- 5 weeks ago
Did the Emancipation Day debate expose deeper divisions over race and identity in Trinidad and Tobago?
We go beyond the headlines to examine what the controversy says about us as a nation, whether race relations are improving or deteriorating, and where we go from here. Stay with us.
We go beyond the headlines to examine what the controversy says about us as a nation, whether race relations are improving or deteriorating, and where we go from here. Stay with us.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Conversation, we go to a quick break.
02:00Thank you for having me and good evening to your viewers.
02:03All right.
02:04So let's begin with the events of the past week.
02:07What do you believe was the heart of the Emancipation Day controversy?
02:13I believe it was two separate incidents.
02:19The first was, of course, the absence of the Honourable Prime Minister from the Emancipation Village in Port of Spain.
02:25And then we also had, you know, the East Indian performance at the UTT program, the Emancipation Day program.
02:34And I believe those two incidents would have sparked a debate on social media and in the public spaces.
02:41Okay, so let's deal with the Prime Minister's absence.
02:46What about it makes it a topic of race?
02:55It's a topic of race because the Prime Minister is of Indian descent.
03:00You know, if it was a former Prime Minister, Dr. Rowley, race would not have been an issue.
03:06But what I've been telling my students and friends is that we need to stop seeing the Prime Minister as
03:14an Indian Prime Minister or the leader of the UNC and see her as the Prime Minister of Toronto-Bago.
03:20We need to stop, you know, putting this ethnic label and saying, well, you know, an Indian boycotted the Emancipation
03:26Village or the Indian Prime Minister did that.
03:30So, but, I mean, she would have said it's not a boycott.
03:34She never committed.
03:37So some people have been saying that they're using the word boycott, right?
03:40But I know and you know it's not a boycott.
03:44Right, so let's talk about the East Indian performance at the Emancipation Day Program.
03:51Of course, Dr. Tillak Singh, the program was not marketed as an Emancipation Day function per se.
04:02I wish I could get it on my phone, but it was more of a, let's see, a shared history
04:09of, if I'm not mistaken,
04:13it's a shared history of indentureship and slavery.
04:18Correct.
04:22What persons have been saying is that they did not feel it was right to have something about indentureship on
04:33Emancipation Day.
04:35And some commentators, you know, have been also asking a question.
04:38I've been asking a question too.
04:40For Indian Arrival Day, do we have, you know, this shared platform?
04:45Do we talk about Emancipation Day for Indian Arrival Day?
04:50You know, so it's something we need to address.
04:52You know, why was it a shared program?
04:55I know it's an attempt to, you know, to promote unity.
04:58But that perception was, you know, misinterpreted by some persons.
05:03Now, the conversation online has, of course, erupted.
05:07And then, you know, we saw persons going, digging up the past.
05:11They went to 2023.
05:13UTT had an Indian Arrival Day function, I believe, in 2023,
05:17when it was also a shared platform.
05:20Persons have been arguing that it wasn't an issue then.
05:23Why is it an issue now?
05:24Is that relevant?
05:27Or should we just respect each day as it is?
05:33It is relevant because, you know, if the public did not see anything wrong
05:39three years ago, 2023, and now suddenly they're seeing something wrong,
05:43we need to ask why.
05:45We also need to find out, you know,
05:47should we have days that exclude other events, you know,
05:54for Christmas Day, you know, are we just focusing on the Christian festival of Christmas
06:00for Diwali?
06:02Do we just focus on this Hindu festival?
06:04So we have to also look at, are we sharing the space or are we keeping it exclusive?
06:10Is there a rule as to what should be done?
06:15There is no written rule.
06:17There is no written rule in the constitution.
06:18There is no law passed.
06:20It's just a matter of, I would say, courtesy.
06:24It's just a matter of sometimes protocol, you know,
06:27that we focus on this one festival.
06:31But I know that in this multicultural and plural society,
06:34I know what was being attempted was an attempt to create, you know,
06:38this platform for unity.
06:40So we need to be a little more culturally sensitive.
06:44Tolerant, sensitive, correct.
06:47Let's talk about the public's reaction.
06:50It has been all over social media.
06:52We are seeing persons become incensed almost everywhere.
06:57Everyone, you know, darting eyes.
06:59People are looking at each other differently.
07:01Has this existed in a latent form and it only took this event to really give rise to these reactions?
07:13And what I'm asking is that if this reflects tensions that would have existed beneath the surface for years?
