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Despite more than two decades of regional cooperation, the haze problem continues to return, raising questions about the effectiveness of existing policies and ASEAN’s commitment to a haze-free region. Nailah Huda speaks with Associate Professor Dr. Helena Varkkey to discuss what is driving the recurring crisis.
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00:07This is Awani Global with me, Nailah Huda.
00:09This week on Awani Global, we want to take a close look at transboundary haze,
00:13once again affecting Southeast Asia as fires in Indonesia spread smoke across borders.
00:19Despite more than two decades of regional cooperation, the haze problem continues to return,
00:24raising questions about the effectiveness of existing policies and ASEAN's commitment to a haze-free region.
00:31And in this hour, joining us to discuss what is driving the recurring crisis,
00:36what are perhaps some of the approaches that have worked and may not necessarily work.
00:40Joining us online is Associate Professor Dr. Helena Varkey from the Department of International and Strategic Studies,
00:46Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences at University of Malaya.
00:49Thank you so much, Dr. Helena, for joining us on Awani Global.
00:53Well, of course, this has been, you know, your bulk of your career really is looking at this issue,
01:02this transboundary haze.
01:03And now that it's returned, you know, a nearly annual or seasonal issue for this part of the world,
01:09how serious is the current situation this time around and what is driving the latest fires?
01:15Yeah, thanks so much, Nailah, for having me.
01:17So I'll go a bit into why this is happening again, right?
01:21So this year is potentially a bit more serious than the previous years because we have this cyclical nature of
01:29the El Nino
01:30and it's coming up to the time where we are likely to have a super El Nino.
01:34And what that means is there will be more warmer and drier conditions than usual across the region.
01:40And the last time we had something similar to this, a super El Nino, we also had really bad haze.
01:45That was 1997, 2015.
01:47So you will remember that was a time where we were in haze crisis as well.
01:51So when we do have these warmer and drier conditions, there is an increased risk of accidental fires.
01:58And if intentional fires happen, they become worse as well.
02:02And these fires also become harder to put out because there'll be less rainfall
02:06and there's also less water for firefighting and other reasons for this.
02:12So with phenomenon such as extreme dry weather and El Nino,
02:17can we expect haze to worsen over the years to come?
02:21Yeah, so because of the El Nino cycle, some years will be wetter, some years will be drier.
02:28So it will generally follow that cycle.
02:31But of course, if we do address things on the ground, when the super El Nino does come around again,
02:37we can hope to see less severe haze.
02:40Now, of course, we're talking about El Nino and some of the extreme weather events that is already developing.
02:46Now, how much of what we are seeing can actually be attributed to these weather events to El Nino,
02:53unusually dry conditions and whatnot?
02:55How much of it is also fundamentally a human-made problem?
03:00So dry weather creates the conditions that makes the fires more likely and to persist and also to happen.
03:07And it also brings the haze over larger parts of the region.
03:11So if you have drier conditions, more parts of ASEAN will be affected.
03:15But the weather, the climate does not start the fires.
03:19So the root causes, of course, still goes back to what's happening on the ground.
03:23And this usually for our part of the world is land use change in peatlands,
03:28which is this very specific type of landscape that's really important,
03:31which is usually waterlogged in its natural form.
03:35But when it's drained, when it's cleared for agriculture or plantations,
03:39the nature of it means that it becomes extremely dry extremely quickly.
03:43So because of this disturbed landscape, even if there's no intentional fires, there's huge risk of fires.
03:51So the disturbance in the landscape is actually the root cause.
03:55So we want to look at some of the forms of control or governance that has been enacted or implemented
04:03in the region,
04:04looking at some of the efforts being done by ASEAN, having established some agreements,
04:10some action plans even since the 1990s,
04:12now recently establishing the ASEAN Coordinating Centre for Transboundary Haze Pollution Control,
04:17the ACC THBC.
04:20And despite all this, the problem keeps returning.
04:23Why is this so?
04:24So definitely the regional framework is already there.
04:27As you outlined, we have roadmaps on prevention.
04:30We have SOPs that spell out exactly what should be done when there is fires and haze.
04:35But there are still a lot of operational gaps here.
04:38So for example, at the ASEAN level, all countries have agreed to address haze together.
