- 6 weeks ago
The big talking point of this episode of News Today is the fresh escalation in the West Asia crisis. US President Donald Trump has reiterated the ceasefire is over, but said that the Iranians have sought to continue talks and Washington has agreed.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your primetime destination news.
00:05Newsmakers, talking points. Friday night, the big talking point.
00:08Is Donald Trump spoiling for another war?
00:12Is the ban on the film's subtlige an act of caution?
00:15Or is this repression by the state?
00:18We'll raise that issue of censorship of the OTT film that talks about the Punjab militancy
00:26and the forced disappearances also on the show.
00:31But first, as always, it's time for the Nine Headlines at Nine.
00:36U.S. President Donald Trump reiterates the ceasefire is over,
00:40but now says the Iranians have agreed for talks.
00:44Qatar also makes an attempt to revive the stalled talks as the world is on an edge.
00:52Amidst political fireworks, Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Vijay returns to Karoor,
00:57gets emotional while distributing job letters to stampede victim's kin.
01:02DMK slams TVK, says they are influencing the CBI probe.
01:09Heartbreaking tragedy from Bengaluru.
01:12A class 8 student dies by suicide after being scolded by a teacher.
01:16She left behind a note describing her humiliation.
01:22Debt toll due to landslide in Kerala's Vyanar dive rises now to seven.
01:27Kerala High Court orders immediate exgratia for victim's kin, free treatment for injured.
01:34Rains continue to wreak havoc in parts of Gujarat.
01:37Large-scale relief and restoration drive launched with 47 deaths.
01:41Surat, one of the worst-hit districts in the state.
01:46Amid probe into the donation scam, security measures tritened at the Ram Mandir.
01:5113 new CCTV cameras installed.
01:53Police deployed at various points between donation boxes and the counting area.
02:00Two days after his arrest, the SENA corporator Ramesh Matre
02:04sent to police custody till July 13th for assaulting doctors and nurses at a government hospital.
02:13Prime Minister Modi enters the last leg of his three-nation tour.
02:16Lands in New Zealand capital, Auckland meets Indian diaspora.
02:20Free trade deal on the agenda.
02:24And the Golden Booth race is heating up at the World Cup.
02:29Kylian Mbappe, Lionel Messi locked in with eight goals apiece
02:33after the Frenchman's super goal in the quarter-final takes his country to the semis.
02:49But the big story that we are breaking at the moment,
02:51Donald Trump has now said that the United States has told Iran the ceasefire is over.
02:58Trump says Iran has asked to continue talks.
03:01We have agreed.
03:03The Qatar delegation, meanwhile, is in Iran in a bid to revive the stalled talks.
03:07Qatari Prime Minister, Egyptian Foreign Minister have held meetings on the U.S.-Iran MOU.
03:14So the world remains on the edge with Donald Trump continuing to send mixed signals,
03:18saying the ceasefire is over, but that the talks will continue.
03:24That is our top focus because the world is, as I said, on the edge.
03:29Global markets are in a tizzy as U.S. and Iran have exchanged fire right through this week.
03:34In the last 12 hours, though, the firing has dialed down.
03:38The friction many experts believe is over who will control the Strait of Hormuz
03:43through which much of the world's oil flows.
03:47Here is tonight's top story.
03:49Will we see West Asia War 2.0?
03:53Or will the world be put on pause?
03:59Three weeks after Washington and Tehran signed the interim peace deal to end the war
04:04and reopen the Strait of Hormuz, that fragile truce is unraveling fast.
04:10Mediators like Qatar are working overtime to get the United States and Iran back on the negotiating table.
04:16The Strait of Hormuz is turning out to be the most contentious point in the MOU between the two nations.
04:23Fresh fighting broke out this week after Iran launched attacks on vessels not complying with its orders
04:28and America retaliated by bombing Iran.
04:31The exchange of fire prompted U.S. President Donald Trump to declare the truce is over.
04:36To me, I think it's over.
04:40I don't want to deal with them anymore.
04:41They're scum.
04:42You know what scum is?
04:43They're scum.
04:44They're sick people.
04:45They're led by sick people.
04:47And they're vicious, violent people.
04:50And if they had a nuclear weapon, they'd use it.
04:53As far as I'm concerned, it's over.
04:55Iran's military command has vowed a crushing response to what it calls U.S. aggression,
05:00insisting that only Iran-designated routes through Hormuz are safe passage.
05:05They're undetaliated by firing on Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait, triggering air defense alerts across the Gulf.
05:12According to U.S. media reports, Israel has passed Washington fresh intelligence on a new Iranian plot
05:18to assassinate Trump, deepening tensions just as the ceasefire buckles.
05:22Some U.S. officials suspect the Israeli report may partly be aimed at pushing Trump towards tougher military action against
05:29Iran.
05:30They're gone.
05:31Now they have another set of leaders.
05:32They may be gone.
05:33Who knows?
05:35And you know what?
05:36I may be gone too.
05:37Because I'm their number one target.
05:40It's out all over the place.
05:41I'm their number one.
05:42Because they're scum.
05:43That's the way they act.
05:44And that's the way they've done it for 47 years.
05:47But I'm doing what's right for the country.
05:49I'm doing really what's right for the world.
05:51They have to be stopped.
05:54Meanwhile, Iran's late Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei was laid to rest on Friday in the holy shrine of Imam Raza
06:00and Mashhad.
06:02Khamenei's eldest son Mustafa Khamenei led the prayers.
06:05The new Supreme Leader and Khamenei's other son Mojtaba did not take part in the funeral.
06:11Bureau Report, India Today.
06:15So the big question that we are asking at the top of the news today, is Donald Trump spoiling for
06:20another war now?
06:21Is this really a fight to control the Strait of Hormuz above all else?
