- 7 weeks ago
Does fatherhood actually rewire the male brain? In this inaugural episode of Daddies, hosts Rob Stott and Marcus Hurley unpack the fascinating science of "Dad Brain". From dropping testosterone levels to oxytocin spikes, and test the research against their own real-world parenting experiences.
Rob shares his journey of having his daughter Billie via international surrogacy in Canada during COVID lockdowns, taking 18 months off work as a primary carer, and the reality of toddler road rage. Meanw
Rob shares his journey of having his daughter Billie via international surrogacy in Canada during COVID lockdowns, taking 18 months off work as a primary carer, and the reality of toddler road rage. Meanw
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00:00And what I said to this gentleman was, what the f*** are you doing?
00:03And then immediately from the back seat, I heard a little voice go,
00:06what the f*** are you doing?
00:12Hi, and welcome to Daddy's, a podcast about life on the other side of fatherhood.
00:16I'm Rob, and I'm the editor-in-chief here at Man of Many,
00:18and I am the dad to a three-and-a-half, almost four-year-old daughter
00:22named Billy, born by a surrogacy, and this is Marcus.
00:26Hey, Rob. I'm Marcus, also from Man of Many.
00:30I am the father to a four-and-a-half, nearly five, kind of four-and-three-quarters,
00:35got to get it right or she'll get angry, daughter named Bino.
00:38We'll call her Bino.
00:41And Daddy's, to me, is all about stuff that men might feel or think,
00:48but not necessarily share or communicate.
00:52And I think this is an opportunity to kind of have a chat, man to man,
00:56dad to dad, daddy to daddy.
00:59And, yeah, just kind of explore those kind of topics that maybe people don't talk about
01:04or maybe they think about and they're like, what does that actually mean?
01:08And I think we can offer a little bit of our own lived experience to see if it resonates.
01:14All right.
01:15Let's jump in.
01:16Let's jump in.
01:16Let's jump in.
01:17So, this next segment, too much information.
01:20I'm looking forward to finding out more about you.
01:22But, look, I want to be a better father.
01:25Like, I want to learn every day about how I can be a better father.
01:29And I think by you oversharing about your fatherhood experience,
01:33I think I'm going to learn something.
01:35So, please, overshare about a parenting experience for me.
01:38Make me a better dad.
01:39That's beautiful, Marcus.
01:40Uh, sure.
01:42Look, I am, you know, I'm not an angry person, as I think you know,
01:46having worked with me for a little while now.
01:48Um, but the one place where I can be quite angry is behind the wheel of the car.
01:54And this week I was driving through traffic, King Street in Newtown on a Saturday.
02:01Well, that's always a nightmare.
02:02If you know, you know.
02:03Uh, and there was an idiot in front of me.
02:08And I said, fuck, in front of Billy.
02:12In fact, my exact.
02:14I love the idea of we're driving around in a metal box and there's other people driving around in metal
02:20boxes and they're faceless.
02:22But we feel the need to communicate with them quite aggressively.
02:26And I did.
02:26And what I said to this gentleman was, what the fuck are you doing?
02:29And then immediately from the back seat, I heard a little voice go, what the fuck are you doing?
02:38And then I laughed and my husband laughed.
02:41And so from that, she got the reaction that it was very funny for her to say this thing.
02:45So then she did not stop saying it for the rest of the day.
02:48And then we had to try to discourage her from using that word.
02:55Cause if she goes to daycare and says fuck to the other kids, there's going to be, you know, I'm
03:00going to get a phone call.
03:01What would happen if she went to daycare and said fuck, like what can they do as opposed to the
03:06other parents going, oh, watch out for that kid.
03:08I don't want my kids hanging out with her.
03:10I would have got a lovely phone call from one of her educators, probably Miss who I love, who would
03:17have just said, hey, Billy's been using some language that we don't like to use in class.
03:22But it's a hard thing to try to, A, not laugh when your child is swearing, cause it is very
03:29funny.
03:30And then you try to like, you want to discourage her from using that language.
