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00:09Hello, Talasur English presents a new episode of China Now, Hawaii Media's production that showcases the culture, technology and politics
00:18of the Asian giant.
00:19In this first segment, China Currents take a deep dive into the week's top studies. From the dropping of criminal
00:25cases in China by 12.8% in 2025, reaching its lowest level in the century, and China's initiatives to
00:33combat online crimes, the Washington Department of Homeland Security added 43 Chinese entities to the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act
00:42over allegations of forced labor in Xinjiang. Let's see.
00:55One of the first things many foreign visitors now notice about China is not the high-speed rail or the
01:01skyline. It is how ordinary safety feels. People walk home late at night, shops stay open after midnight, a forgotten
01:08phone often remains where its owner left it. This is not true everywhere, and it should not be treated as
01:14something that simply happens by itself.
01:16In 2025, the number of criminal cases filed by Chinese police fell by 12.8%, reaching its lowest level this
01:24century. Homicides also fell to a historic low. In the first half of 2026, criminal cases dropped another 16.5%.
01:32Theft, robbery, and fraud cases were also down nearly 39%. That is real progress. It deserves to be acknowledged plainly.
01:41But it also makes China's latest move look strange.
01:45In July, China launched another nationwide campaign against organized crime, scheduled to run for a year. Why launch a major
01:53crackdown when crime is already falling so fast?
01:56Because crime has changed address. The old image of organized crime is physical. Men controlling a market, collecting protection money,
02:04occupying territory, or threatening shopkeepers.
02:07But a modern gang does not always need a street corner. It needs accounts, personal data, payment channels, and a
02:15platform willing to look the other way.
02:17It does not have to break your window. It can steal your contact list and bombard your family.
02:22It can use an illegal lending app to trap you in debt, then harass your employer when you cannot pay.
02:27It can flood a small business with threats and false accusations. It can steal someone's identity, lock a company's files,
02:35or blackmail a victim with intimate material.
02:38The violence has not disappeared. It has been outsourced to the screen.
02:43And this is emphatically not a uniquely Chinese problem.
02:47In the United States, for example, the FBI received almost 3,000 internet crime complaints every day in 2025.
02:54Reported losses exceeded $20 billion. Cyber-enabled fraud accounted for 85% of that money.
03:02Europol now describes fraud as the fastest growing area of organized crime in Europe.
03:08Its latest assessments warn that criminal networks increasingly buy stolen data, rent digital infrastructure, and purchase specialized services from one
03:17another.
03:18The scammer contacting you may be in one country. The stolen data may come from another.
03:23The bank account may be in a third. The money may then pass through several more jurisdictions before anyone even
03:30opens a case.
03:31We've built a global economy in which money and data can cross borders in seconds.
03:36But when a victim asks for help, police requests, court orders, and bank investigations can still take weeks.
03:42That gap is where the new criminal economy lives.
03:46So the important thing about China's campaign is not that China has discovered online fraud.
03:51Every government knows it exists.
03:53The difference is the kind of response China is attempting.
03:56The campaign treats online extortion, abusive debt collection, and organized harassment not as isolated disputes between individual users, but as
04:05industries.
04:06It aims to follow the entire chain.
04:08The theft of personal information, the software used to automate abuse, the networks of fake accounts, the channels that direct
04:15victims toward scammers, and the financial system that launders the proceeds.
04:20Authorities have been told to tighten oversight of online platforms, telecommunication companies, and banks.
04:26They will trace and seize criminal assets.
04:29Difficult cases can be moved across jurisdictions or placed under higher-level supervision.
04:34Officials who protect criminal groups, the so-called protective umbrellas, behind them are also targets.
04:41That coordination matters.
04:42Too often, victims elsewhere encounter a system designed to pass responsibility around.
04:48The police say the platform holds the evidence.
04:50The platform sends an automated response.
04:53The bank says the transfer has already been cleared.
04:56The telecommunications companies say the number was registered overseas.
05:00Every institution may have followed its own procedure, but the criminal keeps the money.
05:06China's approach is to make the institutions move together.
05:09Recognizing that the problem has changed, mobilizing different parts of the state, imposing responsibilities on powerful companies,
05:16following the money, and investigating the people who allow criminal networks to survive.
05:21Few governments attempt this with the same national scale and institutional synchronization.
05:26And there are already signs that sustained enforcement can make a difference.
05:30In the first half of 2026, the number of telecom and online fraud cases filed by Chinese police fell by
05:3615.6%.
05:38By June, monthly cases had declined year-on-year for nine consecutive months.
05:43Before this latest campaign even began, police had solved 48,000 economic and financial crime cases during the first half
05:50of the year
05:51and recovered more than 12 billion yuan, around $1.8 billion in losses.
05:56These numbers are not proof that every tactic works, nor should a national campaign receive a blank check.
06:03Chinese authorities themselves have said that the campaign must respect the presumption of innocence,
06:08protect the rights of defendants and lawyers, and avoid labeling conduct as organized crime when it does not meet the
06:14legal definition.
06:15But that caution should not become an excuse for inaction.
06:19Governments do not have to copy every Chinese enforcement tool.
06:23They do have to stop treating organized online crime as an unavoidable cost of modern life.
06:29The safe city cannot end at the curb.
06:32If people can walk down the street without fear, but can still be hunted through their phones, have their savings
06:38stolen,
06:38or see their families terrorized by anonymous accounts, public security remains unfinished.
06:44China is not free of these crimes.
06:46That is precisely why it has launched this campaign.
06:49But it is demonstrating something much of the world appears to have forgotten.
06:54A government can treat online fraud and intimidation as organized crime rather than an unfortunate fact of digital life.
07:02Crime has adapted.
07:04Government must adapt faster.
07:06Across the Pacific, Washington was also making moves this week.
07:09On July 31st, the Department of Homeland Security added 43 Chinese entities to the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act, or
07:17UFOPA entity list,
07:18over allegations of forced labor in Xinjiang.
07:21The additions took effect on August 3rd.
07:24The list has now grown from 144 entities to 187, nearly a 30% increase,
07:30and the largest expansion since the law was enacted in late 2021.
07:34The policy works differently from a typical trade ban.
07:37Under the UFOPA, goods linked to Xinjiang or companies on the list are presumed to involve forced labor.