07:22You are correct.
07:23It has always been under the surface.
07:28And we have seen it during election time.
07:31You know, that build up to election, you know, when election bell is rung and we have those few months
07:35before election,
07:36we would see these heated debates.
07:37We would see race.
07:38We would see religion.
07:39We would see class being discussed.
07:42Of course, race is the most prominent one.
07:44So I was, you know, a bit surprised to know that what more than a year after our election,
07:51we are seeing this race, ethnicity, you know, coming into play and creating these divisions,
08:00you know, controversies within the society.
08:03So it's not something, I mean, if it has existed for years, if it continues to exist, it's not something
08:09new.
08:09It's not something that, you know, was created by the events over emancipation.
08:16No, we should not blame culture.
08:18We should not say that, you know, culture is to blame because carnival is culture and carnival, you know,
08:24we all take part, you know, majority of the population take part in carnival.
08:29There is some controversy in carnival, of course, but I have not seen it as deep as what recently happened.
08:35Now, before that, the prime minister had been criticized for using a particular racial slur.
08:43Now, we have used it as media.
08:46We have repeated it.
08:48Initially, it was used by the cheesemaker, Stas Abga, and businesswoman Genevieve Hadid in a now viral audio.
08:56That recording was, of course, of a personal conversation.
08:59Who, if anyone, is wrong for using that slur?
09:07You asked a good question.
09:08I believe that the Sabga-Hadid conversation was wrong because even though it was a private conversation,
09:20it brought the prime minister into disrepute.
09:24It was an attempt to humiliate her, to embarrass her.
09:27And we need to ask ourselves how many more private conversations are occurring in Trinidad and Tobago and maybe abroad
09:34where these words,
09:37these derogatory words are being used, these slurs are being used.
09:42You know, we have to ask ourselves, are we a progressive society in the 21st century?
09:48You know, these are people who are not, these people who are using the words are not illiterate.
09:53You know, these are people with some sense of education, some sense of prominence in society.
09:58So it's very troubling to see that this is happening at that level in society.
10:03But, of course, in response to the emancipation uproar, the heckling of Culture Minister Michelle Benjamin,
10:10the prime minister, has repeated this rhetoric.
10:15Clearly, you know, some may argue that she's hurt or she was hurt by that reference.
10:24But does that now make it okay for her to continue using that slur?
10:29Is she attempting to normalize it?
10:33She's not attempting to normalize it.
10:35From what I perceive, I believe she's trying to remind the public.
10:40She's also trying to remind those who used it that she will not forget them.
10:45You know, that it is not something she will dismiss easily.
10:48So I believe it's a very clever strategy of hers and other persons I've seen who would repeat those words.
10:55However, what I would want to say is that prominent leaders, public figures, should discontinue using it
11:05because the younger generation, primary and secondary school students, teenagers,
11:10hearing that would feel that it is normal to use India vocabulary.
11:13Now, the prime minister also used this slur and pointed to the silence of other political leaders, of other authorities.
11:23Thus far, the only body to have spoken about the use of that slur, in particular, among others,
11:31would be the Emancipation Support Committee.
11:35You are right.
11:37There was a definite silence from religious leaders, business leaders, other leaders in society,
11:44other prominent persons, you know, seem to have either ignored it or were fearful of condemning the use of those
11:52words.
11:52So it's very interesting that you raise that because I also have been asking myself,
11:57why have so many people, even some of the media personalities, remain quiet and, you know,
12:03did not speak out against the use of those words?
12:07What is the difference between the use of the N-word and the use of the C-word?
12:17There is no difference. Both words are meant to humiliate, you know,
12:24meant to make somebody look like they are low class, they have no brought up seat.
12:29Both words are meant to give emotional and psychological damage to the person, the target, the victim.
12:36Historically, could you just trace back where these terms come from
12:41and how the meaning would have changed over the years?
12:47Both words are colonial remnants.
12:51The N-word was used during the slavery days, you know, to show that one race was superior over another
12:57race.
12:59And both words, the C-word was used, you know, to talk about laborers,
13:05indentured laborers from India and also from China.
13:08And interestingly, both words were used commonly, 17th century, the N-word, 16th century, the N-word, 1920th century, the
13:19C-word being used.
13:20It was used in literature.
13:21They would talk about depots for these people.
13:24It would be used by the British officials.
13:27So it was common usage.