03:34But the more you, the harder you discourage, the more it seems like cool and forbidden.
03:38And the more she thinks it's funny to use it.
03:40And it's an interesting balance between, she's obviously got a reaction.
03:44So my daughter, she's starting to act and say things to get a reaction.
03:50Um, and I can see this little performer in her.
03:53And as soon as she says or does something, she kind of, her eyes shoot to me for a reaction.
03:59And there's been times where she's made me laugh more than anyone else has made me laugh.
04:04And I think she's locked in on that going, I want to do that again.
04:08And so I feel like I have to kind of put on a laugh whenever she's kind of looking for
04:12that, um, validation.
04:14And so it would be a difficult conversation for you and your daughter to go, did you acknowledge when you
04:21said fuck in the car, that was really funny.
04:24But we don't like, how do you kind of traverse?
04:28We, we just kind of left it.
04:31Yeah.
04:31We're hoping for the best.
04:32And I haven't had the phone call from daycare so far.
04:34So, you know, so far, so good.
04:36Well, that's good.
04:36That's good.
04:37That's worked out.
04:37All right.
04:38Um, what about you, Marcus?
04:39How was your week in parenting?
04:40My week in parenting?
04:42Well, I mentioned I'm a co-parent and I'm going to quickly kind of describe to you the kind of
04:4850, 50 split that, um, uh, myself and her mother have.
04:53I've got her every Tuesday, Wednesday, but then every second Wednesday, it's Wednesday through to Monday.
04:59So over, that's the best I can describe it.
05:01But over a fortnight, I have her, um, seven nights.
05:05We both have her seven nights.
05:06And so I've just come off a week of being a single man as opposed to a single dad.
05:12Um, but it kind of brings me onto my overshare, I suppose.
05:16Um, so my daughter's mother has since been remarried.
05:21Um, and I remember I was on a camping trip with my daughter and I got a phone call from
05:26her mom, uh, like FaceTime and picked it up and she was like, oh, can you put, um, Bino on
05:33the phone?
05:33Um, Bino, um, I think she was Bino before she was born because you know how like you measure babies
05:41and like the beans and lemons and melons, Bino, and it stuck.
05:45Um, but, and so I put Bino on the phone and her mom held up her hand and had the
05:52engagement ring on it.
05:53Um, and like you, you see that and there's this bit of kind of, oh, wasn't expecting to see that
05:59this morning, but no kind of emotional kind of, uh, or like it didn't bring up anything for me.
06:07And I was there with a mate and after the phone call, he said, how does that make you feel?
06:12And I hadn't felt anything, but him asking me made me go, oh, am I supposed to be feeling something
06:19here?
06:20Um, and so my mind went, okay, there's comparison there.
06:23She's found love after our divorce and all this kind of thing.
06:27What does that mean?
06:28And I think the one thing that I landed on was the fact that there will now be another man
06:33in my daughter's life.
06:35Um, and that could bring on, okay, what if she loves him more than me or he's cooler or, but
06:45it's kind of over time.
06:48Like when I first met him, we sat down in my then living room, sat down next to each other.
06:55And the first thing I said to him was, I'm sure I said, hello.
06:58Um, second thing I said to him was, can we just acknowledge how weird this is?
07:03Because I'd like, I grew up in a traditional family, mom, dad, two sisters.
07:07That was it had friends who were getting, uh, parents were getting divorced around me.
07:12And I was like, I wonder what that's like.
07:13And it sounded cool because they go to their dad's house and they throw parties and get presents.
07:17Um, so I didn't know what I was getting myself into, but as time has gone on, I've been able
07:26to realize like how special,
07:27that my daughter now has two strong men in her life.
07:32I'll show you my daughter.
07:33Well, exactly.
07:34That's kind of reassuring.
07:35And I also realized I will always be her dad.
07:39Yeah.
07:41And which was like, yeah, biologically, it's like, I, I own you, I made you, but also like
07:49that connection, I don't think you can kind of discount.