06:26Brinkmanship by Donald Trump and Iran?
06:28Has the world been held to ransom by the U.S. versus Iran war rhetoric?
06:33That's the question I want to raise.
06:35Joining me now, Richard M. Sanders, ex-advisor, chief of staff of the U.S. Army.
06:39He is someone who's worked, therefore, very closely with the United States Army.
06:44Also joining me is General Mark Miley.
06:49He is a former member of the U.S. Department of State, Senior Foreign Service.
06:55Also joining me is Merzat Borujandi, Dean of College of Arts, Science and Education at Missouri University of Science and
07:06Technology.
07:07Thank you all very much for joining us on the show today.
07:11I want to come to you, Richard, first.
07:14What's your sense?
07:15Is Donald Trump sending out these big signals saying the ceasefire is over but talks will continue?
07:20Try and make sense of it for us.
07:24Well, I don't think that either country is exactly prepared to begin full-scale war.
07:32You have a real tug of war between the two countries right now.
07:36You have to go back to the Memorandum of Understanding to really see what this is all about.
07:44The Memorandum made it clear that Iran was obligated to facilitate transit through the Straits of Hormuz and that neither
07:55side was to engage in military action.
07:57And that seemed to be holding for a while.
08:00Ships were passing through and the price of oil was declining.
08:04However, Iran chose to attack tankers that were going by a southern route through the territory of the state of
08:14Oman.
08:15And I think what was behind that is Iran is very much interested in having complete control over the Straits
08:22of Hormuz.
08:25Even for ships that are transiting through what is not their territorial waters, but Omani territorial waters.
08:33The Iranian approach seems to be what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine, too.
08:38They made these attacks.
08:39There was a response.
08:41Then it was repeated.
08:42Now people are catching their breath.
08:44Some talks are beginning.
08:46At the same time, there's high, sharp rhetoric on all sides.
08:50American, Iranian, even Israeli as well.
08:53So we'll just have to see how it pans out for now.
08:57So you seem to be suggesting that Iran wants to control the state of Hormuz.
09:02And that is the source, according to you, of the conflict at the moment.
09:06There's a different viewpoint, of course, that Iran has.
09:08I'm joined also by Dr. Faudh Izzadi, Associate Professor, University of Tehran.
09:13You heard what Mr. Sanders said, Mr. Izzadi, that it's Iran which wants to control the state of Hormuz.
09:19That's where the conflict at the moment has been triggered.
09:23How fair a statement is that?
09:25Iran wants sole control of the state of Hormuz.
09:30Iran needs to have negotiations with Oman.
09:34Iran, we have two coastal states, Iran and Oman.
09:38United States is not a coastal state to a state of Hormuz.
09:42United States is 11,000 kilometers away.
09:45We don't live in the 19th century.
09:47You don't get to go to the other side of the world and push countries around.
09:53We have this conventional law of seas.
09:56Under conventional law of seas, you get to have 12 miles of territorial waters
10:02and 12 miles of contiguous zone, Article 33.
10:08And under UN Conventional Law of Seas, ships can pass through,
10:14but it should be innocent passage.
10:16Article 19 defines what innocent is.
10:19It means you are not supposed to be threatening the security of the coastal state.
10:24So the ships that were hit were in Iran's contiguous zone.
10:31No, but why were they fired upon?
10:33The fact is, why were they fired upon?
10:35Ironically, sir, I did my masters in the law of the sea.
10:41The law of the sea does not permit you to fire at vessels
10:44or to take control of the waterway in the way Iran wants.
10:48No, no, you need to go back, please, and read the text again.
10:53You know, you seem to have passed your classes many years ago.
10:58So reviewing those classes...
10:59No, on what basis is Iran firing at vessels?
11:02On what basis does Iran want to fire at vessels?
11:05Violation of Article 5 of the Memorandum of Understanding.
11:10These passages during the 60 days should be under Iranian arrangement.
11:16So the United States wants to control the state of Hormuz.
11:20They have created, they think, they are making a big mistake,
11:24they think they have created another route,
11:26and they are forcing ships to go through the American route.
11:31And that's a violation of Article 5.
11:34They have violated Article 1.
11:36They have threatened to attack Iran.
11:38Just a few minutes ago, Trump has said that the ceasefire is over.
11:42This MOU is supposed to last for 60 days.
11:45So we have another month or so before the ceasefire is over.
11:52Right.
11:52You know, the United States followed the MOU for about five hours
11:56because five hours after Trump signed the agreement,
12:00peak exit, Secretary of War, threatened to attack Iran.
12:03Iran, which is a violation of Article 1.
12:06So Iran is not going to be pushed around.
12:08I can assure you of that.
12:09I take your point.
12:10In fact, Mr. Sanders, before I come to you, Merzad,
12:13I just want to get you in, Mr. Sanders.
12:15We are showing pictures.
12:16The fact is, you know, it's not as if the Americans have not targeted Iranian boats.
12:20It's not as if Americans have not targeted Iranian facilities.
12:23Both in rhetoric and in targeting American facilities, rail lines have been targeted.
12:29What kind of a ceasefire is this, Mr. Sanders?
12:31You have a ceasefire and talks taking place, and yet the U.S. president is ratcheting up the rhetoric
12:37and has actually, the American forces have targeted Iranian boats as well as Iranian infrastructure.
12:46Well, I don't believe Iran is in a position to hold the entire global economy by the throat.
12:54They have signed an agreement, the Memorandum of Understanding,
12:58which calls upon them to facilitate transit.
13:01It does not grant them control.
13:03They may regret the fact that they signed it, but they did sign it,
13:07and they ought to comply with it.
13:11The right of innocent passage is long been established.
