00:10Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion about the
00:15Saba Child Wellbeing Index, which provides Saba's most comprehensive baseline for child
00:21well-being. This index addresses some significant data gaps, particularly for children who are
00:27undocumented, stateless, or with disabilities. These are the groups that are often absent from
00:32national surveys, but who are disproportionately affected by systemic barriers. Now, how accurately
00:38do the findings of this report reflect the realities on the ground? Well, joining us from Kota Kinabalu,
00:44Sabah is Kalista S. Doni, who is the Principal Assistant Secretary for Suhakam Sabah. Kalista,
00:51welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me. Now, when you read the UNICEF report, I'm just
00:56wondering what was stood out to you the most as someone who is actually working with children
01:02and communities in Sabah? Thank you, Melissa, for having me. It's a pleasure to be here today.
01:09So, Sabah, for context, is home to more than a million children. So, for every three persons that
01:18we meet in Sabah, one of them is a child. Yes, children are the right holders, while all of us
01:25are the duty bearers, we all know that. So, the community, the government, civil society organizations,
01:32private sectors, business sectors, we all have the responsibility for the well-being of the children.
01:37What stood out the most to me in the report was, first, the report found that more than 90%
01:46of
01:47children aged between 13 to 17 do not feel like they live in a safe and harmonious environment.
01:55Second is that almost 70% of adolescents aged between 15 to 17 reported that they do not know
02:03or don't have access to reproductive health information and services when they actually
02:11need them. And third is the ongoing issues of undocumented and stateless children. So,
02:18it is as if, like, these undocumented and stateless children do not even exist in the system.
02:25Yeah. So, in Suhakam Sabah, interestingly, these are also the three key areas that we are currently
02:33working on. One of the highest number of complaints that we receive in the Suhakam Sabah office is about
02:41the legal identity or documentation status of the children. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, can I zoom in on
02:50what you said about adolescence, the gaps in adolescence, sexual and reproductive health.
02:55Calista, maybe you can explain that. Does it reflect what you're seeing in your own work? Why is this
03:01area such a difficult area to address?
03:06Yeah. So, I think that issues with they do not have access to reproductive health information and services
03:13also goes to our discussion on issues of child marriage, which is still happening in the community
03:21and which is still normalized. So, if you don't mind, I would like to share my experience, yeah,
03:29interviewing a father in a rural community area. So, the father, I asked, when were your children
03:37married at what age? And he said, he doesn't know about age as long as the children look mature to
03:44be
03:45married of. What he meant by mature is when the child reached puberty and for girl, it means when
03:56the menstruation starts. We all know that menstruation starts as early as nine or eight years old. So,
04:02it is a very sad situation for child marriage cases, which is still happening in Sabah. It is
04:09interesting, but also it's a harmful practice that some communities still believe that child marriage
04:18is a magic solution to teenage pregnancies or the children who are, we are unable, perceived as
04:27as well. So, it's uncomfortable. But studies show otherwise. So, when the children married off at a very
04:34young age, the children often did not pursue their studies and they are stuck in the cycle of poverty
04:43in the community. And they also post higher health risks to the pregnant young mothers and also the babies.
04:52So, sexual reproductive health in the school is also perceived as a taboo in the community. So,
05:03it is very important and it's very high time that we look into it. Yeah.
05:07Yeah, definitely. Definitely. The other finding that I thought was particularly interesting,
05:11Calista, was I noticed there were differences, geographical differences across the different
05:17districts in Sabah that were surveyed. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? How much does
05:21geography determine a child's opportunity in Sabah? Oh, absolutely. Geographical wise, it affects the
05:30children tremendously, especially in the rural area. So, imagine when the child is born, the father had to
05:40walk about 8, 7, 8, 13 hours just to go to the city to register for the birth of the
05:51baby.
05:51So, this is a real case, the same father that I interviewed. So, it affects the legal documentation of the
05:59children, also access to school, which then also affects the practice of child marriage in the community.
06:05So, it's all interconnected. So, geographical wise, it heavily affects the children. Yes.
06:12And the report, one of the things I really liked about the report is it doesn't just focus on how
06:17can we better
06:18protect children in Sabah, but how do we help children thrive? Talk to me a little bit about that.