07:53Um, and so now it's just settled at this kind of brilliant, I'm a blended family.
07:59And it's kind of, it's, it's kind of lovely.
08:02What a beautiful world we live in.
08:03Isn't it beautiful?
08:04Isn't fatherhood just the best?
08:05It really is.
08:06Yeah.
08:07Let's talk about change.
08:08Let's talk about change.
08:12I think we should talk about change.
08:14Why aren't you talking about change?
08:16Let's talk about change.
08:17Let's talk about change.
08:18A lot changes when you become a dad.
08:19Yeah.
08:20Yeah.
08:21Uh, there was an article in the BBC recently.
08:24It was called dad brain, how fatherhood rewires the male brain.
08:28And it had some really interesting findings.
08:30It was, it, it was interesting.
08:31Like what I found interesting was, okay, it's all chemical changes, right?
08:35Cause you can talk about the physical or the practical changes that happen when you're
08:39a dad, like, oh, there's another human being in our house.
08:42Um, or why are there so many nappies and why do we need a nappy bin?
08:46And why is there a little bath where we have to bathe this little human?
08:50What fluid is this on me?
08:52Yes, exactly.
08:53And where did it come from?
08:53Although I'm not sure if this ever happened to you.
08:56Did your daughter ever like, we on you while you were changing?
08:59Oh yeah, absolutely.
09:00Never happened to me.
09:00Oh.
09:01I never had to do that.
09:02I find apparently boys like with the penis thing, just like a fire hose.
09:07Um, I wouldn't know.
09:09Just perfect daughter.
09:10Um, but going back to the article, so we're talking about kind of chemical changes and
09:16some of them made sense to me and others, I was like, I don't know what that actually
09:20is.
09:20Um, but reading from, um, a testosterone drop, which kind of makes sense in terms of, okay,
09:28we need to be more care.
09:31Testosterone to me, and I'm not a scientist.
09:33I'm not a scientist.
09:34Um, testosterone to me is all about manliness and muscles and I am stoic and I am here to
09:40look after.
09:41Um, so there is a testosterone drop, which suggests that you become softer and perhaps
09:47more caring.
09:47Um, an oxytocin spike, which, um, my understanding is that like, it's like the love drug or it's
09:55good food.
09:56Got a, got a thumbs up there.
09:57Um, which I think an article says the more time you spend with your child, the higher your
10:05oxytocin.
10:05Who would have thought?
10:06And I wonder, like, I couldn't tell you if I have, like, is it something you can feel?
10:12Like, I know that when I sit down and dedicate time to my daughter, say we're drawing or playing
10:18Play-Doh, there is this sense of calm.
10:22And maybe that is the kind of love drug kind of spiking.
10:26Like, can you give me an example of when, like, when you've actually felt that?
10:31I remember one time I was walking my daughter through our local park on like a Sunday spring
10:38afternoon.
10:39And then she sat down and wanted to just count flowers.
10:42And I sat with her and we counted flowers.
10:44I could have cried.
10:45I was so happy.
10:46It's like a movie.
10:47It was unbelievable.
10:49My daughter's not like that.
10:51I'm getting her tonight.
10:52We're going to go count flowers.
10:53Go count flowers.
10:53I strongly recommend her.
10:55Go count flowers at sunset.
10:56Um, my, yeah, obviously my experience was so different having done surrogacy and also
11:02done, um, we can talk about this more another time, but, uh, international surrogacy.
11:07So Billy was born in Canada.
11:09Does she have Canadian residency?
11:11She does.
11:11She's a Canadian.
11:12She has a Canadian passport and soon to be British passport as well.
11:16She has three.
11:17Um, but we, we did all of that and we also did it all in the middle of COVID.
11:21So we couldn't leave the country even, um, to meet our surrogate.
11:25We met her over zoom.
11:27We had a really, um, active group chat.
11:29We were chatting to her all the time.
11:30We were there for all the scans and things on zoom.
11:32So you were literally on the other side of the world during the time that this article
11:36says there's changes happening.