13:13Yeah, but the Memorandum of Understanding, Mr. Sanders, with due regard,
13:15the Memorandum of Understanding also does not allow United States to unilaterally target
13:20Iranian establishment and infrastructure.
13:27Unfortunately, they chose to ignore the terms of the Memorandum of Understanding.
13:33They targeted the ships, and the United States responded.
13:37That response was proportionate, and it was inevitable.
13:41So, therefore, we should not be surprised at it.
13:44But I would agree both sides need to call to chill out, to ratchet the rhetoric down,
13:51and see whether the situation can be salvaged.
13:53It is in nobody's interest to have this turn into a full-scale war.
13:58So, let's see whether the Qatari and Pakistani and Turkish and other mediators
14:03can find a way to get Iran to understand that it has to abide by the terms of what it
14:09agreed to.
14:10So, let me get in, Mehrzad Burujerdi.
14:14Mehrzad, you're hearing two very different views, and this is really where the problem lies.
14:18The gaping trust deficit, even in the wording of the Memorandum of Understanding,
14:23whether Iran was meant to facilitate the movement of vessels through the Strait of Hormuz or control them.
14:31What's your sense, given this gaping trust deficit?
14:34Do you believe the MOU is dead, or do you believe that there is still hope?
14:40Well, I think we are seeing the fragile nature of an ambiguously awarded MOU
14:46that is showing us its shortcomings, right?
14:50So, for example, the MOU talks about the right of navigation in the Strait of Hormuz,
14:55but doesn't really crystal clear define who is going to be in charge,
15:00who is going to be controlling that.
15:02And now we are seeing this politics of brinksmanship by both sides,
15:07you know, adopting an approach of tit for tat,
15:12because Iran is trying to, you know, assert its authority over the Strait of Hormuz
15:19and the passage of ships.
15:22And the United States is, of course, trying to undermine that
15:25by, you know, promoting this alternative route through the coastal waters of Oman.
15:31Now, and I think that's the gist of the conflict that we are seeing.
15:36But I don't think we need to exaggerate what is at stake.
15:40I think this is still within the threshold of pain for both sides,
15:44because both realize that going back to a full-fledged war does not make sense,
15:51is not going to serve the interest of either side.
15:54And I don't think, you know, we will end up in that situation.
15:58So, really, the ball is now in the court of all these, you know,
16:05mediators that are trying to, you know, bring the two sides closer to one another.
16:10And hopefully we will have cooler heads prevail and maybe come up with version two
16:17of that MOU that needs to be tightened up in terms of exactly what is meant.
16:23But you see, Merzah, the problem is even in that MOU, there is ambiguity,
16:27particularly over the nuclear question.
16:29There is ambiguity over, as we said, over the Strait of Hormuz.
16:34What kind of control will Iran exercise over it?
16:37Given all of that, do you believe it's possible for the two sides?
16:42You're still hopeful that the two sides will come to an agreement?
16:46Or is it only because you believe that war, West Asia War 2.0,
16:51is simply off the table at the moment?
16:54No, I think, you know, both sides realize.
16:56There is enough political sense, I think, on both sides and realistic assessment,
17:03despite the propaganda that each side engages in to depict the other as, you know, being in fault.
17:09But I think there is enough common sense to realize that a full-fledged conflict is not in the interest
17:16of anyone.
17:17Look, already we are seeing the price of oil go up.
17:20We are seeing the impact on the stock market.
17:22So, certainly, President Trump has to be worried about that.
17:26And for Iran, you know, just what happened yesterday,
17:30attacking even the northern provinces of the country, you know, the railroad system and so forth,
17:37is yet another painful reminder of the type of pain that the U.S. can cause by attacking Iran.
17:45You know, Dr. Izzani, it comes to that.
17:49Tehran is being aggressive, warning Israel, warning the United States.
17:54Isn't this a self-defeating strategy that risks turning the temporary sanction relief
18:00that you've got once again into permanent isolation and deeper economic collapse
18:05that Tehran also needs to dial down?
18:08You know, it's not just Donald Trump who needs to dial down, and he does,
18:12but so does Tehran.
18:15Yes, and I think this is why you had the MOU.
18:19Iranian officials wanted to avoid the continuation of the war,
18:25attacking other countries, killing their leaders, attacking schools, attacking hospitals.
18:31You know, Dr. Burujerdi referred to U.S. attacking raid roads.
18:36We had millions of people going to the funeral of the leader of the country,
18:42and they attacked the railroad that was reaching that city,
18:46was going to Mashhad, the city on northeast of Tehran.
18:50So we are dealing with war criminals.
18:52We are dealing with people who have violated the agreement since day one,
18:57and Iran is doing Article 51 of the UN Charter.
19:02When a country is attacked, that country has the responsibility and the right to defend itself.
19:09And putting both sides on the same page would not be a very good idea,
19:15because Iran is the victim of the Epstein class.
19:18We have the Israelis that need to have some sort of a military confrontation.
19:24Netanyahu is running for elections in October, and he wants war.
19:28He is avoiding his court appearances, arguing that there is an state of emergency,
19:33and he needs to have war to win elections.
19:36And the United States, Trump, instead of doing America first, is doing Israel first,
19:41because he is providing soldiers for Netanyahu to fight his wars against Iran.
19:47So we are dealing with people who want to take over Iranian oil,
19:51and this is not the analysis of an Iranian professor.
19:54This is what Trump said just a couple of months ago.
19:57And those millions of people who showed up in the streets,
20:01they are not going to allow their oil to be taken.
20:04You know, it comes down to that, Richard Sanders, in conclusion,
20:08that Donald Trump perhaps overextended himself.
20:10He thought that this would be a quick war.
20:13It didn't quite work out.
20:14The MOU is seen by many to be concessionary,
20:19and Donald Trump doesn't like to be seen to be concessionary.