04:44But all national commitments, even though they have agreed, it's still basically voluntary.
04:49There's no punitive measures if a country does not observe or does not report as what it's supposed to.
04:55Also, we have good arrangements for emergency assistance.
04:58Everything is lined up, but the limitation is that it cannot be automatically activated.
05:03No matter how bad the haze is, you actually explicitly need permission from the host country.
05:08So these are some of the operational limitations.
05:10So having the coordination centre that you mentioned finally been established is good.
05:15But if there's nothing to coordinate, then it's kind of still a dead end.
05:19Hmm, as you said, without this coordination, without the punitive measures, the enforcement
05:26mechanisms to actually enforce, do you think that it's realistic to have this goal, this ambition
05:33of a haze-free ASEAN by 2030?
05:36Do you think this is realistic?
05:37Do you still think we have a long way to go?
05:40Yeah, so the haze-free ASEAN by 2030 is actually the goal of the second ASEAN roadmap for haze.
05:47It's not the first.
05:48The first roadmap was supposed to be haze-free ASEAN by 2020.
05:52So now they've pushed back the goal to 2030.
05:55So it's actually four years away.
05:58It's not that long.
05:592030 is four years away.
06:00So I feel that there's still a lot of things to be done.
06:03But things are moving forward, which in the normal nature of ASEAN, it's slow, but things
06:10are moving.
06:11The problem, I think, still is that haze continues to be a diplomatic flashpoint between the neighbours.
06:16So diplomatic culture, this issue about non-interference, saving face, and all this kind of stuff,
06:22they still get in the way of actual enforcement measures.
06:26So that diplomatic problem always hangs over us.
06:31Perhaps one way to counter that or to circumvent that is to look at incentives.
06:37Do you think that economic incentives might help, you know, looking at land use economics?
06:42In this case, we're also seeing some incentives making burning more attractive or even cheaper
06:49than sustainable alternatives.
06:51How can we understand this?
06:53Yeah, so burning is definitely cheaper, especially in peatlands, because peatlands are naturally
06:58waterlogged.
06:59So in order to make peatlands stable enough, you actually need to bring heavy machinery
07:04in if you don't burn.
07:05So it becomes really expensive because you need to drain the water away and all that.
07:10And also, burning is said to provide nutrients to the ground.
07:13So it's cheaper than using fertiliser.
07:16Of course, the economic disincentives for avoiding haze is high.
07:20But there's also economic incentives in the sense that there has been more awareness overall.
07:27People are aware that, you know, burning is bad for the environment.
07:30People are aware that big corporations do have to make that choice.
07:34And because of that, because of that exposure, large corporations are actually forced to be
07:40more careful now.
07:41They have to make that economic choice to spend more for sustainable measures because
07:45they know that people are watching them.
07:47So this is good because corporations are actually pressured by society, by the consumers.
07:54But then again, the underlying cause, which is that these corporations, these plantations
07:59exist in places which are fire prone, still remains.
08:03As long as these corporations are on peatlands, the land will continue to be sensitive to fires
08:10and the burden will always be there.
08:12And fire prevention is not cheap either.
08:14Just to avoid fires, not only to stop fires, this requires lots of investments from everyone
08:19involved.
08:20So these are some of the challenges.
08:22I want to go back to what you said earlier about haze still becoming this diplomatic flashpoint,
08:29invoking this culture of saving face.
08:31If we look at what sort of the position or stance that Malaysia has taken, Malaysia has
08:37called for a more preventative approach to haze rather than just simply reacting or responding
08:43when fires have already started.
08:46What do you think a genuinely preventive strategy would look like?
08:50So prevention really goes back to trying to fix the problems on the ground.
08:56So actually Malaysia and also ASEAN has been moving towards more prevention, which is good.
09:02There's more focus on effective management of peatlands.
09:06So year round, not just during the haze.
09:09So looking at things like, you know, making sure laws are in place for proper water management.
09:14It's not just Malaysia.
09:15Indonesia as well has progressed on this as well.
09:17So water management on peatlands, making sure that there are firefighting facilities available.
09:23All these are already there.
09:25But the problem is that when, you know, there is still a lot of leeway when it comes to things
09:33like
09:33if there is any wrongdoing being detected, whether or not this actually goes to the courts,
09:39whether or not it's taken seriously.