11:38Yeah.
11:39Yeah.
11:39So then, but then we were there obviously for the birth and so we, and you know, she
11:43was born and we got to hold her straight away.
11:45And I don't know, I felt that connection instantly.
11:49Yeah.
11:50And then the, cause the other thing that the article talks about is gay dads often, at least
11:55one of them takes on kind of the traditional mother responsibilities, the primary carer
12:00responsibilities.
12:00And that was me.
12:01I took like 18 months off work.
12:03So my, uh, connection to Billy really developed over that time.
12:08And how did your husband, like how did that work for him?
12:12I mean, I think he felt it too, but it was, I mean, it was, it was a slightly different
12:16relationship for him.
12:17And I think, uh, there were times as there often is with kids early on where she, she
12:24definitely did prefer me over him at the beginning.
12:26Um, and she was maybe a bit more comforted by me and that's hard, obviously for parents.
12:31Well, see, I think I've skipped that.
12:33Um, so my daughter and I's mother separated quite early.
12:39I think she was about 18 months, maybe a bit younger.
12:41And so we've, I've never experienced the two of us standing there and her choosing
12:47to run to another one.
12:48My experience with Bino is when I'm with her, I am, I was about to say God, but I am
12:56like,
12:57I'm her full priority and like, yeah, her favorite.
13:00Um, and so I, I seem to feel, I feel for you.
13:05Nobody talks about the upsides of being a single dad.
13:07Yeah, no, there, then there are a few and we will get into them.
13:10Um, and there's some down ones and some middle ones as well.
13:13The biggest one for me was social though, because I not only having worked for like 15
13:20years up to that point and then suddenly found myself not working for a really long stretch
13:24of time and also friendship groups change over time, especially when you become a parent.
13:30And then as a gay dad, almost none of my friends.
13:34Well, yeah, I was going to say like.
13:35None of my friends from my pre baby life have kids.
13:38I have now found other gay dads and we have kind of formed a new community and that's its
13:43own beautiful thing.
13:44Um, but the social aspects of having a kid, uh, and the change that comes with that were
13:49really quite profound.
13:50And there's, there are people who I'll use my younger sister as an example.
13:54They tried to kind of continue the kind of social aspect of their life that they had pre-baby as
14:02they're going to pubs and all that kind of thing with mates.
14:06And I don't think we were like that.
14:09Like it did, it had a profound change on our kind of socializing and, and to be fair, um,
14:16um, my daughter was born, um, and then COVID hit.
14:19So there was that kind of isolation anyway.
14:22Um, but I, I admire people who go, no, this is not going to change our lives.
14:27And if they're traveling internationally with a six month old power to them, um, and I always
14:33try to be very, um, understanding of parents and young babies on, on planes.
14:38I've done that.
14:39Yeah.
14:40Cause there's, it sucks.
14:41It's a nightmare.
14:42Yeah.
14:42It's awful.
14:43And, but there's nothing you can do.
14:45They're just a little human.
14:46Um, right.
14:48Like the social thing for me, I mean, you mentioned that you've got like gay dad friends now,
14:55and I'm kind of getting to that stage where the daycare dads will come together and like,
15:01we'll all go to a daycare party.
15:02And then the dads kind of crowd around and have lad chats and dad chats.
15:06Um, and that's a new kind of aspect to the whole thing for me, because like you, I didn't
15:13have that many friends who had kids, especially Sabrina's age, some are older, some just don't
15:18have kids.
15:19Um, and so it does, it makes it hard going, okay, on the weekend I have my daughter, who
15:25am I going to see?
15:26Who's going to want to hang out with me and my daughter?
15:28Uh, which makes it tough.
15:31All right.
15:32Before we, um, shut down this chat about changes.
15:36I know we could probably talk for the next year about changes because they happen every
15:41single day.
15:42There are moments where I'm like, can you stop growing up?
15:45But then a change will happen.
15:46It's like, I know that's quite cute.
15:47You can keep that.