20:22Hence, he ratchets up the rhetoric.
20:24This is Donald Trump's rhetoric,
20:26which is not going to match the reality on the ground,
20:29because America can also not afford another escalating conflict.
20:33Do you believe that's perhaps the right way to look at it,
20:36that we need to look beyond the rhetoric?
20:39And the reality is that neither country at the moment,
20:42including the United States, the so-called mighty United States,
20:46even in an asymmetric war, cannot afford another conflict.
20:53Well, I would certainly agree with you
20:55that diplomacy by microphone can only take you so far.
21:00They have to get into the conference room and see what can be done.
21:03It is consistent with international law,
21:07consistent with the agreements that were already reached.
21:09It is, I agree, not in people's interest to go back
21:12to a larger, more intense conflict.
21:15But at the same time, I don't think we can regard
21:19the Straits of Hormuz as somehow Iran's spoils of war.
21:23I think we need to get way past that and come up with pragmatic solutions.
21:30Mehrzad, you want to get a final word in?
21:32Do you believe that Iran will never give up now?
21:35They've almost weaponized the Straits of Hormuz.
21:38Do you believe they'll continue to do so?
21:41Well, I think Iran will use this card of the Straits of Hormuz
21:46now and into the future as a bargaining chip, for sure.
21:52This war demonstrated the value of a Straits of Hormuz.
21:55We could see the damage that Iran could cause to the global economy.
22:00And therefore, I think, realistically speaking,
22:03this is certainly at the back of their minds,
22:06and it's a card that they are going to use.
22:08And yet, if I was in the shoes of the Iranian leaders,
22:12I also need to counter that with the following.
22:16How much do I gain by charging passage fees on ships
22:23vis-a-vis what I can gain by the release of the frozen assets,
22:29by the lifting of sanctions?
22:30I personally believe that the latter is going to be
22:34much more advantageous to Iran in the long term, right?
22:38I mean, just think about the global oil trade, etc., etc.
22:41So, while this is a card for negotiation as a bargaining chip,
22:46I can certainly make sense of that.
22:48I think we should not lose sight of the larger picture
22:50about why reaching a more sustained peace deal here
22:56could be advantageous to Iran as well.
23:00Fascinating to hear three fine voices speak on the issue.
23:04And I appreciate all of you taking the time off,
23:07because as I said, the world is on the edge.
23:09We need to dial down, hopefully Donald Trump needs to dial down,
23:13as does the Iranian leadership.
23:15Thank you all very much for joining me.
23:17I want to turn from the big global story
23:20to the big story back home.
23:21The top national story comes from Karoor today in Tamil Nadu,
23:25where for the families of the 41 people
23:27who died in the Karoor stampede last year,
23:30time may have moved on, but the pain hasn't.
23:33Finally today, nine months later,
23:36Chief Minister Vijay returned to Karoor
23:38to offer condolences, announce a memorial,
23:41and meet the bereaved.
23:43But the visit has also triggered a fresh political slugfest.
23:48Take a look at Karoor politics.
24:04Nine months ago, Karoor was rocked by a tragedy.
24:13A stampede claimed 41 innocent lives,
24:19leaving behind grieving families and unanswered questions.
24:32The victims had gone to see their cinema idol
24:34and newly launched politician, Talapati Vijay,
24:38who had called a public rally.
24:46On Friday, Joseph Vijay,
24:48now the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu,
24:50returned to Karoor
24:51to stand with those who lost their loved ones.
24:57Dressed in all black as a mark of mourning,
25:00Vijay paid tribute to the victims
25:02of the September 2025 tragedy.
25:06The TVK announced a memorial in honour of those
25:09who never returned home.
25:37But the visit also turned political.
25:41CM Vijay hit out at the DMK over the tragedy.
26:13The
26:28Away from the political rhetoric, Vijay met the families who have spent the last nine
26:34months learning to live with an irreplaceable loss.
26:38The biggest talking point of the visit, however, was the government's decision to hand over
26:43job appointment letters to the families of 32 stampede victims.
27:01Politics may dominate the headlines, but the biggest question still remains unanswered.
27:06Who was responsible for the tragedy that claimed 41 innocent lives?
27:14With Pramod Madhav, Anagakeshav and Apoorvajai Chandran, Bureau Report, India Today.
27:27Okay, let's from there turn to the controversy of the day and our face-off.
27:32This over the film Satlaj, which is no longer just anymore about a film.
27:37What began as a dispute over its release on OTT has now snowballed into a political showdown
27:43in Punjab, which goes to the polls early next year.
27:46Screenings of the film are continuing at Gurdwara's.
27:50Pirated versions are being watched by people across the state.
27:54This over a film that brings back the dark chapters of Punjab's militancy years, particularly
28:01in the early 1990s.
28:03Political parties taking sharply opposing positions, reviving old debates.
28:09Censorship and free speech also at stake.
28:13Take a look at our report first.
28:27Satlaj, a film blocked by the censor board and taken off OTT, is fast becoming the biggest
28:32political flashpoint in Punjab, which is going to polls next year.
28:40The movie, based on the life of human rights activist Jasvan Singh Khaldra and covers the
28:45turbulent period of terrorism and extrajudicial killings in the state, is being screened at
28:49Gurdwara's across the state.
28:54The Shiromani Gurdwara Prabant Committee, which manages Sikh places of worship, is staging protests
29:00against the ban.
29:01The Shiromani Akali Dal has come out in support of the movie.
29:06The Shiromani Akali Dal's basic stand is that any film, which is based on the historical facts, which is based
29:22on the historical facts.
29:42The Shiromani Akali Dal, the ruling party in the state has targeted the BGP and the Akali Dal.
30:06The Congress has denounced the restrictions.
