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Рост популярности ультраправых: кто виноват? Евродепутаты спорят в «The Ring»

Все внимание приковано к выборам в небольшом восточногерманском федеральном регионе Саксония‑Анхальт. Возможное абсолютное большинство ультраправых способно перевернуть немецкую политику и потрясти Европу. Начало нового кризиса?

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00:15Продолжение следует...
00:30...it could affect Europe and the wider world.
00:34Luis Albertus tells you why all eyes are suddenly on Saxony-Anhalt.
00:42Saxony-Anhalt is a small state in eastern Germany, but on Sunday it could become the center of a political
00:48earthquake.
00:49The AfD party is polling at more than 40%, far ahead of Friedrich Merz's Christian Democrats.
00:56Such a strong result could give the far right a path to governing a German state for the first time
01:01in the post-war era.
01:02That would shatter one of the most important political taboos in modern Germany and send a powerful signal to Europe.
01:09A stronger AfD would mean a tougher battle over migration, climate policy and support for Ukraine,
01:16and potentially a more difficult Germany for the EU to rely on at a time when Europe is already facing
01:22enormous geopolitical pressure.
01:24So is Saxony-Anhalt simply expressing frustration with the political establishment?
01:29Or are we about to witness a turning point for Germany, and potentially for Europe?
01:36So, a lot to unpack here for our contenders, and here they are!
01:42Hildegard Bentele, a German MEP from the Central-Right European People's Party.
01:46In the European Parliament, she is a vice chair of the Committee on Development and a member of the Committee
01:51on Industry, Research and Energy.
01:52She also chairs a delegation for relations with Israel.
01:56She says,
01:56As Christian Democrats, we are convinced that the only way to counter the rise of the far right in Saxony
02:01-Anhalt, in Germany, and across Europe,
02:04is listening closely to people, offering realistic solutions and presenting, based on our values, an optimistic vision for the future.
02:11Jean-Marc Germain, a French MEP from the Socialists and Democrats.
02:15An economist by training, he is a former advisor to former Prime Minister of France, Lionel Jospin,
02:21and one of the main figures within the Socialists and Democrats group in the European Parliament.
02:25He said,
02:26As long as Europe fails to build economic sovereignty, the far right will thrive in the regions devastated by globalization
02:31and deindustrialization.
02:35So, let me welcome to the ring Hildegard Bentele and Jean-Marc Germain.
02:40Thank you for coming. Great to have you here. Good to see you both.
02:45The aim of the ring is to offer our viewers a glimpse at European Parliament debates, so you should feel
02:51right at home.
02:53Are you ready?
02:53I'm ready.
02:54Great.
02:55So, let me start with you, Hildegard. You're from Germany, and I want to start with the central dilemma here.
03:03Why is the political center losing voters for years now?
03:08Because we are in a difficult general, difficult political situation, geopolitically, also economically, the situation in Germany is difficult for
03:18the last seven years.
03:19We didn't have a growth in the German economy, so people are very concerned about jobs, also about geopolitical risks.
03:28We have a war at our borders, so people feel insecure.
03:34And so we have to resolve concrete political questions, also internal questions with regard to reforms of our social system,
03:43of our health system.
03:44And, of course, we have to tackle migration, which has become a bigger problem since 2015.
03:50That all sounds familiar when I look to France, Jean-Marc. No political growth, economic problems, job insecurity, healthcare issues,
03:59etc.
03:59So, what's the view from France?
04:03I think that exactly the same things are driving the rise of the far rights.
04:08There are a lot of reasons, but if I may point just one that I think is key is the
04:15industrialization.
04:17If you compare the scores of the far right at the last national elections or kind of national election, which
04:25was the European election, the score of the far right in France is clearly proportional to the industrialization.
04:34For example, the far right is at 42%, exactly as the situation of the pool in Saxony and Halt in
04:46Hauts-de-France.
04:47So, for me, the solution is not to say to people you're wrong, to look at far rights, but to
04:55try to solve their issue.
04:57And, for me, the biggest challenge of Europe, national government, but also European Union is trying to make Europe a
05:09strong and sovereign economy.
05:11I mean, if you look at the parties of the political centers who have for decades in the post-war
05:16era guaranteed political stability, economic prosperity, etc., etc., and all of a sudden there is trust that is lacking.
05:26I wonder whether this is rather the center left or the center right who is responsible for this.
05:35Hildegard, what do you think?