09:41We still do have this problem of patronage, corruption.
09:45It makes it harder for laws and regulations, even though they exist, to be enforced.
09:51So these are all the sort of cultural or economic environment issues that, you know,
09:58make it difficult for improvements to be fully implemented.
10:03Looking at the economics of HACE and trying to understand the sort of, you know, value or supply chain here,
10:11how much responsibility do you think should be placed on larger corporations, supply chains,
10:18compared with smaller farmers, local communities that may resort to fire as the cheapest alternative to clear land?
10:27Yeah.
10:28So this debate between small farmers and plantations is something that is very complicated, actually,
10:33and we have to deal with it carefully.
10:35Usually, smallholders, communities, they have been in the peatland areas for a long time.
10:41Before large companies come in.
10:43So, and they may have been doing traditional burning or their traditional methods of farming,
10:50which was fine at the time because the landscape was still very wet because it was undisturbed.
10:55So they managed to use the landscape in a way that did not really endanger the rest of the region
11:02in terms of HACE.
11:03But then in the past decades, the companies came in and they were the ones who changed the landscape.
11:10They altered the landscape in a way that perhaps traditional practices cannot be practiced freely and safely anymore.
11:16And when this happens, communities get blamed.
11:19But they were not the ones who altered the landscape in the first place.
11:22So it's a very complicated situation.
11:26And the responsibility must be shared properly.
11:29And also, the traceability needs to be there in terms of who is actually responsible for the root causes.
11:36So I think this is what is a lot missing in sort of the public debate about the problem.
11:41And to make things worse, now we have to deal with climate change on top of it all.
11:46And your earlier work, you've described this sort of vicious cycle between HACE and climate change.
11:51Can you explain a little bit about how that relationship works?
11:54How does climate change actually make HACE worse?
11:57How does HACE also then contribute to climate change?
12:00Yeah, so climate change and HACE is definitely closely related.
12:05Well, peatlands, as I said just now, is waterlogged.
12:08It's wet.
12:08Because it's waterlogged, it actually keeps carbon in the ground.
12:12It protects the carbon-rich peat soil from being exposed to the atmosphere, which will start decomposition.
12:17So peatlands are what is known as a carbon sink.
12:21So it's really important for the climate.
12:23So when we have peatland drainage, that is when the carbon-rich peat soils are suddenly exposed to the atmosphere.
12:31And this actually releases huge amounts of carbon.
12:35So if you want to take care of the peatlands, either for a haze reason or for a climate reason,
12:43it is a win-win situation because even though we cannot reverse what has been released,
12:50even if we have peatland restoration and stuff like that, but it can prevent more carbon from escaping.
12:56So if you have, and further on, if you have a changing climate,
13:01a climate that gets hotter and drier over time in this kind of long duration of what climate change is,
13:08there's going to be even worse effects of fires.
13:12El Nino will be heightened, we'll have drier conditions, harder to put out,
13:17less clouds for us to create, you know, rain and stuff like that.
13:21So it is a compounding problem.
13:23So then if climate change is expected to make extreme dry conditions even more frequent or even more intense,
13:30do you think that this means traditional, that the traditional seasonal approach to haze management
13:36is no longer relevant or sufficient in this case?
13:39Do you think that this approach then needs to adapt?
13:42Yes, definitely.
13:44So one of the big problems that I believe with haze management has always been its cyclical nature
13:50or its seasonal nature.
13:52Even in terms of how it's being talked about in the public, right, and in the news even,
13:57we talk about haze when haze happens.
13:59We don't really remember it outside of the haze season.
14:02Once it's gone, we all are really relieved and we move on.
14:05But when we make this connection between haze and climate change,
14:09I think this really shows the urgency of addressing the problem throughout the year,
14:13taking care of the peatlands throughout the year, even when it's, you know, high rainfall,
14:18it's really important not only for haze but also for climate in general.
14:24So I think this has to really, the public, the government, the scientists all,
14:30we need to change our mindset and how we see this problem actually from a seasonal thing
14:34to a constant long-term problem.
14:37Turning this into a more long-term strategy,
14:40you also do emphasise a lot on the importance and significance of peatlands in this region.