06:24Why is that such an important distinction between these two ideas? Why is it important that surveys like
06:30this identify what makes children thrive? Yeah. So, I think there is an important distinction between
06:39protecting children and also helping them thrive. So, protecting children means that we are protecting
06:48them from abuse, from neglect, from exploitation, also meeting their basic needs such as access to
06:55education and healthcare. But helping children thrive is one step further than that. It means that we give
07:05them opportunity to develop to their full potential, having the freedom to choose what they want to do
07:12and things like that for the betterment of their life and the future. Yeah. So, for example, a child
07:19might be enrolled in school, which means that, okay, he or she, the child is having access to education. But
07:24what happened in the school? Is the child being included? Is the child actually able to learn and follow the
07:31processes in the schools and things like that? If I may add, other than that, a child-friendly approach
07:38should also be a guide in every stage of the system, going back to access to justice of a child.
07:48So, child-friendly approach should be a guide from the moment the case is reported at the police station
07:54to the time when the child witnesses is giving a statement to when there is a necessity to take
08:06medical reports in the hospital to court proceedings and also for rehabilitation processes.
08:14So, I share this because what actually happened on the ground is that the children, again, have to wait
08:21a lengthy, had to go a lengthy processes from the moment the report is lodged to the moment that he
08:30or she is being admitted to the hospital. It took him or her about 13 hours just to go through
08:35these
08:36processes which re-traumatized the child and demotivated the child to pursue the matter.
08:42You see, this is very important, yeah.
08:44Yeah, thank you for making that distinction. I think some of these stories really
08:49humanize it for us, right? The difference between just protecting a child but also
08:53letting them live to their full potential. When you look at some of the findings in this report,
08:59which findings, Calessa, do you worry about that might have been normalized because it has existed for
09:06so long that, you know, we've become used to it? So, the findings that, well, there are many findings
09:14that concerns us and me but I think the very obvious situation is the situation of undocumented
09:23and stateless children in Sabah. Come down to KK and you can identify them. The children look very different.
09:30They are on the streets. Some of them sniffing loose. But it's interesting also that the society
09:40might have the understanding of how the well-being of how the life of the children should be. But when
09:46it comes to undocumented and or stateless children, it is as if like their rights do not exist. It's
09:55interesting. So, children are children. So, our Child Act, our United Nations Convention on the Rights
10:02of the Child which Malaysia had ratified does not differentiate these children regardless of their
10:08citizenship status or background. But what the realities that happen on the ground is that we are
10:15so accustomed to see the children in our background, in our fish markets, in the, in the, well, actually,
10:25even in the city, these things are normalized. But children are children. They need basic necessities.
10:31They need to go to school. They need proper food, proper shelter. But this is the reality that we are
10:37facing.
10:38So, what would you actually like policy makers to do with this data? How would you like them to use
10:44this
10:44data that's come up from the UNICEF and the State Government to actually better the lives of children
10:49and, as you said, to have that child-friendly approach? Yes. So, I really hope that this
10:59Sabah Child Wellbeing Index is utilized as a practical tool for action. The findings show us that children's
11:08well-being is influenced by many interconnected factors. One important step now that we can,
11:16and which is urgent, is to have an integrated and digitalized well-being data system of children. So,
11:24from there, we can, together, monitor the progress and support more responsive, evidence-based policy
11:32making, which helps everyone, including the children. Ultimately, I think the report shows
11:38what that we need to prioritize children and planning and decision making. And actually,
11:44this will benefit Sabah positively. It will contribute to the development of Sabah in the future.
11:49Can I ask you what that means? So, you know, a lot of people would say you should include children
11:54and they must participate in policy making, policies about them that affect them. We say children should have a
12:01voice, but sometimes we don't listen to them. So, in practice, Kalista, what does meaningful
12:06participation with children for children's policies look like? Yeah, very, very interesting question.
12:15So, I really hope meaningful participation of children is streamlined in Sabah,
12:29which means more than simply giving children an opportunity to attend an event or to perform in an event,
12:39but which can also mean just decoration or tokenism, you see. So, we should move further than that.
12:49It means meaningful participation means creating opportunities for children to express their views,
12:55not just express their views, respect their views, and their views be included in the policy making.
13:01So, I encourage that everyone, every stakeholders, when we discuss about children and matters affecting
13:09children, include them in the policy, make it a requirement as an SOP to include children's views
13:17in every matter. I want to give an example. So, when, for example, when there is a land acquisition
13:25in Sabah for native customary land, right? So, the adults are often consulted in these processes,
13:33how it affects their lives, things like that. But where are children in this aspect?
13:38I see. So, it is never, it was never a requirement to ask the children how the relocation of their
13:46house
13:47or their land area affects them, but it does affect them in many ways. So, yeah. Yeah. That's about
13:54meaningful participation.
13:55Thank you for highlighting that, Calista. I really appreciate you taking time to talk to us today.
13:59Thank you for your time. Calista Esdoni there from Sohakam Sabah wrapping up this episode of
14:04Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching. Good night.
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