05:36Well, I would not finger-point at one or the other.
05:40We need each other.
05:42And I think that's the central message, at least for Germany, because we are far away from times when we
05:47had absolute maturity.
05:48That was the case only once, and that other now.
05:51So, if we are used to go into coalitions, I know France is completely different, but this is why we
05:56are still, you know, governing.
05:58And we are currently in a coalition with the Social Democrats, like we have been for many times.
06:04And we have a very comprehensive reform package ahead of us, which we are going to tackle now.
06:09And I wish the same would happen in France, but I have to admit that the French conservatives are the
06:16weaker party.
06:16Right.
06:17There is no spirit of collaboration and coalition in France, right?
06:22Why is that so?
06:23I think that, first, the right in France has turned to be kind of close to the far right.
06:33And is, as it was said, decreasing.
06:36So, even if we would try to make a coalition with the right, it doesn't make the numbers to win
06:43the election.
06:44Second is, for me, that maybe we made, as center left and center right, a common mistake in the 90s,
06:5420s,
06:55is that we saw that globalization would bring a better life in Europe.
07:02And it turns that it's not the case, because globalization works when there is cooperation.
07:09But now there is competition and even worse.
07:13And it's the reason I was speaking of the industrialization, that we lose control of our economies.
07:20And for us, and maybe as socialists and social democrats, because our way of thinking is more eager to take
07:31control of economy,
07:33we are maybe in advance, not in the pool, but still in the way of thinking.
07:39And I think that the big job to do for the center right is to admit that globalization is not
07:46working
07:46and that Europe has to develop a strong industry to use tools to control the economy and not to go,
07:57as we do now still,
08:00into a race of trade agreement and free trade.
08:02Bringing the famous firewall.
08:06Yes.
08:07Right.
08:07So the design by the parties of the center to get together to prevent the far right or far left
08:16from taking over and coming into power.
08:20Is this still a workable solution?
08:24Or if not, what happens if the firewall crumbles?
08:30Well, first of all, I would wish that there is a firewall against both extremes.
08:35We have it against the right now, but it's not the case with our partners.
08:39There is no socialist firewall to the far left, which is also very radical, anti-Semitic, anti-European, anti-NATO,
08:47anti-military support of Ukraine.
08:49So I think, I mean, for us, it's a very principled stance.
08:52It's not a political strategy, but, you know, the far right contradicts our fundamental values, our policy choices.
09:00Like, as I said, we are pro-European, we are anti-Russia.
09:03We are pro-democracy.
09:05We have a clear stance on our Nazi past.
09:09So, and they want to destroy us.
09:11So their main goal is to destroy us.
09:13So why?
09:13So it's a very principled stance.
09:14But our political strategy is, of course, to combat the party politically with our better arguments, with our better solutions.
09:22But it's a principled stance, and I think it's a good stance.
09:26Yeah.
09:26Jean-Marc, what's the French position here?
09:28I mean, are we at a stage now where this is all obsolete?
09:32No, for sure not.
09:35And in France, there is a part of the rights that made deals with the far rights, but still, main
09:42parties, right-wing parties, and center-right parties, still apply the firewall.
09:48But we have to be very clear.
09:50It's not a firewall against people.
09:53We don't deny what they say, the problems that they see.
09:57It's about, one, the fact that the far-right party taking the power in Europe would be a disaster.
10:04And we saw what happened with Urban.
10:06We saw what happened with the peace in Poland.
10:11We know that it starts with the end of rule of law in those countries, the end of fundamental liberties.
10:19And then the economic problems arise, because those parties want to leave Europe, basically, even if they don't say.
10:26So what we have to do is to solve the issue of people.
10:31And, of course, we all want to do it.
10:33But my main message, if we don't tackle the issue of globalization and all the problems that arrive, less jobs.
10:44But if there are less jobs, there is less money for local authorities, so less public services, less hospitals, and
10:52people feel abandoned.
10:53And we have to solve that.
10:54I'd also like to underline that, you know, the far-left also poses a lot of problems.
11:01I mean, in France, we've got to the disastrous financial situation of France, highly indebted.
11:06So, Mr. Mélenchon proposes just to cancel the debt or the interest.
11:10You know, I mean, it's crazy.
11:11So, and I can say it for Berlin, you know, the far-left, who might, you know, win the mayorship
11:17in Berlin in three weeks' time,
11:19is openly antisemitic, wants to nationalize.