07:43If an importer wants to buy these goods in the United States,
07:46it has to provide clear and convincing evidence that they were not produced using forced labor.
07:51In other words, the importer has to prove the supply chain is clean rather than waiting for the United States
07:57government to prove that it isn't.
07:59Challenging that presumption has also proved difficult in practice.
08:03Companies can face blocked shipments, additional scrutiny, and higher costs for tracing and documenting their supply chains.
08:10The latest additions cover a surprisingly broad range of industries including aluminum,
08:15apparel, copper, cotton, tomatoes, and downstream products as well as food, agriculture, and other manufacturing.
08:21The reasons for the listings are not all the same.
08:25Four companies were accused of helping the Xinjiang government recruit, transfer, and resettle ethnic minority workers.
08:31The other 41 were linked to sourcing raw materials from Xinjiang or to government-backed labor programs,
08:36including poverty alleviation and assistance programs.
08:39That brings the focus beyond individual companies and onto their links with Xinjiang.
08:44For businesses, that can create a practical dilemma.
08:48Where did the raw materials come from?
08:50Can every step of the supply chain be documented?
08:52And if working with a particular Chinese supplier carries greater compliance and trade risks, is it still worth doing?
08:59The industries caught up in the latest expansion are also industries where China has built large and deeply integrated supply
09:05chains.
09:06So the effects of the UFOPA can extend beyond a single shipment or company.
09:10They can shape decisions about which suppliers American businesses are willing to work with in the first place.
09:15The timing of the announcement was notable as well.
09:18On July 30th, Chinese and U.S. officials overseeing economic and trade negotiations held a video call.
09:25Both sides described the discussion as candid, in-depth, and constructive, with a focus on keeping economic and trade relations
09:32stable.
09:32The next day, Washington announced the expended list.
09:36China did not wait long to respond.
09:38On the 5th of August, Beijing announced a series of countermeasures in response to the latest U.S. restrictions.
09:44The Ministry of Commerce placed six U.S. entities on China's countersanctions list,
09:49accusing them of assisting or supporting U.S. sanctions related to Xinjiang.
09:53A seventh U.S. entity was separately sanctioned for assisting the Federal Communications Commission with measures targeting Chinese companies.
10:00Beijing also tightened export controls on drones and related technologies while launching a national security investigation into imports of printing
10:08and copying equipment.
10:10For Beijing, the message was straightforward.
10:13If Washington continues to use trade and supply, chain restrictions to pressure Chinese companies.
10:18China has tools of its own to respond.
10:20And this is where the UFLPA dispute becomes bigger than the 43 companies just added to the list.
10:25It is becoming part of a broader cycle of restrictions and countermeasures between the world's two largest economies.
10:33Okay, away from trade, let's talk energy.
10:36Global nuclear power generation reached a new record in 2025.
10:39According to a Forbes analysis published on August 2nd, nuclear plants around the world produced 2,845 terawatt hours of
10:47electricity last year, up 1.3% and slightly above the previous record set in 2006.
10:54But the global picture is less impressive over the longer term.
10:58Nuclear generation has grown by only about 1.5% in total over the past 19 years.
11:03For much of the world, the industry has barely moved.
11:06China tells a very different story.
11:08Over the past decade, China's nuclear power generation has climbed from 171 terawatt hours to 485 terawatt hours, an increase
11:17of roughly 314 terawatt hours.
11:20The world as a whole added only about 270 terawatt hours over the same period.
11:27China's growth alone therefore exceeded the global net increase, helping offset falling nuclear output in Europe and other regions.
11:34The United States remains the world's largest nuclear power producer at 826 terawatt hours, but its output has stayed broadly
11:42flat over the past decade.
11:44China is now second at 485 terawatt hours.
11:48If the current pace continues, China could overtake the United States within five years and become the world's largest producer
11:54of nuclear power.
11:55Forbes' conclusion is striking.
11:57The new global record does not necessarily signal a broad nuclear revival.
12:02Much of the growth is coming from China.
12:04And finally, our last story.
12:07On July 31st, a cultural program called 2026 China Charm Lingnan Culture meets Southern Highlands opened at Butuka Academy at
12:15Port Morris Bay.
12:16The event was organized by the Guangdong Provincial Government Information Office.
12:20The timing is significant.
12:21This year makes 50 years of diplomatic relations between China and Papua New Guinea, as well as the APEC China
12:28year.
12:29More than 600 people attended, including Papua New Guinea's foreign affairs minister, the governor of the National Capital District, Chinese
12:36ambassador Yang Xiaoguang, representatives of Chinese companies, members of the Chinese community, and teachers and students from the Butuka Academy.
12:44The Guangdong delegation brought a mix of traditional culture and modern products to the event.
12:49There are performances of Cantonese opera, martial arts, and traditional puppetry, along with displays of traditional crafts, local food, and
12:58cultural merchandise.
12:59The performances drew an enthusiastic response from the audience.
13:02Students at Butuka Academy called it the highest-profile artistic event the school has hosted since it was founded.
13:09The event also featured a Guangzhou products exhibition showcasing technology made in Guangdong, including AI glasses and exoskeleton robots.
13:18The Papua New Guinea's foreign affairs minister praised the friendship between the two countries and reaffirmed the country's commitment to
13:25the one China principle.
13:26Chinese ambassador Yang Xiaoguang said the warm response reflected the strong local interest in Chinese culture.
13:33National Capital District Governor Tachenko also said he would attend the APEC summit in Shenzhen alongside the prime minister.
13:40That's it for this week's China Current. See you next time.
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17:06Discussing comunitas, governance and development.
17:10Let's have a look.
17:23It's great to have you here.
17:26The purpose of the summer school is to encourage Global South face-to-face exchange, have Chinese students mixed with
17:32Global South students or international students and having Chinese scholars as well as practitioners mixed together with the international practitioners
17:43and scholars.
17:43So that we could really encourage a comprehensive, organic exchange of information to facilitate the spirit of South-South collaboration.
17:57So that's a brief introduction on my side.
18:01Tell us who you are and why are you coming over to China?
18:05What brings you here?
18:06Thank you so much.
18:07That's a very good question.
18:09We start with who I am first.
18:11My name is Eugene Wimanna.
