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Marking World Children’s Day this year, which is celebrated every 20th of November, we’re encouraged to see that Malaysian children are speaking up more than ever, including young advocates presenting Malaysia’s first Convention on the Rights of the Child Children’s report in Geneva. But we are truly listening to what children are telling us about their lives, and if so, will policymakers act on it? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris @MelisaMelina_Idris speaks with Sanja Saranovic, Deputy Representative for UNICEF Malaysia, and child advocate Jessie Lee.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show where we want
00:16you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. Marking World Children's
00:21Day which is celebrated every 20th of November and this year we're really encouraged to see
00:27Malaysian children speaking up more than ever including young advocates presenting Malaysia's
00:34first convention on the rights of the child children's report in Geneva. So tonight on the
00:40show we'll explore if we are truly listening to what children are telling us about their lives
00:46and if policymakers will act on it. So joining me on the show I have Asanya Saranovic who is a deputy
00:55who is the deputy representative for UNICEF Malaysia and I also have Jesse Lee who is a child
01:01advocate. So both of you welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me. Lots to talk about but
01:07if I may begin with you Asanya, your assessment of where Malaysia has made meaningful progress on
01:15child rights. And I do wonder because I believe this year or next year, 2026, we have a review
01:23of our commitments under the Convention of the Rights of the Child, the CRC. So talk to me a little bit
01:28about where we're at now in terms of making progress on child rights. Yeah, first of all thank you
01:36Melissa for the invitation. I'm always happy to talk about child rights especially in Malaysia. So having
01:43said that, Malaysia is doing really well. There are several things that Malaysia is committed to do so.
01:49So since ratification in 1995, Malaysia is next year reporting on the second to fourth report progress on
01:59implementation on the child rights in Malaysia. Why is delayed? Because that was COVID era, many other
02:09countries were in line. But this is a perfect opportunity for Malaysia to showcase a good progress.
02:17Malaysia is doing well when it comes to the legislation. The Child Act is really a solid base to
02:26implement and to align the national legislation with the Convention on the Rights of the Child that
02:32Malaysia ratified in 1995. Then we have the recent legislative changes for the children who are in
02:38contact in contact in the law like victims, but also children who are victims of sexual abuse. So in terms of
02:48legislation, Malaysia is doing well. Also, Malaysia is trying to align child rights to go in hand, hand in hand with
02:57economic progress. So everything around 13 Malaysia plan, we are supporting the government to really put child rights and the
03:06children issue high on the agenda. In addition, I mean, there is a lot to talk, but I'm just giving you some
03:14highlights. In addition, Malaysia universal school enrollment is very high, above 90%. Immunization is very
03:25high. But however, you know, there are still those who are the most vulnerable, the most marginalized or the poor
03:32among the poorest. There are always some groups of children who are left behind.
03:40Left behind, yeah. Okay. Jessie, does it feel like Malaysia is making progress? When Sanya says, you know,
03:46Malaysia has made some progress. For you as a child in Malaysia, does it feel that way to you?
03:52I mean, honestly, it does in some ways. As a student that, you know, goes to national school, like government
03:58school, it does feel like, yeah, Malaysia is making the steps that we need it to make. But of course,
04:04like Sanya said, you know, there are groups that are being left behind, you know, it's not just,
04:09you know, children who are in cities that, oh my god, the syllabus is so hard, and then that's what we
04:13need to focus on. But it's also on children who are in, you know, marginalized communities, like the
04:18refugee children, the disabled children, all those, all those kids, right, they have such small access to
04:24school. And even if they do get into school, they don't get the equal systems that like,
04:32like documented children get. Yeah, you know, equal access. And it feels, it feels so like,
04:37you're saying that you respect children, you're saying that you take our values, but then when
04:41we ask you about the other children, you're like, oh, that doesn't really matter. Or you put them,
04:46etc. You don't name them. So I understand you presented Malaysia's first CRC Children's Report
04:52Engineering. Was it in February? Yes. Yes. Okay, so tell me about that experience, but also
04:58what did it reveal to you about what issues matter the most to young people today? Honestly,
05:04that experience was one of a kind. I mean, I still think about it until now, because it's such an
05:09interesting thing to talk about. Because like, not am I only going out internationally to represent
05:14Malaysia as my country, but I also get to talk on the behalf of kids who don't get that opportunity.