30:11Meanwhile, Union Minister and BGP leader Avrit Singh Bittu posted news reports of terrorist attacks in Punjab,
30:17reminding people of the killings of civilians by Khalistani separatists.
30:22The Shiromani Akali Dal, the Shiromani Akali Dal, the Shiromani Akali Dal.
30:50Punjab endured unimaginable pain and suffering during the 80s and the early 90s,
30:55a period when separatists backed by Pakistan unleashed terror and the police launched an operation to crush terrorism.
31:02The ban on the movie, which refers to that dark period, has triggered a fresh debate on free speech and
31:08human rights.
31:11Bureau Report, India Today.
31:16Let's raise the big question.
31:18The ban on an OTT film like Sutlej about Punjab militant years, is the ban justified?
31:24Is telling the dark truths of Punjab a threat to national security all these years later?
31:30Is censorship anti-democracy?
31:32Just some of the questions I want to pose.
31:37And joining us now on the Sutlej debate, Karanbir Singh Sidhu IAS and former special chief secretary Punjab
31:45and Justice Ranjit Singh, former judge Punjab and Haryana High Court.
31:49Good to have both of you on the show.
31:51Justice, I want to come to you first because while banning the film, although they haven't officially released a statement,
32:00it is believed that the ruling establishment at the center fears that the film could affect national security
32:07and be weaponized by anti-India forces because it deals with a particularly dark period in Punjab
32:14when separatism and militancy was on the rise.
32:17Do you believe that those arguments hold that these kind of sensitive films should be censored and not shown?
32:25I don't agree with this proposition.
32:29This is totally absurd to think that reality is shown of the actual happening of those bad times
32:38and those dark times or dark period would lead to any disturbance of any situation like in Punjab.
32:47But the reason why it is seen as perhaps so sensitive is because it is tracking the disappearance of hundreds
32:55of people at the time.
32:57The Punjab police was in the dock.
32:59The likes of KPS Gill were accused of extrajudicial killings.
33:03So, while it highlights that aspect, the argument is what about the hundreds of people who were killed
33:11by Sikh militants and Khalistani separatists at the time.
33:15So, in a film like this, you need to be more sensitive to all kinds of concerns.
33:21Do you agree?
33:22I do not agree with this.
33:25Now, there is a difference between the state police and the normal criminal.
33:30If some crime has been committed by someone, then police doesn't get any right to eliminate him in the manner
33:38they want.
33:39If this method is left in the hands of the police, then what is the difference between a lawbreaker and
33:47a police?
33:48So, are you saying telling the story of the human rights violations that took place at the time will not
33:55reignite a sense of anger and grievance
33:58among a large section of the Sikh community and thereby, as some claim, will only enhance and enlarge the separatist
34:07mindset?
34:10Raj, this fact is well known in this part of our country as to what happened to Jaswant Singh Khalraji
34:17and what was his role in unearthing the number of bodies which were cremated as unclaimed.
34:28Now, this fact is well known, and it is well documented in the two judgments of a trial court as
34:34well as the high court,
34:35when the conviction of those persons were upheld and life imprisonment is opposed to them.
34:40Now, if this fact is well documented in the judgments of the two courts, then what is there to hide
34:48in it?
34:48It is that judgments are documents which are available in a public domain.
34:54And if the picture, if the movie depicts that reality of that time as to what happened to Jaswant Singh
35:02Khalra,
35:03I think people have a right to know, as least this generation has a right to know that what happened
35:09during those bad times.
35:10Each generation has the right to know what happened in the dark times.
35:14Karan B. Singh, Sidhu, do you agree with that, that the generation, why hide the truth?
35:19Why should a self-confident new India be so paranoid about what happened all those years ago, more than 30
35:29years ago?
35:31Rajdeep, first of all, thanks for inviting me.
35:33Let's start with the preliminary kind of assertive statement that no kind of encounter, fake encounter, mysterious disappearance,
35:44extrajudicial killing or execution was justified in the eyes of law or the constitution then, and nor is it justified
35:51now.
35:52In so far as the specific case is concerned, which the movie presents, which is the abduction and ultimate elimination
36:01of Paijaswan Singh Jikharra,
36:03who was a mainstream political party's general secretary in charge of the human rights wing, namely the Sharomani Akhali Dal.
36:10So, the script, as far as that is concerned, follows the trial court, the high court rejecting their appeals and
36:18ultimately life sentence to six Punjab police officials.
36:22I speak with a personal perspective that I was the deputy commissioner, the district magistrate of Amrishar,
36:29which then included Tarantaran district from 1992 to 1996.
36:35And before that, two years, I was additional deputy commissioner of development, which was not having much to do with
36:40the law and order,
36:41but we were coordinating with the panchayats and so on.
36:44Now, to fix the thing and to have a context, on 31st August 1995,
36:52Biyan Singh, the chief minister, sitting chief minister, is assassinated in a bomb blast outside the Punjab civil secretariat.
36:58Exactly six days after, and at that time, Harjaran Singh Barad had been sworn in as the next chief minister,
37:06Paijaswan Singh Khada was abducted from his residence in broad daylight, 9 a.m. or so,
37:12opposite Gurinderam University, Namrissa.
37:15And they were purportedly plainclothes.
37:17Someone was saying, police, we don't know who's there.
37:20So, that morning, a deputation of people, they came to me as the district magistrate.
37:26And my first port of call was the SSP Amrishar.
37:30And he said, the gentleman is neither wanted by us, and nor we have picked him up.
37:34And therefore, I picked up the phone and tried to reach out.
37:38Those were the days before the mobile phones were in,
37:41to SSP Ajit Singh Sandhu, SSP Tarantaran, Amrishar Revenue District,
37:46then comprised of three police districts, SSP Tarantaran, Amrishar,
37:50and, of course, what is called Majitha then, and Amrishar Rural.