11:22And so, I mean, these are not solutions we can have at European, regional, and national levels.
11:31So, we should, you know, be very careful on both sides.
11:36So, I would be happy, you know, that we talk very concretely about firewalls against agreements and a better cooperation
11:43in the center.
11:45Because, unfortunately, Jean-Marc was not very clear about it.
11:47I think it should, even the question to France, how much you can better cooperate on pension reforms, which are
11:52essential for France,
11:53which cannot be advanced because, you know, single group interests prevail over the common interests and over the European interests.
12:02And you attacked trade agreements.
12:04I mean, trade agreements are the co-competence of the European Union.
12:07If you undermine it with the extremes and put a nationalist stance before it, this is not helpful.
12:14Points well taken. I'm sure we come back to this issue.
12:17For the center.
12:17But let me stop you there, as we're just getting warmed up.
12:20And it's now time for Gloves Off.
12:27Now we want viewers to get a real flavor of the European Parliament chamber, where members ask each other questions.
12:34So, let's get started.
12:35And Hildegard, I want to start with you.
12:37Your first question to Jean-Marc.
12:38Yeah.
12:39Jean-Marc, I mean, we are at halftime in the European Parliament.
12:42And I think there is the need to renew our cooperation and the platform, what we used to have, which
12:48can be better activated.
12:50I think because we have challenges ahead of us with regard to the security challenge, economic challenge, as you said,
12:56migration again.
12:58So, what is your personal commitment to this cooperation between the center-right, which is us, Christian Democrats, and the
13:06social Democrats, and, of course, the liberals?
13:08Well, I'm ready to do it.
13:11And even more than that, I would wish that the rights in this house will stop to pick and choose
13:19the far-right when it's needed for migration, for example, files, and the center-left when the far-right is
13:29not there.
13:29So, really, if we can do it, not only fight by fight, but really with a direction that we want
13:38to follow together would be really important.
13:41But, again, we have to decide what we want to do together.
13:48Put it in practice.
13:48Now, your question to Hildegard.
13:49Now, my question, and sorry, maybe to repeat, but I think that we have to have simple ideas in politics,
13:57is that when CDU, your party, would understand that the industrialization and social decline are fueling AFD, and that your
14:10agenda of globalization is only making it stronger?
14:17Well, I mean, I think there's a difference.
14:19We don't have an agenda of globalization, but we have an agenda of open markets, that's for sure.
14:24And we have one difference that the trade agreements, which I maybe heard you oppose in general, which we strongly
14:30support, because it gives a lot of chances.
14:32It can be put in figures, the chances for our European industry, with the Mercosur, with the Vietnamese, Australian, whatever.
14:40I mean, this is just a benefit.
14:41If you look at the trade agreement with Canada, which is even beneficial for French farmers, but you have not
14:47yet taken the serious stance.
14:49And to defend it back home, I don't understand.
14:51I think we should be more serious about that.
14:54This is a clear benefit.
14:56I mean, I'm in favor of, you know, supporting more our industry, because we need support, because there's unfair competition.
15:03I fully agree.
15:04But we have limited resources.
15:06You talked about the budget.
15:07The budget will not be bigger.
15:09It might be smaller.
15:10I think that's the realistic perspective.
15:15And in France, your resources are limited to support industry by money.
15:20So we need to do it through regulation.
15:23And here we need to take bold steps.
15:26And we only cooperate.
15:28We would always go first for the support for Social Democrats.
15:31But on crucial files like migration, this is the reason why the far right has risen so much, because we
15:38haven't solved the migration fail for years, because we lack support of the Social Democrats.
15:42And we will also, if we continue to lack support for economic measures, which help our industry, it's our responsibility
15:50to do it together.
15:52All right.
15:53Thanks for this interesting.
15:53Maybe a follow-up question, just very shortly.
15:55Very shortly.
15:56Because I'm in charge of the budget in this house for the Social Democrats.
16:01And your chancellor wants to reduce by 400 million the commission proposal.
16:06How do you want to re-industrialize without money at European level?
16:10Well, it's not all about money.
16:12This is what I said.
16:13We have limited resources.
16:14We have to invest our money into our defense, as we know.
16:18We have new tasks which we didn't perceive at that moment, but they are priorities.
16:23We have to set priorities.
16:25This is why we reform our pension system, our health care, because they are too costly.
16:30We cannot afford this anymore.