05:19And a lot of the issues that they brought up was discrimination, you know, because even though
05:25Malaysia is considered as a diverse country, there is still so much discrimination going around how
05:29people say that, oh, you shouldn't hang out with these people or that you shouldn't be with them,
05:33because that's the stereotype, you know, even when I was reading through the report, there was this one
05:39girl where she wrote a letter about how she was a different race to her friends. And she would try so
05:43many things to fit in, but her friends still wouldn't, you know, accept her as who she is,
05:47because she's just different. And among discrimination, there's also mental health,
05:52and, you know, just health as in general, as an accessibility that people and children need.
05:58Yeah, definitely a huge topic nowadays about looking at the mental health of young people.
06:04Sonia, you talked about some of the progress that Malaysia has made. Where would you say the biggest
06:10gaps remain still? Yeah, in every country in the world, just to say there are gaps. The more the
06:15countries developed that there is a more push to really align national legislation and practice
06:21with the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Malaysia still have some reservations to the provision
06:27of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, but I do believe at this moment there is a strong
06:32commitment, as we are supporting the government to report next year to Geneva Committee, there is a strong
06:40commitment to work, technical, to work on lifting up some of the reservation. And these are the main gaps,
06:47right? Unfortunately, Malaysia still have some reservations, so we will support the government
06:52on working how to lift those reservations. The world has changed, so there are new challenges,
06:59like online. Tomorrow, you may know the UNICEF is supporting the government in the ASEAN event,
07:06the ICT forum, so there are new challenges, right? That they are continuing from offline
07:12violations to the online. So how to respond to these new challenges when the industry is progressing
07:19so fast? How to responsabilise industry? How to have the partnership with the government, industry,
07:25parents, community to really know what is happening with our child when they are online,
07:31and how to protect them, and how children to report abuse or potential risk in a safe manner.
07:39Jesse spoke about mental health. Fortunately, after COVID, mental health is not any more taboo,
07:46but we still have a large... The research that we did together with the Ministry of Health in 2022,
07:55My Health Index shows that one of out of four adolescents suffers from some form of depression.
08:03One out of ten is suicidal. So there are huge numbers, and this is something that we need to respond
08:11together. First, to demystify mental health is not only a health issue. We need to talk more about it.
08:17We need to talk at the community level, with the parents, in the school. So there are some gaps,
08:23but we are catching up with them, and there is a strong will to address these gaps. And together
08:31with the young people who are indicating us where there are gaps, like climate. Jesse will tell you
08:37more about it. Climate, young people are leading on this front. Yes, definitely. Tell me, Jesse,
08:45how do you see whether policy makers, whether people in authority are listening to children? Because
08:53you talked about all the different stakeholders, and I do wonder whether... How do we make sure that
08:58children are heard every step of the way, and not just at the end of a checklist, you know, when you go,
09:05consultation done. That young people are actually part of policy design from the very beginning.
09:11Sonia, you mentioned online protection, so safety, child safety online. And I think that's where we
09:18could maybe hear from young people how they want to be protected online, how they would like to
09:24report abuses. Jesse, do you have anything to add? I mean, honestly, if you ask me whether
09:30stakeholders really include children, it depends on what you mean by that. Do you mean that they include
09:35them as in they, you see them there, or are they actually talking at the table? Right. Because nowadays,
09:40all the time, you see people saying, oh, yeah, we've included children. But are the children
09:44actually, you know, speaking there? Are they just sitting there and being like, oh, yes, we agree?