18:14And I'm currently in charge of Development Coordination and Communications and Advocacy in the Office of the UN Resident Coordinator
18:22in Rwanda.
18:23But before that, I was a journalist for so many years.
18:27For how long?
18:28I mean, more than 10 years.
18:30Oh my.
18:30You don't look like you have a 10-year background on.
18:33Well, I mean, I was actually used to be the one asking the questions.
18:39No, no.
18:41I was used to being asked.
18:45Yeah.
18:46So I worked first.
18:48I studied first with the Rwanda's first private TV station as a news anchor.
18:52And then moved to the Voice of America covering the Great Lakes region and African general.
18:59And then led to Turkish radio television.
19:01It's called TRT World.
19:03And then European Press Agency.
19:06And then briefly, Xinhuan News Agency.
19:09Oh, really?
19:10Yes.
19:10When was that?
19:11When was that?
19:132018, I believe.
19:15Oh, gosh.
19:15Yes.
19:16Yeah, yeah.
19:16Yeah.
19:17So that's who I am.
19:19And I'm very happy to be here.
19:22It takes me back to your question.
19:24Why am I here?
19:24Yeah, why are you here?
19:25Well.
19:26Except that we both.
19:27Except this.
19:28Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:28To answer that, it's actually, I have a story.
19:31Yeah.
19:31You know, the first time I saw a Chinese person in my life, the very first time was when I
19:37was seven years old in my village.
19:40Oh, wow.
19:41You know, Rwanda is very hilly.
19:43You've been there.
19:44Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:45You saw the hills.
19:46Yeah, yeah.
19:46A lot of hills.
19:47And that makes it very challenging and difficult for engineers to build roads.
19:53So we rely heavily on Chinese engineers to build roads in Rwanda and, you know, across
20:01parts of the country.
20:03And I was born in the western part of Rwanda.
20:06And, you know, close to the lake.
20:09Yes, yes, close to the lake and DR Congo and Burundi.
20:13Yeah, yeah.
20:14Actually, we touch on two countries, DR Congo and Burundi.
20:19And building roads in my country is very difficult because of the steep slopes of mountains.
20:24And Chinese engineers, I don't know how they do it, but they build very, very good roads.
20:30And, you know, one morning, boom.
20:33There was a Chinese face.
20:34Yes.
20:35A couple of them.
20:36I saw them and they were like, okay.
20:38Ni hao, ni hao.
20:40We came to know that ni hao means, I believe, hi.
20:44Yeah, yeah.
20:44Or hello.
20:44Exactly, yeah.
20:45And then they were very friendly.
20:47You know, we used to play football back then.
20:50Oh, really?
20:50Yes.
20:51And because, like I mentioned, it was a very tough job to build, tough work to build a road.
20:57So they had to camp for some days to move, maybe to finish, maybe a kilometer.
21:03It was really, very tough at that time because it was, I believe, in the rainy season.
21:08So it was very challenging.
21:10Oh.
21:10And then they used to live on site.
21:13On site.
21:14Within the village.
21:15Yes.
21:16And then I remember seeing them eating rice with two sticks, chopsticks, right?
21:23Yeah, yeah.
21:23I mean, that was the first time to see a Chinese man and the way they live.
21:28And then later, because I did my university in town, in the capital city, Kigali, in the
21:33School of Journalism and Communication.
21:35And then...
21:35There is only one university in Rwanda, right?
21:39So one major university.
21:40Not one.
21:41The public university is one.
21:43Sorry.
21:43Yeah.
21:43But there are others.
21:44So you're in the public university.
21:46Public university.
21:46The only School of Journalism and Communication in Rwanda.
21:50And then I kept seeing them building roads, skyscrapers, tall buildings, and days and nights.
21:59I'm like, these guys, they never sleep.
22:02I mean, they're walking every time.
22:05And at that particular moment, I was like, I have to go to China.
22:09Right.
22:10I don't know when, but I have to go to China.
22:12Yeah.
22:13And then later, I continued doing my life.
22:15I sort of forgot about it.
22:17And then when I started my PhD in peace, development and governance, I developed an interest, really,
22:27how China did it, lifting more than 250 million dollars of poverty.
22:32That's remarkable.
22:33And, all right.
22:36You know, when we spoke, because I was going to have my annual leave.
22:41I mean, my own leave, actually.
22:42That's why.
22:43Your own leave.
22:43Yeah, that's why.
22:43That's why you can spend a month here.
22:45Yes, that's why I can spend my month, yeah.
22:47I said, I have to go.
22:49Yeah.
22:49And then it turned out that there is this summer school at Fudan University, a very prestigious
22:56university in the world.
22:58Founded, I believe, in 1905, right?
23:0105, there you go.
23:02Yes, yes, 1905.
23:03Yes.
23:03So, I said, I wouldn't miss it for the world.
23:07And then another thing is that I have meetings with my partners, because, like I mentioned,
23:12I also established a media house.
23:14Yes.
23:15And I'm establishing some...
23:17Which is a wonderful initiative, right?
23:19Yes.
23:19I think so.
23:20And one of the things I'm trying to do here in China, you know, talking to my business partners,
23:26is to exchange content.
23:28Yeah.
23:28For example, what we...
23:31The interviews you conduct, we record in Rwanda.
23:33Yeah.
23:33Can we send them here in Shanghai?
23:35Yeah.
23:36And publish them on Chinese platforms.
23:38And vice versa.
23:39What you have, you send it to Rwanda.
23:41Yeah.
23:42Because that's the Global South to me.
23:43That's a South cooperation to me.
23:45Because I believe that cooperation is very important.
23:50Because China is doing a lot of things in Africa.
23:53But unfortunately, their visibility is not very high.
23:57The visibility of what you are doing.
23:59I think because you are humble.
24:01You are very humble, I think, in nature.
24:02But the visibility you are doing a lot, the support, but the visibility is not there.
24:08That's my understanding.
24:10And so I think that cooperation can really help unlock a lot of potential in terms of
24:17enhancing the visibility of the Chinese support to Africa.
24:22Because there is misinformation, disinformation, negative campaign about your support in Africa.
24:30Sorry, I'm saying China is supporting Africa.
24:33So I think that cooperation in terms of media can also be very important.
24:37And yeah, so in a nutshell, that's why I'm here.
