00:00And joining me now on India First is Ambassador Ashok Khan,
00:03former Indian ambassador to China.
00:06Ambassador, welcome.
00:08Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Xi
00:11have described each other as partners and not rivals,
00:15or words to that effect,
00:16and they're committed to a fair, reasonable,
00:18and mutually acceptable resolution of the boundary question.
00:22Sir, in your view, given the past track record,
00:27do you see this as a genuine reset in India-China ties,
00:33a new beginning?
00:34Or is this, you know, just taking baby steps,
00:37trying to restore the relationship?
00:41Gaurav, I will not characterize it as a new dawn in India-China relations
00:46or a reset of relations.
00:49In fact, you only need to look at the readouts
00:53issued by Minister External Affairs of India
00:56and Minister of Foreign Affairs of China yesterday.
00:59And there's a big gap.
01:01In fact, the formulation was just referred to
01:03partner, not partners, not rivals.
01:06Chinese readout has that formulation.
01:09Indian readout doesn't have that formulation.
01:11And there are some other very substantive issues
01:14on where two readouts are not convergent.
01:19For instance, if you look at our readout,
01:23the whole paragraph is devoted to boundary issue,
01:26especially need to maintain peace and tranquility in border areas.
01:30Whereas the Chinese readout says that,
01:32you know, we must advance bilateral ties and boundary issue
01:37on parallel tracks that reinforce each other.
01:41That means, you know, they are parallel tracks.
01:45They are not really intersecting tracks.
01:47Whereas our position is that it's only when borders are normal,
01:53we can look at overall relations being normal.
01:56It's a very, very substantive difference.
01:58True.
02:00Yes, so let's take this step by step.
02:03Prime Minister Narendra Modi stressed on peace and tranquility
02:05at the borders.
02:06And that remains the essential basis of this relationship
02:09to move forward.
02:11When you see the Chinese, you know, readout,
02:14that boundary issue moves in parallel with improving ties.
02:18Now, what does this actually mean on ground?
02:22What are key benchmarks that we should look at
02:25that indicate that China also has a genuine desire
02:29to move forward, improving ties with India,
02:32ensuring there's peace and tranquility at the borders?
02:35It has been a substantive difference between two sides.
02:39We maintain that peace and tranquility
02:43is an essential prerequisite for continued normalization.
02:47Chinese don't accept that position.
02:49If you look at situation on the ground,
02:52unfortunately, what we are witnessing,
02:55recently we had reports on Arshir Pradesh
02:58about transgressions by China, you know,
03:01in Asafila area, possibly even in Longzhou area.
03:05You have a situation where disengagement
03:08was more or less agreed upon way back in October 2024.
03:14And since then, there has been absolutely no progress
03:18on de-escalation of troops.
03:20So there is still, you know,
03:22continued deployment of troops from both sides
03:24at a very high level,
03:27which is, you know, far from normal.
03:30The issue of de-induction, you know,
03:32doesn't figure at all at this point in time.
03:35So what I'm trying to say that,
03:36if you look at, you know, situation on ground,
03:41I think our concerns are definitely, you know,
03:46rooted in a factual position
03:50and our apprehensions are correct.
03:53Oh, absolutely.
03:54Because, you know, especially when it comes to China
03:57and who knows that better than you,
03:59it's not sweet words,
04:00but action on ground
04:01that must verify the next step in the relationship.
04:05And the two sides,
04:06while they may talk of agreeing
04:08to address the structural trade imbalance,
04:11for example,
04:12or supply chain issues and market access,
04:14the trade deficit stands at an alarming $112 billion.
04:19So do you see any conversation
04:22that indicates there could be, you know,
04:25formal movement or some forward movement
04:28that India gets greater access to Chinese markets?
04:32Our experience so far has not been very encouraging.
04:36We have been raising issue
04:38of getting better access to Chinese market,
04:40even products and services
04:42where we are globally competitive,
04:44for instance, pharmaceuticals or IT services,
04:47where we have been unable to make a dent
04:49into Chinese market.
04:51And trade deficit keeps growing.
04:52Last year, according to Chinese trade statistics,
04:55they had a surplus of $116 billion.
04:57And this year,
04:58they're likely to have been larger trade surplus.
05:01And it's not just a question of trade surplus, Gaurav.
05:05When we talk about economic engagement,
05:07we seem to be moving in opposite directions.
05:11We took steps on 10th March
05:13to liberalize the regime for investments from China
05:16to a certain extent
05:17through, you know,
05:18press note 2 of 2026,
05:20whereas in last three months,
05:23China has issued at least three decrees,
05:26tightening the regime
05:28for outward defense,
05:30outward, you know,
05:31direct investment
05:32for technology transfer,
05:34for moving movement
05:35of Chinese engineers
05:37and technical personnel outside.
05:40And these are specifically in areas
05:42where we are looking at, you know,
05:44Chinese investment
05:45to build up our capabilities,
05:47you know,
05:48electronics,
05:49renewables,
05:49EVs.