14:46Do you think that it could also help, you know, sort of changing this mindset
14:51and protecting, restoring Southeast Asia's peatlands,
14:55becoming part of the collective or holistic climate strategy in this region,
15:01rather than just treating peatlands or, you know, peatland protection as part of an anti-haze strategy?
15:07You know, it might not necessarily sound like the glamorous or sexiest climate environmental campaign,
15:14but do you think that it's worth paying more attention to this?
15:17Yes, definitely.
15:18We do need to mainstream peatlands in the carbon conversation.
15:23So, for example, there has been quite a lot of talk about carbon projects in peatlands.
15:30So in terms of trying to get some sort of payment for the preservation of peatlands
15:35so that there will be more of an economic interest to conserve these sensitive landscapes.
15:41So this could be a potential way forward to sort of mainstream it.
15:45But of course, carbon projects in peatlands are still very new.
15:49It's still something that is on its early stage.
15:52Countries involved, you know, they still have developing carbon markets and all that.
15:56And one of the big issues now is actually to ensure that the livelihoods of the communities
16:02who are living on peatlands will not be restrained or will not be blocked
16:06because of these carbon projects.
16:09So these are all some of the potential problems or potential issues that we need to be aware of
16:14when we want to mainstream this issue.
16:16But I think in the long run, it is definitely a more effective way to approach the problem.
16:22Talking about other effective ways or mechanisms to address this,
16:26you also recently looked at what you call a polycentric case governance,
16:31looking at the sort of democratization of environmental governance in ASEAN,
16:37looking at the role of governments, companies, civil society and other non-state actors
16:42rather than solely relying on ASEAN governments.
16:45Can you tell us a little bit about this and why it's important?
16:48Yeah, so actually, if we have seen around the region,
16:51there has been a lot of successful campaigns led by civil society and NGOs.
16:56We have seen it in Thailand, we have seen it in Singapore and Indonesia as well.
17:01To a certain extent, there are NGOs in Malaysia as well.
17:04One example is CHERA.
17:08And one example is CHERA.
17:10And this is an organization which has been created to promote the importance of clean air in Malaysia.
17:18So, you know, NGOs in Thailand and all,
17:22they have been able to implement changes in policy, changes in law and regulation.
17:29So I think this is something very hopeful for people here in Malaysia,
17:33we all in Malaysia, to try and put our power, our public power, to try and change things.
17:41Other ways that democratization in environmental governance is, you know, making things possible,
17:47it's also democratization of data.
17:48Because we have more open source satellite data now,
17:52it provides a check and balance for governance systems.
17:54The public can actually see what is happening.
17:56And even if it may not be recognized in national courts,
18:00it can put public pressure, the court of public opinion,
18:04consumer pressure becomes important here.
18:06So in the past, it's definitely been important in, like I said,
18:10with the awareness, pushing companies to be more careful.
18:14And this has resulted definitely in much less intentional fires.
18:19And we see now that is the situation, we have less intentional fires.
18:23But like I said, the conditions on the ground still makes it a problem of just being fire prone.
18:29Another proposal being discussed now is a sustainable haze fund.
18:34What are your thoughts on this?
18:36Do you think that carbon markets or climate finance is a way out of this?
18:40Or going back to this point of a sustainable haze fund,
18:44who should even be funding this in the first place and thus taking responsibility?
18:48Does this work in a setting or a context such as in Southeast Asia,
18:53where there's a lot of saving face and shaming culture associated with it?
19:00Yeah, so ASEAN has launched something called the ASEAN Investment Framework
19:04for haze-free sustainable land management.
19:06And this will look into things like possible carbon projects and all that.
19:10But again, it's in a very early stage.
19:13It depends very much on public funds as well.
19:17That means, sorry, private funds as well.
19:19So the willingness of, let's say, companies who wants to get involved,
19:23who wants to do something in the form of CSR and stuff like that,
19:26to actually put some money towards it.
19:28So I would say this is something still in development.
19:30But I do hope that there will be some positive outcome of this.
19:34There is actually a regional haze fund that is funded by national governments as well
19:40at the ASEAN level.
19:41But this is very small.
19:43It has been used for things like supporting research and stuff like that.