16:32We have to set priorities.
16:33But I'm with you to set priorities to revive our industry.
16:37All right.
16:37Now, that's a very tricky issue here.
16:40We'll be following the budgetary debates, of course, until the end of the year.
16:43Now, we have heard the views from our guests.
16:46It's time now to hear from a new voice.
16:52I would like to bring in German Chancellor Friedrich Merz, who is trying to stave off an AFD victory by
16:59warning against possible economic consequences.
17:02During the campaign a couple of days ago, he said this, and I quote,
17:07I cannot imagine international investors still showing up for a groundbreaking ceremony with an AFD state premier to establish new
17:16plans or set up new businesses in Saxony-Anhalt.
17:20Saxony-Anhalt must not become an experimental field for angry citizens.
17:26Now, will this convince the 40 plus minus percent of voters who are angry?
17:35Hildegard?
17:35Well, I think, you know, partly the concerns of citizens in Saxony-Anhalt are economic.
17:40It's about jobs.
17:42It's about rural areas, which have been abandoned.
17:44That is true.
17:44This is why we need investments.
17:46That's the point that John Martin mentioned earlier.
17:48Now, this is clear.
17:48But we have another, I think, part which we also should take more into consideration.
17:53You know, I know Sven Schulze very well.
17:54He used to be a former colleague here in the parliament who is, you know, the top candidate of the
17:58CDU.
17:58And he says he never talked so much about culture, media, identity before.
18:03And I think this is a very crucial point we have to tackle much more, you know, to talk about
18:08values, about, you know, the fears.
18:10Because the far right is inciting fear.
18:15It's talking about, you know, catastrophic scenarios, painting the world dark.
18:19Inciting fear.
18:20Jean-Marc, there's a similar situation in France with the far right maybe taking over next year.
18:28Is the same risk present in France?
18:33Will investors, foreign investors, stay away from France if there is a far right president?
18:41Yes, for sure.
18:43But it's not that, because it's true, what the councillor is saying, that it will convince people.
18:50So really people first turn to the far right because they think that other politicians don't have any solutions.
19:00So we have to be convincing about our solution.
19:04That's why I think that Europe is a convincing solution.
19:08And if AFD or National Front Rassemblement in France would take the power, their first thing is to go out
19:18of Europe.
19:19The very institution that can solve, for example, the industrialization problem.
19:25So we have to say in Germany or in France, we are going to build new cars here in Saxony
19:31and Halt.
19:31But how are we going to do?
19:34We are going to make the European preference a reality.
19:38And I think it's really key.
19:40We have to say to people what will happen and we have to raise credible solutions.
19:45All right.
19:47Let's take a break here on The Ring.
19:49We'll be back with more.
19:51After this, don't go away.
20:02Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show.
20:05I'm Stefan Grobe and I'm joined by Jean-Marc Germain from the Socialists and Democrats from France
20:11and Hildegard Bentele from the European People's Party from Germany.
20:15At this point, let's take a look at the topics that move voters in Saxony and Halt.
20:21So these are surveys among the electorate in Saxony and Halt.
20:25And we see here the top issue.
20:2739% is the economy, jobs and wages, followed by infrastructure, depopulation, aging communities.
20:36And only then migration and asylum with 23%, closely followed by education, schools, daycare.
20:45A very important topic during the campaign with 22% and 11% of voters say healthcare.
20:50Yet migration has been the most important battleground in the public debate.
20:58Yet the economy and jobs are higher on the agenda.
21:01Why this disconnect?
21:03And Saxony and Halt, if I may say, has one of the lowest rates of foreigners in Germany.
21:09Half of the national average.
21:11So why should people bother?
21:12Because it's the same story every time in history.
21:18When the cake is shrinking, the nationalists say, okay, it's for German first or for French first or whatever country.
21:27So it's very easy to use this argument.
21:30But it's false.
21:32For example, your poll is saying that one issue is depopulation.
21:38And how do you make population grow again?
21:41And also, how do you provide companies with workers?
21:45It's also by migrations.
21:47Second thing is also that the poll reflects some of the fake news in the public debate.
21:56So whatever Merz will do at German level or whatever the two of us will do at European level,
22:03maybe people don't see it because it's completely deformed and transformed by social network.
22:12So the reality of and the possibility of public politicians to be heard by people is really an issue.
22:21That's why we have to tackle the issue of fake news of also foreign interference.