05:50They are, in fact,
05:51tightening the regime,
05:52especially, you know,
05:54Decree 837 of 1st July 2026.
05:58It's rather disturbing.
05:59It indeed is.
06:00The point is that
06:00we need to discuss the issue up front
06:03with the Chinese side
06:04in a friendly manner.
06:06But these issues cannot be brushed aside
06:08just by, you know,
06:10more talk that we must have
06:11closer economic engagement.
06:13Yes,
06:13closer economic engagement,
06:14but in what terms?
06:16Important thing is your terms of engagement.
06:18Absolutely.
06:19Because when Chinese president
06:20says that China approaches India
06:23from a strategic
06:24and long-term perspective,
06:26are these just words,
06:29you know,
06:30sweet words
06:31that we get from China?
06:32The irritants,
06:34they remain,
06:35these very serious issues,
06:37they still remain.
06:39What about this conversation,
06:41improve relations
06:42through mutual respect?
06:43If there is mutual respect,
06:45shouldn't we get access,
06:46for example,
06:46to the monopoly that China has
06:48either on solar
06:49or wind energy
06:52or on batteries
06:53or the tunnel-boring machines
06:56that we so, you know,
06:57keenly require?
06:59No, you're absolutely right.
07:01You know,
07:01this language of
07:03taking a strategic
07:04and long-term view
07:05of India-China relations,
07:07we have been talking about it
07:09for more than two decades now.
07:12I was part of those conversations
07:14for quite some time, in fact.
07:18Unfortunately, you know,
07:19those mantras
07:21have to mean something
07:22in real practice.
07:24Yes.
07:25When it comes to, you know,
07:27action on part of two countries,
07:29we don't quite see that.
07:31You know,
07:32you just have referred to
07:33one aspect,
07:35which is economic engagement.
07:37I'll refer to at least
07:39three other aspects
07:40very quickly.
07:42Yes.
07:42If we talk about,
07:44want to talk about,
07:45you know,
07:46reset in relations,
07:47a new dawn in relationship,
07:48it's not possible
07:51unless certain structural
07:53challenges are addressed.
07:56For example?
07:57For example,
07:58you know,
07:59last year,
08:00during Operation Sindhu,
08:02in May 2025,
08:03we witnessed a battlefield
08:05collusion between China
08:07and Pakistan,
08:08which was unprecedented
08:09and which influenced
08:11the battlefield situation
08:13in a very significant manner
08:15to a disadvantage.
08:16Point two, sir?
08:17Yeah.
08:17Point two,
08:18our prime minister
08:20had a meeting
08:21with President Xi
08:22at Kazan
08:22in October 2024,
08:24a good meeting
08:25which marked
08:26no sort of resumption
08:27or process of
08:28rebuilding of relations.
08:30Within two months,
08:31Chinese announced
08:32the largest hydropower projects
08:34at Medoc County
08:36in Tibet
08:36within 50 km
08:38Arnachar Pradesh
08:39and work started
08:40in July last year.
08:41No prior information
08:43to us,
08:44let alone
08:44any consultation
08:45with us.
08:46And now,
08:47concerns have
08:48increased further
08:49after what happened
08:51in Nepal
08:51on 26th of August.
08:54And point three?
08:55No, this project,
08:56I'll just add one point.
08:58This project
08:58is being constructed
09:01in Suspic Zone 5,
09:04an area
09:05which has witnessed
09:06all the worst earthquakes
09:08in that region.
09:10And it's really a case
09:11of engineering hubris
09:12to take up a project
09:14of this magnitude there.
09:16Point three,
09:17I would like to say,
09:18you know,
09:18there's a broader issue.
09:20You referred to
09:21mutual respect.
09:23Mutual respect
09:24also includes,
09:25you know,
09:26acknowledging India
09:27as a peer nation,
09:29as a peer civilization.
09:30But Chinese,
09:31in fact,
09:32they tell us,
09:32in fact,
09:33to discussions
09:33quite bluntly
09:34that what's the
09:36multipolarity
09:37in Asia
09:37we are talking about.
09:38But in Asia,
09:39there's only one
09:40resident major part
09:41that is in China.
09:43And India,
09:44you know,
09:45China's GDP
09:46is more than
09:47five times larger
09:47than India.
09:48So while you're
09:49talking about
09:50multipolarity,
09:51I don't think
09:51India is going
09:52to accept
09:53that kind of
09:54But do we see
09:54a change there
09:57during China's
09:58G20,
09:58China's BRICS
09:59presidency
10:00when they're
10:01trying to sound
10:02conciliatory
10:02and is this
10:03a window of
10:04opportunity
10:04for India
10:05to harness
10:06moving forward?
10:08And that's the story
10:08we will continue
10:09to track.
10:10Ambassador
10:10for joining me
10:12here on this
10:13India Today
10:13special broadcast.
10:15Many thanks.
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