19:46So money funding is definitely an issue and it's definitely a way forward if we can resolve it.
19:54But in terms of, you know, getting companies more interested in investing what needs to be invested,
20:01at the moment, it is still an issue of companies wanting to pass on sustainability costs to consumers.
20:08So I think that one important angle is also to show companies that consumers are prepared
20:17to bear some additional costs for sustainability.
20:19So if consumers are truly interested in sustainability in a haze-free ASEAN,
20:25then there should be a push towards supporting, with your wallet,
20:30more companies that are more visibly careful about the climate and all that.
20:35And actually, for things like palm oil and pulp and paper, it may not be like a huge amount.
20:40It may be just a few cents because in a lot of items, palm oil is just a really tiny,
20:46tiny percentage of the ingredients.
20:49There might be an additional burden to consumers, but it should be something that we are prepared to bear.
20:56Drawing on everything that we've discussed, various mechanisms and solutions, potential solutions to this,
21:02what would you say ideally would be the biggest investment that we should make today
21:08if we want to see, you know, actual solutions or if we want fewer haze crises in the next 5
21:15to 10 years to come?
21:16So at the ASEAN level, I think the biggest investment or the biggest change that is needed
21:21is actually getting real science-based decision-making into the picture.
21:27So like what you said, currently a lot of the decisions are taken on a diplomatic value
21:33or a political value, right?
21:35Taken by people or representatives that have the national interest of certain countries at heart.
21:41But what we are lacking is a scientific committee, for example, to validate haze data
21:48so we won't have arguments about which country's data is more correct,
21:52to decide on actually when we need to activate response.
21:55These kind of things should not be political decisions, it should be scientific decisions.
21:59So I really hope that moving forward, ASEAN will look more into this importance of science-based decision-making
22:06and try to push governments to agree to this.
22:10Of course, it's difficult in the sort of ASEAN culture, but I think this is very much needed
22:15and it has been applied elsewhere in the world.
22:17So for example, like with the Montreal Protocol and all that,
22:20so there are case studies that we can look at that has worked pretty well
22:24that I hope that can be implemented here.
22:27Pushing governments to work even harder at this,
22:30do you think the missing part in this equation is this lack of an enforcement mechanism,
22:36these punitive measures that you mentioned, do you think that this goes back to the sort of existential question
22:42that ASEAN must face about its central stance on non-interference?
22:48Do you think that this can be doable in a haze context?
22:52Yeah, so a lot of this, I think we can draw parallels with the existence of ASEAN or the reason
22:59why ASEAN exists.
23:00So one of the things, like you say, non-interference, indeed there is an idea that, you know,
23:06we have to be careful, we do not want to offend, we do not want to disturb our neighbours.
23:11So there's always this sort of looming threat.
23:13If we do say something, our neighbours might say that we are interfering and so on and so forth.
23:19So that always constrains what is possible politically.
23:23But if you do think about it, haze, in a way, if haze is being exported across borders,
23:28it is already, in a way, interfering in your neighbouring countries.
23:32So if you look at it that way, then, you know, it's a more realistic, more mature way of looking
23:37at this principle of non-interference.
23:39But I also think it comes back to another key tenet of ASEAN, which is to support economic growth.
23:45So I think what it tells us, why haven't we been able to resolve haze in these decades,
23:51is that we are still struggling after all these years, even with things like sustainable development and all that,
23:56to really balance between economic priorities and society and the environment.
24:01At the end of the day, the priorities, sadly, sometimes still fall on the side of economics.
24:09There is a way to balance them both, but I believe that governments and even ASEAN is finding it still
24:16very difficult.
24:18Plenty more we'd like to discuss, but that is all the time that we have today.
24:21Thank you so much to Associate Professor Dr. Halina Baki from the Department of International and Strategic Studies,
24:26Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences at University of Malaya,
24:30sharing crucial insights on how we can address the, you know, evergreen issue of haze,
24:38you know, perhaps not looking at it just seasonally or responding to it when it actually happens,
24:43but perhaps, hopefully, we can continue this conversation even after the haze has been resolved in the days to come,
24:50hopefully.
24:50Thank you once again to Dr. Halina.
24:52That is all on Awani Global this week.
24:54We'll catch you next time.
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