24:41I mean, absolutely.
24:42There are loads of things that in your story that personally, both personally as well as academically,
24:49I'm very, very interested in.
24:51I worked on, or for a period of time, I worked on Afro-Asian Solidarity Movement in the 1950s and
24:5960s.
24:59And the story that you told about your encounter with the Chinese railway workers kind of reminds me of what
25:08China was doing in the 1970s in Tanzania, the Tanzan Railway.
25:13And there is a cross-talk, a comedy show that portrays this specific type of connection, people-to-people connection.
25:24They say the reason why there is a people-to-people connection is because the Chinese engineers live together with
25:32the local engineers and workers.
25:33They eat together, they work together, and they sleep together, like in a tent.
25:39So they collectively build towards a common future.
25:44That's what inspires me.
25:47It's not just about economic development.
25:48It's not just about providing any sort of infrastructure support.
25:53It's about doing one thing together to build a common future together.
25:59And henceforth, coming from that, we are right now actively promoting an idea called chair development.
26:09Because we believe development shouldn't be something from top down.
26:14Development should be about people and for the people and by the people.
26:18People from different communities, of course, they have different needs and concerns.
26:21We have to take that into consideration.
26:23But overall, development should be a collective initiative for the community as well as for humankind in general.
26:32So that's one.
26:34And secondly, I absolutely agree the importance of cultural communication, people-to-people communication, to facilitate a cultural exchange.
26:44That is not something new.
26:46It's the 1950s, the Pendung Conference, talks about South South cooperation.
26:51One of them is the cooperation of journalism.
26:54We should have the Global South in general, or each individual country across the world, they should have their own
27:02ability to tell their own story.
27:05And then that story, not only just by telling the story, it's about having people hearing them, the dissemination network,
27:13the possible channels that links you, your content, to the Chinese audience, and also the Chinese audience content to you.
27:25But it's not only that.
27:27I can't really just produce something that's tailored towards the Chinese interests and then dumped it on you, right?
27:34It has to be an organic process.
27:36We need to communicate with each other.
27:38So that's why I think it's our pleasure to have you here.
27:43Yeah, yeah.
27:44The pleasure is mine.
27:46You know, two points.
27:47Number one, what you mentioned about countries cooperating and development.
27:53Yeah.
27:54I strongly agree with what former president of Tanzania said, Marimu Jujia Sinere.
28:00He said, development is not just things, but the quality of people's lives in its totality.
28:08Yeah, exactly.
28:08And that's something I saw when I landed in Guangzhou.
28:11So I think the cooperation of countries in the Global South is very key because when they cooperate, their cooperation
28:21is based on the mutual respect.
28:24Shared history, shared experiences, and it's not really attached to a lot of conditions.
28:30You remember in our last call, I told you that, you know, some other partners, it's like giving you a
28:35shirt and telling you how to wear it.
28:38You know, so this cooperation in the Global South, I think, is very transformational.
28:43And, yeah, it's a good thing to do, yeah.
28:47Yeah.
28:47And something that you said earlier before our conversation, like we chat around, you mentioned that the difference between South
28:57-South cooperation and the existing model of sort of globalization is that existing globalization cause brain drain to certain areas,
29:07particularly the Global South in general.
29:08They aspire to live a better life somewhere else, not to use their talent and their capability to build their
29:16own home country, whereas South-South cooperation really emphasized on building your sort of, to make your community better.
29:25And you mentioned that your vision, your aspiration is to change Rwanda as well as Africa as an aspirable, livable,
29:36enjoyable place for the Africans to live on.
29:39I mean, that's something I completely share.
29:43How would you achieve that goal?
29:45Well, the company is established, it's recorded in Rwanda, but it's continental.
29:53It's going to cover all 55 countries in Africa, and we want to tell success stories from each African country.
30:02I will give you an example.
30:04Right now, what we know about Somalia, for example, when someone tells you, I'm in Mogadishu, you would be like,
30:14be careful.
30:14You know, because we think any moment, any second, a bomb can blow.
30:19Yeah.
30:19That's what we know, right?
30:20Because that's what we read.
30:23And also, I've seen loads of Somalian refugees in Ethiopia.
30:28That's my encounter of Somalia.
30:30Uh-huh.
30:31So what we want to do as AE News is to try and go there.
30:36Yeah.
30:36We have, we have correspondents in each African countries, each country.
30:41And then we go to Mogadishu.
30:43We meet ex who comes, who is an American citizen, for example, and who's running the company.
30:50Say, why are you here?
30:52Oh, yeah.
30:53I've seen the company.
30:54How are you doing?
30:55How is the company doing?
30:56And then the guy, we go like, I mean, my company is thriving.
30:59And then he will say, how?
31:01What do you know about Somalia is that nothing works here?
31:03And then the guy will tell us another story.
31:07And then if those stories are told, eventually, it will take time, obviously.
31:13Eventually, the continent, the narrative of the continent will change.
31:18So it is really our modest contribution to a change of that.
31:21Because one of the things colonization did is making the West the reference point of every aspect of life.
31:32But what you have in China, which is why China is a very important partner,
31:36China is that China is a 5,000-odd civilization, which never broke.
31:43Not a lot like Egypt or Greek civilizations.
31:46And in China, China has its own reference points on all aspects.
31:53If it's about families, you can trace back in your history what our history talks about families.
31:59If it's political governance, if it's every aspect of life,
32:03you can look into China and find a solution.
32:06Because you've had stronger dynasties, you've had weak dynasties,
32:10you have your own history.
32:12And that's something when China cooperates with other countries in the Global South,
32:17I think that's something very important to enhance the inherent important systems
32:24of countries in the Global South.
32:26Yeah, that's true.
32:27But I think I really appreciate you saying that from my perspective.
32:34Yes, we shouldn't see China as broken small pieces, right?
32:39China is China because it has a long historical continuation.
32:43It has its own problems.
32:45It has its own conflicts.
32:47But seeing it from a long durée, you see China as a story from point A to point B,
32:55an evolving development story.
32:58And that's very important.
32:59And secondly, I cherish what you've said that because of the long history,
33:04there are loads of things that we can use as a referencing point.
33:07But the difference is it's only just a reference point.
33:12It's not necessarily a textbook that everybody should follow.