09:49Because I've seen so many stakeholders say, you know, they show us that these are what the children
09:54said. But when you actually go to the kids, and you ask them, oh, is this what you said? They say,
09:58no, we didn't say that. Surprisingly, right? Yeah, some adults like to change what kids say to their liking,
10:04which I feel like is so wrong, because you're trying to fix issues that are affecting children,
10:09but you don't want to take the considerations from the child who is affected by the issue.
10:14Right. So besides that, you know, when children want to be protected online, and not just offline,
10:20I feel like it's so difficult, because some people will say that, oh, we're not mature enough to
10:25understand what these online things are, or what computers and how the systems work. But the truth is,
10:30is that the young generation is always on the internet. So I feel like out of every person that
10:36should know how the internet works, it would be us, right? So I mean, come on, like, give us a chance,
10:43you know, you can have your doubts. But if you don't give that chance, then how will you know what
10:47we're really going to say? I mean, even for example, a few days ago, on the recent case about the
10:52stabbing in the violence, yeah, when that came up, I saw that there were so many cartoonified images of
10:59the victim and the perpetrator going all over social media. Yeah, it was very shocking. I mean,
11:06even for me, I was like, that is such a violent, that's such like a violation of not only the victim,
11:12but also the perpetrator, the identity, and their rights overall, you know. So just from that, I feel
11:18like we can see that we need more improvement. And how we can protect these kids is that, you know,
11:22putting in better systems, better moderation. But when you take media and internet away from children,
11:27that's not going to fix anything. Because as we've seen, you know, children,
11:31they will find any way to break that system. So, you know, you just need to consult children
11:37realistically, and not just put them there as decoration or to check something off.
11:42So yeah, do you have anything to add about how children can be meaningfully included? And that
11:48wonderful example of violence in schools, and how we can engage children even before the violence
11:58happens in school. So there's one part of it where you need reporting mechanisms. But before that,
12:04there's also a whole host of other interventions that can be done to prevent it from ever reaching
12:11that place. And maybe hearing or listening to children when they tell us what they need.
12:16Yeah. No, I mean, both of you, you said it so well, Melissa and Jesse. I mean, we need more
12:23children, young people like Jesse to articulate and to say what they need concretely in family,
12:31in community, in the school. Melissa, you are right. You know, when violence happens,
12:36it's already too late. Usually there is a retribution to those who offended, and there are some
12:43protective measures for a victim. But our objective is not to have this at the first place, as you
12:49mentioned. So it's a prevention. So we need to design the community, the schools based on the needs of
12:56the children. We need to institutionalize a mechanism for participation of young people and children.
13:02They will tell us what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. They will tell us what type of relationship
13:09with the teachers, with the community they need. I personally do promote having counselors in the
13:15schools. Unfortunately, this is not always possible. But when you look at the maybe budget of Malaysia,
13:22Malaysia is almost a high income country. I'm sure that with some reallocation, we can support the
13:29system to ensure the qualified counselors are in the school to talk about the problems of today.
13:36Problems of today, they are very different from the problems when I was a student. So we need to
13:42catch up what is relevant for this young generation and we need to talk about it. And we need to ask them
13:50what are the solutions. Because partnership with young people is the way to do it. Participation is not
13:58an optional and is not, as Jesse said, just to tick the box. If we really want to respect the rights of
14:04children and to have a modern society, prosperous society, which Malaysia is on the right way to go,
14:11we really need to partner with young people. We need to learn from them. How do we do that realistically?
14:17I do wonder because sometimes in a society like Malaysia, which is, that has that kind of power
14:23distance, a very big power distance in terms of the gap. Children are often seen and, you know,
14:31not heard. Children are often seen as secondary or peripheral. How do we make sure that that's
14:38changing in terms of mindset, but also in terms of practice? Yeah. I mean, I also come from the society,
14:44which is not a reflex to consult. I was not consulted on many things when I was a child and people in my
14:51community. But this is also changing. As Jesse said, young people now know much more than we know,
14:57because they are exposed to the information. But also it's the matter of practice of asking children.