15:48You can stay.
15:49Um, but let's, for me, you could, um, say that my life is, uh, before daughter, after daughter.
15:59Mm-hmm . So is there anything in particular that you miss in the before daughter era?
16:06And I'm looking at you with a smile, cause I can imagine there are a few things, but anything
16:10that's safe for this podcast?
16:13Yeah, honestly, no.
16:15Like, I mean the, the social life stuff a little bit in the sense that like, you know, that's
16:22not like I was a big party guy before she was born or anything like that, but you know,
16:26we would have a good time and I guess I miss some of that, but you know, I, we also
16:32actually
16:32still do manage to do that.
16:33It's like we, you know, she goes and stays at her grandparents every now and then.
16:37And maybe my husband can head out and have a nice weekend, whether it's like heading
16:41to the movies or whatever.
16:42So like, I don't actually really miss any of that.
16:44I feel kind of the opposite in the sense that like becoming a dad feels like me becoming
16:52the version of myself I was always meant to be.
16:55I remember people telling me before my daughter was born, it's like, and like my wife was
17:00pregnant, um, you're about to join a club and you don't know what that club is like until
17:06you're in it.
17:07And I agree with you wholeheartedly.
17:09Um, and I suppose I kind of have two lives.
17:14So I have my time with my daughter and then I have my time, which you could say is like
17:21pre my daughter, um, and so it is every week I kind of shift from one to the other and
17:29kind of getting used to that initially was quite hard because I dropped my daughter off
17:35at daycare for her mom to pick her up and it would be a mix of relief, but then also
17:40a
17:40mix of, oh, I'm not a dad anymore.
17:42Um, and so kind of navigating that shift has been tough, but now it seems to, I think it's
17:52kind of settled into, no, this is just the, the cadence of my life.
17:57And I communicate with her mom when I don't have her, um, about whatever it might be.
18:03Cause I think that's the lot of a co-parent.
18:06Um, and that's just part of my life.
18:09Um, I think I miss sleeping in though.
18:12Yeah, that's true.
18:14We don't sleep in past like 6am anymore.
18:16Even when, even if she sleeps in past 6am, I can't do it anymore.
18:19I just wake up, which is really, which is really cool.
18:22She is starting to sleep in a bit on weekends, but I'm awake and that's not the way that's
18:26meant to work at all.
18:28On to the next segment, which is what the, did you just say?
18:33Um, now I'm sure there's a lot of fathers and parents out there who have kind of stopped
18:38when words have come out of the child's mouth.
18:42Um, I'll kick things off.
18:44Um, I mentioned, uh, my ex-wife is happily married.
18:49Um, and I had my daughter a couple of days ago, a couple of weeks ago now, and she came
18:55out of the shower, we were putting on her pajamas and she was like, did you know that
19:00there's a baby in mommy's belly?
19:03And there was this moment of, and it wasn't, it was kind of like when I found out that her
19:08mom was getting married, there was like, okay, that's a shift, but nothing like, um, but I
19:15just found it hilarious that she just, it just came out.
19:21And like, you know, how kids learn to manipulate and lie a little bit.
19:25And I was like, okay, well, this could be true or this could not be true.
19:27But then she started going into a little bit more detail.
19:30And so obviously her mom has had a chat about her, um, having a little boy and going, oh,
19:37we'll still love you, but we'll be busy with the thing.
19:39And she kind of just regurgitated that, which is one of her great habits.
19:42Like you can always tell us like someone said that to her and now she's owning it as her
19:46own.
19:47Um, and it's, I soon found out from her mom that she was in fact pregnant.
19:54And so that all sorted itself out.
19:56But I kind of like, not that I would ever use my daughter as a messenger, but maybe just
20:02going, Hey, could you just let mom know that, um, it's annoying when she messages too much
20:06or whatever it might be.
20:08And then she can go over to her mom's house and be like, yeah, mom, do you think it's annoying
20:14when you messaged dad too much?
20:16She doesn't message me too much.
20:18We're all good.