33:15China doesn't really argue that way.
33:18In fact, China really strongly emphasised on the importance of mutual learning
33:23and then using Chinese experience as a referencing point
33:27so that we could find echoing practices all across the Global South.
33:33For example, when I was in Rwanda,
33:35I learned quite a lot from Rwandans post-1994 experiences
33:41and loads of the practices, indigenous practices, homegrown solutions,
33:46and loads of the specifics of the homegrown solutions resonates
33:50with my own understanding of Chinese sort of social transformation experiences.
33:56Like you have to put the community first.
33:59You would have to work together to have community support.
34:04I love the stories of the state provides you with a cow,
34:08but the cow milk belongs to the whole sort of community.
34:11You would have to self-help.
34:13The state provides you with the means,
34:15but you will have to develop the self-help agencies across the community by yourself.
34:21And this is wonderful.
34:21In those stories, I find extremely important stories that echoing each other,
34:28not necessarily by design, we coordinate,
34:32but naturally grows from below and we echo each other.
34:36Yeah, you are right.
34:37Rwanda is a remarkable country,
34:39and a country which was shattered by the genocide.
34:42In 1947, the Tutsi, 32 years ago.
34:46And maybe, forgive your status,
34:48if you have statistics, you or our audience, you understand.
34:51This is a country where, in 1994,
34:55the life expectancy was 26 years.
34:57So if you are 26, you are really...
35:00How old are you?
35:01Sorry.
35:02I'm 32.
35:03Oh, there you go.
35:04Yes.
35:05So, you know, and now, the life expectancy is 69.9.
35:09Yeah, wow.
35:10And this is a country which...
35:12Within 30 years.
35:1332 years.
35:14This is a country which the nominal GDP was 102 million years' dollars.
35:21Now it's 17.2 billion years' dollars.
35:25This is a country that really resolved to homegrown solutions.
35:31Because, if you took, for example,
35:33one of the homegrown solutions you have,
35:34like Gachacha courts, for example.
35:37I mean, after the genocide,
35:39you couldn't do it to the conventional courts.
35:42Judges were killed.
35:44You know, it was chaos everywhere.
35:46But Gachacha managed to try 1.9 million cases in a record time.
35:52And it's not only about trial, it's reconciliation.
35:55Reconciliation.
35:56That part is very important.
35:58Yeah, exactly.
35:58And so if you were...
36:00Because my father was killed in genocide.
36:03And my father was killed...
36:07I was going to be his firstborn.
36:08He was very young.
36:09He was 27 years old.
36:12And, you know, he left me,
36:15no matter the one, everything that was like this.
36:19In his last moments, really,
36:21what mattered to him,
36:23that's what I tried to imagine is,
36:25if my son...
36:26If I was going to be a son or a daughter,
36:29but if my child leaves,
36:31is this country going to bounce back?
36:34I think if you are being killed in the genocide,
36:38that's the question you would ask yourself.
36:40But here we are.
36:42Rwanda has a beacon of hope.
36:44And I think the story of Rwanda is very remarkable.
36:47And it can really help other countries
36:51that are still struggling,
36:52whether in conflict or post-conflict development.
36:56And now, like I told you,
36:58Rwanda is extending support to other countries.
37:01In Mozambique, in South Africa, in Belvedere.
37:04Who knew that would happen?
37:06And so it takes leadership,
37:09it takes strong leadership,
37:11because leadership is about individuals,
37:14but governance is about institutions.
37:16So it takes both the leaders, institutions,
37:19and the people as well.
37:20Yeah, the fundamental object of governance,
37:24of leadership, is towards people.
37:26Exactly.
37:27And the people should become their own leader.
37:30Yes, that's true,
37:32because the success of the leader is,
37:34they say,
37:35the success of the leader
37:36is to create more leaders,
37:37not followers.
37:39Oh, Francis said that too.
37:41Yeah, yeah, because,
37:41ah, really.
37:42Yeah, yeah.
37:42Because followers is about popularity,
37:44and popularity can be bought.
37:46Yeah.
37:46But.
37:47Exactly.
37:47There's one business man in my country
37:50who says that,
37:51before he promotes you in a team,
37:54he has to see that you have the capacity
37:57to train your replacement.
37:58Yeah, yeah.
37:59And before he sees that,
38:01he cannot give you a promotion,
38:02because where else,
38:03when you leave your position,
38:04it will be gone.
38:06Yeah.
38:06It's not a personal shot.
38:08So for you to be a leader,
38:09really,
38:09you have to be able to train others
38:12to make more leaders
38:13out of your leadership style.
38:15I mean, that's very important,
38:17and I think it has,
38:19I mean,
38:19I really appreciate you sharing
38:22your personal story
38:23of post-genocide,
38:24and then this resonates with me,
38:27Chinese, as a Chinese,
38:28because Chinese usually,
38:30they,
38:30we think intergenerationally,
38:33right?
38:33My generation suffers,
38:34so the next generation,
38:36could have a better future.
38:38And this generation justice,
38:40this intergeneration justice,
38:42and intergenerational way
38:43of thinking human life,
38:45I think is very,
38:46very important,
38:47because it creates longevity
38:48and continuation.
38:50And then,
38:51more importantly,
38:52it creates hope for the future,
38:53and not sort of a vague,
38:58an elusive kind of a hope,
39:00a hope that transcends
39:02into real practices.
39:05Sort of,
39:05in order to achieve that better future,
39:07you want to really have to work hard
39:09in your life,
39:10so that your next generation
39:11will be in a better place.
39:14That's why.
39:14I think there is,
39:15there is a famous saying,
39:16tough times create tough people.
39:18Yeah.
39:19Tough people create easy times.
39:21Yeah.
39:21Easy times create weak people.
39:23Oh.
39:23And it goes on,
39:25on and on.
39:26I think,
39:27now the challenge
39:28is to break that cycle.
39:29Yeah.
39:30How can we make sure
39:31that this development
39:32is sustainable,
39:34and our next generations
39:36live better,
39:38but they don't create
39:39bad things to be imagined.
39:42I think it's constant,
39:42right?
39:43Yeah.
39:43Because you can't imagine
39:45a world that only one group
39:47of people lives a better life,
39:49right?
39:49A true,
39:51sustainable future
39:54should be everyone
39:55lives in a better,
39:58lives a better life
39:59than their previous generation.