13:30And I guess it depends, you know, later on people use it in anger.
13:33And it had this derogatory term.
13:36But terms change, you know, as we know, we no longer use the term Negro.
13:42We use Afro-American, we use African-American.
13:44So over time, terms have changed because during the 1950s and 60s, the leaders in the United States used the
13:52term Negro.
13:52It was commonly accepted.
13:54So there's no defining moment where the meaning would have changed.
14:00Correct.
14:02Words like language, it evolved over time.
14:06Now, Dr. Tilak Singh, it's not the first time that a political leader would have used such language.
14:14Now, I mean, I guess it's important in this context, and I will come to Dr. Rowley a little later
14:19on.
14:20But to note that the Prime Minister, Kamala Pesad-Besasa, was repeating a term used to describe her.
14:27In 2013, in his inaugural address, former President Maxwell Richards called himself a red N.
14:35In 2010, during a parliamentary debate, Jack Warner, who was Minister of Works at the time, called himself HNIC.
14:44That was in Parliament.
14:45He did not elaborate on the meaning of those words.
14:48In 2023, former Prime Minister Dr. Rowley referenced Jack Warner, who would have called himself HNIC.
14:59In that instance, while Dr. Rowley was referencing Jack Warner, he said those, he said the words.
15:06He was publicly, said it in front of more than 100 people.
15:12What is the difference this time around?
15:17I believe that the difference is that the word that was used in the context of Stabka and the Hadid
15:27conversation was used with a certain amount of anger, hatred, you know, a certain amount of disrespect.
15:36That is why the word now is so damaging that is being used.
15:42It is interesting that you went into the past, because when somebody uses the word to describe themselves, it doesn't
15:51have that impact, like when someone else uses it.
15:54Now, I could use the C word to describe myself, and I wouldn't feel hurt, because I use the word.
15:59If somebody else uses the word to describe me, there's a certain amount of hurt I might feel.
16:06If it's a friend, I might laugh it off.
16:08But it all depends upon who is using it and the emotional use of the word, the type of emotion.
16:15If that person is happy, is that person joking, is that person serious?
16:18Comedians use the word, eh?
16:20But, of course, you did say persons describing themselves.
16:24In past instances, the prime minister, I believe, on two occasions, uses C word to describe herself.
16:31Correct.
16:32As recently as Indiana Rival Day, she described herself as that, yes.
16:35And even opposition leader Penelope Beckles asked if you described yourself as such, why the offense when someone else uses
16:44it to describe you?
16:45To describe you.
16:46As I said, you know, people are, it's not just in Korea, across the world, you know, somebody of Chinese
16:54descent might not find the word shiny being offensive, but we know that it's a slur just like the C
17:01word and the N word.
17:02So we also have to be careful of using other words to describe people, you know, ethnic groups.
17:10What makes it, what makes it okay, as you said, if someone or someone of that particular race calls themselves
17:19the C word or calls themselves the N word, but if someone of the opposite uses it, is it automatically
17:27derogatory?
17:29It's not automatically derogatory.
17:32As I said, it all depends the manner in which that person uses it.
17:38If I'm quoting someone who used it, like I'm quoting Jack Warner, described himself as that, it would not be
17:44hurtful because Warner described himself as that.
17:46Or the late president, Mark Richards, described himself as that.
17:50So I think it depends on how you use that word, and that is important, with words.
17:58So social media practitioners, sorry, media practitioners, we have been having the conversation within ourselves whether we should or should
18:07not, if the litmus, if it was used in the past, why stop using it now?
18:11For instance, the C word was used in the court affidavit.
18:16Where's the line?
18:18What should we do?
18:19What's your advice?
18:21I think that the word could be used, but it must not be used out of context.
18:27It must not be used loosely.
18:30It's not foul language, but it's a label that, you know, doesn't have positive connotations to it, doesn't have a
18:40positive description to it.
18:42And I'll tell you something.
18:44Sometimes when politicians use the word to say that, you know, I am a C or I am a N,
18:49it also shows how they have uplifted themselves, how they have improved themselves, how their status has changed, right?
18:57So sometimes they do that, they use those words, politicians and people, to connect to the past, to connect to
19:03the grassroots, right?
19:04Sometimes they use that word to feel, you know, I'm in power, I'm wearing a jacket and tie, I'm up
19:10here in the upper class, the middle class.
19:12And they use those terms often to connect with the people.
19:16Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work.