37:54So, he was not available on the wireless message.
37:57It was said, he's in the field, he'll revert back to you,
38:00which he did the next day, to say that, you know,
38:03the gentleman is neither in our custody, and nor do we want him in any case.
38:08Right. So, in the meantime, I had ordered a magisterial inquiry
38:12at the level of additional district magistrate.
38:14Now, to place in context, while Pai Kharada was very much alive and active,
38:20his case of these unidentified cremations was pending in the Supreme Court of India
38:25before the bench of Justice Kuldeep Singh.
38:28It is on record here that his writ petition had been dismissed by Punjab and Harayana High Court
38:33to say it is too vague, you please give us specific instance and we look into it.
38:38Are you in habeas corpus, PIL, and so on?
38:40But this particular petition was pending there,
38:43and obviously, the wife of Mr. Kharada and also Sridhar Gurchal Singh Toda,
38:50the sitting, then-sitting president of SGPC,
38:53the, you know, center of telegrams and so on,
38:55and by November, and in the meantime, there was no sign of Mr. Kharada,
38:59by November, middle of November, the same year, that is 1995,
39:06the Honourable Supreme Court was, you know, pleased to order a CBI investigation as a regular case.
39:13So, CBI took over the investigation and various things,
39:17and I also appeared as a witness before the CBI.
39:21What's the point, sir?
39:23But what I'm trying to say is that ultimately, the conviction was upheld,
39:28and while the Supreme Court upheld the conviction, which came much later,
39:35the conviction came in the year 2005,
39:38then, of course, High Court and Supreme Court upholding,
39:42as regards the question of the unidentified bodies,
39:45it referred the matter to the Human Rights Commission,
39:48where the whole issue became more in nature of giving relief and compensation to those people.
39:56So, this figure of 2096 is in the official figures as unidentified relations
40:02took place over these two decades in Amrissar and Tarantaran.
40:06And, of course, the police version at that time, and even now,
40:10is that, you know, there was an encounter,
40:13we were fired upon, and these guys were killed,
40:16and we had a post-mortem examination,
40:19no one came to claim the body,
40:21and therefore, we have cremated in accordance with the law,
40:24but we are not disposed of...
40:25No, no, but what is your view?
40:26Therefore, should all of this be put out in the public domain or not today?
40:30I am very clear about it.
40:32Should Just One Singh Karanar's story be told to the public of today or not?
40:36Yes, Rajatik, my view is very clear that the story is true,
40:39but the truth is only focused on a particular aspect and on a particular case
40:47which focuses on the abduction and death and the murder of Pai Khalada.
40:54So, to that extent, one cannot find any fault as if there's some literary license.
40:59Right.
41:01But once you represent this,
41:03and having now seen the pirated version of the movie subsequently,
41:07I can say that even I have lived through that,
41:10and one feels after seeing the movie,
41:14that the impression which is created as if the state of India...
41:18Now, politics will say, you know, Congress government was there,
41:20Narasimara was there, and so on and so forth,
41:22President Rultha and all that.
41:24The impression which a youngster who was born after 84 or a little before that
41:29in Punjab or Hindu, or even a well-educated person in any other part of the country
41:35will go with the impression,
41:37because the selective focus is on one aspect,
41:40and he'll go with the impression very clearly
41:42that the state of India, the Indian state,
41:46was using the police, the paramilitary forces,
41:50for the purpose of a calculated genocide against Sikh youth, especially in India.
41:55So, what would you have liked to see?
41:57You're telling me you would have preferred to see also
42:00the action that the terrorists took at the time,
42:03that the context should be given.
42:05That's your claim, right?
42:06That you can't just show it...
42:08Rajdeep, my view is very simple,
42:10that if it is 2 hours and 43 minutes,
42:12so it is, if I'm not wrong with my calculation,
42:16163 minutes, at least, if not 10%, 5%,
42:208 minutes, that rails in Ferozpur-Kudhyana section to...
42:28No, but would it affect...
42:30Would a film, showing a film like this,
42:33affect national security?
42:34Would it be weaponized by anti-India forces?
42:37Do you believe that would happen?
42:40Sir, what I would like to say is that definitely
42:42anti-India forces would say,
42:43here your government has allowed this movie to be freely screened,
42:46and it is in the context that the censor board
42:49had recommended, rather directed, 120 plus cuts,
42:53which the producers or the director never imposed,
42:57and rather they went to the Bombay High Court
42:59to seek relief, which they did not get,
43:01and they ultimately withdrew that,
43:03and then, of course, there's a regulatory gap
43:05that on OTT platforms you self-certify
43:07and, you know, you present it.
43:09Now, if there is a formal, let us say,
43:11OK or a green signal, and still now
43:13we are in ambiguous terrain once again,
43:16the anti-India forces,
43:18whosoever microscopic,
43:20within India and abroad would say,
43:22Dekhye, aapki government ne yese chalne diya hai,
43:24yese sach ho ga.
43:25And where people believe in WhatsApp forwards
43:28without any application of mind,
43:30at least some people would be swayed.
43:32OK, I take your point.
43:35You're expressing your concerns that the film,
43:38you believe, has a one-sided version
43:40of an extremely complex issue
43:43and an extremely complex chapter
43:46in Punjab's history.
43:48Justice Ranjit Singh, you want to respond?
43:51That here you're hearing a senior IIS officer
43:53saying, look, you cannot only show once.
43:56I remember Punjab goes to the polls also,
43:58Justice Singh, in a few months from now.
44:00In the backdrop of that,
44:02would a film like this
44:03only further perhaps polarize society?
44:07Left to me,
44:09let there be a people commission
44:11and know what all excesses was committed
44:13by the police in Punjab during those days.
44:18The Kalana murder case,
44:22Kalana extrajudicial killing was there.