20:18Um, but yeah, what do you got?
20:20Um, you know, I had one like kind of similar the other day.
20:23It was my mother's birthday.
20:26Happy birthday to your mother.
20:27Thank you very much.
20:28If you're watching, happy birthday.
20:29She will not watch this.
20:30I guarantee it.
20:31Um, but as all good sons do, my gift to her was to ask her to babysit Billy the night
20:39before
20:40her birthday, so mom stayed at our place and before she got there, I took Billy down to
20:47the shops and we said, Oh, we'll buy it.
20:49We'll buy a present, a birthday present for Rose.
20:51That's my mom, Rose.
20:52Um, cause that's my ex-wife's name.
20:54Oh, really?
20:55So we need to make sure that we get the roses, don't get them mixed up.
20:58Otherwise that's a very close relationship we have.
21:01Um, and my mother refused to be called like Nan or grandma.
21:05She had to be Rose, but that's not a conversation.
21:07Yeah, it is, um, I said, Oh, we'll go down to the shops.
21:11We'll get it.
21:11We'll get a gift for Rose.
21:12She said, yeah, cool, cool, cool.
21:13So we, we went down, we went shopping, came home, wrapped it up, got Billy to like write
21:18up a card and everything.
21:19And then we hid it under Billy's bed.
21:20And I said to her, I said, when you wake up in the morning, get the present and take
21:25it out and give it to Rose.
21:27Then it's Rose's birthday.
21:28She said, yeah, cool, cool, cool.
21:29And then Rose came over on Saturday afternoon and Billy said to her, I've got a surprise.
21:35And Rose said, what is it?
21:37And Billy said, I can't tell you.
21:40It's a, it's a secret.
21:42And then Rose went, okay, all right.
21:43No further questions.
21:44And then they walked a little bit further down the street and then Billy said, it's a candle.
21:49Oh, well, and that, uh, that to me is all about the idea of keeping a secret.
21:58I don't know if, uh, my daughter's mom said, oh, don't tell anybody, but I'm pretty, but
22:03like they don't have that concept yet and beware when they figure it out.
22:09A secret is the most exciting thing you can give them.
22:11Yeah.
22:12They love a secret.
22:12Like, don't tell me a secret because I will actually, yeah, no, don't tell me a secret
22:18because it's far too juicy and exciting to share.
22:21Um, but it's, I, I, I find it a joy kind of when those things happen, because that's not
22:29something that I experienced before I was a father.
22:33No.
22:33Like I didn't have this little human learning how to be a little human and us being responsible
22:38in a big way as to the kind of human that they will turn out to be and just experiencing
22:45them doing things for the first time and going, oh, I've got a secret or, hey, did you know?
22:51I mean, that, that's a highlight for me, I think in terms of, um, parenting.
22:56To bring it all back to the theme of change.
22:58This is why I don't miss anything from before because all the stuff that happens now is so
23:01much more fun.
23:02Well, it is, it makes life very interesting.
23:04It really does.
23:05The bad and the in-between.
23:06Um, that, it was good to chat to you about, um, being a dad.
23:10Great.
23:11Should we do it again?
23:12We should do this again.
23:13Okay.
23:13I think we should do it again.
23:14Um, thank you for, um, listening and watching.
23:17Um, you can find the article that we referenced.
23:20What was it called again?
23:22Dad brain, how fatherhood rewires the male mind or something like that.
23:27Okay, great.
23:27Well, we'll get the title right in the show notes and you can have a read yourself.
23:31Feel free to write in, comment what you might think.
23:35If you've got any anecdotes, please share.
23:37If you think my anecdotes or Rob's anecdotes were terrible.
23:41Send us your own and we'll steal them.
23:42Yeah.
23:43We're adults and we can take any criticism.
23:45Um, but Rob, a pleasure.
23:47Always.
23:48See ya.
23:49Bye.
23:50Bye.
23:54Bye.
24:00Bye.
24:00Bye.
24:01Bye.
24:01Bye.
24:09You