15:06And I can see, I mean, I'm in Malaysia since 2023. I'm impressed. I go for the many events
15:13and climates are one of them, where young people are really at the heart of the discussion. And I've seen
15:19some very high level officials from the government not only willing to listen, but really willing to
15:25involve. For example, we are going to have annual review this year in December when we discuss with
15:33the government results for this year. I'm happy for the first time we will have participation of youth
15:38and the government will listen to them. So it's the matter of creating habit of first involving young
15:46people and children, then slowly listening them. And at the end, you know, it will be a norm. It's
15:54already norm in some events. It's already norm. All right. And that's wonderful to hear that that's
15:59coming from the adults in the room. But for the children, how did you, Jesse, become an advocate
16:06yourself? How did you learn to advocate for your rights and speak up when no one was really listening
16:12and say, hey, I deserve a seat at that table? How did you get here? And what advice do you have
16:17for other children who might want to advocate for themselves and their peers? I feel like honestly,
16:23my journey as a young advocate started like very, not quite young, actually, it only started about last
16:30year. But everything that I've learned is, it's actually quite easy to understand what your rights
16:35are and what you actually deserve to have. Because when I realized, you know, I see teachers scolding us for
16:41things that aren't even wrong, or I see adults saying that, oh, children don't matter, you know,
16:46they'll figure it out themselves. It's weird, you know, it's conflicting, because people always say
16:51that these adults, these teachers, our parents, our counselors, our principals, even, they are the ones
16:56to protect us to guide us. But yet, in my everyday life, I didn't see that, you know, I felt like,
17:02okay, that's so weird. So by luck, by chance, I was brought to a workshop that was related to the
17:08report itself. And I learned about my rights there. And from there, my journey just grew.
17:13And I realized that if I'm really going to advocate, I need to advocate harder and better so that adults
17:19will truly listen to children, and we can make a better Malaysia. And for, you know, young people
17:23that want to be advocates, the main thing is to always stick to who you are. You know, don't try to be
17:29what the adults tell you to be. Don't try to follow what other people do. Stick to who you are,
17:34because advocacy isn't about following the books. It's about following what you think is right.
17:38Right. For the people, the skeptics out there who say, you know, young people are not engaged.
17:45They don't care about what's happening. They just want to kind of live in a little bubble of
17:50entertainment and friends and, you know, childhood, essentially. Some people say that young people
17:56are disenfranchised and disengaged from what's happening around the world. How would you respond to
18:02that? Do you think that's true? I think it's not true. Because the thing is that it's not that
18:08children are disengaged or that, oh, we don't care about politics, but rather it's that we do care,
18:14but the way that we care is different from how adults care. Because you can't expect like
18:19seven-year-old children to immediately spit out so many bombastic words, right? But actually,
18:25if you listen to their conversations, they in fact do understand what's happening in the world.
18:29It's just that they understand it in their way. So the truth is that a lot of youth people,
18:34they care so much. In fact, even for my own friend group, they love to talk about these things and
18:40we love to discuss about them, but we never get that chance to bring it to adults because we all
18:44have that fear that, oh, this adult will judge us or they will tell us that we're wrong and that this
18:48is the wrong way to think. Yeah. Which is why I get so encouraged when I look at how
18:54passionate young people are about climate action because this directly affects them. So they're
19:02fighting for their future and everything we've seen in terms of even internationally, how young
19:08people have been able to move the needle when it comes to climate action has been so inspiring to me.
19:15Clearly, climate action is something that you feel quite passionate about and your friends as well,
19:19I take it, Jessie. Yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, every day we see like all these things happening
19:25and it's like, when are we really going to be involved? Because yes, this is our future, but we
19:31will be the ones still having to solve these issues when it's not fixed now. Right, definitely.