44:26KPS Guild was responsible
44:27and should have been charge-cheated for that.
44:30He was left out.
44:32I do not accept this bureaucratic approach.
44:35Those who had the helm of affair
44:37would try to justify the excesses committed by police.
44:42Now, if you go into the background...
44:44Yeah, but there are those who will also
44:44turn around justice and say that KPS Guild
44:47was the one who smashed militancy in Punjab.
44:50So, he is both seen as a hero by many
44:52and by a villainous, by others.
44:55So, I mean...
44:56The way the militancy was controlled,
45:00it was not expected.
45:03You killed 20,000 over people
45:07and then you said you have controlled the situation?
45:10You lose your chief minister.
45:13In the bargain, you lose your chief minister.
45:15You could not protect your chief minister in the state.
45:17And still you say the KPS Guild controls the situation?
45:21This bureaucratic approach is not acceptable
45:24to the people of Punjab.
45:26Let the people of Punjab know the reality
45:29and the police successes of this Ajit Singh Sandhu
45:32who was such a cruel person.
45:35He has killed the child...
45:37A few months or a few years old child.
45:41Yeah, but the terrorists also killed a lot of innocents,
45:43Justice Ranjit Singh, with due regard.
45:46The terrorists also killed a lot of innocent people.
45:49Now, even if you justify this,
45:53then what is the difference between police and the terrorists?
45:56Then the terrorism is justified
45:58if police also adopt that terrorist method.
46:00Then you mean that the terrorists are justified
46:03in adopting that method.
46:05This is the difference between the police
46:07and the normal...
46:08And you don't think it will have any impact
46:11on the psyche of the average person
46:13who was born post-1995?
46:15That that person will not come out of the cinema
46:18hating the Indian state and the Punjab police?
46:24I agree to an extent, yes, that may be the situation.
46:28But was this the method adopted by the police
46:31to control the situation?
46:32Then how...
46:34They could not control...
46:36They even could not achieve their chief minister.
46:38Okay.
46:39What is the achievement of a police?
46:40And the person who we are going to defend
46:44and bureaucracy is going to defend
46:46ultimately committed suicide.
46:49Okay.
46:49Because he was so frustrated.
46:51Okay.
46:52I take your point.
46:52You're saying that in any case,
46:54your initial comments were dark chapters.
46:56Rajdeep said the side...
46:57You cannot erase...
46:58We cannot equate action of a normal person
47:02who violates law and that of a police
47:04which is required to control the situation
47:07in a lawful and a legal manner.
47:09They cannot adopt extra constitutional manner
47:12or unconstitutional manner
47:13to control whatever the situation may be.
47:16I take your point.
47:17However, when it becomes a cinematic experience,
47:20should that be shared with people?
47:21I'll give you a quick final word there, Mr. Siddhu.
47:25Give me a quick final word.
47:27In your view, would...
47:29And the film is already pirated.
47:30You've seen pirated versions.
47:32It's all over Punjab.
47:33You know, when you censor a film,
47:35when bureaucrats decide
47:36they're going to censor a film,
47:37actually people see it more.
47:39Do you believe that was the right thing to do
47:42for the government to say,
47:43we're not going to show the film?
47:45Because now it's being seen
47:46in every village in Punjab.
47:47A quick answer.
47:49First of all, I'm not here to depend
47:51either on the different KPS Gill
47:53or Mr. Ajit Singh Sandhu.
47:56Both of them are not in this world.
47:57Let me be very clear.
47:59Now, the broader picture,
48:01as I've told you,
48:02in those two decades of 1980s and 1990s,
48:0520 years,
48:06you had 12,000 innocent civilians being killed,
48:09including Hindus and Muslims.
48:121784, police officers,
48:14including two DIGs in live encounters
48:16and three, four SSPs in discharge
48:18of their duties being killed.
48:20And there is also a figure of 8,000 militants
48:24or terrorists being killed.
48:25Now, the police version there,
48:28and I'm not defending it,
48:30but that is the reality
48:31that we were going in for operation.
48:33We had information
48:34and we asked those people to surrender.
48:36They didn't, rather they fired on us.
48:37And my SSP was hurt.
48:39A bullet went through his belly
48:41and therefore we retaliated.
48:43What new process of law
48:45could have been followed
48:46when you are being fired upon this?
48:49People on both sides suffer damages.
48:51Now, here, Punjab has healed.
48:53We've seen Blue Star.
48:55We've seen the Delhi riots.
48:57We've seen worse things.
48:58Justice Ranjit Singh
48:59headed a commission of inquiry
49:00in the firing
49:01at two most egregious incidents
49:04connected with Sacrilegion 2015,
49:07where even still the process of law
49:09in terms of charge heat
49:10has not begun,
49:11in spite of his clear recommendation.
49:13So, but what I would say,
49:14the Punjab needs to heal.
49:16And this is not to scratch those wounds.
49:19If you want to have
49:20the truth commission,
49:20please do so.
49:21And tomorrow,
49:22have it for the Blue Star also.
49:24Have it for the Delhi riots group.
49:25So, you're saying...
49:26Otherwise, this is not going
49:27to help Punjab.
49:28I take your point.
49:29You're saying this is not the way
49:31that you will heal wounds.
49:32We will thrive.
49:32We will survive.
49:33Okay.
49:34Let's leave it there.
49:35As I said,
49:36we've got two different perspectives on this.
49:39And I appreciate both of you
49:41joining us on an extremely sensitive issue.
49:43The fact at the end of the day
49:45is you would expect that
49:48democracy is deriving their strength in a way
49:51not by removing or erasing
49:54these ugly truths,
49:55but as the Indian Express puts it,
49:58by examining them fully and honestly.