40:01Exactly.
40:01Exactly.
40:02Which is why I think
40:04South-South cooperation
40:05is very important.
40:06Absolutely.
40:07And the Global South,
40:09I mean,
40:10this takes me to the story.
40:12Yesterday,
40:13my colleagues
40:14were moving around Shanghai,
40:16and they were saying,
40:17when we came to China,
40:18we didn't see Global South.
40:20This is a very developed world.
40:22Yeah.
40:22And then,
40:23I was telling them,
40:24you know what,
40:25what makes a country
40:27a member of Global South
40:28is not,
40:29number one,
40:30geography,
40:30because if geography counts,
40:33Australia would be
40:34in the Global South.
40:35It's not.
40:35It's a Global North.
40:37And then,
40:37number two,
40:38it's not just poverty,
40:40because countries
40:41in the Global South
40:42share
40:44key similar
40:45historical experiences.
40:47Number one,
40:47it's going to be
40:48colonization
40:49or imperial dominance.
40:51Or semi-colonization.
40:52Semi-colonization.
40:53I was coming to that,
40:54especially in China.
40:56And then,
40:57number three,
40:58it's about
40:58an equal integration
41:00in the global economy.
41:02Number four,
41:03it's about marginalization
41:04in the global structure,
41:06global institutions.
41:08Economic,
41:08institutional,
41:09cultural.
41:10and then finally,
41:13it's not in a particular order,
41:14but finally,
41:15it could be underdevelopment
41:16or uneven development.
41:19And when you look
41:20at these countries,
41:22well,
41:23they cannot be
41:24at the same level.
41:25That's not possible.
41:26But those things
41:28that share,
41:29those are very important
41:30fundamentals
41:31to cooperate,
41:32to understand each other
41:34and for the events.
41:35because when you look
41:37at how,
41:37you know,
41:38the time
41:38Global South
41:40developed,
41:41I could say
41:42that it went
41:43through four stages,
41:44really,
41:45epistemologically.
41:47It starts
41:48with the colonialism,
41:511575,
41:53and then,
41:54which created
41:54two parts,
41:55those who were colonizing,
41:57colonial masters,
41:58and they colonized.
41:59And it went
42:01to now
42:02de-colonization,
42:04I mean,
42:06which could be
42:07from 1945
42:08to 1975,
42:091975.
42:10And then,
42:12at this particular point,
42:13those countries,
42:14I think,
42:15asked themselves
42:16three different questions.
42:18Number one,
42:19how do we develop?
42:20Number two,
42:21do we emulate
42:22our colonial masters?
42:24Or,
42:24do we chart
42:25our own path?
42:26Exactly.
42:27And I think
42:27those three questions
42:28were very fundamental.
42:29And I don't think,
42:31I think countries
42:32are still figuring
42:33that part out.
42:34Of course.
42:34What future
42:35do you aspire to?
42:36So it's not
42:38an instant coffee.
42:39No.
42:40It's not something
42:40that happens overnight.
42:42And arguably,
42:43the Global North,
42:43or at least
42:44a certain group
42:45of people
42:45in the Global North
42:46was trying to enforce
42:47an idea
42:48that there is
42:48no alternative
42:49but to go through
42:52either neoliberal
42:53or the Global North
42:54identified a way.
42:56But for the Global South,
42:58I think
42:58the strong aspiration
43:00is that
43:01we believe
43:01that there is
43:02an alternative.
43:03Yeah,
43:03yeah,
43:04there has to be
43:05an alternative.
43:06I mean,
43:08because context
43:10matters a lot.
43:11Exactly.
43:12Condition,
43:12context.
43:13Yes,
43:13yes.
43:14Because,
43:14I mean,
43:15if you import
43:17something
43:18from far,
43:19from this country,
43:20it doesn't necessarily
43:22really work.
43:23It won't work.
43:25Because you need
43:26something that
43:27you culturally
43:28understand,
43:30historically own,
43:32because you mentioned
43:33something very important
43:34that people are
43:35a very important
43:35part of the process.
43:37Yeah,
43:37exactly.
43:37Because whatever
43:39initiative,
43:40however smart
43:41it might be,
43:42there's no
43:43buying on the people.
43:44Yeah.
43:44It cannot succeed.
43:45Yeah.
43:46It cannot succeed.
43:46I mean,
43:47I was,
43:47in addition to,
43:49as a component
43:51in the shared
43:52development,
43:52I also want to
43:54emphasize
43:54or bring,
43:56emphasize an agenda
43:57called
43:57Bring the People Back.
43:59The study of politics,
44:00the study of comparative
44:01politics,
44:02governance,
44:03development,
44:04everything.
44:05We need to be
44:06fully aware
44:07that all of those
44:09study of human beings
44:10are the study
44:11of human beings,
44:12the study of,
44:13and they're not only
44:14the subject of study,
44:15but also they're the purpose
44:16of the study.
44:17That's true.
44:19People,
44:19I mean,
44:20people have to be
44:21at the center
44:23of everything,
44:24of planning,
44:25especially.
44:26Talking about planning,
44:28another important
44:29homegrown solution
44:30you have in Rwanda
44:31is called
44:32Imihi Go,
44:33or performance
44:34project.
44:35when I was in Rwanda
44:37this year,
44:39it correlates
44:41with the time
44:42when you have
44:43the big meeting
44:43where everybody
44:44needs to report
44:45up to the present
44:47in Mongolia.
44:48So,
44:49these performance
44:49contracts,
44:50it's very,
44:51very impressive.
44:52From the family,
44:53from the grassroots,
44:55family members
44:56sit together
44:56in a plan.
44:58From the family
44:59to the cell,
45:00to the cell,
45:01to the sector,
45:02from the sector
45:03to the district,
45:04up to the national level.
45:06That kind of participation
45:08from the grassroots level
45:09is very important
45:10because from that,
45:12the direction of travel
45:13is very clear
45:14which is why
45:15I think most countries
45:16get it wrong
45:18because people
45:19have money
45:20and some partners
45:22will always come
45:23with money
45:24but when they come
45:25with money
45:25and they tell you
45:27where to put it,
45:28they are disrupting
45:29your plan.