19:18So we've seen in international debates, for instance, over words like the N word in American pop culture.
19:27Some argue that changing the spelling or the context changes the meaning, while others say that the historical baggage remains,
19:36you know, in a lot of the songs the N word is used.
19:40But it was done intentionally to take the weaponization out of the word.
19:48Does that work?
19:50Has that worked in American culture?
19:53It has to a certain extent.
19:56In hip-hop, the word is used a lot.
19:59I believe in dance or music, you know, the word is used too.
20:04So in various genres of music, the word has been used, again, to connect to the people, to connect to
20:12the past, you know, so that, but often the word, I'll tell you the truth, sometimes the word has become
20:20like a cliche, it has been overused.
20:22So we no longer see the word as having meaning, that word, C word or N word, no longer having
20:28that powerful impact sometimes, because it has been overly used.
20:34Is it possible, if it has been done in American culture, is it possible to do that here?
20:43There will be some backlash, because we have tended to be a relatively conservative society, but we are also very
20:53Americanized, and American culture has influenced us.
20:57I'm seeing a lot of young people using it loosely on social media and in regular conversation, so I don't
21:03know if that's a good or bad, but we, you know, we are strongly influenced, you know, because of cable,
21:10TV, and because of how close America culture is to our culture.
21:14What would you say to the Prime Minister, how would you advise her?
21:21I wouldn't want to advise a Prime Minister or President, because I wouldn't feel that I'm at that level, but
21:26I would want to put the advice to all parliamentarians and all leaders to be very careful of their vocabulary,
21:34because many of the young people are seeing them as role models.
21:38Many of them, you know, dream of being a Prime Minister, a young girl, dreaming of being like the Honourable
21:43Kamala Prasad-Bissessa, you know, a young boy dreaming to be like one of those politicians.
21:48So, I think that they need to be very mindful.
21:52I also want to add that the media has a rule to avoid, you know, putting this thing out there
22:02on maybe the front pages or the first item in the news, because that gives it a certain prominence in
22:08the public space and in the society.
22:10I also have to ask you, Dr. Tilluxing, there's this perception, I'm not sure if recent elections would prove this
22:19wrong, but there's this perception that the base of the People's National Movement is Afro-based and the UNC is
22:28Indo-based.
22:28When persons in authority and even on social media, say, the PNM people or the UNC people, is that a
22:44way or a get around in referring to our race?
22:50You are 100% correct, even though both parties have attracted persons of other ethnic groups, you know, the UNC
22:59have attracted some Afro-Trinidadians, the PNM has attracted some Indo-Trinidadians and other ethnic minorities, but you are correct.
23:08And when we say those words, we know exactly what we mean.
23:13We're not talking about religion, we're not talking so much about class, but we are talking about an entire racial
23:19or ethnic group.
23:20And that has not been in 2026, that has been there since 1956, you know, when we had an election
23:29and the PNM won.
23:31So, it's like a metaphor.
23:35Correct.
23:35It's a metaphor that we understand.
23:39There's a certain subliminal message that we understand when the word is being used, what we refer to.
23:46And I have to reflect on two recent statements.
23:49We know that Karim Marcel would have said, they hate us and we hate them.
23:56And he said he was referring to the UNC, not any racial group or ethnic group.
24:01And also the Prime Minister also says a lot of the time, the PNM and their supporters, the PNM and
24:08their supporters.
24:10Would we be correct to say, even though they both have disclaimed that and said, no, they're just referring to
24:18the political party and their supporters and so on.
24:21Is there still a subliminal message there?
24:25Yes, you are correct.
24:27Once you say those words, the public, the society knows exactly who you're referring to.
24:35You know, when you say they hate us or we hate us or that group and their supporters, you know,
24:41we know that it's 95% of one ethnic group, you know, or 90% of our ethnic group.
24:46So it's something that has become normalized and acceptable to make those statements.
24:54We often describe ourselves as a melting pot, a multi-ethnic success story.
25:02Does that description still hold true today?
25:08I have disagreed with that.
25:11I might be criticized for that, but I feel that those terms tend to be very cosmetic.
25:18You know, there is still a lot of mistrust, a lot of hate, a lot of fear between the two
25:24major ethnic groups.
25:26But we have a population that is tolerant and mindful of, you know, these deceptive words that are being used
25:35sometimes by politicians and others.
25:37But I feel that, you know, we still have a lot of divisions.
