is no trade deficit. It must be something that we need to do. So,
13:30let's look at ourselves as well, and then work out on a plan, step by step, how do we get
13:36rid of
13:36trade deficit? That's very, very critical. Now, of course, over the period when things have worsened,
13:42things have gone bad, et cetera, we've always kept open channels of people-to-people contact,
13:49and that's never been a major problem. There's some minor discrepancies, et cetera, which can be
13:54handled and which are now, I believe, being handled again, with flights coming in and visas, et cetera,
14:00being released more easily. But I think, basically, there are some things that we need to do at home,
14:08and there are some things that we need to do with China, and there is something that China needs
14:13to do at its own end. Mr. Salman Khursheed for joining me here on this India First special broadcast.
14:20Many thanks.
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