45:30So,
45:31you've got to have
45:32your sector's plans
45:33ready.
45:34If you are bringing
45:35your support,
45:36I am the one
45:36to tell you
45:37where to put it
45:38to support
45:38my overall goal
45:39because if that's
45:42not the case,
45:43we're going to have
45:45thousands more projects
45:46which are not
45:48really going to contribute
45:49Yeah, they're disseminating
45:50the limited resources.
45:52Yeah, to resources
45:52which are not really
45:53going to contribute
45:54to social and economic
45:55transformation of the country
45:56and I think
45:57that's where
45:58Rwanda got it right.
46:01I mean,
46:01it's a fine balance, right?
46:02So,
46:02there is a level
46:03of central planning
46:05but there is also
46:06a level of
46:07self-determination
46:08autonomy
46:09and as long as
46:11you are able
46:11to find this
46:12fine balance
46:12you will be able
46:13to have
46:14a relatively
46:15coordinated development
46:17and a similar thing
46:18is happening
46:20in China too.
46:21It's like China
46:21is now,
46:22we're now in the
46:2315th five-year plan period,
46:26right?
46:26The ideal
46:27five-year plan
46:28is exactly
46:32relatable
46:32to Rwanda's
46:34contract system,
46:36right?
46:37So,
46:37as grassroots
46:39as little
46:40institutions
46:42up to the
46:44governmental
46:45central level
46:46everybody needs
46:47to have a plan
46:48and sort of
46:49we need to
46:50coordinate,
46:52discuss,
46:53deliberate
46:54so that we
46:55could have
46:56a deliverable.
46:57I was watching
46:57a video
46:58on WeChat.
47:00Yeah.
47:01I'm liking WeChat.
47:02I got it
47:03a few minutes ago
47:04in Rwanda.
47:05Yeah.
47:06Yeah.
47:06But,
47:07you know,
47:07a friend of mine
47:08sent me a video
47:09in WeChat
47:09of a Colombian
47:11political commentator
47:13who said,
47:14here in China
47:15you have
47:15the dragon boat
47:17democracy.
47:18Dragon boat
47:19democracy?
47:20I like that.
47:20the way he explained
47:22the way he explained it
47:22is everyone
47:23is free
47:24to express
47:25his or her ideas
47:27but once
47:28the decision
47:29is taken,
47:30once they
47:31each decided,
47:33you've got
47:33your opportunity
47:34to really
47:35voice your concerns,
47:37provide your ideas
47:39but once
47:40the decision
47:40is taken,
47:41this is where
47:43we are going.
47:43I mean,
47:44I love that expression,
47:45dragon boat
47:46democracy.
47:47That's right.
47:47So,
47:48I think
47:49that's very good
47:50about China
47:52and it's something
47:53that is really
47:54very,
47:54very important
47:55because
47:56noise
47:57will be
47:58always there.
47:59So,
48:00you have to have
48:01the inherent
48:02built-in
48:03noise cancellation
48:04so it can
48:05really be focused.
48:07Yeah,
48:07I agree.
48:07Otherwise,
48:08wind and noise
48:09will always be there.
48:10I mean,
48:10sometimes
48:10we have difficulties
48:12explaining
48:13to the non-Chinese
48:14people
48:15about what
48:17Chinese democratic
48:17system works.
48:19People tend to think
48:20that the Chinese
48:21democracy
48:21is opaque,
48:23it happens
48:24behind closed doors
48:26and it's not
48:27real democracy,
48:28some even
48:28criticise.
48:29But,
48:29I think what you
48:30described
48:31is,
48:31catches the
48:32characteristics
48:33quite vividly.
48:35The deliberation
48:36process
48:36happens before
48:37the action
48:38is taken.
48:38We don't perform
48:40confrontation,
48:41we don't perform
48:42argument and
48:43debates publicly.
48:44We close the door,
48:46we have the
48:46deliberation,
48:47we have the
48:48disagreement,
48:49we have the
48:50discussions.
48:51Once the
48:52consent is
48:53made,
48:54then we need
48:55to work
48:56in coordination
48:57as one voice.
48:59I'm reading
49:00an interesting
49:00book.
49:01I think I
49:02told you about
49:03it.
49:03The Governance
49:04of China.
49:05Yeah.
49:06The Fifth
49:06Book.
49:07The Fifth
49:07Volume.
49:08The Fifth
49:09Volume by
49:10President Xi
49:12Jinping.
49:13Do you
49:14read it in
49:14English?
49:15In English.
49:15I can't.
49:17I was just
49:18trying to ask
49:18you.
49:19In English.
49:20It's in
49:20English.
49:21It's a very
49:21big book.
49:23600 and
49:23something pages.
49:25But it's
49:26interesting.
49:27And I like
49:28the fact that
49:29they keep
49:30repeating
49:31Chinese
49:31characteristics.
49:33that's very
49:34important.
49:35Because
49:36whatever you're
49:37doing,
49:38you have to
49:38add that
49:39element,
49:39that originality
49:41of the
49:42country.
49:42Because by
49:43adding that,
49:44you're able
49:44really to
49:46contextualize
49:47everything,
49:47and then
49:48explaining it
49:49to the
49:50most important
49:51participants,
49:52the people.
49:52It becomes
49:53much more
49:54easier.
49:54I think this
49:54is very
49:55important.
49:55Chinese
49:56characteristic
49:57should be
49:57understood as
49:58something unique.
49:59It is the
50:00condition for
50:01a universal
50:02idea to be
50:03implemented in
50:04a certain
50:04context.
50:06So context
50:07and
50:07conditionalities
50:08really depicts
50:10what the
50:11Chinese
50:11characteristic
50:12mean.
50:13I think it
50:14is very
50:14important.
50:15And then
50:15the same
50:16with Rwanda.
50:17Rwanda has
50:19its unique
50:19condition.
50:20But what
50:21brings Rwanda,
50:22the rest of
50:23parts of
50:23Africa,
50:24and China,
50:25and the
50:25whole world
50:26in general
50:26together,
50:27is the
50:28common
50:28aspiration
50:28for a
50:29shared
50:30future,
50:30shared
50:31development.
50:32Yeah,
50:32yeah.
50:32With the
50:33people at
50:33the center.