25:41You know, even sometimes in the Soka or the Calypso, we talk about Jahajibai and Real Unity and Olaway is
25:50One and Trinity to the Bone.
25:52But in reality, that is not so.
25:54There's still this mistrust between the two major groups.
25:58And it's not just Trent Abago.
26:00Guyana is like that.
26:02And during Forbes Burnham and Desmond Hoyt, 1960s and 70s, Guyana had a terrible racial tension between the two major
26:12ethnic groups.
26:12And that would be because of the ethnic composition.
26:15And, you know, some colleagues in the other islands, you know, we do have the discussion.
26:20And, you know, we talk about how progressive Barbados' political discussions are and their debates are.
26:27And the conclusion that we come to is that they can have that because they are monoethnic.
26:33There's only one ethnicity.
26:34So how are you going to divide people?
26:37So you talk about your real issues.
26:39Whereas here in Guyana, it's very feisty and we always find the risk-grabbing occurring.
26:47You're very right about that.
26:49But you have to remember, too, a place like India, which is monoethnic, religion comes into this with Hindus and
26:56Muslims.
26:57You know, so when race is not there, they will find, humans will find a way to keep divisions amongst
27:02themselves.
27:03Divide and conquer.
27:06Part of the colonial formula.
27:10Healthy conversations.
27:11Would this be a solution to our issues?
27:18Those healthy conversations need to be practical.
27:24We cannot just have a conference, a seminar, form a committee, have a symposium.
27:30That's a talk show.
27:31We need to ensure these healthy spaces that we create, these healthy conversations, are implemented.
27:37We cannot just pass a law to say, if you use this C, whether or not you'll go in jail.
27:42Or you have to be tolerant.
27:43You cannot force somebody to like somebody.
27:46You cannot force somebody to be tolerant.
27:47It has to be instilled.
27:49It has to be part of the psyche of the society.
27:52And the only way we could do that is if maybe we start implementing programs in the preschools, kindergartens, primary
27:58schools, secondary schools.
27:59So the next generation will learn to appreciate other ethnic and religious groups.
28:05Now, I totally get the next generation.
28:07But what practical steps can we take now to ensure that Trinidad and Tobago strengthens trust and understanding across communities?
28:17I don't think there is a solution right now for this present generation.
28:23It's difficult to change adults.
28:25And what we have affecting race relations is the issue of crime.
28:30Also, the issue of the economy.
28:32Jobs being scarce sometimes.
28:34People getting retrenched.
28:35So the state of the economy and crime are impacting on race relations.
28:39You know, so I think we have to be in that manner.
28:42We have to be practical about that.
28:44Are you optimistic about the future of race relations in TNT?
28:49I am optimistic.
28:51We have a literate population.
28:54We have a rational, level-headed population.
28:57And a few days ago, we commemorated, you know, the anniversary of the coup.
29:04It is because we had a level-headed population that the coup did not go past six days.
29:10So I think we, you know, we have good, upright citizens who would ensure that we do not descend into
29:17chaos like maybe Bosnia and Rwanda in the 1990s.
29:22That will not happen because I know in our Twin Island Republic, we have a certain level of unity and
29:29tolerance.
29:30But it is not 100%.
29:32As we close, 20 seconds, how would you speak to the regular citizens out there who get incensed and who
29:39would, you know, go to work or school, secondary school, for instance, and you would feel that tension between your
29:47colleagues, classmates, etc.
29:51I would like the public to avoid letting politics color their minds.
29:58I would like the public to be very careful about, you know, what they ingest, what they digest, you know,
30:06from the media, from what is being said.
30:09And I think people need to be, you know, see things clearly and choose wisely in their decisions.
30:16Sometimes we are so rushed to believe everything that we hear and we often don't understand the underlying and hidden
30:24agendas.
30:25Dr. Cherum Tilak Singh, I want to thank you so much for joining us this evening, sharing your insights and,
30:30of course, your time on an issue that continues to shape our national conversation.
30:36And thank you to our viewers for joining us on Beyond the Headlines.
30:39Of course, if you missed any part of tonight's discussion, you can catch the full interview on our digital platforms.
30:45I'm Urvashi Tawari-Rubnarain.
30:47It's back to the show for the news.
30:55Thanks, Urvashi.
30:56Now for our people, Mita, tonight we asked you, do you support the proposal for mandatory IDs for those 16
31:03years and over?
31:05For those of you who voted, 14 years.
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