19:37They inherited the problems that we created and they will need to deal with it. So rightly,
19:43they ask their space at the table and they're very articulated. Young people, they know much more
19:51about the climate than many adults and I'm so pleased in Malaysia. For example, I think in September,
19:59it was the famous, in the margins of ASEAN event, it was Lankavi declaration where young people said clearly
20:09to them, all the ministers, how, what they want, what future should look like. And, you know,
20:16don't forget that we always, you know, Jessie is very articulated. We are happy in Malaysia to have
20:22a very strong group of young people, but let's not forget to ask a refugee child, a migrant child,
20:28a child with disability, child because of the his or her own status is not going to the school, child who is
20:36in detention because of the status that he has. So in UNICEF, we say child is child no matter what.
20:42Yeah, definitely. You don't want to have any child being left behind and child rights apply to all,
20:49right? Yeah. Everyone at the all time. Sonia, can I ask you for next year for the CRC review,
20:57what are you expect? What is Malaysia expected to deliver by 2026?
21:03You mean the report? Yeah. Yeah. It's the Committee on the Rights of the Child. They prepare the list of
21:09the questions for Malaysian delegation and it will be more dialogue. So it will be the opportunity for
21:16Malaysian delegation to report on the progress on the child rights and some specific questions that
21:23they will be asked because the CRC is very comprehensive legal document. There is a lot of
21:27articles. I have to say that Malaysian delegation is preparing really diligently for the meeting,
21:37the dialogue in Geneva. We are also happy that we are trusted in this process to help them to present
21:44Malaysia. And there will be always the questions that answers still do not exist, right? There are many
21:52countries going through the same process, but this is the way that the CRC committee would like to help
21:59the government to really elevate the child rights in their respective countries. If I were to ask the
22:04both of you if there was anything in terms of child rights where you hope is given particular attention,
22:10so we get to see maybe the needle move in terms of progress on child rights. If there was one area,
22:16and I know there's so many that we could cover, that would it be enough hours in the day to be honest with
22:21you. But Jessie and Sonia. Jessie, if I may begin with you. I think the one thing that I would really
22:27like to be focused on is access to education and mental health because I feel like both of them
22:32coincide with each other, right? Because let's say if you don't get to go to school, then you don't get
22:37to make friends and that affects your mental health. But if your school system is horrible and they don't
22:42treat you right, then it affects your mental health as well. So if we focus on both of those things,
22:46I feel like we can really, you know, fix some issues that need to be focused on. Thank you.
22:51Saina? I would really like for Malaysia, and I think it's feasible to lift reservations to the CRC,
22:57especially article on non-discrimination. And this would also allow all children who are residing in
23:05Malaysia, free access to the education system. The second, I would really like to see that poverty is
23:14measured on a regular basis, child poverty, and taken into account, and this is on the way. Of course,
23:22mental health, climate, more budget, more funds for children practically, and alignment of the child
23:34protection system according to the international standards. For example, we still have in Malaysia
23:41social workforce that is not professionalized. So we would like really to see that social workforce is
23:48professionals like any other sectors. Could you very quickly elaborate what you mean in terms of
23:53measuring child poverty more regularly? It's to know what is the situation. Actually, to know who
24:00are the left behind, who are the poor among the poorest. Just to know data is the issue. And not only in
24:06Malaysia, it's everywhere. But if we address the data on many things, child poverty, children with
24:13disability, to have the baseline data in order to create action. Right. Well, there's so much we've
24:19covered today. And I want to thank you both for coming on the show and spotlighting some of these
24:24issues. And happy World Children's Day to you, both of you. Thank you so much for fighting for
24:28children's rights. Thank you. Thank you, Melissa. Happy World Children's Day to you as well. Happy World
24:33Children's Day. That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris,
24:38signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching, and good night.
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