50:34You know,
50:35I think you
50:36follow stories
50:37of some
50:38African
50:39migrants who
50:41were stranded
50:41in Libya
50:42and all
50:43that.
50:44The
50:44president of
50:45Rwanda said,
50:46welcome to
50:47Rwanda,
50:47welcome to
50:47Rwanda,
50:48come to
50:48Rwanda.
50:49And then
50:50there were a
50:50lot of
50:51critics who
50:52were saying,
50:53you know,
50:53the country is
50:53very small.
50:54By the way,
50:55my country is
50:55very small,
50:5626,000 square
50:57kilometers,
50:58and we are
50:59now 14
51:00million people.
51:01But what
51:02they didn't
51:03understand is
51:03that the
51:05country where
51:06it is right
51:06now, it
51:07is thanks to
51:08the generosity
51:09and to the
51:11determination of
51:12Rwanda people
51:13to share what
51:14they have and
51:15build the
51:16country together.
51:17Exactly.
51:17That's very
51:18important.
51:18This really
51:19reflects the
51:20people-centric
51:21geo-development,
51:22right?
51:22Yeah, you
51:23can welcome
51:24to Rwanda,
51:25but we
51:26need to
51:26build a
51:26future
51:27Rwanda
51:27together.
51:28Together.
51:28That's
51:29exactly, I
51:30was writing
51:31something on
51:32the Chinese
51:32base camp
51:33period in
51:34the 1930s.
51:35You know,
51:36base camp
51:37China, the
51:38Chinese-controlled
51:38base camp
51:39in the 1930s,
51:40has the
51:40policy of
51:41welcoming
51:41immigration.
51:43Because of
51:44the wood-torn
51:46China, it
51:47creates loads
51:47of migrants.
51:48And then
51:49they welcome
51:49those
51:50immigration into
51:51the base
51:51camp area so
51:52that they
51:53could work
51:53together to
51:54cultivate
51:55barren land and
51:57to build a
51:58common future
51:58together.
51:59And to build a
52:00common future
52:01through hard
52:02work together,
52:03I think that's
52:03very crucial.
52:04When you sent
52:05me the theme
52:06of this summer
52:07school, I read
52:09it and I liked
52:11it very much.
52:12And I want to
52:13focus on the
52:14communities.
52:15Yeah.
52:15Because communities
52:16is different from
52:17the community.
52:18Exactly.
52:19Oh, you get
52:19the point.
52:20Yes.
52:20This is very
52:21important.
52:21And I'm going
52:22to tell you
52:22my reading.
52:23We share
52:24notes.
52:25You know,
52:25community really,
52:26it's a random
52:28group of people
52:29who share
52:30various things.
52:31Language,
52:32economy.
52:34Yeah.
52:34It's there.
52:35It's very good.
52:36But then
52:37communitas,
52:38explained by
52:39the British
52:41anthropologist
52:42Victor Tanner.
52:44He said
52:45communitas,
52:46it brings
52:47people together
52:48who would
52:48otherwise not
52:50be together.
52:51But they are
52:52together because
52:52of a commitment,
52:54because of a
52:54decision.
52:55Yeah.
52:55That's why we're
52:56here.
52:57Look at me,
52:58I'm from Rwanda.
52:58I think China is
52:59six years ahead of
53:00Rwanda.
53:01Yeah.
53:01But we are
53:01together.
53:02Yeah.
53:02So, in other
53:03words, we are
53:05forming a
53:06communitas because
53:08initially, we
53:10shouldn't be
53:11together.
53:12together.
53:12But because we
53:13decided to
53:14run it behind a
53:15certain goal, it's
53:17going to be
53:17communitas.
53:18The human agency
53:18behind it.
53:19That's bringing
53:20people together.
53:21Yeah.
53:23I'm so glad you
53:24get the point.
53:25No, I got it.
53:26I got it and I
53:27like it a lot.
53:28He went on to
53:29give examples of
53:31how people, when
53:32they're performing
53:32rituals, in
53:34religious rituals,
53:35for example, they
53:35come together.
53:36Yeah.
53:36And he said, this
53:39could be temporary
53:40or people can
53:42decide to make it
53:43permanent.
53:43But as long as
53:45they are running
53:46behind one goal,
53:48achieving one
53:49common goal,
53:50that's communitas.
53:51Yeah.
53:51And it's just
53:53that this kind of
53:54knowledge, in most
53:55cases, stay in
53:56universities.
53:57Yeah.
53:58But it has to be
53:59understood that
54:00this is a
54:02commitment.
54:02This is driven
54:04by people's
54:05decision to work
54:06together to
54:07achieve their
54:08common goal.
54:08And then disseminate
54:09through determined
54:12individuals like
54:13you, like all
54:14across the
54:15network.
54:15That's why these
54:16cameras are here,
54:17I think.
54:18Yeah, yeah,
54:18yeah, absolutely.
54:19Yeah, yeah, yeah.
54:19I mean, I'm
54:21glad that you,
54:22because I use
54:23communitas to
54:24translate the
54:24word gongtongti.
54:26Is it written
54:26here?
54:27Yeah.
54:27Gongtongti.
54:28Gongtongti zhi li.
54:29The first line?
54:30Yeah, that's
54:30gongtongti, which
54:32is in Chinese.
54:33The Chinese term
54:35for community,
54:37as in
54:39gongtongti,
54:40communities of
54:41your shared
54:41future, right?
54:42Yeah, that's
54:43good, because I
54:44don't think, I
54:44think people should
54:45really understand
54:46the difference
54:46between your
54:47community and
54:47communities.
54:48I thank you so
54:49much for bringing
54:50that up, actually.
54:51No, thank you
54:52for bringing it
54:52up.
54:53And thank you
54:53for getting the
54:54point.
54:54You sent me
54:55the theme, and
54:55I was like,
54:56this is good.
54:57This is good.
54:58I didn't use the
54:59official translation
55:00community.
55:00I used the
55:01communitas.
55:02You did well.
55:03You did well.
55:12And this was
55:13another episode
55:13of China Now,
55:14a show that
55:15opens a window
55:16to the present
55:17and future
55:18of the Asian
55:18giant.
55:19Hope you
55:20enjoyed.
55:20See you next
55:21time.
55:21what
55:22You
55:23You
55:23You
55:27You
55:28You
55:30You
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