50:01And maybe we need to confront
50:03the dark truths of the past
50:05and then move ahead.
50:07Thank you both very much, though,
50:08for joining me here
50:09on the show today.
50:14Okay.
50:15Should a film like Satlej be banned?
50:17What are you saying?
50:18Your response is Parag Hede says,
50:20no film should be banned.
50:21Let public watch and decide.
50:23A banned film gets more publicity
50:24and public decides to watch it
50:26only because it has been banned.
50:28Akshay says,
50:28no film should be banned
50:29if it reveals truth about incidents
50:31related to exploitation
50:33or welfare or public involved.
50:35Don't forget,
50:36Kerala's story,
50:37not banned,
50:39even though it was seen
50:40to be provocative
50:41and seen by many people
50:43only to spur communal divide.
50:45Can't have different rules.
50:49Okay, let's turn to tonight's
50:51Get Real India story,
50:52where after months of uncertainty
50:54and separation,
50:55a family in West Bengal
50:56has finally been reunited.
50:59Danish Sheikh,
51:00who was wrongly deported
51:01to Bangladesh last year,
51:03has returned home
51:04and met his newborn son
51:05for the first time.
51:07His return came
51:07only after legal intervention
51:09and a long wait
51:11for his family.
51:12Tonight's
51:12Get Real India story.
51:23Danish Sheikh meets
51:25his newborn son
51:26for the first time
51:27after months' long wait.
51:30Dhanish,
51:30his pregnant wife,
51:31Sonali,
51:32and eight-year-old son
51:33were picked up from Delhi
51:34on suspicion
51:35of being illegal migrants
51:37and deported
51:38to Bangladesh last year.
51:42Sonali and their son
51:43returned in December
51:44after the Supreme Court's intervention.
51:46She gave birth
51:47to her second child
51:48in January.
51:52Danish was handed over
51:54by Border Guard Bangladesh
51:56on Tuesday
51:56at the Mahadipur border
51:58checkpost
51:59in Malta district.
52:13Dhanish's neighbours,
52:14Sweety Bibi,
52:15and children
52:16were also deported
52:18back then.
52:19All were arrested
52:20by Bangladeshi authorities.
52:23Sweety Bibi
52:24and kids
52:25are also back.
52:47All of them
52:48have returned
52:48to their homes
52:49in Paikar village
52:50in Beerbhum district.
52:53With Inderjeet Kundu,
52:55Bureau Report,
52:56India Today.
53:02Tragic story there
53:03with a hopefully
53:04a happy ending.
53:05Let me leave you though
53:06with something
53:07that has grabbed
53:08the attention of the world
53:09for the last,
53:10what,
53:11month now almost.
53:12Two icons of the game,
53:13one glittering prize.
53:15Who's going to get
53:16the golden boot
53:17at the World Cup football?
53:19Lionel Messi,
53:19the all-time great,
53:21or Kylian Mbappe,
53:22the Gen Next star,
53:24locked at eight goals apiece
53:25in the race
53:26for the golden boot
53:27with the quarter-finals
53:28only sharpening
53:30the rivalry.
53:31Here's the story
53:32of a duel
53:33that's gripped
53:34this tournament.
53:41Eight goals apiece
53:43on the biggest stage
53:44in world football
53:45and two superstars
53:47refusing to let
53:49the other pull clear.
53:52In the World Cup's
53:54most-watched individual battle,
53:56Lionel Messi
53:57and Kylian Mbappe
53:59are in a deadlock.
54:02Messi set the tone
54:04from day one
54:05with a hat-trick
54:06against Algeria.
54:09The defending world champion
54:11hasn't stopped since then,
54:13scoring in each match
54:15for Argentina
54:16in this World Cup.
54:20but Mbappe never stopped
54:23chasing the great
54:24Leo Messi.
54:28He too has been
54:30in imperious form,
54:31scoring goals
54:32on a consistent basis.
54:34The strike
54:35that pulled him level
54:36came in the all-important
54:38quarter-final
54:39against Morocco.
54:44On goals,
54:46they're tied.
54:47But FIFA's
54:48tiebreaker
54:48currently favours
54:49Mbappe
54:50as he's got
54:51three assists
54:52to Messi's one.
54:56And there's more.
54:57Messi's all-time
54:58World Cup tally
54:59sits at 21
55:00but within touching distance
55:02is the Frenchman
55:04with 20 goals.
55:06Messi gets his next chance
55:08to pull away
55:09when Argentina
55:10faced Switzerland
55:11in the quarter-finals.
55:14One has never won
55:15the golden boot,
55:16the other
55:17is defending it.
55:19With only a few games
55:21to go,
55:22football's biggest
55:23individual prize
55:24could still swing
55:25either way.
55:28Sports Bureau,
55:30India Today.
55:34Messi versus Mbappe,
55:37you take your pick
55:38I'm just about done
55:39and ready for the weekend
55:41but I want to leave you
55:41with our image
55:42of the day.
55:43Prime Minister Modi
55:44visiting the iconic
55:46Melbourne cricket ground
55:47accompanied by Australian
55:48Prime Minister
55:49Anthony Albanese.
55:51Prime Minister Modi
55:52signing the jerseys
55:53of young cricketers
55:54during his visit
55:55to the MCG
55:56and guess what?
55:57The Big Bash League
55:58of Australia,
55:59their version of the IPL
56:01could well have
56:01its inauguration
56:02this time
56:03or inaugural match
56:04this time
56:05in Chennai.
56:06Clearly cricket
56:07is the way
56:08to the hearts
56:09of Indians
56:10and Australians.
56:12We leave you
56:13with that image.
56:14Thanks for watching.
56:15You stay well,
56:16stay safe.
56:18Good night.
56:19Jai Hind.
56:19Namaskar.
56:24Namaskar.
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