22:28And it's really strong in Germany with Russian trying to ban the election.
22:33It's really important.
22:33So, Hildegard, Saxony and Halt in East Germany has lost about one third of its population since German unification.
22:41That also means that they need, you know, more people, more input.
22:45They need skills from maybe a foreigner.
22:49So why is this such a at times vicious debate?
22:53Well, the far right is saying we don't need more people.
22:56You know, the German population could shrink.
22:58That's not a problem.
22:59Or we would prefer, you know, German women to give birth to more kids.
23:05This is also what urban policy was, you know, to to inside, you know, Germans to to get more kids,
23:10which is a point which we should consider, you know, to be to make a more family friendly policies.
23:16I think this is, you know, also our task as centrist parties.
23:20But of course, I mean, this is why we need to give serious answers to the, you know, economic industrial
23:25challenges of the people to demography.
23:27And, you know, the far right only puts everything that's a scapegoat, you know, the migrant, that's a scapegoat.
23:33But I want to say one thing.
23:35Why migration is so high on the agenda?
23:37And, you know, it's not the normal general migrant, but it's we have we had attacks in Germany often by
23:45refugees, which didn't have a right to stay still in Germany.
23:49So and this happened more and more often.
23:51I saw it in Berlin, like, you know, three weeks ago at the pride.
23:55But so there is a real, you know, feeling of insecurity.
24:00And this affects not only, you know, far right voters, this affects the whole German population.
24:05I think it's the same in France that people don't feel secure anymore.
24:09And this is why we have to tackle the issue of migration and to deal with illegal migration to control
24:16better who comes to our countries.
24:17And what kind of values those who came here and who stayed here, you know, present?
24:24Because we have a real problem of parallel societies, of people, mainly from Islamistic background,
24:29who do not embrace at all our values, equality of men and women and so on.
24:34Do you agree with her?
24:35Where I don't agree is to put an equal thing or that's not exactly what you did, but that's what
24:42the far right is doing between insecurity and immigration.
24:46There is no link at all.
24:48There is a link, of course, with poverty, because when people have nothing, there is small insecurity related to that.
24:55But there is no, no link.
24:57And maybe in France, what is different that is that integration is still working a little bit, even if we
25:05have issues.
25:06So what we will wear in the next election is to say to young people coming from abroad and being
25:19now French that you are France with the value of France.
25:24And that's the key for my party, but I guess also for you, for people coming from abroad, from generations,
25:33to be part, to feel part of the nation.
25:36Okay, now it's time to move on to our fifth and final round.
25:44As always, we're doing something different now.
25:47I'm going to ask you a set of questions and you can only answer with a yes or no.
25:55Could this election in Saxony-Anhalt change Europe's political balance?
26:01No, not at all. And my bet is that the far right will not win.
26:07Okay.
26:07No.
26:08So at the end of the day, it's not important enough.
26:10It's a regional phenomenon.
26:11Okay.
26:12Is the lesson of Saxony-Anhalt that mainstream parties have failed to address voters' fears of migration, security and economic
26:20decline?
26:21Yes.
26:23Yes.
26:23Can Germany simultaneously reduce immigration and solve its demographic and labor force problems?
26:31We have to and we are committed to.
26:33No.
26:34No.
26:34Okay.
26:35For sure, no.
26:36I mean, if you have less population, you cannot have more industry, you cannot finance the social security system.
26:45You will have a different industry, you cannot go back to the past.
26:48The system will collapse.
26:50No.
26:50You will have artificial intelligence, you will have different jobs, maybe with less people.
26:55Can you defeat the far right without adopting some of its policies?
26:59For sure, and we will.
27:01Yes.
27:01But it doesn't mean that we don't have to solve problems of people.
27:06Exactly.
27:06The far right doesn't offer really answers.
27:09They just want to go back to times which will never come back.
27:12So, no, we don't adapt their ideas.
27:16We stick to our ideas.
27:17Wonderful conclusion.
27:18Thank you very much.
27:19And that final answer brings us to the end of this edition of The Ring.
27:23Thanks again to Jean-Marc Germain and Hildegard Bentele for a lively conversation here from the European Parliament.
27:28Thanks to our audience at home.
27:31If you like, you can continue the conversation by sending us your comments to thering at euronews.com.
27:37That's it for today.
27:38I'm Stefan Grobe.
27:39Take care and see you soon here on Euronews.

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